Skip navigation

 Login or Register | Member Centre

Life after Buzz

GREG KEENAN

From Friday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 2:59 PM EDT 20/05/08

The CAW's Buzz Hargrove is all smiles after his final round of deals. But his successor faces a grim challenge, with an industry that could soon pack up and move on ...Read the full article

This conversation is closed

  1. George Bishop from Fergus, Ontario, Canada writes: These agreements with both Ford and GM will likely come back to bite the CAW in the rear end, to me its a another stupid agreement as no one knows what the cost of living will be three years down the road and lump sum payments are subject to 50% or more of Tax so the worker does not benefit that much, also people enjoy there vacations and should want more of them not less
  2. Brian Trotter from Just Down the Street, Canada writes: "also people enjoy there vacations and should want more of them not less"

    When the alternative may be a permanent vacation, reality has got to come into play. Just have to speak with anyone who's high paying union job went south.
  3. Lowen Wrainger from Canada writes: GM, Cry-Slur & Ford are just treading water until they can announce that they are moving to China. As soon as that rubble is cleared from the earthquake there will be instant factories built and a cheap, cheap labor force.
  4. Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: I blame all of the North American auto sectors woes on GM producing the Chevy Malibu MAXX, the single ugliest car in the history of automobile manufacturing.
  5. Wilf Kruggel from Canada writes: Like the age old expression in the English language goes, we'll be hewers of wood and haulers of water", thanks soley goes to the union movement and the "ill thought, century old labor laws". At some point in time. A full review will be necessary, before all the companies who fled the scene here for more lucrative climes in Mexico. India China etc, etc will come back. Rewrite thse lopsided labor laws and garanteed, those companies will be back. Wilf
  6. bob london from Canada writes: What is a holiday?
  7. Smart Aleck from Canada writes: Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: I blame all of the North American auto sectors woes on GM producing the Chevy Malibu MAXX, the single ugliest car in the history of automobile manufacturing.

    Two words for you Dwide: Ford Edsel
  8. Old blue from Canada writes:
    "But the biggest problem for the CAW has been the rise in the value of the Canadian dollar, which has helped turn Canada into one of the highest-cost countries in the world in which to manufacture vehicles."

    That's crap...they just build vehicles that no one wants. The Japanese plants in southern Ontario are expanding with the pent up demand for their vehicles......so spare us the rhetoric G&M and let's get back to making the news and the free speechy thingy.
  9. Smart Aleck from Canada writes: Pictures of the Edsel:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsel

    The malibu Maxx:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsel

    I rest my case.
  10. D McAnn from Canada writes: Dwide and Smart Aleck...respectfully I think the two words you are looking for are: Pontiac Aztec.
  11. D McAnn from Canada writes: Excellent point, Brian Trotter. Unions must realize that the business exists to make money, and employment is only sustainable if the business is profitable. We had a local heavily unionized business where the sense of entitlement was beyond belief. If your daddy was in the union from way back, the world owed you a good living. Forget education, forget hard work, forget motivation, forget fair competetion for union jobs. Long story short: while the company was proposing to lay off half its workforce, the union was pushing for more benefits; when the company needed to lay off workers in order to sustain the business, the union put the entire "brotherhood" on strike. One year later, the facility was padlocked, so no one was working. The union still cried, "they have no right to do this!" Talk about sense of entitlement. Bottom line is that the union of today should recognize that keeping the brothers working is more important than gaining an upper hand at the negotiating table. Sometimes businesses must make tough decisions, and I can't help but wonder if, in certain cases, concessions to unions over the years have caused the erosion of profitability which is necessary for a business to remain viable.
  12. Cowtown boy from Canada writes: Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: I blame all of the North American auto sectors woes on GM producing the Chevy Malibu MAXX, the single ugliest car in the history of automobile manufacturing

    I agree with the above poster. Aztec, followed by the Echo, and the Element
  13. Joe Technicality from Hamilton, Canada writes: Perhaps I misunderstood the end of this article - each union member is surrendering a week's vacation for an additional $3,500?... multiply by 52... carry the one... does this mean that the average union worker thinks his time is worth $182,000 per year plus pension plus benefits?

    I know of some other unskilled workers... they're grubbing corners on the sidewalks of Hamilton. They could do the job and be loving it for $18,200 per year plus benefits. Let's toss in a complimentary bus leaving downtown Hamilton to Windsor and Oshawa every day so they don't even have to relocate!

    Spoiled spoiled spoiled little cry-babies. Get some proper job skills so that when you do lose your job (and we're all at risk, blue and white collar), you can pick yourself up with dignity and get a new job instead of hiding behind Buzz's apron.
  14. Dan Radu from Calgary, Canada writes: Two main reasons GM, Ford, and Chrylser are in trouble.

    1. Too many models. (Bad for manufacturing efficiencies)

    2. Models nobody wants.

    Boys - yeah those are pretty ugly, but I need to suggest the El Camino. In fact, it was so ugly it's now a cool to own one.
  15. Johnny Canuck from Canada writes: That's good news. GM has some great products to sell. I notice the logging companies are still by Chevy 4X4"s for their logging their operations. No Toyotos in the woods I'm afraid.
  16. Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: I must disagree with the Edsel and El Camino, talking in today's terms, I wasn't around when they were new. If you drive either of those today, they're cool. The Aztec is butt ugly too, the Echo and Element are just really small, they're hard to do much with.

    As an aside, what cars (within reason) do people here think are nice then? I think the 2 door Accord and the 2 door Nissan Altima are both really beautiful. The new Malibu is pretty nice looking too.
  17. Sue W from Canada writes: ....surrendering a week's vacation for an additional $3,500?...

    And then get back via 'sick days'.
  18. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: good luck to all families affected by this
    I know if you do get hired the jobs pay really well, but I have to think if I lived in Ontario, I would urge my family to not get jobs in this sector. Too much upheaval. Not enough stability.
    Get a trade, move somewhere else in Canada where they need workers, do something other than want to make cars. The peace of mind would have to beat the never ending thoughts of "am I going to get laid off?"
  19. Smart Aleck from Canada writes: Yeah, I guess the aztek is pretty butt-ugly. How bout a top 10 ugly cars. And i kind of like the El Camino. Call me strange. As for cars I like, the '90-'93 Honda Accord is attractive and bulletproof. Just look around at how many are still on the road (15-18 years after they were built!) is a testament to how well they are engineered. For new car looks, I'm partial to the Camry and the Elantra.
  20. Ted Andrews from Canada writes:
    Concession bargaining does not save jobs.
    It leads to more concessions.
  21. CallofDuty . from Toronto, Canada writes: D McAnn from Canada writes: Dwide and Smart Aleck...respectfully I think the two words you are looking for are: Pontiac Aztec.
    ----------------

    I have to agree. What drugs were they on when they designed that? I bet most of the Japanese/Germens exec couldn't sleep at night...........becasue they were laughing they're guts out.
  22. Bradley Hill from writes: Aztec... Could be apply named though. Didn't they go extinct.
  23. A Realist from Canada writes: Concessions leads to wage and benefit rates that are commensurate with the skills of the workers in the marketplace.
  24. Jay Bird from Toronto, Canada writes: You guys are forgeting the AMC Pacer, now there was one ugly car!
  25. Matthew Baldwin from Canada writes: The CAW needs to spend less money on its own salaries, and more money on an active media campaign re: the impact of non-reciprocal trade on the Canadian manufacturing sector. If they have anyone to blame for their own problems right now, it's themselves for managing a message that should be easy to sell.
  26. Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: Here we are, trying to have a reasonable discussion about ugly cars and someone has to break out the AMC Pacer. That's like going straight to Jordan in a talk about best Basketball player ever!

    I was mostly talking about cars that have probably been built by the guys still running these auto companies. Another ugly car is the Chevy Avalanche, it has more plastic in it and on it than Cher.
  27. guy tozer from Saskatoon, Canada writes: Give up a weeks holidays for a $3,500 cheque. Now there is a cost saving measure. NOT....No wonder autos cost so much. Wages and benefits are likely 30 % of the final cost, whereas Buzz wants yo to believe it is only 8%. We need more robots!!. Why pay some unskilled labourer $ 30 to $50 an hour to put 3 screws in a headliner light? I would outsource to 3rd world countries at that rate too.
  28. SN Dream from Canada writes: Smart Aleck from Canada writes: Yeah, I guess the aztek is pretty butt-ugly. How bout a top 10 ugly cars. And i kind of like the El Camino. Call me strange. As for cars I like, the '90-'93 Honda Accord is attractive and bulletproof. Just look around at how many are still on the road (15-18 years after they were built!) is a testament to how well they are engineered. For new car looks, I'm partial to the Camry and the Elantra.
    -------------------------------------
    I kind of wish they don't last so long. The car are so old now that their exhaust smell like some type of foul milk mix with gasoline.

    The car test air test is stupid. They just get cars where 99.9% of the case meet the standard to take the test and charge them a few hundreds. Then they allow all this crap that should be sent to the junkyard running on the road.
  29. aging oldtool from Canada writes: The good news, from my perspective, is CAW did not buy into the two tier wage rate as the US based UAW has agreed to. That would have set in motion a long term crisis in the union that would turn older workers against newer hired, lower wage young people. It's been accepted by some unions who agreed to protect the wages of its longer term members by effectively taking money from newly hired workers. In my estimation, it is an ugly and patently unfair method especially when the new hire is expected to work as hard and as efficiently as the longer term worker. In western Canada the United Food and Commerical Workers Union, which bargains for grocery store staff, is facing a growing division among its rank and file over the unfair wage variances that see young workers earning less than half what older workers get for the same job. Great to see more of the old anti-union mythology that invarably arrives along with any story involving a union. I don't know how many variations there are about the union that held out for too much only to lose everything when the plant shut. If all these stories were factual no one would be working, but that logic is lost on those who don't think workers ought to have the right to bargain collectively. I'm sure there will be many who would welcome a wage split, unless of course their business depends on consumers as the best consumers are those with money to spend. Ask a merchant in Windsor or Oshawa if they'd prefer GM employees as customers or employees say from Walmart. There is absolutely no doubt the big three are in deep trouble and the wage and benefit costs have an impact, but it should always be remembered, the employer has the unfettered right to manage as it sees fit as long as it doesn't violate a contract it willingly signed. This deal should certainly be welcomed by Ontario where a shut down of the big three would have further degraded the province's economic base.
  30. Toomas Parratt from Canada writes: I hope they shut down all the auto plants in Ontario that are unionized. It might teach people a lesson about being greedy, but no they want the Ontario government to bail them out. I have to pay for my benefits, a $100 a month and I am an engineer, and have no pension. I have to save money, what a concept. I find it disgusting that the Ontario government would give millions of dollars to these companies when their is so many other sectors that can use the money and produce better jobs for people that have skills and talent. Its not the wages that are expensive, but when you add the benefits they get it is up to $77/hour. Maybe the labour union should cut their wages in order to keep the plants in Ontario.
  31. P. Greig from Kingston, Canada writes: Assemblers are only as good as the parts they are given, the tools provided to them and the design they reference.

    http://tiny.cc/Ifi8U
  32. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Joe Technicality from Hamilton, Canada writes: Perhaps I misunderstood the end of this article - each union member is surrendering a week's vacation for an additional $3,500?... multiply by 52... carry the one... does this mean that the average union worker thinks his time is worth $182,000 per year plus pension plus benefits?

    I know of some other unskilled workers... they're grubbing corners on the sidewalks of Hamilton. They could do the job and be loving it for $18,200 per year plus benefits. Let's toss in a complimentary bus leaving downtown Hamilton to Windsor and Oshawa every day so they don't even have to relocate!

    Spoiled spoiled spoiled little cry-babies. Get some proper job skills so that when you do lose your job (and we're all at risk, blue and white collar), you can pick yourself up with dignity and get a new job instead of hiding behind Buzz's apron.
    Posted 15/05/08 at 9:39 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    ================================================
    Poor arithmetic skills. $3500 to give up 3 weeks of vacation not one.
    I see you can't read or add so Ford, GM and Chrysler don't want you.
    Stay in your cubicle and leave real workers alone.
  33. Alonso Garnet from Canada writes: So long as Buzz is around, I will not buy a new vehicle from Ford, Chrysler or GM. Not that I think they are that bad (hey Ford is advertizing that they are finally equal in quality with Toyota), but I just don't want to support Buzz and his ilk. Drop Buzz and there will be a Dodge Dakota 4x4 extended cab in my drive-way soon (so long as they remain $10,000 less than a Toyota Tacoma).
  34. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Alonso Garnet from Canada writes: So long as Buzz is around, I will not buy a new vehicle from Ford, Chrysler or GM. Not that I think they are that bad (hey Ford is advertizing that they are finally equal in quality with Toyota), but I just don't want to support Buzz and his ilk. Drop Buzz and there will be a Dodge Dakota 4x4 extended cab in my drive-way soon (so long as they remain $10,000 less than a Toyota Tacoma).
    ===================================
    Buzz will retire soon, he's 64. Enjoy your Dakota.
  35. Alonso Garnet from Canada writes: ummm, Honesty in the Best Policy, the end of the article reads "The agreement laid down with Ford calls includes the wage freeze and other cost-saving measures, lower starting-wage rates for new employees and a longer period of time before those employees are paid full wages, as well as surrender of one week of holidays in return for $3,500". Given, it is poorly written but I think the poster's analysis is correct.
  36. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    I LOVE my new Lincoln MKX made in Oakville. It is by far the best vehicle I have owned. The fact that is assembled in Canada with body parts fro Buffalo an engine and transmission from Ohio, seats made in Oakville and many other parts from Ontario is a bonus.

    Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign
  37. D McAnn from Canada writes: While we are on the subject of ugly vehicles, why don't we include every minivan ever made? While I absolutely agree with Echo and Element, Dwide's original comment was specific to North American vehicles. These are definitely the "ugly" from Japan. I think the best looking NA vehicles are probably the Viper and every Corvette ever made.
  38. Alonso Garnet from Canada writes: Yes, Honesty is the Best Policy", Buzz will soon be gone...but you have to wonder how many people like me made it a point not to buy a vehcile from those companies represented by Buzz and the CAW. I think they actually shot the working person at the plants in the foot by being so caustic.
  39. Tim Cares from Canada writes: How about the Gremlin? "Where's the rest of your car, Toots?"
  40. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    Alonso Garnet from Canada
    Joe Technicality from Hamilton
    I Agree Greg Keenen could have been clearer.
    Yes the article says one week but it is per year of a three year contract. So three weeks of vacation given up is a significant cost savings to these companies along with no raises and many other smaller adjustments keeps the Canadian worker competitive.
  41. Tim Cares from Canada writes: D McAnn from Canada writes: Excellent point, Brian Trotter. Unions must realize that the business exists to make money, and employment is only sustainable if the business is profitable...

    These companies were profitable just a few short years ago and the union workers haven't had that much of a raise recently.
    Maybe you should try working on another theory.
  42. DON BARTA from Canada writes: Yo; Joe Tech, Sue W, Guy Tozer and all the rest of you uninformed union bashers and whinners out there - The details are not out yet on the GM agreement but the deal at Ford had a $3,500.oo lump sum payment to make up for the loss of one weeks vacation each year forever and ever and ever into the future. This is the company's way to introduce lump sums instead of cost of living increases and a bonus at the start of the deal is a great way to smokescreen the longterm loss.
    Ford also had a $2200.oo signing bonus to cover the future wage increase loss and the loss of cost of living increases.
    The good old days in the auto industry are coming to a close as they keep on chipping away at the wokers wages, benefits and pensions.........
  43. SoTiredoftheBS inTO from Canada writes: Ugly cars - Ford Pinto anyone??? As to the article I don't understand how the Detroit triumvirate can stay in business paying the wages they do to the CAW. At $77.00/hr. that's about $160,000/yr with benefits etc. I hold 2 degrees and have 25 years experience in my field and it would take me 2 years to get that kind of dough. Even at GM's offer of $47.00/hr. that's over $97,000/yr. These guys should get with the times and and look at what real people make. GM close your Canadian factories for a year or two then come back and start again with normal wages and we will all benefit.
  44. Joe Canada from Kingston, Canada writes: A sad day for the global warming chicken littles. Further investment in the auto sector (2nd largest GHG emitters) only serves to exacerbate the problem.

    You must be furious...right?

    Unless its the Alberta oil sands?
  45. Hail to the Conservatives ! from London, Canada writes: "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign"

    If there was ever a more ignorant phrase uttered I would be seriously surprised.
  46. foo bar from Canada writes: > At $77.00/hr. that's about $160,000/yr with benefits etc. I hold 2 degrees and have 25 years experience in my field and it would take me 2 years to get that kind of dough. Sucks for you. I charge $80 for fee-for-services, and I only have one degree and 10 years experience. My business associate charges $120/hr.
  47. A A from Canada writes: Simply streamline manufacturing like all non- US brands. And oh yes be consistent on quality (not a car here and a car there)

    Does anyone know if GM has flexible assembly lines like Honda?
  48. Raymond Young from writes: What a joke. $77 an hour with benefits for unskilled labor? And we wonder why North American auto manufacturers are circling the toilet bowl.
  49. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Hail to the Conservatives ! from London, Canada writes: "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign"

    If there was ever a more ignorant phrase uttered I would be seriously surprised.
    ==============================================
    I guess you think we can all make a living working at Wal-Mart selling each other Chinese crap?
  50. D B from Canada writes: Without reading the moronic comments here, let me say that this is just another BETRAYAL and SELLOUT of not only auto workers but every single worker in Canada and indeed in the world by a CORRUPT UNION. It once again highlights the HYPOCRISY OF THE CAW with their so-called no concession policy.

    LIARS!
  51. M Tan from Canada writes: "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign"

    Do you know that the 3 US automakers are most guilty of buying foreign parts and assemble their cars in North America? Why do you think Delphi China is doing so well.
    This deal is really good in today's economy, and it can't be good for the automakers. I think too good to be true. I wonder what the managements are up to.
  52. D K from Canada writes: Hail to the Conservatives ! from London, Canada writes: "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign"

    Do you mean those foreigner American cars Ford sells? Or those foreigner Toyotas and Hondas assembled in Alliston? Or perhaps you mean those "domestic" cars from GM that are assembled in Korea? So many Canadian car companies to choose from!
  53. K D from Canada writes: Hard time for auto workers. Bad economy and record gas prices, ouch! That said, I still think the union does not give up enough to help GM and the others compete better on the cost side.

    Of course Canadians who buy Asian cars could help also by stepping up and at least trying out a GM, Chrysler or Ford when they buy!
  54. F Yue from Canada writes: Hey 'honesty is the best policy'

    If i can buy better quality car for the same or less money that your plant makes, then why in heavens name would i buy your car?

    You might experience an epihany when you condsider your answer-
  55. Rick C from Canada writes: Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:

    "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign"

    Of course...because after all no Honda or Toyota vehicles are manufactured in Canada.
  56. SoTiredoftheBS inTO from Canada writes: Foo bar from Canada; My point was not "Pity me, I don't make enough money". In my field I am quite well paid and live a very nice life. My point was that people with high degrees of education and experience often don't make as much as unskilled, less educated workers. And before you jump all over me I used to work for GM at the old Scarborough truck plant on the line to pay for university. And believe me assembly line jobs do not requore much skill or physical endurance.
  57. Tim Cares from Canada writes: Anyone have an itemization of the hourly costs? I find it hard to believe those numbers.
  58. K D from Canada writes: Quality difference between GM and asian models is minimal to none. Welcome to the 21st century guys.
  59. Jon Butlin from Canada writes: Labor hours typically run from 15 to 30 hours per vehicle, depending on the productivity of the plant and the type of vehicle (Oshawa is tops in N. America at 15.85 hours - 2006 data). But on average, if you said 25 hours per vehicle and looked at the CAW rates people are throwing around here at $77, including benefits, the average GM car would include $1900 of labor costs. So exactly how much of a pay cut should the GM workers take to get GM profitable again? Maybe the problem isn't the salaries...
  60. Steve D from St. John's, Canada writes: aging oldtool from Canada writes: "In my estimation, it is an ugly and patently unfair method especially when the new hire is expected to work as hard and as efficiently as the longer term worker."

    Actually, the new hire would be expected to work harder and more efficiently for about a week, until they learn the ropes and do nothing same as the older guys.
  61. Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: Quality is completely irrelevant when it comes to buying a car.

    Most car purchases now are based more on "WANT" than "NEED" If you need to move six kids around on the cheap, buy a Dodge Caravan, but today more and more people view their car as something that defines them and nobody wants to be defined as a loser driving a boring and dated looking domestic. I'm the key demographic the industry wants (Male, 18-35, disposable income to boot) yet I've owned 2 Honda's now and am looking at a BMW as my next car. The simple fact is that if you think the products from GM, Ford and Chrylser that we're offered drive as well, have the same quality of build or as attractive as an import, that's because you've probably never driven an import.
  62. Tim Cares from Canada writes: Dwide Schrude from Canada writes...The simple fact is that if you think the products from GM, Ford and Chrylser that we're offered drive as well, have the same quality of build or as attractive as an import, that's because you've probably never driven an import....

    I guess all those reviewers on TV that say they do don't know what they're talking about
  63. AJ Flint from Canada writes: " In western Canada the United Food and Commerical Workers Union, which bargains for grocery store staff, is facing a growing division among its rank and file over the unfair wage variances that see young workers earning less than half what older workers get for the same job"

    So.....their sense of immediate entitlement leads them to disrespect the practice of rewarding years of loyalty now!? (That's absurd) Someone who stays in the same job for years and years DESERVES bonus wages above those of the new hire. Heck; some stodgy economist could even argue that rewarding loyalty by higher salaries by year employed would lead to a more stable economic and environment!!

    The nerve of them to reward the people who have stayed with the company for years and years with higher salaries than the newbies.

    Fruits of your labor nothing.......I WANT THAT EXECUTIVE RETIREE SALARY......NOOOOWWWWWWWW!!!

    WWHAAA!!
    WWHAAA!!

    and throws torque wrenches at whomever is near enough to hit
  64. Right said fred from Canada writes: Well if they got their contracts signed then so be it. At least it won't be some dragged on he said they said affair. Just get it done with and lets get onto more important problems shall we.
  65. D K from Canada writes: "Tim Cares from Canada writes:

    I guess all those reviewers on TV that say they do don't know what they're talking about "

    Who, Wayne Gretzky and Tiger Woods?
  66. steve allan from Canada writes: This is just the start of the concessions bandwagon. Next contract will bring more demands for concessions and they will be met by the union. Eventually wages and benefits will return to sane levels and allow the Big Three to be competitive.
  67. steve allan from Canada writes: The fact is the uneducated dope smokers and alcoholics who work in GM plants across Ontario have nothing to complain about. They are singularly the most overpaid and underworked bunch of blue collar workers in the history of the world.
  68. Scoobs7 Dog from Canada writes: Well Steve, it looks like you know zip about the typical GM employee. Why don't you go back to issuing some "prime" ABCP, or selling someone insurance they don't need. Maybe it's tee time for you? Don't forget to write off the greens fees and beer as a business expense.
  69. Luke Ploski from Burlington, Canada writes: RE: "The simple fact is that if you think the products from GM, Ford and Chrylser that we're offered drive as well, have the same quality of build or as attractive as an import, that's because you've probably never driven an import."

    I've owned BMWs when they were quality and made in Germany. Right now there is nothing that sepearates an 300 series from any "domestic" that is 2/3 the price. I don't know if I would consider made in Mexico as an "import". The BMW strategy for the last decade has been to sell a overpriced, sub-luxury vehicles to the vanity of the middle class leasee . . . you'd be better off buying a reasonably priced "domestic" and attaching the BWM logo as you cruise by the club-district, trying to look cool.
  70. Jay R from Canada writes: Jon Butlin from Canada writes: "...at $77, including benefits, the average GM car would include $1900 of labor costs..."

    Jon, that is way too simplistic of a view.

    Having toured the plants, at some points there are no workers working on a car (robot station, in between stations etc.), but there are a lot of times where there are more than one worker working on a car. There can be up to 4 people working at certain stations. Also, you have to consider off-line workers such as tow-truck drivers, maintenance workers, and shipping areas just to name a few.

    That only counts the assembly plants. There are also engine and transmission plants (also making the news) as well as others that feed into the assembly plants.

    Also consider that unionized suppliers are also under CAW/UAW rule.

    All in all CAW/UAW unionized worker labor charge is far greater than $1900.
  71. James Mossman from Muskoka, Canada writes: Hmmmm.... Cameros and pick-ups. What with the price of gas going through the roof I can see the quanties of these vehicles tailing off.
    Somehow methinks the layoffs will be inevitable.
  72. It Is What It Is.... from Canada writes: Thats wonderful but I will stick with my Honda or other more reliable foreign cars. Best of all they are not assembled by over paid union hacks.
  73. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Jay R from Canada writes: Jon Butlin from Canada writes: "...at $77, including benefits, the average GM car would include $1900 of labor costs..." Jon, that is way too simplistic of a view. Having toured the plants, at some points there are no workers working on a car (robot station, in between stations etc.), but there are a lot of times where there are more than one worker working on a car. There can be up to 4 people working at certain stations. Also, you have to consider off-line workers such as tow-truck drivers, maintenance workers, and shipping areas just to name a few. That only counts the assembly plants. There are also engine and transmission plants (also making the news) as well as others that feed into the assembly plants. Also consider that unionized suppliers are also under CAW/UAW rule. All in all CAW/UAW unionized worker labor charge is far greater than $1900. ========================================== Your opinion is not based on fact. Jon Butlin is correct. Read the Harbour report. Canada's Autoworkers (union and non union, Big three or transplant) are among the most productive workers in the world. We in Canada are way ahead of American and Mexican workers in productivity. Auto manufacture is THE high tech industry. If you took a tour you would see very advanced automation in all Canadian plants. If you buy a Honda from Alliston good for you. Also a Toyota from Cambridge or Woodstock. However these plants only create half as many jobs here because they source their parts largely from Japan. The Big three and their workers are essential to Canada and the Canadian economy.
  74. K D from Canada writes: I used to drive an Accord, it was nothing special and Honda service ripped me off every time with crazy prices. People assume Accord is better than any domestic brand sedan. Take a look at the reviews on the new Malibu. Better yet, give one a try and see.
  75. One Eye Open from Canada writes: Since Buzz mouthed-off, offending ALL Albertans during the last election, I quit buying Canadian built cars. CAW workers can thank Buzz for that. Since the G&M has been telling us for years how rich Albertans are... I guess it was pretty stupid to offend 4 million potential clients. Maybe Buzz should be laid off.
  76. Rabid Senses from Good gawd, a latte-swilling Westerner, Canada writes:

    To not purchase an American car is an exercise in reason.

    Indeed, saying "NO" to the so-called Big Three is a decision governed by a balanced set of considerations"

    - innovation
    - fuel economy
    - design
    - environmental footprint
    - etc.

    On all counts GM, Chrysler, and Ford fail miserably.

    I do not wish it upon anyone in Ontario or Canada to lose jobs due to the ugly executive mismanagement of the American auto sector.

    However, it is these petulant vanguards of unfeeling capitalism and the complete lack of ingenuity that got them there.

    Too bad. So sad.

    Please, Canada, invest in these new technologies and get these people into gainful employment that has a real future.
  77. Tim Cares from Canada writes: D K from Canada writes: "Tim Cares from Canada writes:

    I guess all those reviewers on TV that say they do don't know what they're talking about "

    Who, Wayne Gretzky and Tiger Woods?...

    Do they review cars. I'm talking about the car shows on TV.
  78. It Is What It Is.... from Canada writes: K D from Canada writes: I used to drive an Accord, it was nothing special and Honda service ripped me off every time with crazy prices. People assume Accord is better than any domestic brand sedan. Take a look at the reviews on the new Malibu. Better yet, give one a try and see.
    --------------------------------------------------
    You must work at GM. Too bad.

    Before we heap praise on the Malibu lets wait 5 years to see how reliable this car really is. Talk to Malibu owners then and see if they still love their car.
  79. Tim Cares from Canada writes: One Eye Open from Canada writes: Since Buzz mouthed-off, offending ALL Albertans during the last election, I quit buying Canadian built cars....

    How many cars have you bought since the last election?
  80. D K from Canada writes: "Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:....

    Also a Toyota from Cambridge or Woodstock. However these plants only create half as many jobs here because they source their parts largely from Japan. The Big three and their workers are essential to Canada and the Canadian economy." "

    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200610/27/eng20061027_315632.html

    Big 3= chinese parts. Japan= japanese parts (for now) .Pick your poison
  81. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: Rabid Senses from Good gawd, a latte-swilling Westerner, Canada writes:

    To not purchase an American car is an exercise in reason.

    Indeed, saying "NO" to the so-called Big Three is a decision governed by a balanced set of considerations"

    - innovation
    - fuel economy
    - design
    - environmental footprint
    - etc.

    On all counts GM, Chrysler, and Ford fail miserably.

    I do not wish it upon anyone in Ontario or Canada to lose jobs due to the ugly executive mismanagement of the American auto sector.

    However, it is these petulant vanguards of unfeeling capitalism and the complete lack of ingenuity that got them there.

    Too bad. So sad.

    Please, Canada, invest in these new technologies and get these people into gainful employment that has a real future
    ============================================
    Good post
    At least you realize that that management is at fault for the product line up. The workers do their best but if the product is designed for a market that no longer exists they are laid off and the Execs still get bonuses.
    Still you should look at fords new products from Oakville. They might meet your criteria.
  82. Jay Ready from writes: Honesty is the best policy: http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/06/03/113402.html

    You're right that they do include support services like my first point mentioned, but go down about 1/4 of the way and they show the labor hours including powertrain & stamping.
    They also don't include labor costs associated with suppliers.

    While the plants are quite advanced, it is still heavily reliant on workers to do the job (robots do actually very little independant work - a huge assist in AGVs etc..).
  83. jerry macintyre from KITCHENER, Canada writes: Yes lets send it all to China or someplace where it can be built for peanuts,the cost of a vehicle will not come down,just more profit and bonuses for those that already have more than enough.
  84. A A from Canada writes: I just bought domestic. A new Honda CR-V built in Ohio.

    I heard that Honda imported asian workers to keep people from Ohio out of a job. Shhhhhh.....................don't tell anyone.
  85. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes: D K from Canada writes: "Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:....

    Also a Toyota from Cambridge or Woodstock. However these plants only create half as many jobs here because they source their parts largely from Japan. The Big three and their workers are essential to Canada and the Canadian economy." "

    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200610/27/eng20061027_315632.html

    Big 3= chinese parts. Japan= japanese parts (for now) .Pick your poison
    ===============================================
    Did you read what you posted?
    It says Ford buys less than 10% of its pars from the whole Asia-Pacific region.
    This backs up my post that the Big three source locally.
  86. Jon Butlin from Canada writes: Jay R from Canada writes: Jon Butlin from Canada writes: "...at $77, including benefits, the average GM car would include $1900 of labor costs..."

    Jon, that is way too simplistic of a view.

    All in all CAW/UAW unionized worker labor charge is far greater than $1900.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Jay - Please provide numbers to back up your assertion that the labor charge is greater than $1900. I did a bit of quick research on the 'net and the 20 to 30 hours is pretty standard. If you have data that proves otherwise, please share - I'll believe data before opinions!

    My point is, even if the Japanese plants in Ontario have labor rates at 2/3 of GM, there is only a difference of $600-700/vehicle (Labor rates in Japan & Germany are even higher than in N. America). So there must be something beyond the high labor rates at GM that is causing them to be unprofitable.
  87. bill williams from Canada writes: -

    Big Three ... Words on the tombstone:

    WE DIDN'T ACCEPT

    Global Warming Is For Real
    Quality Is The Thing

    I HATE to have to say it, but I will not vote for McGuinty unless, in return for public money, he requires the Big Three to locate some R and D and --ultimately-- production of low/zero emission vehicles. Can't make'em change? Help Stronach, who sees the writing on the wall.

    Buzz, it won't be long before the jobs at the non-union operations are better than yours. If you want to help your people use your leverage to get new technology fuel efficient product lines into Canada. Use ALL your leverage, and all the tolerance your members have for sacrifice to accomplish this. You guys are going right over the cliff.

    Any economy that is not actively, strenuously, trying to anticipate the non-carbon economy is dead in the water.

    -
  88. bill williams from Canada writes: -

    Hey Tim,

    I missed all that. What did Buzz say to Albertans?

    -
  89. Tim Cares from Canada writes: bill williams from Canada writes: -

    Hey Tim,

    I missed all that. What did Buzz say to Albertans?..

    Don't know. Ask the Albertan. I suspect it had to do with him wanting CAW members to vote for whomever will have the best chance of keeping Harper out but I'm not sure. Some Albertans will be offended by anything.
  90. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    For more info on productivity:

    http://www.reliableplant.com/article.asp?articleid=6572

    Ron Harbour says;
    “General Motors essentially caught Toyota in vehicle assembly productivity. Considering that they will be building vehicles in 2007 with dramatically fewer hourly employees in the U.S., GM, Ford and Chrysler likely will reduce their hours per vehicle significantly.”
  91. D K from Canada writes:
    "Did you read what you posted?
    It says Ford buys less than 10% of its pars from the whole Asia-Pacific region.
    This backs up my post that the Big three source locally."

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2008-02-25-canada-economy_N.htm

    What do you think Canada supplies the rest? Canada supplies $18 Billion in auto parts to the US for ALL car companies and falling. Asia-Pacific $9 billion to FORD.
  92. Tim Cares from Canada writes: Anyway, for those of you who are talking (incorrectly) about the poor quality of domestic vehicles, the Canadian plants are rated much higher in regard to build quality than American or Mexican plants so if GM wants their cars to be built with a higher build quality, they should be building them here.
    If they want them build as cheaply as they can, they should be building them in Mexico or the U.S.
  93. Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: GM experience - We had a Buick LeSabre and a Regal GS, drove them for over 10 years, the bodies didn't rust and the engines laster (pushrod 3.8 litre, that thing is bullet proof)

    Honda Experience - Drove a used 93' Prelude that had 250,000 KM's on it. Drove it like Mario Andretti every day and sold it at a great price five years after buying it.

    Ford experience - Drove 2 different Taurus', both dropped the tranny (one 300 Km's from home in Chatham) and had major failures. My Ford Probe used to roll backwards on a hill - and it was an automatic!!! also the whole bottom of the Probe fell off one afternoon, I still smile about that.

    I guess what I'm saying is it's unfair to group them as "Import" and "Domestic" Even within those catergories, some are better than others.

    GM > Ford. Honda > Mazda.
  94. guy tozer from Saskatoon, Canada writes: DON BARTA from Canada: You just supported all the posts, that the unions are costing Canadians billions. It is always gimme,gimme,gimme, with the unions. I have refused jobs because the work was unionized. They had their place in the twenties, but are way too powerful now and greedy. BTW, I am retired, and all the money that would have gone for "union dues" which gets you NOTHING in return, has been giving my a nice return ....Thanks
  95. Jim Goodwin from Canada writes: It is amazing how some people blame the workers for decisions made at the corporate level. Then you have the jealous non union worker who complains about the wages and benefits of a union worker. (perhaps it would show you that you need a union yourself). Rather than denigrate those who do well we need to try to bring the remainder up to the same level. Globalization was only for business, they did not allow the unions to globalize. If that had have happened then there would have been a leveller playing field. By the way although Toyota has no union, they give the same benefits as the CAW has earned for their workers because they don't want the union in there. They know that if they don't match it will not be long until they are negotiating with Buzz, and he is a good negotiator. Every worker in this country can thank the union movement for things that we take for granted today. Paid holidays, workplace safety, labour boards, etc.
  96. Badges? We don't need no stinking badges from Canada writes: Dwide Schrude from Canada writes: I blame all of the North American auto sectors woes on GM producing the Chevy Malibu MAXX, the single ugliest car in the history of automobile manufacturing.

    What about the Pontiac Aztec...that's gotta be the ugliest
  97. K D from Canada writes: I find it funny how some people here assume that if you like a GM car or own one you must work there, and that it obviously won't last because GM cars in 1988 were crap and nothing has changed. How ignorant.

    Check the data. Check out the cars. Throw away your bias. You will likely be shocked. I know I was and I don't regret my purchases ever.
  98. George Bishop from Fergus, Ontario, Canada writes: Again the CAW Union is not to blame for poor quality of Domestic vehicles, I note that GM is not building any more Yukon's or Tahoes in the USA because they are Gas users, the Chev Aveo is made in Korea by GM-Daewoo, its a small Car!
    I have just purchased a replacement for my GMC Van 1988! It still runs good and I keep it maintained but this time I chose to buy Toyota for the quality and more value on Trade In.
    All Makers of vehicles are Foreign owned,none are owned by Canadians, so the person who stated buying foreign was incorrect!
  99. K D from Canada writes: "I have just purchased a replacement for my GMC Van 1988! It still runs good and I keep it maintained but this time I chose to buy Toyota for the quality and more value on Trade In.
    All Makers of vehicles are Foreign owned,none are owned by Canadians, so the person who stated buying foreign was incorrect!"

    A lot of Canadian history and ownership in GM and GM does a lot of R&D in Canada. None of the others can claim that. They assemble and thats it.

    Toyota lives on its quality reputation even if