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Overwork means errors, nurses say

The Canadian Press

Latest comment posted at 12:03 PM EDT 14/05/08

Over-stretched, stressed staff acknowledge medication mistakes 'occasionally' or 'frequently,' Statscan study finds ...Read the full article

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  1. bob london from Canada writes: Our nurses are great, the bureaucracy sucks and most head nurses are political hags. Most young nurses struggle while the old hacks are paid well and not sent to pasture because of the union.

    I had 4 exceptional young nurses last week that once the old hag came in and begin politicing I wanted out. The old hag was a 'pain medicine' dealer so no one can say what the problem is just high on oxycontine. The young ones refused people their drug hit.
  2. Peter Dunkley from athens, Canada writes: In the U.S., 100,000 people die annually in hospitals because of medical error - three times as many as are killed on the country's roads.
    It would be interesting to know how we compare. How many people die in Canadian hospitals because of medical error?
  3. Robert Boyd from Windsor, Canada writes: The position of Registered Nurse is a job that requires a University degree;carries with it legal liability inasmuch as a medication error might be a wrongly 'prescribed' drug - but the nurse is still held responsible (not the physician nor the pharmacist);the new hire works either an eight hour or twelve hour shift, rotating through days, evenings and midnights.
    Most new hires are 'temporary' - the idea that 'thousands' of new nurses are hired into permanent positions is politicians cant, designed to impress gullible voters.
  4. Jonathon Goodman from Country Club, Cuba writes: In the UK, 875,000 medication errors are made every year from 8.1 million hospital admissions costing 2 .2 billion pounds of addiitonal cost in extra bed days alone.
  5. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: The nurses are right about overwork and errors, but the fact is there is a lot of passive-aggressive negligence and patients can help a great deal. Patients need to insist on having copies of their doctor's orders, to know exactly what their medications are, and to check them each and every time before taking them. Given that a significant proportion of patients would be well enough to do this, they could greatly assist in reducing errors. As for nurses, passive-aggressive behaviour has to be weeded out of nursing altogether with harsh punishments although administration must be live to genuine nursing concerns. Large government institutions have a tendency toward career rumination, turf wars and petty bickering which needs to be replaced with high morale and professionalism that places patient interest first. After all, patients are footing the bill!
  6. curious kid from Kitchener, Canada writes: As a 3-year resident of a long-term care facility, I can say with conviction, that overwork of nurses is a myth, not a fact. Those who are overworked are those who are working 2 jobs, or going full-time to school, while working. These choices are theirs and are the result of materialistic values.
    Any nurse who works only one full-time job is not stressed, and has plenty of breaks and 'down' time during which she sits at the desk chatting to all who come by, including her supervisors and nurse managers.
    I am appalled by the very nonchalant attitude to work today's nurse displays.
  7. Johnny Canuck from Canada writes: We have overworked people in almost every sector of the economy. I'm not so sure this can be used as an excuse for serious errors?
  8. bildolcas West from Kelowna, Canada writes: Would the nurses union consider going back to 8 hour shifts? Twelve hour shifts are tough when one is expected to continually make important decisions
  9. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: Interesting.

    Robert Boyd from Windsor claims: 'The position of Registered Nurse carries with it legal liability inasmuch as a medication error might be a wrongly 'prescribed' drug - but the nurse is still held responsible (not the physician nor the pharmacist)'.

    What is Mr. Boyd's evidence for his claim?
  10. Rain Couver from Canada writes: This does not come as a surprise.
  11. mary wells from Canada writes: to curious kid from Kitchener....i detect a good amount of bitterness, and i empathize with your position but you are wrong.so very wrong.........
  12. CD W from Canada writes: In Ontario Dalton has promised 9000 nurses. I have not seen any of them. In the ER's, some full time positions are job shared out, never to return to full time, all of the new nurses are forced to work two hospitals. Dalton wont change this as the velcro butts in emerg now have their 9 years in, their kids, and their waistlines, and they like it. So solve the problem of the old school bedpan brigade running the nursing union and keeping new staff out, or be prepared to see new nurses go to the U.S. where they get $85,000, housing and a signing bonus.
  13. David C from Canada writes: A new study has found that nearly one-fifth of the country's overworked and over-stretched nurses acknowledged making mistakes in medicating patients 'occasionally' or 'frequently.'

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That's a bit misleading, lumping 'occasionally' and 'frequently' together. Aren't they at the different ends of the spectrum?

    After working in hospital for over a dozen years, I can assure you that the 'occasionally' number is really closer to 100%. If there is a nurse out there who hasn't made a medication error, I'd like to meet her.

    This article alludes to certain INDIVIDUAL factors which contribute to error (and there are many more), but there are systemic causes, random causes, cumulative causes, etc. The study of error prevention is very much a science/art in itself - one which isn't developed nearly as well as it should be.

    It's not OK to admit (especially in health care) that we cannot achieve 100% accuracy. So errors become a dirty little area that we shy away from instead of trying to understand completely. That's a big part of the problem.
  14. scamp the from Canada writes:
    I've said this before and I'll say again, we need overtime limits. This is especially true in the public service.

    Yes, if there's a natural disaster or something crazy happening, people might need to be pulled in for overtime, but what is distressing is the 'regular' overtime. Not only does this lead to excessive stress and errors, but also needless costs. Remember the 100k TTC ticket cashier :P I certainly don't want to meet a police officer who has been working a 60 hour week. He'll be more prone to abuse and less rational. I certainly don't want a nurse/doctor who is at the end of their 12 hour shift.

    Nurses, bus drivers, police officers all work overtime regularly.

    We should limit overtime to say 200 hours a year unless a national emergency comes up. If there's not enough people on staff, either hire more or deal with less service.
  15. mary wells from Canada writes: Rollo.......although i find your reference to nurses very objectionable,i agree with you .I believe our nurse shortage is in part due to the mandatory university degree for RN's. I have found that the diploma nurses have much more practical or 'hands on' learning whereas the degree nurses recieve more theory learning.
  16. Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: curious kid from Kitchener, Canada writes: As a 3-year resident of a long-term care facility, I can say with conviction, that overwork of nurses is a myth, not a fact.
    *******************************************************Are you extrapolating from your own narrow experience to furnish criticisms of Canadian nurse in general. IS THAT DUE TO POLITICAL BIAS. I would be happier if we spent less on other things (eg Afghanistan, hockey equipment for kids, reductions in the GST and other matters too numerous to mention) and spent more on training and the provision of adequate nursing staffs. If someone you love dies because of wrongful medication or if it costs more in time and money due to medication errors, just exactly how do you feel about the priorities of the current government.
    CYMRO
  17. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: Yes, well, they want to be paid as professionals, so expect to work like professionals. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, they always cry about how tired and stressed they are, but most of them also take home some pretty hefty paycheques, so I guess it all balances out in the end. After a decade of nickel and diming our nurses, we seem to be paying them very good wages, while keeping them under a nice protected union umbrella of not one extra minute of work without overtime pay, so frankly I don't know what the heck they are complaining about.

    Deal with it, the entire country is stressed out, apparently we all need to be to afford that new cottage.
  18. Randal Oulton from Canada writes: They'll invest in more administrators to study the problem.
  19. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: mary wells from Canada writes: Rollo.......although i find your reference to nurses very objectionable,i agree with you .
    ------------------------------

    Thank you. I didn't detest nurseholes until I spent a couple weeks in the hospital. It amazed me that while I had to pee in a bottle, rare was the nurse who would help me wash my hands afterwards, even before I was to eat.
  20. Always Right from Canada writes:

    I can't even count how many of these unionized whiners made the sunshine list in Ontario this year. Their overtime is handsomely rewarded.

    Time to get rid of the union mentality (and the union).
  21. Always Right from Canada writes:

    Where's the Nurse Hypocrit Wilkie? I'm surprised that she hasn't chimed in to defend her unionized kind. (Nurses I mean, not Hypocrits).
  22. mary wells from Canada writes: Rollo......you were there for 2 weeks, did you maybe think of figuring out something on your own, have a relative or friend bring you some disinfectant handi wipes for your hands? or maybe ask the nurse to leave a pan of water and soap and cloth at your bedside table?And i find your reference to nurses objectionable because i am an RN.......im sure your stay at the hospital would have been much nicer had there been no nurses to help.
  23. jeff franklin from Canada writes: So much anger 'Always Right'.

    Here's hoping that your Rev. Ted Haggard Manish type wearing the Stephen Harper Mask has the courtesy next time to give you a 'reach around'.

    cheers.
  24. Gogh Forit from Canada writes: I've got the solution. Don't know why no one has thought of this before. We'll just hire more nurses by offering them more money. We can take the money from the $550 billion some First Nation thinks the country has, in its lawsuit over who owns the mines in the Sudbury/Northern Ontario region. Yep, just dig out all that cool cash and wave it in front of nursing students and we'll be hip deep in medical professionals. See, wasn't that simple.
  25. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:
    Nurses don't bellyache as much as school teachers, but they're gaining fast. They don't have three months paid vacation to rest up for the next whine-fest.
  26. George Duncan from Canada writes: The sing song never ends. The nurses claim they are over-worked and under-paid! If they cannot handle their job perhaps they should consider finding a different occupation and they would be happy and so would everyone else. In general the nurses are one of the laziest group of workers out there and do not do a second extra of work unless they get paid. This in itself is poor ciizenship and simply disgusting.
  27. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: mary wells from Canada writes: Rollo......you were there for 2 weeks, did you maybe think of figuring out something on your own, have a relative or friend bring you some disinfectant handi wipes for your hands?
    --------------------------------------

    Yes, just so. I learned to not rely on nurseholes as much as possible. Unfortunately, when my 67 stitches were removed, the nurse that was called in was about to go on break, so she tried to break the record for yanking out that many stitches as quickly as possible, irrespective of my obvious pain and discomfort.
  28. Rick C from Canada writes: I'd like to know how much of this is self-induced.

    A family friend is an ears, nose & throat surgeon. He has said it is routine for nurses to work the system.

    Regularly one of the nurses will phone in sick; mandating someone else is called in to work at overtime rates. Since they are working overtime their collective agreement mandates a longer period of time off...more nurses need to be brought in to work overtime.

    In essence the nurses coordinate their sick days so that they work more overtime and thus get more pay but actually work less hours.

    I don't mean to suggest all or most nurses do this; but it isn't just a few bad apples either.
  29. p m from Canada writes: love to read all the positive supportive comments here..

    canada has become a nation of whingers and whiners.

    no wonder all the professionals leave for the states and elsewhere
  30. W M from Canada writes: It's hard to know whether nurses are overworked relative to what they used to do or relative to other people who earn comparable salaries. Similarly, I find that teachers often complain about overwork, but when I ask them how many hours they spend on their jobs, it is not even close to an average 'business professional'. The thing is that the teachers don't know what other people do (or don't want to know) and it works better for them to endorse the union view. Note: I am not saying that there aren't tons of great teachers who put in tons of hours or that teaching is not stressful; just saying that it is hard for people who have spent their entire lives in one profession to judge workload compared to other professions. Unions are necessary because there are still too many managers around, who are more than willing to screw over employees given the chance to do so. However, unions can also be destructive. They are overtly political organizations that do a lot of their politicking by trying to outdo each other in their appreciation of how poor treated they are by management. Say it enough times and it becomes the truth (which is not to say that it is not sometimes true by any standard). Unions also have a habit of protecting the least competent, most morale sapping of their members; because those are precisely the members who are most supportive of the union. They also promise members things that our society can't afford to deliver - like much more pay, without commensurate increases in productivity. When it doesn't happen, people become bitter and the downward spiral begins. In any case, Emma Hawthorne and others make some very interesting comments. Namely, that things can be a lot better than they are, both in terms of quality of work life and quality of care, even within the current funding framework, IF we can ALL stop playing politics (from office level politics to electoral politics) long enough to seriously address them.
  31. George Duncan from Canada writes: The health care system in place today is NOT working as well as it should and the nurses are one of the main problems. The only way this will get fixed, and this is overdue, is to have a two-tiered system. The one we have is similar to an inefficient monopoly that most people do not want.
  32. max from edmonton from Canada writes: curious kid from Kitchener, Canada writes: As a 3-year resident of a long-term care facility, I can say with conviction, that overwork of nurses is a myth, not a fact. ********************************************************* All right how about a few actual facts. I am not a nurse, but my wife is. She is an RN, in an ICU in a busy downtown hospital. My wife OFTEN comes home after a 12 hour shift and complains that she had not even had a chance to sit and eat lunch, or have a break all day. ICU nurses are supposed to have one patient to look after, but often get 'doubled'. Not only that but there are CONTINUAL phone calls to my house practically begging her to work extra shifts. These calls come in anytime from 5 am to 11 PM. We live a 15-20 minute drive from her work place and she leaves our home at 6:15 for a morning shift and gets home at 8PM. (same thing for night shift only she leaves in the eve, and returns in the AM) My wife works ONE job, and if you ask me she is over worked. 3 shifts in a week is 36 paid hours not including the roughly hour per day that she overlaps at shift changes. there are many weeks where she is heavily persuaded to work 4,5, even 6 days in a row. People complain Nurses are overpaid, they should look at how much CONTINUAL education my wife must participate in. They should also look at the abuse they put up with from patient family, as well as some of the horrific things they need to deal with DAILY. Lastly I don't disagree with the poster who stated patients must take responsibility for the medications or procedures they are prescribed. In my wifes experience as an ICU RN, most of her patients are comatose, intubated, senile, brain dead..... etc. They cant speak for themselves, and often Family is not present. (when family IS present, they are often the LEAST rational people in the room) There are Nurses that 'work the system'. Management needs to do a better job of penalizing that behaviour.
  33. BaB OmimO from Canada writes: If we paid nurses more, there would be more of them.

    Trouble is that mean increased taxes because publically funded health care is inefficient.

    Privatization of health care is the only real answer.

    Nurses in Massachusetts get 100% more in pay compared with Nova Scotia. (Included with lower income taxes in the USA and NAFTA) we'll lose our nurses to the USA if we don't pay them more.

    ..//
  34. Mike Mike from Canada writes: Add to it underqualified and not caring and you will have a much better explanation for these mistakes.
  35. max from edmonton from Canada writes: Ok, George, I will bite please explain how I am part of the problem?
  36. Hopeless Wonder from Canada, Canada writes: It is pretty sad to read some of these postings, Yes nurses do make mistakes. We are human. I have worked though breaks, lunches, and had worked overtime because we are extremely short of staff, for what ?to listen to people here who do not see the real picture. I do not sit on my butt. I work very hard. I am Runned off my feet and I do triple checks before I give any medications. There is no appreication so from now on, I am not going to be doing overtime. I never in my life see such little people who do nothing but compliant about everything, and not know what it is that they are really complaining about.
  37. harry carnie from Northern, B.C, Canada writes: Having had a recent experience in a B.C hospital,
    I have nothing but praise for the EXCELLENT friendly nurses and staff.

    Perhaps because I treated them with respect and politeness..........and they responded in kind??????

    The nurses do get tired from the 12 hr. shifts...
    as, with any other field, the work load can vary.

    They do have a longer weekend period to recover though... so most most choose the longer day .
  38. max from edmonton from Canada writes: Well Mike Mike from Canada:

    you are generalizing a bit. I believe that Nurses in Canada are actually well trained. We have had a chance to invite Nurses in to our home from many other countries. From the discussions we have Canadian trained nurses seem to rank quite high.

    Medicine is a big field, nobody can be expert in all areas of medicine, (especially not with the amount of new stuff that comes available)

    As for not caring, well you find good caring Nurses and you find others. One thing I have noted is that the older a Nurse gets, the more they have to separate themselves from the 'job' There is so much misery and pain, that if you connect on a personal level with all your patients you burn yourself out.

    Nurses offer compassionate care to people that sometimes are pretty difficult (and are having an obviously difficult time). I have been woken up in the middle of the night more than once by my wife crying about a particularily bad case she has had to deal with.

    Nobody can convince me that she doesnt care about her job, but few people really understand what it is that people in the medical field have to deal with.

    It is NOT all bandaids and bum wiping.
  39. Hopeless Wonder from Canada, Canada writes: thank you Max because it speaks from my heart and how I feel and what I go though as well
  40. Mike Mike from Canada writes: Max, perhaps your experiences have been more positive than mine.
  41. max from edmonton from Canada writes: I dont know if my experiences have been more positive or not Mike. I am only telling the side of the story I see being married to a Nurse.

    Hopeless wonder: Happy nurses Week!
  42. Hopeless Wonder from Canada, Canada writes: Just in case people want to know it is Nurse's week. So Happy Nurse's Week to all Nurse's. We are loving professionials caring for you.
    I invite you to visit www.ona.org for more information.
  43. Cut The Crap from Canada writes: This a survey of nurses. They always claim to be overworked, and in large hospital emrgency rooms, expecially in Toronto, they are worked hard.

    But most nurses sit doing cross-words or reading through the night.

    I sat with my grandmother for several nights after eye surgery. The nurses sat chatting and reading all night every night.

    I had a severe adverse reaction to a medication that sent me to the hospital in the middle of the night. I lay in a small town emergency room for 6 hours listening to the six nurses gossip and laugh. I was cold and asked for a blanket several times and not one brought a blanket, yet if you asked them they'll tell you how busy they are.

    I've seen this so many times it sickens me. It's a typical union response. I worked for many years as a salaried person in a union shop. The union workers didn't put in 5 hours work in a 12 hour shift, but they had 7 hours to refine their story of how busy and overworked they were.

    This nurse shortage/overworked story is nonsense, except in a few specific circumstances. But calling this out would be political suicide, so repeat after me: we need more nurses and we need to pay them more.
    .
  44. max from edmonton from Canada writes: George Duncan:

    I waited for a response from you, didnt get one so I took a look back at your posts.

    I now see you are a freak, and a troll. I no longer care to hear your response.

    You are clearly blinded by your ideology and or your hate. Go ahead and paint a group of people with one brush stroke...... It only serves to clearly illustrate your close minded bigotry.

    You sir, are the problem.
  45. Cut The Crap from Canada writes: Furthermore, several of my friends dated and/or married nurses. One nurse, who worked at a psych hospital, regularly asked if we had movies to borrow. The nurse whose 'duty' it was to bring the movies to work changed from shift to shift, but someone was responsible to bring in several movies for every single night shift.

    These are surveys of nurses. These nurses are union members on the lookout for higher wages, and easier jobs. They are never going to report that they have little to do. In fact, many of these errors may be due to boredom, and a rush to get back to the movie or book.

    ICU, Emergency, and OR may be more demanding than the rest of the wards, and probably should be paid more. Many of the other nurses could be let go and some replaced with nurses-aides.
    .
  46. No Name Necessary from Canada writes: I guess it all depends on your experiences with nurses. My dad was in hospital after having been rushed there after having an asthma attack. He seemed to be ok. Stayed overnight, but the next morning while my mother was with him he started to feel another attack coming on. She ran to get the nurse three, four times pleading her to come. She never came. Apparently instead of rushing to a patient in distress, she was too busy fidgeting with something. When she finally did arrive he had already gone in respiratory arrest and it was too late. He had brain damage. While he was in ICU no one monitored his blood sugar (he was a little diabetic because of the medication he took for his asthma) and he lost his vision. So another nurse screwed up there. The biggest regret I will have in my life is not suing that first nurse and that bloody hospital. Now you all know how I feel about nurses. Some are just inept.
  47. W M from Canada writes: Hopeless Wonder from Canada, Canada writes: "It is pretty sad to read some of these postings, Yes nurses do make mistakes. We are human. I have worked though breaks, lunches, and had worked overtime because we are extremely short of staff, for what ?to listen to people here who do not see the real picture. I do not sit on my butt. I work very hard. I am Runned off my feet and I do triple checks before I give any medications. There is no appreication so from now on, I am not going to be doing overtime. I never in my life see such little people who do nothing but compliant about everything, and not know what it is that they are really complaining about." ===================================================== Hopeless, I think you may be taking this too personally. Some posts report good experiences (your patients, perhaps) and some report bad ones (perhaps the patients of some of your less caring and competent colleagues). They may both be accurate, yet wrong to generalize their particular experience to an entire profession. Similarly, the horror stories of overworked nurses who never have a moment to eat should not be generalized to all nurses. No doubt the truth is somewhere in the middle. Management needs to do better, some patients need to be more patient (or even a lot more patient) and SOME nurses who are neither overworked nor particularly motivated need to suck it up and show as much concern for patients and colleagues as for themselves. In the big scheme of things, I'd be willing to bet that good nurses' worst enemies are not bad patients, but self-centred nurses. Similarly, self-centred patients make things worse for everyone. But don't feel alone. I'm guessing the patients who make your life a missery are likely the same people who rant at airline gate crew when flights are cancelled due to weather (as though the gate crew were responsible for either the weather or the decision to close an airport)?
  48. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: Health care mismanagement, failure to pleasantly but firmly supervise and failure to stamp out the pity party found in many pink ghettoes, cause endless harm and unhapiness for employees. In every field, some people work very hard, a few complain and those who don't like it move on. Endless carping is undignified and unconvincing, especially from first-degree people, doing nursing in institutions.
  49. harry potter from Toronto, Canada writes: There are two ways to look at it. One is true that our hospital staff are stretched and on the other hand reason for that is our hospitals are not equiped to handle thousands of people who are immigrating into this province every month. Before opening the flood doors for refugees (most of them arrive with deceases unknown to this part of the world) and immigrants our government should have taken into consideration building new facilities in order to take care of these people. Now a days even if one has a heart surgery maximum stay is about 5 days. I know of a case where the individual was sent home on the forth day and had to be re-operated due to infection and this time they had to keep him for more than 15 days. People at home do not know much about caring for patients and some times too busy to care for patients. We pay taxes so that we get treated well as and when we have to go for medical attention. No one wants to go there for fun but some times we have no choice. If the government is so keen on bringing in thousands of people then they can atleast ensure that these people are properly screened and also ensure that they do not produce children (so that they can stay home and get thousands of dollars in childcare benefits) without any control.
  50. mary wells from Canada writes: No Name Neccessary.......it is highly unlikely that your father became blind due to a stay in hospital.Losing your vision due to diabetes is a gradual process and often happens if your diabetes is not being treated or if you are uncompliant ie. not monitoring it properly , not eating properly, not taking your medication properly etc.Sometimes it just happens even if youve done everything correctly,along with kidney disease,impotence and heart disease..Sometimes it is easier to blame others for trials in our lives that are not understood. My sympathies .
  51. max from edmonton from Canada writes: Wm from Canada:
    Good well balanced post.
  52. matso matso from Windsor, Canada writes: Regarding the annual morbidity/mortality attributable to medical errors...while I agree that any number is too much and that more steps need to be taken to reduce the chance of error across all fields of medicine, I find this particular statistic to be very frustrating.

    Imagine the projected morbidity/mortality statistics if health care stopped for one full year. All hospitals, pharmacies and offices closed. No ER's, no OR's, no GP or specialty appointments, no cancer treatments, no paramedics, no antibiotics...everyone is on their own for one full year. Zero medical errors, but imagine the amount of suffering and death.

    This is certainly not an excuse for the amount of people subjected to medical errors every year - we NEED to do better - but as long as humans have a role to play in health care, error will always be present. But I think most people would agree the health care system helps far more people every year than it hurts.
  53. Always Right from Canada writes:

    jeff franklin - I am an atheist. Stereotyping and prejudice does not help your cause.
  54. Cut The Crap from Canada writes: This "study" is flawed for several reasons.

    1. It is a survey. It does not even attempt to get meaningful data. Every union worker claims to be overworked and underpaid. It's blasphemy to utter a word to contradict this. Many of them probably even believe it now that they have repeated it so many times.

    2. To suggest that Nurses are overworked is far to general. There are most likely times when some nurses are legitimately over worked. Some wards and departments are likely far more stressful than others, just like every other profession. This brand of general assessment is meaningless.

    3. Some nurses probably carry more than their load, while others freeload. This happens everywhere too.

    A useful study would have to assess individual hospitals, the departments within the hospitals, and the individuals with hands on observation.

    Or they'd need good managers on the floor with accountability, and the authority to make changes.
  55. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: My, my - the union bashing here. Having worked as an orderly assistant in an old-age home, I can tell you that some days there was not much to do, and other days we were run off our feet. Some of you criticizing the nurses for "sitting around" at the nurses station may want to keep in mind that what these people are doing is filling in mandatory paperwork. And if it isn't filled in and filed, someone gets in trouble. Many nurses are working in more than one hospital - on a "part-time" basis in each one. This is a ploy to prevent them from being paid overtime. How do you think SARS spread from hospital to hospital so fast? Those of you slagging nurses here might want to keep the following details in mind. 1) These people are exposed to all sorts of pathogens as part of the job. As in: they can get sick and the liklihood is high. 2) Nurses are assualted and abused by patients on a regular basis. It goes with the territory on one level, but I doubt very much that ANY of the nurse and union bashers spewing off here are subject to that workplace hazard in their jobs. 3) Patient's family members have been known to assualt and abuse nurses. They under very high stress, and aren't thinking or behaving rationally. When was the last time any of you bashers were assualted by an associate of your client? 4) Part of the job entails moving patients - regardless of how heavy, uncooperative and awkward they may be. Lots of injury potential there. 5) The pay scale is limited by the nature of public service contracts. Once you reach the top of your classification, that's it. Unless the contract includes a merit increase, no more raises. And even those can be withheld. 6) There aren't enough nurses on the job. But it costs money to have enough on staff. Your tax cuts at work. There's no free lunch. 7) The private system in the US is a lot more expensive and cumbersome than the one we have here. Indeed, the number one cause of personal bankruptcy in the US is medical bills. Pipe down.
  56. Vote NDP in the next federal/ provincial election from Toronto, Canada writes: We should be standing behind the nurses who help thousands of patients in Canadian hospitals. So stop bashing them.

    The problem is only going to get worse because
    -aging population with more demands for health care
    -people are getting sicker (i.e obesity)
    -patients who have no respect for nurses (i.e patient abuse)
    -not enough nurses entering the workforce
  57. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: From what I can understand, the hospitals are the cause of the big overruns in our healthcare system. Not because of the hardworking nurses but because of poor management and the large salaries to management and middle management staff.

    For those of you who complain about what they do for what they earn, you should try working 4 twelve hour shifts with patients who refuse to cooperate or are just downright rude because, unfortunately, they are sick, etc. Nurses are also human and, from my personal experience in several hospitals over the last few years, when I have actually sent written complaints about certain nurses, I am still of the opinion that nurses are getting a raw deal. First of all, why should a uninversity trained nurse have to empty bedpans, make beds and bathe patients? In Europe and Britain, these jobs would be done by what they call 'practical' nurses, freeing up the university trained nurses to look after more technical matters and ALSO have some time for social contact with patients which has proven to be more beneficial than the actual medication.

    Failure is always the cause of management, in every situation, in my opinion.
  58. Rick C from Canada writes: Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes:

    "Failure is always the cause of management, in every situation, in my opinion."

    Spare everyone the drivel. Is management perfect? No. Neither is every nurse, doctor or whatever vocation you want to pick.

    A lot of the problems in our healthcare system are due to the unions which are more focused on political matters than delivering healthcare.
  59. George Duncan from Canada writes: Yvonne above, if someone feels over-worked, under-paid, does not like the job, etc that person should not subject herself/himself to self-inflicted torture. This type of an individual has a choice and that is to shape up or quit and find the job you are suited for and want. It is no different in most other occupations. There are individuals who are in the wrong occupation and that includes nurses. In addition, complainers should learn how to excel in doing their job instead of excelling in complaining!
  60. Cut The Crap from Canada writes: I have had experiences with excellent nurses in the past. You can tell that these nurses were born to be healers and caregivers. I sure wish that I could say that about all nurses, unfortunately that would be a huge lie.

    To suggest that we should stand behind our nurses is pablum. Some nurses are mean and abusive. Like any other profession, they should be held accountable, the bad apples should be kicked out, and the great nurses should be recognized and rewarded.
    .
  61. M M from West Coast, Canada writes: Enough about nurses being overworked! Yes some nurses are in stressful postiions (intensive/critical care), but general duty nurses are not. A 12 hour shift may be long, but then maybe unions should be looking at going back to 8 hour shifts (but then the pay rates might have to be readjusted and shortages might disappear). I had emergency surgery last year and the nurse taking care of the 4 patients in the room (none of us critical care) mainly took our tempertures, blood pressure, and disconnected us to walk us to the bathroom. She got all her breaks (because she announced it to us that she would be gone for the next 30 minutes on coffee etc.). I'm not complaining, but I think the union has another agenda going on here!!
  62. Vern McPherson from writes:
    bob london from Canada writes: Our nurses are great, the bureaucracy sucks and most head nurses are political hags. Most young nurses struggle while the old hacks are paid well and not sent to pasture because of the union.
    I had 4 exceptional young nurses last week that once the old hag came in and begin politicing I wanted out. The old hag was a 'pain medicine' dealer so no one can say what the problem is just high on oxycontine. The young ones refused people their drug hit.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    oxycontin ?/ That explains your bizzarre posts here booby ...........
  63. Vern McPherson from writes:
    The yahoos here blaming unions are of no consequence ...........
  64. Nickstar One from Canada writes: Nursing Nellie's who demanded, voted for, and are working 12 hour shifts have no one to blame but themselves for being "over-stretched, stressed staff". Essentially, when you cut through all the hype and rhetoric, 12 hour shifts are "greed shifts" especially as they relate to overtime shifts. If you push yourself to work your regular 12's and on your "days of rest" accept to work overtime(some or all of these 4 to 5 days off) , over-stretching and stress are inevitable and the deleterous effects continue to mount and are compounded over time. The inevitable end result is the tendency toward "mistakes" and other negative effects from burnout.
  65. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: All the Karl Rove wannabes here - ya gotta love 'em. All of them way too stupid to grasp that their hero has been busted. For lying - among other things. RRW Fascists, the lot of you.
  66. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Orest?

    That was a bit tangential.
    A hint of word salad.

    I see by your BW that your prolactin level indicates you are not getting the thereapeutic dosage of risperidone.

    I believe you will think more clearly if we up your dosage of risperidone to 10 mg HS.

    We just want to help you mantain control.
  67. Gerry Pankhurst from westport ontario, Canada writes: Maybe it's the over worked factor that cause Catharine Wilkie to be mistaken so often.
  68. Tim London from Canada writes: Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: All the Karl Rove wannabes here - ya gotta love 'em. All of them way too stupid to grasp that their hero has been busted. For lying - among other things. RRW Fascists, the lot of you.

    ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
    put down the pipe
  69. S W from Canada, Canada writes: No surprise here, because I witnessed it. The last time my Mother was in the ER. The nurse ran in with a shot for her belly. Mom raved that she didn't want it there. The nurse ran out again. "Ooops, you were right, Sorry! In the arm." In this case, what would the real harm have been? Dunno. What if the drug had been wrong too? Dunno. Likely not good. Dunno. Seems that way.

    But, one thing I think we all know is... that these work-a-holic hours that medical staff do are ridiculously antique. Ask the staff!

    I've NEVER had a doctor or nurse answer my questions about these 12-24 shifts as anything other than "some obsessed head doctors started this nonesense decades ago. And it's stuck." "It's like we are still copying sexy Dr, Kildaire!" "We aren't army medics in a war theatre." "ER and ICU are only part of the hospital." etc.

    To me, it's not about numbers and unions. It's about a 'sexy' heroic job culture that needs changing.
  70. harry carnie from Northern, B.C, Canada writes: Yvonne Wackenagel.........good post..on the mark.
    as are several others.(Max, Orest)
    The tunnel vision, viciousness , and ignorance, of some are to be expected........just normal human stupidity.
  71. mary wells from Canada writes: 12 hr shifts were implemented to give patients continuity of care.........and i just came off one and im working another tonight so carry on with the bashing....I'm too tired to care what you folks say, as long as my patients are well taken care of by my colleagues and I..............Happy Nurses Week to all my fellow nurses.......
  72. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: Mary Wells, keep up the good work. You're as good a nurse as you try to be. I have met some truly exceptional nurses who put the patient before personal convenience. Sadly they are in the minority, of whom I hope you are among.
  73. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: Examples of Rove wannabes posting in this thread include, but are not limited to, the following: Tim London, Nickstar One, Gerry Pankhurst, Michael Sharp, George Duncan, and W M. Simple answers to complex problems are the preferred approach of these types. And, equally preferred, is to blame unions and claim that everyone who has legitimate concerns is a whiner. It is instructive that none of these jokers EVER* has any criticisms of the more senior and powerful members of the system. Not the doctors, nor the hospital administration nor anyone else that actually makes the decisions. Why is that? And how can *"EVERYTHING" be the fault of the nurses and unions? We're waiting for an explanation of this detail.
  74. The Work Farce from Canada writes: Avoid hospital if possible, but if you have a stay in hospital, have a good one - or else. Because if you have a bad one, you become a threat to the medical system and will become persona non grata to all medical personnel. So, if you get given an overdose of a drug or the wrong drug, catch an infection, get victimized by botched unneccesary uninformed non-consensual experimental surgery...oops....it's all your fault. Just when you need care more than ever because you're not only sick, crippled, damaged, and miserable but your faith in humanity is destroyed - you get dismissed and you get the silent (mis)treatment.
  75. Colleen McIntosh from Ottawa, Ontario, Canada writes: Hello, Like all professions, Nursing, has it's share of good/bad employees. Overall, a vast majority are truely awesome and deserve more respect than the mean, petty posts on this Board. Thankfully, most of our patients have more respect/gratitude for our services. As a RN working in Palliative Care, can say that the majority of my patients/families are a great honour and pleasure to know. Unfortunately, as in all professions, there are a few small minded, mean spirited, hateful, harassing, dysfunctional, abusing, and demanding patients/families who expect preferential treatment from their RN's. In fact, this minority will not ever be satisified. RN's work with extremely upset, vunerable, ill, symptom racked, frightened patients/families. The complex nature of assistance required, is no small feat. On top of the above, RN's can be guaranteed to work short staffed, with large patient workloads, higher patient acuity, high patient stressors, management duties, no time off, and frequent demands for overtime. If, we didn't work the overtime, your loved ones would not have any or minimal nursing assistance for that shift. The real problems in the hospital setting is varied/complex and have nothing to do with the Union. It's management based, in attitudes, assigning more and more duties/responsibilities onto their senior Nurses, on top of full case loads. What we need are solutions not complaints. Would be beneficial to: return Nursing Programs to Colleges (shorter, cheaper, and more effective training programs), encourage our foreign Nurses to return to Canada with compariable pay scales, immigration focus on skilled RN's who speak, read, write English, hospitals focus on hiring RN's, without discrimination against unilingually English staff, provision of porters for manual assistance, flexible management, less paperwork and smaller patient loads/responsibility. Just my two cents worth!
  76. Colleen McIntosh from Ottawa, Ontario, Canada writes: Hello, Like all professions, Nursing, has it's share of good/bad employees. Overall, a vast majority are truely awesome and deserve more respect than the mean, petty posts on this Board. Thankfully, most of our patients have more respect/gratitude for our services. As a RN working in Palliative Care, can say that the majority of my patients/families are a great honour and pleasure to know. Unfortunately, as in all professions, there are a few small minded, mean spirited, hateful, harassing, dysfunctional, abusing, and demanding patients/families who expect preferential treatment from their RN's. In fact, this minority will not ever be satisified. RN's work with extremely upset, vunerable, ill, symptom racked, frightened patients/families. The complex nature of assistance required, is no small feat. On top of the above, RN's can be guaranteed to work short staffed, with large patient workloads, higher patient acuity, high patient stressors, management duties, no time off, and frequent demands for overtime. If, we didn't work the overtime, your loved ones would not have any or minimal nursing assistance for that shift. The real problems in the hospital setting is varied/complex and have nothing to do with the Union. It's management based, in attitudes, assigning more and more duties/responsibilities onto their senior Nurses, on top of full case loads. What we need are solutions not complaints. Would be beneficial to: return Nursing Programs to Colleges (shorter, cheaper, and more effective training programs), encourage our foreign Nurses to return to Canada with compariable pay scales, immigration focus on skilled RN's who speak, read, write English, hospitals focus on hiring RN's, without discrimination against unilingually English staff, provision of porters for manual assistance, flexible management, less paperwork and smaller patient loads/responsibility. Just my two cents worth!
  77. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Colleen McIntosh: Excellent post. Agree.
  78. Rollo Tomasi from Belgium writes: ...Overall, a vast majority are truely awesome and deserve more respect...
    ------------------------

    Almost every nursehole has that attitude exactly, which exacerbates the problem. I do appreciate your constructive suggestions, Colleen, except the part about descrimination against the unilingual: everything else equal, I'd choose bilingual or polyglotic every time.
  79. The Work Farce from Canada writes: Colleen McIntosh from Ottawa ,Ontario, Canada: With all due respect to the excellent work most nurses do most of the time (I do agree with most of what you say in your post), when patients die in hospital due to medical errrors it's generally not the difficult demanding ones. On the contrary, it is the innocent vulnerabe ones - the old, women, minorities, the poor, the unattractive, the unconventional, those without family and friends. They are generally the least demanding and most co-operative but due to discrimination are perceived as less worthy of care. More nurses and better educated nurses working shorter hours would be great. But until the attitudes of Canadians at large, starting with the big wig administrators and surgeons, change to be more inclusive, I'm afraid the death toll will continue to rise.

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