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Israel agrees to east some West Bank restrictions: Blair

ADAM ENTOUS

Reuters

Latest comment posted at 12:46 PM EDT 13/05/08

Measures intended to boost Israeli-Palestinian peace talks that have shown little sign of progress ...Read the full article

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  1. Ted Andrews from Canada writes:
    Every concession is demanded of the PA because all that matters is Israel's 'security'.
    The security of Palestinians suffering under a brutal military forty year old occupation is of no concern.

    The 'peace process' is a total fraud.
    Israel has the power and wants the resources of the West Bank.
    There will be no viable, independent and contiguous Palestinian state as this does not fit the needs of Israel or its supporter the USA.

    The zionist ethnic cleansing of 1947-48 continues today.
    As long as the USA continues to support Israel without question for geopolitical and geostrategic reasons in this region of the world which contains the largest known reserves of easily exploitable energy there will be no peace or state for the Palestinians.
  2. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: What of the peace talks? Any news?
  3. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Elsewhere in the globe today you can read about a letter by Albert Einstein being auctioned off; it discusses organized religion.
    He describes religions as 'childish' and 'primitive' myths, and of his own (Jewish) people and religion said 'As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them'.
    Protected by a 'lack of power'. Those days are long gone, now that the Jewish state has the immense power it does - the question is, can it use this power wisely and humanely? Clearly it is struggling in this regard.
  4. Khalid Rahim from Canada writes: Both Israeli and Palestinian leaders of Fatah and Hamas should read the Tale of the Fox and the Stork in Aesop Fables. They will learn about their own behavior, when it comes to peace talks.
  5. K St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: Seawage- Justice is due every human being, without condition. Those who put conditions on something which is god given do so for immoral, evil purposes. Fact is Israel needs the threat of terrorism to maintain the social welfare from states like the US to keep their country viable. Without it, and annexation of Palestinian lands, they would collapse. That is the only explanation that makes sense. That is the only reason there will never be peace there. The same people who assassinated Rabin are stopping peace now. Time to get the fundies out, moderates in. If they, both sides, cannot then an intrl natl body should do it for them. This situation is ridiculous and more and more is becoming obvious that it is contrived.
  6. Flinton Rice from Toronto, Canada writes: Byron - I didn't know that the article was about the legitimacy of any religion - I thought it was about removal of roadblocks. Also, Einstein was a scientist not a Religious Critic. I really wouldn't care what he says about anything other than physics - the same way that I don't care what the Catholic Church says about physics. Also Ted, how is it possible to have an ethnic cleansing if the number of Palestinians has quadrupled in the past 40 years? If you looked at population growth, it would seem that Jews are being ethnically cleansed.

    I agree that the roadblocks need to go and that they need to develop the Palestinian economy. Obviously, this seems much more probable in the West Bank than in Gaza but the Israelis should work to show real results in the West Bank to help boost Fatah. I won't be surprised however if greater autonomy leads to greater strife and conflict - the hand back of Gaza (in hope of peace) seemed to have been one of the worst developments of any Isr-Pal peace effort. I think the idea of slow restoration and development is truly the only option at this point.
  7. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Sewage - you come across as extreme or more extreme than the other posters, whom you label 'screwball' - and you want to whip them with 'wet leather'? Huh?
    Perhaps the lowest common denominator in that region is violence and oppression, and Israel is slightly better than the rest. That still isn't saying much, is it? You're in effect saying that criticisms of Israel are invalid, because it's neighbors are even worse.....

    Don't forget that Iraq was invaded in 2003, Lebanon suffered a full-scale invasion 2 years ago and Iran is facing tough economic sanctions. Hardly consequence-free. All that's being asked of Israel today is that it stop obstructing the formation of the Palestinian state - it had a solid proposal in 2002 in the API, which it rejected. Now here we are in 2008 with no end in sight.

    Israel shares the blame for this mess with its neighbors, whether you can accept it or not.
  8. K St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: Paul Jones- That was the fastest pulled post I have ever seen!! It was very true though. If we really want to have peace then total embargo on both sides till they come up with a solution.
  9. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: I'm surprised G&M opened this topic up for discussion. Apparently we're supposed to discuss the enormous concession the Israelis have just offerred the Palis -- possibly closing 50 roadblocks out of 600! Eureka.

    Elsewhere in the news the G&M picked up a great story last week about the Israeli ambassador busy telling Canadians which way they should vote. Apparently he didn't like any of our muslim reps however Jewish MPs apparently made the cut. I really felt like saying something but apparently the G&M didn't want to hear it. Good thing we have freedom of the Press!
  10. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Flinton Rice - Yes, the article was about roadblocks, I mentioned the Einstein article because it happens to be in the same publication and is relevant to the question of the behavior of the Jewish state. I'm sure you can understand the connection.

    Einstein is well known for his humanitarian and philosophical ideas, do you consider his opinion less valuable than Ehud Barak's or Mahmoud Abbas, for example? If so, why?

    Your attempt to dismiss ethnic cleansing is flimsy, for a simple reason: Israel's behavior, now accepted by legitimate Israeli historians, falls well within the description of ethnic cleansing - 'ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of an 'undesirable' population from a given territory due to religious or ethnic discrimination, political, strategic or ideological considerations, or a combination of these' Andrew Bell-Fialkoff, 'A Brief History of Ethnic Cleansing'

    http://www.hagada.org.il/eng/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=196

    The very fact that Palestinians have been forced to live in refugee camps for decades is direct evidence of ethnic cleansing, regardless if they have children while in the camps, and the population grows.

    Other direct, irrefutable evidence is found in the list of Palestinian villages in what is now Israel which no longer exist.

    The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem documented the continuation of expulsion of Palestinians even to the present day. In this recent article on Hebron (2007), they claim ' Given the drastic effects of the policy on the fabric of Palestinian life in the area and the resultant 'quiet transfer' of thousands of Palestinians, the policy constitutes a breach of the prohibition on forced transfer enshrined in the Fourth Geneva Convention and is therefore a war crime, for which the persons responsible bear personal liability.'

    http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200705_Hebron.asp
  11. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Byron: Please. Do you really feel that Jews 'abuse' their 'power' in worse ways that other countries do? I'd love for you to live there - we'd see how quickly your attitudes regarding the 'peace process'. As far as the Jewish state using their power in a 'humane' way, don't you think that they would have liquidated the Palestinians ages ago with their superior 'power' if they are as brutal a regime as Ted Andrews asserts? Come on - use your heads on this one. On one hand, we are told that Israel is a Goliath, with absurd and unnecessary levels of US-supplied firepower. We're also told that they are a nation that is hellbent on ethnic cleansing, and are no different than Nazis. Last I checked Wikkipedia, there are 3-4 million Palestinians. If Israel was as inhumane as you and many claim, would the number be this high? What country would put up with what Israel puts up with in as humane a manner? Enlighten us please. What other country faces rockets (not to mention the threat of suicide bombings) from their neighbours daily? There are countless other points which can refute your arguments, but with respect to Israel's 'humanity' I think you should do some research on the care that Israeli hospitals give to Palestinians of all walks:

    http://www.beyondimages.info/b110.html
    http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020650.php
    http://betbender.blogspot.com/2008/03/israeli-hospital-under-palestinian.html
  12. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Flinton - you're also, IMHO, ignoring a great deal of context when you refer to the 'hand back' of Gaza. First, Gaza remained under tight military occupation, with total control by Israel over ports, airspace and borders, as well as power grid and oil supplies.

    That's just the start. Then in 2006, when free elections were held, the Palestinians were immediately subject to draconian economic sanctions, designed to reverse the election by collective punishment.

    The truce upheld by Hamas eventually disintegrated, but clearly as a consequence of the assault by Israel, including the arrest of many Palestinian MP's (you could easily call those abductions, if you cared to).

    Anyway, you and I couldn't disagree more about those issues, it seems.
  13. W W from Canada writes: Ted Andrews from Canada writes: The zionist ethnic cleansing of 1947-48 continues today.
    >>>>>
    I know Ted, they don't teach this in the Arab schools but within only 12 month of the period you have mentioned Israel lost 10% of its population fighting invading armies of the 6 Arab states. Every Jew who stayed on the territories occupied by these armies was wiped out. While 22% of Israel's population is Arab there is still not a single Jew lives unprotected on the territories. So much for the ethnic cleansing.
  14. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Jon S. from Montreal - no I don't think Israel is more abusive than any other country! Of course not. That doesn't excuse Israel, does it? I thought I made it plain that if Israel shines only in comparison to Iran, for example, then that isn't much to celebrate!

    A regime doesn't have to be genocidal to be inhumane or to abuse human rights. Look at China as an example - a terrible human rights abuser, but not genocidal. Let's not conflate the two, that is rather specious.

    If you want to compare human rights, you can simply look at the annual reports of Amnesty International, and read all about it. I highly suggest you do.

    There are also interesting articles on Israel's 60th anniversary by Mike Marqusee and Elaine Glaser, under the heading 'Memories of a Promised Land' which examine the issues.
    http://newhumanist.org.uk/1788
  15. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Sewage - thanks for living up to your namesake! Your argument boils down to me being 'plane (sic) stupid'?
    Sorry, you'll need more than a cheap putdown to construct an argument.

    Try again, and better luck next time!
  16. W W from Canada writes: K St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: Justice is due every human being, without condition. Those who put conditions on something which is god given do so for immoral, evil purposes.
    >>>
    Well said. So how the Arab countries are going to compensate the 10% of Israel's population that they killed right away and another hundred thousands that they have been killing over the years in their aggressive wars and the their terrorism? Or you never thought about justice for Israelis and Jews.
  17. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: ps, Sewage, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion isn't law. Nor is your understanding perfect and omniscient. Unless I'm talking to God herself, then I stand corrected. LOL.
  18. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: I'm not sure how anyone can argue that the Israeli population growth rate, being on par with most Western country levels somehow constitutes ethnic cleansing on the part of the Palis. Specifically state sponsored activities to drive a population out of the area in which they live... A better example might be the IDF blowing up people's homes, driving people off their land, executions, arrests, mass punishments, roadblocks, forced deportations... all the stuff of the Israeli occupation. Check out the BTselem website for more details...
  19. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Byron wrote: 'The very fact that Palestinians have been forced to live in refugee camps for decades is direct evidence of ethnic cleansing, regardless if they have children while in the camps, and the population grows'.

    I guess it has nothing to do with a) inept Palestinian leadership being unable to accept Israel's existence, negotiate a realistic peace deal, and moving onward, b) Palestinian expulsion from other places (like Jordan), c) Arab nations doing nothing to assist, choosing to use these people as an excuse to stay angry at the Jewish presence in the middle east, or lastly d) the $1B of Palestinian aid that their late great leader Yassir Arafat siphoned into his French bank account - and that's just the best-documented case of corruption.

    The conditions Palestinians live in equate to that of an all-inclusive island resort when you compare it to what Jews had to put up with in WWII. Yet, when the war was over, they survived to become functional and contributing members of the communities they joined. Regardless of the trauma, they didn't feel sorry for themselves, dusted themselves off, and moved forward all across the globe. Sadly, Palestinians have always been so reliant on their corrupt, awful leaders, that they have never been empowered by any means other than violence to resolve their problems.

    I will never claim that Israel is a perfect nation, and I agree that their behaviours and actions can be perceived in a silo/vaccuum as abusive and ugly. Unfortunately, the greater context needs to be examined, and on these boards, there is no clear definition of all the history that precedes today's actions and events, making that need irrelevant.
  20. W W from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: in 2006, when free elections were held, the Palestinians were immediately subject to draconian economic sanctions,
    >>>
    There has never been economic sanctions against Palestinians. Our tax dollars have temporarily stopped flowing there. But these are not economic sanctions. Byron, the quality of your propaganda efforts is going down. You have to pull yourself together. What is going on man?
  21. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Byron: While I don't agree with everything you write about Israel, I do agree with your comments to Sewage! Dude - learn how to spell (sorry if English isn't your 1st language!).
  22. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: W W - the problem with that argument is that it appears to hold the Palestinians hostage for what Arab countries may have done to Jews in the past. That would be not only immoral but illegal.

    Apart from that it's a great idea.

    The Palestinian's rights are not conditional on Jewish refugee rights. That is completely unsupportable in international law, and not recognized. Similarly Jewish rights are inalienable.

    It doesn't diminish the issue of Jewish refugees in the slightest, but that is a separate issue to be dealt with (or not, who knows). Don't forget that large numbers of Jewish refugees came from Poland and the former Soviet Union, for example.
    I would have to conclude that treatment of Jews in Europe was far worse than anything you refer to in Arab countries. The entire holocaust took place in Europe, not the Middle East.
    Methinks your anger is being misdirected by propaganda.
  23. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: And for any interested reader in the formation of the state of Israel circa 1947 -- the 'origin' of the modern Pali problem....

    http://www.pertier.com/video-production/pappe

    Ethnic Cleansing 101 -- and it wasn't done by population growth.
  24. Paul Jones from kitchener, Canada writes: Partisanship in this issue will only beget more violence, and allow this disgusting situation (from all POV) to continue.
    As such, any of you that espouse support for one side unconditionally are as much a part of the problem as the people dropping bombs or strapping on explosive vests.

    Partisanship - The last refuge of the coward; The largest threat to peace.
  25. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: W W - You say 'There has never been economic sanctions against Palestinians'. You ask, 'What is going on, man?' I'll happily answer: you are dead wrong, that's what's going on. I'll give you just one little quote, just for fun.
    From 2007 'The Jerusalem government decided to respond to the repeated rocket attacks launched by Palestinian militants on Israeli territories neighbouring Gaza and announced Wednesday it will impose economic sanctions against the Hamas-ruled territory .

    Israel said Gaza is a 'hostile entity' and drastic sanctions will soon be imposed ....

    The electricity and fuel supplies will be slashed, while cargo crossings will limit the flow of commercial goods, Israeli officials said Wednesday after a meeting of the security cabinet.'

    http://www.efluxmedia.com/newsIsraeltoImposeEconomicSanctionsAgainstGaza08786.html
  26. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Byron wrote: 'It doesn't diminish the issue of Jewish refugees in the slightest, but that is a separate issue to be dealt with (or not, who knows).'

    Well, it won't. Who exactly is going to deal with it??? It's over. Again - the Jews from Arab lands, much like the Jews of Holocaust-era Europe, have moved on to their lives. What support did these Jews have from the lefties of the world? None!

    Speaking of which, if the support for the Jews across the world would have been there all along, the need for a Jewish State wouldn't have been there, and thus - no Israel.

    In the end, the Palestinians can thank The Yanks, Brits, Canadians, and any other country who turned away the Jews fleeing the Nazi regimes, for the current plight.

    Hey Byron: YOU'RE from Canada, right??? Well, I guess you and your kind are partly to blame for the Palestinians living in such squalor....
  27. K St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: W W- I never excluded israelis from justice. That's your spin. All innocent parties deserve justice. If u are blind to the basis of problems there, then no wonder it will continue. But the blood of innocents (Israeli AND Palestinian) is on you and your ilks hands just as much as the fundies that derail and control the process.
  28. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Byron wrote:

    'From 2007 'The Jerusalem government decided to respond to the repeated rocket attacks launched by Palestinian militants on Israeli territories neighbouring Gaza and announced Wednesday it will impose economic sanctions against the Hamas-ruled territory* .

    Israel said Gaza is a 'hostile entity' and drastic sanctions will soon be imposed ....'

    I'll repost it and we can look at that paragraph another way:

    From 2007 '*The Jerusalem government decided to respond to the repeated rocket attacks launched by Palestinian militants on Israeli territories neighbouring Gaza* and announced Wednesday it will impose economic sanctions against the Hamas-ruled territory .

    *Israel said Gaza is a 'hostile entity'     and drastic sanctions will soon be imposed ....
  29. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Jon S - you make some good points about refugees, however you are forgetting that one of the reasons the UN decided to support the Israeli/Palestinian states was because Jewish refugees needed somewhere to go.
    The fact that Israel exists has allowed Jews from any nation to make a home there.

    The same cannot be said for Palestinians who were driven from their ancestral villages and farms when Israel was created. That's why we're trying to get this issue settled (no pun intended).

    Having Israel continue to confiscate Palestinian lands and build new settlements is an unacceptable situation, as it makes the viability of a Palestinian state that much more difficult and improbable.

    The Palestinian state is needed now more than ever, and soon. This problem will get worse if such enmity continues to fester.
  30. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Sorry - the bolding on my last post didn't work as I had intended it to.
  31. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Jon S. - two things. One, WW claimed that there were no economic sanctions. He was wrong. No need to obscure this fact.

    Again, you're missing the point that Hamas was upholding a ceasefire for a couple of years, but this broke down after they won the election. You should look at the context more fully, I think.

    I can't believe you wrote 'What support did these Jews have from the lefties of the world? None!' FYI, the 'lefties' in the UN voted to create the state of Israel - that's right, the UN supports the existence of the state of Israel.
    And you call that 'nothing'. That's pretty cheesy, as well as ridiculous. Did you know that almost HALF of the world's Jewish population lives in North America? That the US and Canada have amongst the largest %
    of diaspora Jews in the world? You call that nothing?

    Less than 40% of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel.
  32. K St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: Jon S- You lost all integrity and respectability when u compare Gaza to a paradise. The rest of your racist posts just prove it. Its that type of ignorance that is the problem in the ME. Fundies like u need to be removed from the process, only then will there be peace. The only history that needs to be examined is from 1948 on. If u want to throw in treatment from 3000 years ago to justify todays crimes, it just goes to show how psychologically damaging those acts are when it turns a victim into a perpatrator. How many countries have to go thru hundreds of checkpoints just to go to work or school or the hospital, which takes hours? The Palestinians are what the fundie Israeli's helped to create. If u can't admit that then there will never be peace. Both parties are wrong, there is no justification for either action. That is how this problem should be viewed.
  33. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Byron: I would never dispute that these people need a state. I would also not dispute that Israel is making a grave error by continuing to announce the development of said settlements. It only aggravates the situation.

    However, the question that needs to be answered is whether or not Palestinans are capable of managing themselves in a manner that is befitting of the rest of the world. They need to 1st demonstrate that they can BEHAVE and play nicely. Jordan felt they couldn't - and banished them. The Lebanese keep them in refugee camps. The Egyptians didn't want them. Any idea why? Because they have continuously betrayed the trust that ANYONE shows them. When Israel evacuated Gaza, what happened? Palestinians destroyed all existing infrastructure left over by the Jewish settlers, and almost instantly began to use Gaza as a staging ground for terror.

    I agree with what you are saying, but the view of both Israel and her Arab allies, is that the Palestinans need to demonstrate that they are capable of handling the responsibility of independance. The honus is on the Palestinian people to a) halt all attacks, b) become better organized as a people, and c) cease preaching hatred of their Jewish neighbourds, and d) expect strong, secular leadership which renounces terror. Until then, there isn't much of a discussion to be had. What would be in it for Israel if they decide to give back the territories in return?
  34. Paul Jones from kitchener, Canada writes: 'but the view of both Israel and her Arab allies, is that the Palestinians need to demonstrate that they are capable of handling the responsibility of independence.'

    Wow. You mean like the Jews did prior to 1948 by engaging in terrorist tactics in an attempt to drive the British out?
    Doesn't that statement go against the Jews constant insistance that every people have a Right to self-determination without condition?
  35. W W from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: From 2007 'The Jerusalem government decided to respond to the repeated rocket attacks launched by Palestinian militants on Israeli territories neighbouring Gaza and announced Wednesday it will impose economic sanctions against the Hamas-ruled territory .
    >>>>>
    Byron, I couldn't imagine that you are talking about the sanctions in response to the Hamas rockets. But if you do, I have news for you. When Germany attacked Russia back in 1941, Russia imposed what you would called economic sanctions against Germany. She stopped sending wheat to Germany within hours after the attack. You are not going to call this collective punishment because of the double standards you practice.
  36. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Jon S. - peace will be a two-way street, IMHO.

    The misconception you have is that Palestinians must first meet certain Israeli-imposed conditions before they qualify to have a state. There is absolutely no lawful basis for this - the Palestinians have these rights regardless of Israel's opinion, under international law.

    Just as Israel has certain rights, regardless of what the Palestinians think about it. Israel has a right to exist, and in fact is recognized as a member of the UN.
    Palestinians have exactly the same rights, and it's well past time to fulfill these rights.

    In no way can that be allowed to jeopardize the state of Israel - but you can't keep saying 'Palestinians are not ready' when you're simultaneously denying them these basic rights. You don't have a legal basis, nor much of a moral basis, for imposing rule on another group of people.

    The US has been far too biased to be an effective broker for peace, and the UNSC has been kneecapped by American obstruction by way of veto. You can understand why Palestinians are incredibly frustrated after some 6 decades of denial and refugee camps....who wouldn't be?
  37. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: WW - you're backpedalling. You said there were never economic sanctions. You were wrong. End of story.
    Deal with it.
  38. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: K. ST. Pierre: Wow - I've never been called a 'Fundy'. I am hardly any kind of fundamentalist, and if you read my language, I stated that COMPARED to what Jews had to go through in WWII, the Palestinans have it easy, REGARDLESS of what you may think. Please reread the middle paragraph of my post.

    There are no roaming death squads in the Palestinian camps, no gas chambers, no identification tattoos, no forced labour camps. While the Palestinians do live in squalor, such conditions are more self-imposed than as a result of Jewish 'inhumanity'.

    If you read my other posts, you will learn that I am no fundamentalist - just one who challenges what some on here choose to pick on.
  39. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Jon S - one other thing comes to mind: Hamas has been offering a truce or ceasefire for years, which has been underreported and largely ignored by Israel's leadership. Recently in discussions with Jimmy Carter, Hamas specifically agreed to support the API, which includes a cessation of hostilities and full recognition of Israel. (refer to the API).

    When you add this to the fact that a majority of Israeli citizens (according to polls) think that negotiating with Hamas is acceptable, it just makes sense to go that route.

    I blame opportunistic politicians on all sides for screwing this up time and again. Meanwhile Joe Average suffers, whether Palestinian or Jew. Enough already!
  40. Al Walsh from Canada writes: The war against Israel has never been about a Palestinian state. It has been about a Jewish presence in the middle east. While Jews sought to build a nation, the Arab world (and Iran) seek its destruction. The Palestinian leadership in Gaza (we'll see about abbas) cares little about the creating a Palestinian state and more aobut desteroying the Jewish one. This is about the infidel.
  41. Al Walsh from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Jon S - one other thing comes to mind: Hamas has been offering a truce or ceasefire for years, which has been underreported and largely ignored by Israel's leadership. Recently in discussions with Jimmy Carter, Hamas specifically agreed to support the API, which includes a cessation of hostilities and full recognition of Israel. (refer to the API).

    When you add this to the fact that a majority of Israeli citizens (according to polls) think that negotiating with Hamas is acceptable, it just makes sense to go that route.

    I blame opportunistic politicians on all sides for screwing this up time and again. Meanwhile Joe Average suffers, whether Palestinian or Jew. Enough already!
    ====
    entirely untrue.. They agreed to a long term cease-fire or truce.
  42. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Paul: Jews were terrorizing the British military presence, to pressure the English into allowing greater numbers of fleeing refugees. The terrorist tactics to which you are most likely referring were as a result of the British imposing quotas on Jewish refugees entering Palestine. Arab nations threated to not deliver oil to the Brits if the number of Jewish refugees from WWII was NOT held down. In essence, the Arabs blackmailed the Brits, and didn't seem to care about what was happening to Jews in Europe - much like the rest of the world. Sorry folks, but for every action, there is a reaction, and vice versa. I guess that includes modern Arab terror.
  43. Al Walsh from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Jon S. - peace will be a two-way street, IMHO.

    The misconception you have is that Palestinians must first meet certain Israeli-imposed conditions before they qualify to have a state. There is absolutely no lawful basis for this - the Palestinians have these rights regardless of Israel's opinion, under international law.
    ======
    name said law?
  44. W W from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: it appears to hold the Palestinians hostage for what Arab countries may have done to Jews in the past. That would be not only immoral but illegal.
    >>>>
    Byron, the Israeli attempts to address the Palestinian refugee issue (without waiting for the Arab to address similiar issues in relation to the Jews) are well documented. The Arab attempts to prevent this so they can use Palestinians as a weapon are documented as well.
  45. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Al Walsh - that's your opinion, which might very well be wrong. You don't really know what's in the minds of various leadership (anywhere). That's just guesswork.

    The language of the API is very clear.
    'I-Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region

    II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.'

    There's no wiggle-room for continued warfare in there. For anyone.
  46. W W from Canada writes: Byron, can you answer my question? When Russia stoped supplying Germany with the wheat in June 1941 in responce to the attack, would you call it collective panishment or economic sunctions?
  47. Al Walsh from Canada writes: one thing is for certain: our view of history is told by the Israseli narrative (whether pro or anti). There is no arab narrative. Where are the arab countries archives regarding cabinet meetings, military decisions. As for the 1948 war, few documents exist. Only those sent to the british by british soldeirs in arab armies. So, until the arab states open their war archives, I would temper my complaints against Israeli conduct during war.
  48. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Al Walsh - to start with 'In the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the United Nations states that everyone has the right to a nationality and that no one should be arbitrarily deprived of a nationality or denied the right to change nationality'

    Israel noted this right in it's declaration of independence 'This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable', and that 'This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State.'

    What's a right to Israel is a right to Palestine....or do we impose a double-standard because of our political bias? Hmmm.....
  49. Al Walsh from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Al Walsh - that's your opinion, which might very well be wrong. You don't really know what's in the minds of various leadership (anywhere). That's just guesswork.

    The language of the API is very clear.
    'I-Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region

    II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.'

    There's no wiggle-room for continued warfare in there. For anyone.
    ===========
    it is not speculation. their is very little nation-building in the palestinian world either under arab rule or israeli rule. (i suspect that this is changing under abbas, but we'll see). In fact, the PLO was more interested in destroying jordan in the early 80's.
  50. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: W W - what does that have to do with the Gaza?
  51. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Byron wrote: 'The misconception you have is that Palestinians must first meet certain Israeli-imposed conditions before they qualify to have a state. There is absolutely no lawful basis for this - the Palestinians have these rights regardless of Israel's opinion, under international law.'

    It's really very naive to think like this. Like it or not, a peace negotiation is no different than any business deal. Especially when lives are on the line. Sorry, but it's a fact. In business, whether payment is issued upon delivery, or if the payment is to come first (before shipment), there is a pre-determined/agreed upon sequence of events. 'You do 'x' for me, and then we will do 'y' for you'. Why would it be any different for a peace deal, especially when as I mentioned earlier, one side has continuously proven to Jewish and Arab state alike, that they CANNOT be trusted to police themselves and behave respectably?
  52. Al Walsh from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler:
    israel has not denied the right for the palestinians to establish a state. It does have a right to prevent its establishment if it is raison d'etre is to destroy another state
  53. Paul Jones from kitchener, Canada writes: Jon S - I would take your comment seriously if Jewish terror was limited to WW2 and after. However, they were willfully engaging in terrorist tactics long before then.
  54. Al Walsh from Canada writes: correction to above post: i meant 70's
  55. K St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: Jon S- That is a base comparison. The point you were trying to make does prove you are a fundi because you are blind to actions and any sense of equality. Bad things happen to all people, not just those of the Jewish faith. There are innocentPalestinians. Self imposed squalor? Seriously? Did they vote for that? It wasn't the Israeli govt that did it, then who? Your average palestinian did no more to deserve their current plight than jews did to deserve the holocaust.
  56. Dave Medich from Windsor, Canada writes: 'Israel agrees to east some West Bank restrictions: Blair'

    Good. That's better than agreeing to west some East Bank restrictions.

    .
  57. Al Walsh from Canada writes: K St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: Jon S- That is a base comparison. The point you were trying to make does prove you are a fundi because you are blind to actions and any sense of equality. Bad things happen to all people, not just those of the Jewish faith. There are innocentPalestinians. Self imposed squalor? Seriously? Did they vote for that? It wasn't the Israeli govt that did it, then who? Your average palestinian did no more to deserve their current plight than jews did to deserve the holocaust.
    ===========
    at least implicate Hamas in something. Hamas chooses to launch rockets, shoot missles and bullets at israelis bringing them oil (can you believe it??), and recruit suicide bombers.
  58. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Paul: Jewish terror that took place at Deir Yassin was not government policy, or very organized. It was most likely (sorry, i wasn't there when this happened), the work of some renegade soldiers. Sorry, but Israel does NOT have this track record. I can't wait for the counterposts.
  59. Paul Jones from kitchener, Canada writes: Byron Rottenweller - wow, an imposter. Last resort of the ignorant coward.
  60. Al Walsh from Canada writes: Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Paul: Jewish terror that took place at Deir Yassin was not government policy, or very organized. It was most likely (sorry, i wasn't there when this happened), the work of some renegade soldiers. Sorry, but Israel does NOT have this track record. I can't wait for the counterposts.
    =====
    the problem with deir yassin is that their are many massacres that were claimed that never took place. The palestinian leadership again misuses a tragedy and created a propaganda tool. It's hard to believe Pal leaders when they continue to lie. Take for example, the recent accusation that Israel did not allow a Pal gentleman with brain cancer into Israel and he died waiting for treatment. Turns out, he's alive and did not show up for his hearing to get across the 'border.' How can i believe their other claims?
  61. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: K.St.Pierre: I'm well aware that bad things happen to ALL sorts of people. But as I have stated, responsibility for Palestinians squalor should by NO means be placed squarely on Israel. Arab leadership has squandered umpteen opportunities for peace, statehood, and prosperity. They refused in 48, 67, 2000 - and those are just the highlights. Did they vote for it? They let Arafat be their leader. They chose Hamas. They continue to distribute classic European anti-semitic hate literature. I will repost my earlier reasons:

    I guess it has nothing to do with a) inept Palestinian leadership being unable to accept Israel's existence, negotiate a realistic peace deal, and moving onward, b) Palestinian expulsion from other places (like Jordan), c) Arab nations doing nothing to assist, choosing to use these people as an excuse to stay angry at the Jewish presence in the middle east, or lastly d) the $1B of Palestinian aid that their late great leader Yassir Arafat siphoned into his French bank account - and that's just the best-documented case of corruption.
  62. Paul Jones from kitchener, Canada writes: 'Before the British Mandate, the Jewish settlers had formed a group of mounted armed watchmen called 'Hashomar' and with the advent of the British Mandate, it became the Haganah (Defense). With a membership of 60,000 Zionist Jews, the Haganah had a field army of 16,000 trained men and a unit called the Palmach, which was a full-time force, numbering about 6000.

    The Irgun Zvai Leumi included between 3000 and 5000 armed terrorists, and grew out of the Haganah and its Palmach branch in 1933.'

    Sounds very unorganized, and HAD to have been after WW2.
    I can provide a link if its desired.
    You paint the Palestinians with one brush, and yet demand no one do the same with the Jews. Double-standard much?
  63. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Al Walsh - any attempt to look at Palestinian behavior while completely ignoring the occupation of the territories (post '67) and the struggle to reclaim them is futile.

    But to nation-building, you can look at the PLO and it's Covenant and how it evolved since 1964, through many rounds of negotiations with Israeli leadership. Bill Clinton declared in 1998 'I thank you for your rejection-fully, finally and forever-of the passages in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of Israel. For they were the ideological underpinnings of a struggle renounced at Oslo'

    So the PLO were operating for some 30 years, making many adaptations to their charter and preparing a constitution, but were never 'granted' the state that was promised in 1949.

    In other words, Israel got that wish (although it then had to defend its new state) without having to 'qualify' to some Arab-imposed standard of nation building or what have you, while the Palestinians have never had a nation to build.

    It is complicated, no question, but I disagree that the Palestinian leadership was never interested in creating a Palestinian state alongside Israel. That isn't supported by the evidence, IMHO.
  64. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Jon S - you still don't get that Israel wasn't subject to such qualifications before it was allowed to exist. Whatever the grievances with the Arab states, it existed in 1949, but Palestine never has.

    You could fairly say that the state of Israel was imposed on the Middle East and then violated the right to self-determination of the Palestinian people by expelling the population. But you wouldn't then say 'Israel should have it's rights suspended for a few decades, and live under a Palestinian occupation'. That would be ridiculous.

    But you're almost saying that regarding Palestine. Equally patronizing and dismissive of their rights...
  65. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Al - 'The palestinian leadership again misuses a tragedy and created a propaganda tool.'

    No other government would exploit a tragedy for political propaganda, would they? Only those dastardly Palestinians! LOL
  66. The Sand Whistle from Canada writes: During recent fighting in the Gaza Strip, armed Palestinian groups have committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes, Human Rights Watch said on Tuesday.

    “The murder of civilians not engaged in hostilities and the willful killing of captives are war crimes, pure and simple,&8221; said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director for Human Rights Watch said.

    Furthermore the Palestininans continue to use 'HUMAN SHIELDS' to hide behind as they launch their Rockets towards the Holly Land.
  67. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Byron: I missed something you wrote:

    I can't believe you wrote 'What support did these Jews have from the lefties of the world? None!' FYI, the 'lefties' in the UN voted to create the state of Israel - that's right, the UN supports the existence of the state of Israel.*

    Byron: This was AFTER the fact. Where were these countries who voted for Israel during the years of 1933 - 45? NOWHERE to be found. Too little too late, 'lefties'.

    *And you call that 'nothing'. That's pretty cheesy, as well as ridiculous. Did you know that almost HALF of the world's Jewish population lives in North America? That the US and Canada have amongst the largest %
    of diaspora Jews in the world? You call that nothing?

    Your ignorance on the Jews of Europe during WWII is shining through: Regardless of the amount of Jews that were living here TODAY, most of the world's Jewish population was based in Europe when the war began. The refugees trying to make it OUT of there were TURNED AWAY. Ever hear the famous Mackenzie King statement 'None is Too Many'?

    If that post about you being a 26 year old journalism student at George Brown is true - it doesn't surprise me. Sorry - but you're lacking a fundamental understanding of the way the world works outside of the classroom.
  68. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: The Sand Whistle - exactly the point. Israel is failing to distinguish itself from it's opponents in that regard. It is no better, in fact has killed many more times the number of innocent civilians.

    What's your point?
  69. Al Walsh from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Al Walsh - any attempt to look at Palestinian behavior while completely ignoring the occupation of the territories (post '67) and the struggle to reclaim them is futile. But to nation-building, you can look at the PLO and it's Covenant and how it evolved since 1964, through many rounds of negotiations with Israeli leadership. Bill Clinton declared in 1998 'I thank you for your rejection-fully, finally and forever-of the passages in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of Israel. For they were the ideological underpinnings of a struggle renounced at Oslo' So the PLO were operating for some 30 years, making many adaptations to their charter and preparing a constitution, but were never 'granted' the state that was promised in 1949. In other words, Israel got that wish (although it then had to defend its new state) without having to 'qualify' to some Arab-imposed standard of nation building or what have you, while the Palestinians have never had a nation to build. It is complicated, no question, but I disagree that the Palestinian leadership was never interested in creating a Palestinian state alongside Israel. That isn't supported by the evidence, IMHO. ========= 1- palestinians were granted a state along side israel. it was rejected. 2- the plo created in 1964, 3 years prior to the 1967 war in which israel captured the wb and gaza. In fact, the plo at that time was not interested in re-claiming the WB and Gaza. Their stated goals were to destroy israel (but to leave the wb and gaza in jordan's and egypt's possession). Yes, the charter has changed over the years and their are signs that Abbas is willing to end the conflict. Time will tell. Hamas is a different story.
  70. Al Walsh from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Al Walsh - any attempt to look at Palestinian behavior while completely ignoring the occupation of the territories (post '67) and the struggle to reclaim them is futile. But to nation-building, you can look at the PLO and it's Covenant and how it evolved since 1964, through many rounds of negotiations with Israeli leadership. Bill Clinton declared in 1998 'I thank you for your rejection-fully, finally and forever-of the passages in the Palestinian Charter calling for the destruction of Israel. For they were the ideological underpinnings of a struggle renounced at Oslo' So the PLO were operating for some 30 years, making many adaptations to their charter and preparing a constitution, but were never 'granted' the state that was promised in 1949. In other words, Israel got that wish (although it then had to defend its new state) without having to 'qualify' to some Arab-imposed standard of nation building or what have you, while the Palestinians have never had a nation to build. It is complicated, no question, but I disagree that the Palestinian leadership was never interested in creating a Palestinian state alongside Israel. That isn't supported by the evidence, IMHO. ========= 1- palestinians were granted a state along side israel. it was rejected. 2- the plo created in 1964, 3 years prior to the 1967 war in which israel captured the wb and gaza. In fact, the plo at that time was not interested in re-claiming the WB and Gaza. Their stated goals were to destroy israel (but to leave the wb and gaza in jordan's and egypt's possession). Yes, the charter has changed over the years and their are signs that Abbas is willing to end the conflict. Time will tell. Hamas is a different story.
  71. Jon S. from Montreal, Canada writes: Paul Jones wrote: 'I can provide a link if its desired. '

    That's great. I can provide a book to counter that. Sir Martin Gilbert's 'Israel'. Go read it.
  72. W W from Canada writes: Byron, you avoid admitting that you are practicing double standard. I will keep asking you the same question until you answer it or admit your double standard. This is the question.

    In June 1941 Russia stopped supplying Germany with the wheat in response to the German attack. Would you call it a) a collective punishment of the German people; b) economic sanctions; c) apartheid; d) all of the above.
  73. W W from Canada writes: Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: So the PLO were operating for some 30 years, making many adaptations to their charter and preparing a constitution, but were never 'granted' the state that was promised in 1949.
    >>>>>
    You meant: PLO never accepted the state it was offered by the UN. We know why. This state offered was next to Israel. But PLO needed the state instead of Israel.
  74. K St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: Al Walsh- Goodday. I am not declaring them innocent of anything. Their actions are definitely part of the problem. But even when deals are put on the table, either by Hamas or the Arab league, there seems to be a luandry list of reasons why Israel won't consider it. Then the onus goes back on Hamas to 'solve' the problem. Does that not seem unusual to you? Fact is that there is a block within Israel that does NOT want peace. This block is also vital in any governing coalition. Yet no emphasis is being put on them as being the spoilers of peace in Israel. Nobody is asking to reign them in. If the process is that skewed to the detriment of the arab position, what other recourse is left? I'm for objectivity and peace, not pro-arab or anti-israel. I see the same old arguments as just a waste of time and just more innocent deaths. If they can't come to an agreement, then one should be imposed. Did u catch Feith on Jon Stewart last night?
  75. Paul Jones from kitchener, Canada writes: Jon S - Typical ME attitude: tit-for-tat with a complete denial that your side can do any wrong. Problem is, I've found this info documented in several places, and your childish refusal to accept that Jews attacked people prior to WW2 in what was then the British Mandate only enforces the stereotype that the Jews believe they are a higher breed of human who is not subject to the laws of us 'lesser mortals'.
    I doubt you can answer this with a simple 'yes' or 'no', but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: Were there, or were there not, Jewish terrorist groups (who were organized about as well as most of the Arab militias are now) before WW2?
  76. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: Jon S. - sorry, that post about George Brown wasn't by me. Notice the 'Rottenweller' name? It's that Clubhouse Sandwich troll again. He pops up every once in a while using yet another handle.

    I think you've overstated your case, that's all. If we turned away so many refugees, then how come there are so many living here now? We made that mistake during the war, and after the war many Jewish refugees came here.

    I wasn't alive during WWII (according to Clubhouse, I'm 26 years old), but I'm alive now, and I'm all for letting refugees from Rwanda, Afghanistan, Iraq and Sudan here.

    But I notice that white Canadians are against having Muslims settle here, since they are once again xenophobic. Some things don't change, do they? The hate stays the same, just the target ethnic group or religion changes.

    We used to say 'never again' but then we keep making exceptions out of fear and hate. In 2008 it's officially ok to support the collective punishment of Gazans because they're a target group - Palestinians. It doesn't matter if innocent kids, old people and mothers die, because they're on the 'wrong' side of our bias.
    Same with the 'scumbags' and their families in Afghanistan...

    Makes you proud to be Canadian, don't it?
  77. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: WW - why don't you tell me what the double-standard is that you claim I'm applying?

    What is the relevance of Russia/Germany? You brought the example up, not me. I don't have an obligation to explain it, YOU do.

    I'm waiting. Meanwhile quit putting words in my mouth.
  78. The Sand Whistle from Canada writes:
    Paul Jones in a previous post writes 'Im so sick of these two fighting, and my tax dollars being wasted, we should let them kill each other'

    So Paul is sick of it, yet he KEEPS POSTING? Is this guy a whack job or what? Is this like some kind of sport for you Paul?
  79. Byron Rottweiler from Canada writes: W W - The history of the PLO is worth debating, but the main point I was making was that the 100's of thousands of Palestinian Arabs who fled during the war have never been given the opportunity to have their state, either by Israel or by Jordan or Lebanon.

    Aren't we just beating up the victims again and again? I mean, it's fun and sporty to kick the weak, but aren't we bigger than that?
  80. K St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: Jon S- Your attempts at deflecting Israeli responsibility for their OWN actions is very sad. It is this very attitude which creates the conflict in the first place. I guess, in your mind, suicide bombers are not personally responsible? And I wouldn't be the one talking about corruption, given past and current Israeli pm's and presidents.
  81. Paul Jones from kitchener, Canada writes: 'So Paul is sick of it, yet he KEEPS POSTING? Is this guy a whack job or what? Is this like some kind of sport for you Paul?'

    Being sick of the situation doesn't mean I don't think it should be discussed. In fact, thats one of the prevailing reasons why it SHOULD be discussed.
    Thanks for trolling through.
  82. Al Walsh from Canada writes: St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: Al Walsh- Goodday. I am not declaring them innocent of anything. Their actions are definitely part of the problem. But even when deals are put on the table, either by Hamas or the Arab league, there seems to be a luandry list of reasons why Israel won't consider it. Then the onus goes back on Hamas to 'solve' the problem. Does that not seem unusual to you? Fact is that there is a block within Israel that does NOT want peace. This block is also vital in any governing coalition. Yet no emphasis is being put on them as being the spoilers of peace in Israel. Nobody is asking to reign them in. If the process is that skewed to the detriment of the arab position, what other recourse is left? I'm for objectivity and peace, not pro-arab or anti-israel. I see the same old arguments as just a waste of time and just more innocent deaths. If they can't come to an agreement, then one should be imposed. Did u catch Feith on Jon Stewart last night? === I agree to some extent. Pro-settlement policies hinder peace. To a great degree. I did not see feith on stewart. He was an interesting speaker. I will say that he and the Bush administration were faced with a daunting task that they dealt with entirely incorrectly. However, i do not believe it was with malice.
  83. K St-Pierre from toronto, Canada writes: Al Walsh- Was daunting yes, but I cannot see their position as anything but self serving while being deliberatly blind to the potential ramifications. Feith's position was that the message was mishandled. Just the message. Calls into question his ability to understand and perceive events if that is the ONLY mistake he thinks they made. He has a book out, but if I wanted to hear someone whine about how the Bush admin was just misunderstood I would watch Fox news. Is cheaper and faster:)
  84. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: W W wrote: Byron, the Israeli attempts to address the Palestinian refugee issue (without waiting for the Arab to address similiar issues in relation to the Jews) are well documented.

    Really? Perhaps you could provide a link.

    Without hardly any effort I can provide hundreds that say the opposite. Lets start with some Israeli human rights groups...

    http://www.btselem.org/English/