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New test to detect autism at 9 months

ANNE MCILROY

From Friday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 1:33 AM EDT 19/05/08

Test could be used as a fast, objective screening tool to identify babies that may develop autism ...Read the full article

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  1. In humble service of from Canada writes: For anyone who may be interested in discovering more of the truth regarding autism, may i suggest reading some interesting, yet unpublished research by Dr. Rebecca Carley. Google search 'Dr. Rebecca Carley'. Indeed, detecting autism is unecessary if it can be avoided altogether.
  2. Rob Bairos from Toronto, Canada writes: Hi In Humble. Do you a great disservice to the autistic and scientific community by propagating disproven conspiracies linking autism to vaccines. Its junk science disproven again and again. It only serves to increase the occurance of those diseases in unvaccinated people.
  3. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: The autism-vaccine conspiracy theorists are going to have to find some excuse to reject this work. It's too hard to blame vaccines for autism if the disease can be diagnosed before they are vaccinated. ------------------------------------------------- Rob Bairos your point is well made. I'd add that the anti-vaccine folks are endangering the lives and health of millions of children by campaigning against the only protection they have against many terrible infectious diseases. We are fortunate to live in a world where we don't regularly lose our kids to measles, rubella, and polio, but it seems that means many have forgotten how bad they are.
  4. Mark H from Indy, United States writes: 'In humble service of from Canada writes: For anyone who may be interested in discovering more of the truth regarding autism, may i suggest reading some interesting, yet unpublished research by Dr. Rebecca Carley'

    It's unpublished because it's utter nonsense. We have peer-review processes in medical journals for a reason - to weed out crap like the tripe Carley peddles.
  5. whatevah D from Canada writes: Rob and K McIntyre: I agree with both of you. I think the anti-vaccine stance is hogwash. And so does much of the medical community. For instance, check out quackwatch.com... and search under Autism.
  6. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: I knew someone would bring up the discredited and absurd vaccine link, but I didn't think it would be the first comment. Give it a rest. That debate has been had, and you have lost. While we're at it, the US government did NOT create AIDS in a laboratory, Big Pharma is NOT hiding the cure for cancer, and the CIA is NOT promoting heroin use in poor neighbourhoods (at least not directly).
  7. Expert Eel from Canada writes: If thimerisol does not cause autism, why was it removed from vaccines?

    Please answer this question without calling me a conspiracy theorist, it is a very sensible question that has yet to be answered.

    Also, I notice that the pro-vaccine crowd is crowing that this study justifies their theory that vaccines do not cause autism, did you read the part that say's the study identifies indivuduals with a 'high risk of having autism'?

    The study does not state the factor that actually does cause autism, just if the child has a risk.
  8. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: Expert Eel: Because there are other preservatives that can be used, and because some people were afraid of it. If there is a reason people are avoiding vaccines, however unfounded it may be, there is some value to removing that reason. Moreover, removal of thimerosal from vaccines had zero effect on autism rates. (See Danish study: www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/05/12/vaccines-do-not-cause-autism)
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Nobody knows all the causes of autism. We know it is in part hereditary because it runs in families. But the autism link has been discredited by numerous studies. There was a controversy, but for anyone who seriously follows medical science, it is over. There is no causative link between vaccination and autism.
  9. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: Links to a good page on some of the problems with the anti-vaccination movement:
    www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=9
    Also, some info on studies:
    scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/07/stillmoreevidencethatvaccinesdontc1.php
    scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/01/another    verybaddayforantivaccination.php
  10. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Mercury is a neurotoxin that causes autistic like symptoms in poeple who ingest too much of it.

    Please prove to me how Thimerisol (a mercury based preservative) in childhood vaccines does not have the same effect as ingesting mercury and also please tell me why is was removed from vaciines if it is so harmless?
  11. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Moreover, removal of thimerosal from vaccines had zero effect on autism rates.

    is that because aluminium has been replaced as a preservative?
  12. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Robert F. Kennedy The poisonous public attacks on Katie Wright this week -- for revealing that her autistic son Christian (grandson of NBC Chair Bob Wright), has recovered significant function after chelation treatments to remove mercury -- surprised many observers unfamiliar with the acrimonious debate over the mercury-based vaccine preservative Thimerosal. But the patronizing attacks on the mothers of autistic children who have organized to oppose this brain-killing poison is one of the most persistent tactics employed by those defending Thimerosal against the barrage of scientific evidence linking it to the epidemic of pediatric neurological disorders, including autism. Mothers of autistics are routinely dismissed as irrational, hysterical, or as a newspaper editor told me last week, 'desperate to find the reason for their children's illnesses,' and therefore, overwrought and disconnected. But my experience with these women is inconsistent with those patronizing assessments. Over the past two years I've met or communicated with several hundred of these women. Instead of a desperate mob of irrational hysterics, I've found the anti-Thimerosal activists for the most part to be calm, grounded and extraordinarily patient. As a group, they are highly educated. Many of them are doctors, nurses, schoolteachers, pharmacists, psychologists, Ph.D.s and other professionals. Many of them approached the link skeptically and only through dispassionate and diligent investigation became convinced that Thimerosal-laced vaccines destroyed their children's brains. As a group they have sat through hundreds of meetings and scientific conferences, and studied research papers and medical tests. They have networked with each other at meetings and on the Web. Along the way they have stoically endured the abuse routinely heaped upon them by the vaccine industry and public health authorities and casual dismissal by reporters and editors too lazy to do their jobs.
  13. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: Sodium is an alkaline metal that combusts violently when it comes in contact with water. Can you prove to me how salt doesn't make people explode when they eat it?

    Expert Eel, not all molecules that have mercury in it have the same effect on an organism. And we are all exposed to mercury on a daily basis through plenty of other sources (and in more harmful forms). Mercury in vaccines is safe because it breaks down into a form that is removed very quickly from the system, and the quantity of it is very small. It is a valid question to ask at what dose a given substance can be harmful to a child (anything can be safe in small enough quantities), and studies need to be done to determine that. In the case of thimerosal and autism, the studies have been done, and it was determined to be safe.
  14. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: How wonderful life would be if science could just throw out statistics and standards of evidence, and accept as fact anything that could be claimed through anecdotes of celebrities (or people related to celebrities).
  15. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: For a clue on which side of the controversy is science and which side is a bunch of people forming irrational conclusions from anecdotal evidence, let's consider what the World Health Organization says on the subject:
    '...there is currently no evidence of mercury toxicity in infants, children, or adults exposed to thiomersal in vaccines.' (www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/thiomersal/questions/en/)
    Or the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention:
    'There is no convincing scientific evidence of harm caused by the low doses of thimerosal in vaccines, except for minor reactions like redness and swelling at the injection site.' (www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal.htm)
    Or the Food and Drug Administration:
    'The committee concluded that this body of evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, and that hypotheses generated to date concerning a biological mechanism for such causality are theoretical only.' (www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimfaq.htm#q4)
  16. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Yes yes K, the WHO, FDA and CDC would be defendants in any lawsuit that involves mercury and vaccines.

    Do you have any non biased evidence?

    Until you get some, I will continue to believe the biased evidence that is on the side of parents of Autistic childrens who have been given no answers and little help.
  17. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Many of these women tell a story virtually identical to Katie Wright's -- I have now heard or seen this grim chronology recounted hundreds of times in conversations, e-mails and letters from mothers: At 2-1/2 years old, Christian Wright exceeded all milestones. He had 1,000 words, was toilet-trained, and enjoyed excellent social relations with his brother and others. Then his pediatrician gave him Thimerosal-laced vaccines. He cried all night, developed a fever and, over the coming months, this smart, healthy child disappeared. Christian lost the ability to speak, to interact with family members, to make eye contact or to point a finger. He engaged in stereotypical behavior -- screaming, head-banging, biting and uncontrolled aggression, and suffers continuously the agonizing pain of gastrointestinal inflammation. After hearing that story a couple dozen times, a rational person might do some more investigation. That's when one encounters the overwhelming science -- hundreds of research studies from dozens of countries showing the undeniable connection between mercury and Thimerosal and a wide range of neurological illnesses. In response to the overwhelming science, CDC and the pharmaceutical industry ginned up four European studies designed to disguise the link between autism and Thimerosal. Their purpose was to provide plausible deniability for the consequences of their awful decision to allow brain-killing mercury to be injected into our youngest children. Those deliberately deceptive and fatally flawed studies were authored by vaccine industry consultants and paid for by Thimerosal producers and published largely in compromised journals that neglected to disclose the myriad conflicts of their authors in violation of standard peer-review ethics. As I've shown elsewhere [see www.robertfkennedyjr.com], these studies were borderline fraud, using statistical deceptions to mislead the public and regulatory community.
  18. Expert Eel from Canada writes: The CDC and IOM base their defense of Thimerosal on these flimsy studies, their
    own formidable reputations, and their faith that journalists won't take the time
    to critically read the science. Meanwhile, the bureaucrats are simultaneously
    using their influence, energies and clout in a desperate bid to derail and
    defund and suppress any scientific study that may verify the link between
    Thimerosal and brain disorders. These would include epidemiological studies of
    the Amish-home-schooled kids and other unvaccinated American cohorts. The
    federal agencies have refused to release the massive public health information
    accumulated in their Vaccine Safety Database (VSD) in order to keep independent
    scientists from reviewing
    evidence that could prove the link. They are muzzling or blackballing scientists
    who want to conduct such studies.

    Ironically, it is the same voices that once blamed autism on 'bad parenting,'
    and 'uninvolved' moms that are now faulting these mothers for being too
    involved.
  19. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: Non-biased evidence? This is the problem with all conspiracy theories. Any authority who debunks it is automatically 'in on it'. How did they 'get to' the New England Journal of Medicine, precisely? (content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/13/1281)

    Or the Journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics? (pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/793)

    To accept the autism-vaccine link, you have to eliminate all biased sources. And by 'biased', you have to mean 'scientific'.

    Can you produce links for the 'hundreds of research studies from dozens of countries showing the undeniable connection between mercury and Thimerosal'? And by that, I don't mean a handful of discredited studies by a half dozen researchers. Because I've read those already.
  20. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: (You'll notice I skipped over your ridiculous claim that someone could reasonably sue the World Health Organization over the use of thimerosal in vaccines.)

    I'd like to highlight the conclusion of the AAAP study I linked above:
    'Studies do not demonstrate a link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and ASD, and the pharmacokinetics of ethylmercury make such an association less likely. Epidemiologic studies that support a link demonstrated significant design flaws that invalidate their conclusions. Evidence does not support a change in the standard of practice with regard to administration of thimerosal-containing vaccines in areas of the world where they are used.'
  21. Expert Eel from Canada writes: To accept the autism-vaccine link, you have to eliminate all biased sources. And by 'biased', you have to mean 'scientific'.

    not at all, I fully support all scientific studies, that are not financed by large pharmaceutical companies or defendants in any pending lawsuits.

    I would also like to point out that this line of reasoning is non productive.

    What is the cause of autism?

    Tell me that it is just a coincidense that mercury poisoning and autism have the exact same symptoms??
  22. Expert Eel from Canada writes: K now you've called me a conspiracy theorist and ridiculous.

    I'm very insulted by your lack of ability to have a rational discussion and also find the links that you provide that insult and downplay the role of parents of Autistic children extremely short sighted and narrow minded.

    You are obviously living in a world with rose colored glasses on or work for the pharmaceutical industry judjing on how hard your emplty arguments try to defend them.

    You obviously have no experience with Children who have Autism and will bid you good day.
  23. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: Producing assertions from numerous scientific authorities is not productive in deciding what is a valid scientific conclusion? Do you really think that?
  24. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: I didn't call you ridiculous. I said claiming the WHO is misrepresenting vaccination evidence because of lawsuit worries is ridiculous. Because it is.

    Sorry if you feel insulted by me referring to anti-vaccination as a conspiracy theory. But it basically amounts to people claiming a scientific consensus is suppressing vital evidence for selfish reasons. This has no more merit than creationism or global warming denial. It is, in fact, a conspiracy theory.

    My claims have been based on nothing but reason and evidence.
  25. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: And, for what it's worth (actually nothing), I know many people with ASD.

    This is another strange fallacy of the anti-vaccination group: people who have relatives with autism have unique insight into what causes it. This amounts to putting anecdotal evidence ahead of rigorous experimentation, which is indeed what the entire anti-vaccination movement continuously promotes.
  26. Lisa Goddard from Canada writes: K McIntyre, call it a conspiracy theory if you want, but if it were your child what would you rather they get, the measles or Autism? If you say autism, obviously you neither have an autistic child or know a parent with one.
    I unfortunately know far too many.

    Also, have you looked into the incidence rate of autism and the (lack of) government funding provided to help fight/find cure against other disease, specifically in the US? It's mind-blowing.
  27. Expert Eel from Canada writes: when I type thimerosal ingredients, why do the following sites float to the top and not sites sponsored by big pharma companies??

    http://www.rense.com/general59/vvac.htm

    http://www.wnho.net/vaccineingredients.htm

    http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/vaccine    awareness/ingredients.html

    I know that some here will just call me ridiculous and a conspiracy theorist, but I want to know what the pharmaceutical companies are hiding??

    There is no lack of links to pharmaceutical stories ripping Mothers of Children who are autistic and plenty of links claiming to debunk conspiracy theories, but none offer any alternate theories as to what does cause autism.

    Why are there no real links from the big pharma companies that educate and inform to allow me to take an educated stance on the subject?
  28. Expert Eel from Canada writes: 'This is another strange fallacy of the anti-vaccination group: people who have relatives with autism have unique insight into what causes it.'

    Uhhh right K.

    From now on when I hire someone I will base that hiring decision on conjexture and not experience.
  29. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: 'call it a conspiracy theory if you want, but if it were your child what would you rather they get, the measles or Autism?'

    You do know that even in countries with good health care systems, measles kills 1 in 20 kids who get it, right?

    It is 1 in 4 in some places without access to good health care.

    Yes, I have looked at the incidence rate of autism. There are a lot of ideas about what's causing it. One is that we are understanding autism better and classifying more kids as having ASD who years ago would have been missed (and classified just as 'weird').

    I have some idea what it's like to deal with autism. Close friends and relatives of mine have had to do it. But that doesn't make it right to find a handy scapegoat and launch a campaign against it.
  30. In humble service of from Canada writes: I ask you, if there is even the slightest chance that Dr. Carley is correct, and such a chance exists proved by the very fact that the debate itself exists, what decision would you make for your child when it comes time to vaccinate? Some would choose to err on the side of caution, and it is for those people, the uninformed, the suggestion of Dr. Carley is made.

    Beware the science that makes authortative conclusions and leaves no room for further understanding. For it denies even it's own fundamental law, the scientific method. Beware the delicate veil of ignorance it creates.
  31. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: 'Why are there no real links from the big pharma companies that educate and inform to allow me to take an educated stance on the subject?'

    I'd prefer to go to places like the World Health Organization or the Centers for Disease Control for information on things like that.

    I've provided a number of links on this very thread to help you though. I notice you didn't comment on the American Academy of Pediatrics link, or the New England Journal of Medicine. I think that's because you haven't found a good way to discredit highly reputable sources of medical information.
  32. Expert Eel from Canada writes: I noticed that you didn't comment on my observation that this test is a method of determining risk and not an actual test of whether the subject actually has autism.

    I also noticed that you didn't comment on my links for Themerisol ingredients, I guess that you are still trying to come up with a ridiculous biased theory to discredit them.

    I hope that you sleep well at night providing misinformation about Autism for the few pennies that the pharmaceutical companies pay you.

    I only float this as a theory because you claim to have no relations with Autism, yet you staunchly and quickly defend pharma and attack parents of children with Autism.

    What's your angle?
  33. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: 'Some would choose to err on the side of caution, and it is for those people, the uninformed, the suggestion of Dr. Carley is made.'

    Since when is choosing not to protect your children from potentially fatal diseases 'erring on the side of caution'?

    If you are wondering which way to go, here's where you need to start:
    Measles -- Kills hundreds of thousands of children worldwide every year.
    Vaccine against measles -- Prevents measles. Known to cause irritation and sometimes a short-lived fever. Received by millions of children every year without any evidence of long term harm. Some people claim it has a link to autism, but this has been repeatedly refuted in the medical literature, and no government health agency or pediatric medical institution thinks the claim is valid.

    That is laying out the facts to help people make an informed decision.
  34. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Eli Lilly knew that Thimerisol is dangerous

    http://www.rense.com/general21/vacc.htm

    if thimerisol is so harmless then why sponsor proactive legislation to prevent any lawsuits against Eli Lilly that was secretly hidden in a homeland security bill:

    http://www.thimerosal-litigation.com/

    and as far as that weak salt analogy that was floated earlier, salt is not a toxic substance that Eli Lilly defined should not come into contact with Human beings the way that they did for Thimerisol.

    sorry, Eli Lilly removed their web page that describes the harmful effects of Thimerisol, here is another link

    http://tinyurl.com/688r7g
  35. Expert Eel from Canada writes: K McIntyre is stressing how important vaccines are, and I agree, they are very important in beinng a proactive method to avoid disease.

    HOWEVER, vaccines can be given in a single dose that is preservative free, ask your doctor
  36. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: 'I noticed that you didn't comment on my observation that this test is a method of determining risk and not an actual test of whether the subject actually has autism.' If babies at an early age are already exhibiting symptoms of autism, and if this becomes a high accuracy indicator (which the researchers say they are working on), then the autism-vaccination link becomes impossible. If that link were real, such a test would be impossible, because the symptoms would not show before the vaccinatoin is received. 'I also noticed that you didn't comment on my links for Themerisol ingredients,' No discrediting is needed. All those ingredients are in very small quantities, and if you have compelling evidence that any one of them is causing long term harm in children, then by all means submit it to a medical journal of peer review and publication. For some reason nobody else is doing that. The arguments of the anti-vaccination movement mostly seem to reduce to: * I have a child with autism who was also vaccinated * Big Pharma is really bad * Look at all those chemicals! I have wondered if people saw all the chemicals that are in tea, would they still drink it? (www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/farmacy2.pl?198) It's just a collection of logical fallacies. This, combined with ignoring the many comprehensive peer reviewed studies that have effectively discredited the link between autism and vaccination, is why the movement is classified as a conspiracy theory.
  37. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: Darn. The G&M submission engine has started stripping out line breaks from my entries again.
  38. My eyes are open, Are yours? from Canada writes: So, there are no children who were not vaccinated, who nevertheless developed Autism?
  39. Expert Eel from Canada writes: My eyes are open, yes I will go on a ledge and say that there are children who were not vaccinated but still aquired Autism.

    I can't say often enough, no one knows the cause of Autism and so far, no one has disproven to me that vaccine preservatives are not a cause.

    Vaccines with high amounts of Thimerisol may not cause Autism in everyone, but it is an environmental factor that can be included with Mercury in the food chain, mercury in coal generated emmissions and mercury in our teeth.

    The cause is most likely environmental, some people are exposed to more mercury and also some people have a lower tolerance to it.
  40. Expert Eel from Canada writes: 'No discrediting is needed. All those ingredients are in very small quantities'

    yes yes K, Abbey Hoffman also thought that he was self administering a very small amount of LSD too, the first time.
  41. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: '...no one has disproven to me that vaccine preservatives are not a cause.'

    And yet the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Medical Toxicology, the National Academy of Sciences, the Food and Drug Administration, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the World Health Organization, the Public Health Agency of Canada, and the European Medicines Agency all say the evidence against a causative link between thimerosal and autism is conclusive.

    Is there something you know that they don't? Or are you going to fall back on the 'Look at all those chemicals' argument for a causal link? Or maybe the 'drug companies are bad' argument?
  42. Expert Eel from Canada writes: 'Is there something you know that they don't? Or are you going to fall back on the 'Look at all those chemicals' argument for a causal link? Or maybe the 'drug companies are bad' argument? '

    Sorry, but I haven't fallen back on the look at all those chemicals argument, I fall back on the 'Look at all that mercury' argument and I'm still waiting for you to answer why mercury poisoning and Autism have the same symptoms.
  43. Expert Eel from Canada writes: FYI, the reason that I fall back on the 'Look at all that Mercury' argument is because I used to have 15 amalgam fillings and was diagnosed with diverticulitis and was also prone to bronchitis at the age 32. 3 years ago, I underwent a 4 hour procedure in the dental chair to replace all of the mercury fillings with the newer composite materiel, I also started chelating in a sauna. I haven't had an attack of diverticulitis or bronchitis since. Here is what Health Canada says about Alamgam fillings: Mercury is released from amalgam in several ways. Mercury vapour is continuously evolved from the filling surface and this release is stimulated by chewing, tooth brushing or bruxism (grinding the teeth). The process continues as long as the filling is in the tooth. The vapour can be inhaled or dissolved in saliva and swallowed. Mercury particles are also released from the filling surface through wear or corrosion and are swallowed. A third route of exposure is through mercury particles embedded in the gums or other soft tissue of the mouth during the removal of old fillings. The most significant route of exposure is believed to be inhalation of vapour. A fraction of the inhaled mercury vapour is absorbed by the lungs and retained by the body. The mercury accumulates in all body organs and tissues, but principally in the kidney, with lower amounts in the brain, lung, liver, gastrointestinal tract and exocrine glands. Elemental mercury in the blood can cross the placenta and the blood-brain barrier. http://tinyurl.com/5g86en current evidence does not indicate that dental amalgam is causing illness in the general population. It also says that a ban is not justified, and neither is the removal of existing sound amalgam fillings http://tinyurl.com/4umew2 here is also another interesting link that I'm sure K will say is a ridiculous conspiracy theory: CDC & WHO Crimes Against Humanity http://www.mercuryexposure.org/
  44. Expert Eel from Canada writes: The World Health Organization has urged CDC against the banning of Thimerosal in U.S. vaccines since that prohibition might discredit WHO's third world inoculation programs. WHO, with U.S. funding, is now injecting children in developing countries with the same amounts of Thimerosal we were giving American kids at their highest exposures, but in a shorter time period.

    This supports the fact that mercury is a neurotoxin in all required vaccines, from schools to medical staff and flu shots and that the 50% mercury in every dental amalgam filling given over the last century and still propogated into all welfare recepients is cripling patients and the health system.
  45. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Symptoms of Mercury Poisoning
    By the Environmental Protection Agency
    Impairment of the peripheral vision
    Disturbances in sensations ('pins and needles' feelings, numbness) usually in the hands feet and sometimes around the mouth
    Lack of coordination of movements, such as writing
    Impairment of speech, hearing, walking;
    Muscle weakness
    Skin rashes
    Mood swing
    Memory loss
    Mental disturbance

    http://tinyurl.com/55pcqv
  46. Sarah Bee from Canada writes: Nicely argued, Expert Eel.
  47. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: So you are ascribing ulterior motives to the WHO and CDC (you do have documentary evidence of those sinister claims, right?), to what do you attribute the contradiction of your opinion by the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Medical Toxicology, the National Academy of Sciences, the Food and Drug Administration, the Public Health Agency of Canada, and the European Medicines Agency? Is it because you know more about mercury than they do? Do you have medical credentials greater than the doctors and scientists who wrote the reports that discredit the link? What they say is this: Yes, mercury is bad. But thimerosal has mercury in a less toxic form than some (ethylmercury) which clears relatively quickly from the body. Ten years ago it was an open question whether this might have neurological side effects such as autism in the dose that was present in vaccines. Since then many studies have been conducted, and they have shown conclusively that the autism link is unfounded. So you can argue mercury is bad all you want. It is bad. But all things in low enough doses are safe (arsenic is in every glass of water you drink, you know). And the empirical evidence is in that the form of mercury in thimerosal, and the dose in vaccines, doesn't do what you think it does. You have no way of disputing that empirical evidence, which means from a purely scientific basis you have no leg to stand on in this argument.
  48. Expert Eel from Canada writes: 'you do have documentary evidence of those sinister claims, right' Oh yes K, I do, come over to my house for tea and we can go over my folders full of evidence. 'Is it because you know more about mercury than they do?' No actually, they know more about mercury than I do and that's why they are on this campaign of misinformation, it's called 'OOPS, WE FU*KED UP AND NOW WE BETTER CYA' 'What they say is this: Yes, mercury is bad. But thimerosal has mercury in a less toxic form than some (ethylmercury) which clears relatively quickly from the body.' nice theory, where's your proof? 'Do you have medical credentials greater than the doctors and scientists who wrote the reports that discredit the link?' No I don't, I also did not allow millions of children to be poisoned because of my misjudgement either. K, I'm pretty sure that you don't have the accolades and credentials that these report writing doctors have, and for some reason, you choose to remain ignorant of at least 50% of the studies on the subject and you choose only to believe those studies that match your own opinion. I already told you that I don't trust your motives and feel that your debating skills are at less than par. You obviously are wearing your blinders and choose to remain ignorant, so why don't we just agree to disagree?
  49. Expert Eel from Canada writes: 'all things in low enough doses are safe' B.S.

    http://www.actionbioscience.org/environment/trautmann.html
  50. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: You assert that the entire world's medical community is suppressing evidence of substantial health risk to children because they are embarrassed, and you are insulted when someone calls you a conspiracy theorist?

    There wasn't misjudgment. When the claims of a vaccine-autism link started circulating widely, the FDA told drug companies to start removing it from vaccines because there were alternative preservatives. And, being good scientists, they recognized the need for further study to substantiate or refute the claims. Study results have come in over and over again over the last several years, and the conclusion reached based on them is that no link exists. This is exactly the way science is supposed to work.

    I am not ignorant of the studies you think support the vaccine-autism link. They are not 50% of the studies. There are only a handful, and they are seriously flawed. Twenty minutes of googling and you can find the analyses proving that.

    You choose to ignore reams of evidence because it doesn't agree with something you have decided is true. You cling dogmatically to a medical claim that every major medical institution and almost all medical doctors say is false. But I'm the one wearing blinders?
  51. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: And the link you provided on toxicity doesn't argue against that point that all chemicals are safe in low enough doses. It argues that toxic doses can vary based on a wide number of factors, so we have to be conservative about what we accept as a safe level based on our knowledge of biological response to those chemicals.

    The main point being we have to rely on empirical evidence to 'clarify cause-and-effect relationships between chemical exposures and potential health impacts.'

    This is precisely the basis on which health authorities are claiming vaccines do not cause autism.
  52. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: 'nice theory, where's your proof?'

    Links were posted above. Studies were referenced in them.
  53. Andrew E from Canada writes: 9 months... just in time for that abortion.
  54. Chris W from Toronto, Canada writes: To spell it out for those who STILL don't get it:

    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-1-17/50592.html
    Industry-Sponsored Research: A Can of Worms

    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-9-10/59638.html
    Drug Company-Funded Statin Studies Biased

    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-1-31/65104.html
    Antidepressant Studies Found to be Biased and Misleading

    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-4-17/69373.html
    Ghostwriting and Undeclared Interests Common in Medical Publishing

    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-4-22/69596.html
    Misleading Medical Research Common

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_04/b4068052092994.htm
    Do Cholesterol Drugs Do Any Good?

    http://marcjosephnutrition.com/blog/2007/02/04/vaccination-schedule-expands-350-over-past-25-years/
    Vaccination Schedule Expands 250% Over Past 25 Years

    http://marcjosephnutrition.com/blog/2007/06/27/survey-adhd-autism-rates-much-higher-in-vaccinated-boys/
    Survey: ADHD & Autism Rates Much Higher in Vaccinated Boys

    So-called 'heath'care has been completely corrupted and broken in the name of profit, domination, power and control. In its place remains a new industry of disease management and allopathy. Increasing, recurring revenues are the key to higher share prices and it is this new (over the past 25 years) business model which makes it all possible. These people are not to be trusted for ANYTHING, least of all with our lives and the lives of our children. Nothing can make up for what they've done, but if there's any justice, they'll be forced to fork out tens of billions of dollars to those whom they've betrayed.
  55. Expert Eel from PettaOttaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: Yes Chris W from Toronto, there seem to be some people on this board who will blindly accept what they read and will not question anything if they suspect that it comes from someone smarter than them.

    I happen to ask questions, and even though doctors are smart, they are not always right.

    One question that I asked my first dentist was 'Where on this X-ray does it mean I need another filling?' when his answer came back 'It takes a special eye to see it.' I left his office and never returned.

    K McIntyre I just don't understand why you keep trying to argue that mercury based preservatives are safe. You seem blind to the fact that all of these organizations with smart people that you seem to follow so blindly, are all responsible for allowing millions of children to be injected with a harmful poison, and are now just trying to cover up their liability.

    Autism wasn't very common until very recently, when I was a child, I never met anyone who was autistic, now I know over 50 Autistic people under the age of 20. The medical industry which should be helping and investigating this phenomenon is in denial and attack mode, is crying 'It's not my fault' and has nothing positive to offer on the subject, in short, they failed miserably with the Autism epidemic.
  56. Expert Eel from PettaOttaOshawawawawa, Canada writes: from on eof K's links

    'In addition, the authors did not present methods on how the ethylmercury exposure estimates of 37.5 µg and 87.5 µg were determined. Because VAERS reports do not include a child's entire immunization history and because vaccines that are reported to have been received before an AE are not verified by medical record review, estimated ethylmercury exposure from the reported vaccination visit may be inaccurate and total previous exposure would not be possible to estimate.'

    my philosophy is keep it simple.

    K I've gone to each and every one of your links, they are all long winded, complicated, defensive, spend the first third trying to convince me how safe Thimerosal is , the second third convincing me how effectively they have removed it from vaccines (still no one has answered to me why remove thimerosal if it is so safe) and the final third trying to convince me that everyone else is wrong.

    it looks more to me like a laundry list of excuses as to why these organizations are not responsible for the autism epidemic.
  57. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: 'K McIntyre I just don't understand why you keep trying to argue that mercury based preservatives are safe.'

    Because there is abundant evidence that it doesn't cause autism, and no real evidence that it does. This is the only rational conclusion that can be reached from scientific medical literature.

    I have a little trouble blindly accepting your* claim that the entire medical community is suppressing evidence about harm being caused to hundreds of thousands of children. This is an extraordinary claim, and as such requires extraordinary evidence before anyone should believe it is true.

    You may not realize it, but the anti-vaccination movement employs all the classic methods of conspiracy theorists:
    * Invent ulterior motives for all the subject authorities, who unanimously agree you are wrong
    * Accuse opponents of being overly credulous
    * Build a self-reinforcing community of fellow believers, who circulate weak or fallacious evidence and accept it without criticism because of confirmation bias
    Assert that speculative claims by non-experts can carry equal evidential weight to published peer reviewed research in reputed publications
  58. Mark H from Indy, United States writes: If we're going to accept the single-bullet theory that mercury causes autism, why have autism rates continued to rise for the last 5 years, even though mercury-containing vaccines are no longer used in north america?

    Oh, you can't answer that question? Quel surprise.
  59. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Mark H from Indy, United States writes: If we're going to accept the single-bullet theory that mercury causes autism, why have autism rates continued to rise for the last 5 years, even though mercury-containing vaccines are no longer used in north america?

    I already answered this, it's because aluminium has replaced mercury as a preservative.
  60. Expert Eel from Canada writes: 'You assert that the entire world's medical community is suppressing evidence of substantial health risk to children because they are embarrassed, and you are insulted when someone calls you a conspiracy theorist?'

    No, now you are putting words in my mouth, you seem to have this childish belief that all of the world's doctors agree that thimerisal does not cause autism, I wish that I could live in your fantasy world, but I know too many good DAN doctors who disagree with your little myopic theories.

    There are some good doctors out there and smart ones too, I has a really good DAN doctor working with my Autistic boys until the college of chiropracters threatened to remove her license if she continued to work with Autistic kids.
  61. Expert Eel from Canada writes: also, using bold type and continually insulting me will not change my mind K.
  62. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: Sorry about the bold type, it's not deliberate. It's a bug in the submission engine: it takes the first asterisk in your post, and the last asterisk, and bolds everything in between. I don't know why the Globe web developers haven't fixed that yet.

    As much as you may dislike my 'childish' belief that science is the proper way to determine what is true and what is false in medicine, it is the way most doctors think. Accordingly, the vast majority of doctors in the world, and all of the institutions that represent them, are on the same side as me on this issue.

    Chiropractors, by the way, don't necessarily have to be included in the 'world's medical community' group, as they are not medical doctors. The far-too-common practice of chiropractors advising patients not to vaccinate their children (and thus put their lives at unnecessary risk) has served to highlight the lack of science-based education that chiropractic schools provide. Real doctors mostly tend not to pretend they know more about another doctors' area of specialization than the specialists do.
  63. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: And I know I'm not going to change your mind, Expert Eel. I've argued with too many conspiracy theorists to think that. It seems that when somebody locks onto a conclusion, and over time confirmation bias causes fallacious evidence to accumulate and help pad the belief into certainty, no amount of solid evidence will dislodge it.

    Fundamentally I think the problem is that most people don't understand how to distinguish real evidence from fake evidence. For anti-vaccination, disproportionate weight is given to anecdotes and post hoc ergo propter hoc arguments, neither of which are valid from a scientific point of view.
  64. Expert Eel from Canada writes: 'As much as you may dislike my 'childish' belief that science is the proper way to determine what is true and what is false in medicine'

    again you put words in my mouth, I believe that proper science is the way to go here, my defintion of science is systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation, what's yours?

    What I dislike about you is your childish belief that anybody smarter than you must automatically be right.
  65. Expert Eel from Canada writes: 'Chiropractors, by the way, don't necessarily have to be included in the 'world's medical community' group, as they are not medical doctors.'

    their is that eating up of propoganda again, chiropractors have as much schooling as a medical doctor and also have to specialize in the CNS.

    But don't get me wrong, I have met some Quack chiropractors that try to push the 'sublaxation' BS in your face to make a few bucks. It all depends on the individual.
  66. Expert Eel from Canada writes: 'The far-too-common practice of chiropractors advising patients not to vaccinate their children (and thus put their lives at unnecessary risk) has served to highlight the lack of science-based education that chiropractic schools provide. Real doctors mostly tend not to pretend they know more about another doctors' area of specialization than the specialists do. '

    Again B.S. have you spent 6 years in chiropractic school?

    If not then you can't be making an assessment from anything other than someone else's point of view.

    And the way that you phrase your criticism of chiropractic schools, it sounds as though you attended many.
  67. Expert Eel from Canada writes: 'I think the problem is that most people don't understand how to distinguish real evidence from fake evidence'

    We hate most in others, that which we hate most in ourselves K.

    Also (I'm tired of saying this) I'm not anti-vaccine, I am anti-thimerisol and other harmful chemicals in vaccines. for a few dollars more, our doctors can provide us with a single dose vaccine that does not contain preservatives, just for a moment take a leap of faith and assume that I am right and it is harmful to inject mercury or aluminum into your bloodstream, why take the chance and do it when you don't have to?
  68. Mark H from Indy, United States writes: 'Expert Eel from Canada writes: Mark H from Indy, United States writes: If we're going to accept the single-bullet theory that mercury causes autism, why have autism rates continued to rise for the last 5 years, even though mercury-containing vaccines are no longer used in north america?

    I already answered this, it's because aluminium has replaced mercury as a preservative'

    Al and Hg do not have the same effects on the body at the doses present in vaccines. I'll bet you don't wear deoderant either; pity.
  69. Expert Eel from Canada writes: Mark H, do you know what causes alsheimer's?

    no, I didn't think so, your mind is too busy leafing through my bathroom garbage.

    BTW, anyone with a second grade intelligence understands the difference between applying de-oderant to the skin surface and injectin aluminum into the bloodstream.

    anyone except you.
  70. Expert Eel from Canada writes: I agree with someone's earlier statement that nothing is poisonous in low doses, but when you consider how much mercury contamination that there is in the environment, we eat it, we breath it, we drink it, we use it in vaccines, we use it in dental fillings.

    The FDA guidlines on safe exposure is based on 1 environmental factor.

    maybe some of us are born with a weakness to mercury and some of us have a greater tolerance. If this is the case, then everyone will be affected differently by different doses, maybe the rise in the number of autistic cases is due to some kind of threshold in the environment that has been exceeded. maybe all of this finger pointing is a distraction from solving the problem (which would be to remove or reduce the environmental contamination).
  71. spicydoc--That'll do, spicydoc, that'll do... from Canada writes: My 4 year old son is Autistic. We have video of him talking and playing purposefully on his first birthday. At 13 months, his pediatrician wanted to get his vaccivations 'up to speed', and gave him the MMR as well as a few 'newer' vaccines that we had to pay for. My son received 10 antigens that day--the successful lawsuit in the US was 9 antigens. 5 days later, he got sick, febrile, red-faced and lethargic. The pediatrician was adamant that the vaccines had nothing to do with it. My son never recovered. He is now _almost_ as verbal as he was on his first birthday. I am working insane hours to pay over 3 grand a month on therapy, since we are still on a wait list. Our marriage is in a constant state of crisis. Raising our son is 24/7/325 heartbreak mixed with small steps of progress. My older son is beginning to resent how his younger brother dominates our life and keeps us away from normal activities. This is all an anecdote, but our lives are completely upside down because of this disorder. People can argue all they want, but I agree with Eel. The reason this will never be settled is because 100's of billions are at stake. Anyway, back to working on getting my son to say 'I love You' when I say it to him.
  72. Expert Eel from Canada writes: spicydoc, I have never felt closer to you, my 2 sons were diagnosed at age 3 and were put on the waiting list, we used chelation and detoxification alongside of IBI therapy (which the Ontario govt pay's for thank God because I can't afford $80000 a year for the 2 boys) they are both in their second year of IBI and are returning to this world.

    They both say 'I love you' independantly now and I know that I am very lucky because there are way too many still untreated on the list.

    we have come a long way, but we still have a long way to go.
  73. Chris W from Toronto, Canada writes: Mark H from Indy, United States writes: 'If we're going to accept the single-bullet theory that mercury causes autism, why have autism rates continued to rise for the last 5 years, even though mercury-containing vaccines are no longer used in north america?

    Oh, you can't answer that question? Quel surprise.'

    I can. Your information about thiomersal no longer being incorporated in vaccines is inaccurate. Please visit the list of links I posted yesterday at about 6:30 AM for more info. Also, see below.

    From http://marcjosephnutrition.com/blog/2007/06/18/the-un-truth-about-autism/

    'In 1999, the FDA asked vaccine manufacturers to remove thimerosal from child vaccinations after adding the mercury contained in the existing vaccination schedule and finding that it well exceeded government exposure safety levels (by more than 100 fold). Existing vaccine stocks with thimerosal were not ordered recalled, so children may have received shots containing mercury for several years following the FDA request.

    Today, thimerosal remains in the vast majority of flu shots (now part of the recommended vaccination schedule) given to children, adults, and even pregnant women. The CDC places no warning on giving mercury-containing flu shots to any group. Additionally, thimerosal is found in several other adult vaccines, including the tetanus-diphtheria booster shot. You can find a complete list here [http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm].'

    As for your (non)claims about aluminum hydroxide, it's been conclusively shown to affect excitotoxicity and death of the motor neurons of mice, and is also linked to Gulf War Syndrome. Please see the peer-reviewed scientific paper here which illustrates these points- http://tinyurl.com/6y8kv6
  74. Shane Thompson from The T Dot, Canada writes: So.... nobody really has any bloody clue what causes autism. Lovely, just lovely. This discussion thread was very informative nonetheless. Thank you Eel, K McIntyre and the rest.
  75. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: Expert Eel wrote: 'What I dislike about you is your childish belief that anybody smarter than you must automatically be right.' ------------ It's not about who is smart. It's about who has done valid scientific work in answering a particular question, published peer reviewed work, which is then examined and criticized by others. Are you familiar with the term 'scientific consensus', and why it is significant?
  76. K McIntyre from Oshawa, Canada writes: Chris W wrote: 'Your information about thiomersal no longer being incorporated in vaccines is inaccurate.'

    Few young children receive flu shots. So if thimerosal was causing autism, there would have been a drop in autism rates when they removed it from all vaccines other than the flu shot.

    While aluminum hydroxide can also be toxic (you know tylenol can kill people in a large enough dose too, right), is the suggestion that it has precisely the same effect on the brain as ethylmercury? Wouldn't that be a pretty big coincidence? Are there studies somewhere suggesting that they behave identically in the body?
  77. Mark H from Indy, United States writes: 'Today, thimerosal remains in the vast majority of flu shots (now part of the recommended vaccination schedule) given to children, adults, and even pregnant women. '

    Chris w - you're correct, of course. I thought we were containinig the discussion to infant vaccinations (rubella, measles, etc). However all you have to do to get a flu vaccine without thimerosal is ask for one. It costs $14 extra in my neck of the woods. Down here, the flu vaccine is recommended, but still considered optional - no one would look at you funny for not getting one for your kids, but they would if you told them that they didn't get their measles shot, if you take my meaning.
  78. Mark H from Indy, United States writes: 'Expert Eel from Canada writes: Mark H, do you know what causes alsheimer's?

    no, I didn't think so, your mind is too busy leafing through my bathroom garbage.

    BTW, anyone with a second grade intelligence understands the difference between applying de-oderant to the skin surface and injectin aluminum into the bloodstream.

    anyone except you'

    Second-grade intelligence is about the level the mercury-autism folks function at, so I'll take it as a compliment. Science funtions on absolutes, not 'could's'. Maybe ethylmercury and aluminum do cause autism, I'm perfectly willing to accept that. However, by any reasonable scientific standard, that has not been borne out. There's no conspiracy.

    Glad to hear you wear deoderant.
  79. W E from Canada writes: Eel, I understand that as the parent of autistic children, you're looking for an explanation because I'm sure that what you're going through is very difficult, and I'll consider myself very fortunate if my children grow up healthy. It is on this note that I respectfully disagree with your stance that thimerisol causes autism, and throw in a European (denmark) study of nearly 500,000 children to support my side.

    http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/290/13/1763

    Conclusion: The results do not support a causal relationship between childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines and development of autistic-spectrum disorders.

    500,000 subjects provides a lot of power to a study.

    I'm curious if your sons have any of the other risk factors? Relatives with ASD, prematurity, exposure to other environmental chemicals? These are obviously very personal questions and I don't expect you to answer them. I think this is a very difficult debate due to the fact that no one really knows what the cause is.
  80. Expert Eel from Canada writes: 'Science funtions on absolutes, not 'could's'. '

    some chumps just don't understand the difference between a 'theory' and a 'theorum'
  81. Expert Eel from Canada writes: W E from Canada writes: Eel,