Skip navigation

 Login or Register | Member Centre

U.S. deserter wins appeal in fight for refugee status

TU THANH HA

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 10:33 PM EDT 04/07/08

Dodging action that ‘abuses or humiliates' enough to support asylum claim, Federal Court says ...Read the full article

This conversation is closed

  1. Will Farnaby from writes: A great day for Canada.

    This strikes a blow for justice, and against the explicitly declared Republican Party of Canada / Conservative / Alliance / Reform policy of incrementally pushing this country towards becoming a far right, indeed well-nigh police, state.

    'A married father of four, Key served as a combat engineer for eight months in Iraq 2003. He said American soldiers committed savage acts against civilians and routinely killed innocent people.'
  2. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: A good call, I think. I feel sorry for these guys. One experienced soldier with a good record and previous deployments, as I recall, claimed refugee status on the grounds that he could not, with good conscience, participate in US operations as contrary to international law, and contrary to the U.S. constitution in that it recognises international law as superior to U.S. law. As I understand U.S. judgments, however, they assert that only the President has the ability to interpret U.S. obligations under treaties and that there is no court competent to try him for wrong doing (that's pretty much George W.'s legal position). Given that he was sworn to uphold the U.S. constitution, even at the cost of his life, given his prior demonstrated willingness to do so, and given that in Canada we essentially agree that U.S. actions in Iraq are contrary to the U.N. Charter, I felt truly sorry for him when his appeal was refused.

    No fear or favour. Who stands once under the Maple Leaf is free forever!
  3. Tax my toilet paper, please Dion - I will use less from Canada writes: Cowards of the world - welcome to Canada. Our liberal activist judges grant you a free pass to whatever you like. Offended by our laws? Let us know, we'll change 'em! And anyone who protests will automatically be called a racist.

    Sit back, put up your feet, let us know what we can do for you.
  4. Some Guy from Canada writes: about bloody time
  5. Daniel Cunningham from Victoria, writes: Good. Welcome to Canada. Cheers :-)
  6. Zaphod Beeblebrox from Regina, Canada writes: Joshua Key and others like him have no place in Canada. Unlike the draft dodgers of the Vietnam War of the 60's, he signed on voluntarily and swore the oath. Send him packing, and lets hope the door doesn't hit him on the way out.

    Tax my toilet paper, please Dion - I will use less from Canada hit the nail squarely on the head. Great piece guy!
  7. M M from SK, Canada writes: What happened to the other comment section on the same report? oh I know - it was running against the guy's claim so I guess G & M had to restart it to get the comments they wanted.
  8. Edmond Dusablon from United States writes: Will Farnaby from wrote: 'A great day for Canada. This strikes a blow for justice, and against the explicitly declared Republican Party of Canada / Conservative / Alliance / Reform policy of incrementally pushing this country towards becoming a far right, indeed well-nigh police, state.'

    Police state? You must be referring to your Human Rights Commission kangaroo courts.

    As for the deserter, he doesn't strike me as the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree. He's all yours.
  9. Derek Lambert from Edmonton, Canada writes: I certainly agree with this decision. The song War Pigs by Black Sabbath comes to mind when I think about this issue. Basically the young and poor are recruited to goto war for the interests of the rich. When those who are sent to war finally realize wht they are doing, they have to be a'coward' and desert.

    Deserters are welcome by me and I am glad to live in a country that tolerates this action.
  10. Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring Island, Canada writes: Let 'em stay; this people signed up to defend their country, not wage this stupid war. We need more people of conscience like this.

    Canada has welcomed those fleeing persecution since the time of the Underground Railroad - we should continue this proud tradition.
  11. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: I'll have to ask the obvious question of, why would you join the military if you don't believe in what you might have to do? It's the military not the boy scouts. You know damn well that you might be called to fight if the situation occurs and fighting is not pretty no matter where, against whom, or when it happens. Iraq, Afghanistan are no different from any other place in the past that war has occured. I spent time in Bosnia and I have my memories of things that no living human being should ever have to see or endure and I had to do things that I'm not proud of and didn't particularilly want to do....ever. I joined of my own free will, like this man did, and I fully understood what may have to be asked of me, like this man did, I did my duty to the best of my ability, unlike this man. There is no draft in place in the US at this time. Hasn't been since the Vietnam conflict. He joined of his own free will. Granting him assylum, other than in an institution, is absolutely disgracefull. He made a choice, signed a contract, took their money and now doesn't want to honor his contract and Canada bails him out? What kind of message does this send to the world? What kind of people do we want to populate this country, cowards and theives. This decision is absurd and completely wrong in my opinion. Tax my toilet paper, please Dion - I will use less from Canada, you are 100% right. This country is going into the toilet faster than Nazi Germany with all these stupid Liberal ideals. We've become nothing more than a massive refugee camp.
  12. William Doyle from Prince George, Canada writes: This is a good day for the people who do not want to be a part of the George bush killing fields. The war that these young soldiers are asked to serve in is an illegal war. bush is the one who should be in court for his war crimes!
  13. Mistaken Identity from Canada writes: The judge has made a mistake. His rationale would be valid if the deserter was deliberately ordered to assault and kill civilians. How can one reasonably believe that was the case?

    In essence the deserter is claiming that war crimes were committed, he should rightly go back to the US and submit the claims against the superiors who ordered him/them to do so and let military justice take its course. There have been ample examples of the US military prosecuting those who have committed crimes. Until those crimes are proven, why should his story be believed?

    Until then, this is just another pathetic sap pulling on the gullible Canadian heart strings to escape his responsibilities.
  14. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: A lot of you guys calling 'coward' couldn't be more wrong. The conshies who have hit the paper so far are just that 'conshies' and not 'draft dodgers'. They were experienced serving soldiers, who have been abroad on active service before and who disagree with THIS war and the way in which it is waged. They did sign on voluntarily, but here's the thing: not for illegal wars. Conscience, not cowardice, comprehend? You also do comprehend that we aren't there because, well, its an ILLEGAL WAR. I believe, in all cases, their prior applications for conscientious objection were refused.
  15. l. mills from BC, Canada writes: Welcome to Canada Joshua Key/family and all of the other men who served in Iraq and are seeking refuge status in Canada.

    What many of you who are so easy to condemn is the fact they were told they would not have to serve a second tour in Iraq but then the US gov't changed their mind. That is why people like Joshua Key left the United States. They did what was required of them it was their gov't that let them down not the other way around.

    So again I say welcome to Canada.
  16. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: Mistaken Identity from Canada, very accurate post.
  17. Lars Satlana from Victoria, Canada writes: A great day for Canada and freedom loving people everywhere.
  18. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: S.L.S: can I state the obvious? Bosnia was an intervention authorised by the UN. Iraq was a pre-emptive action, contrary to international law. By your logic it was the 1944 bomb plotters not the soldiers who hanged them who were the criminals.
  19. Tax my toilet paper, please Dion - I will use less from Canada writes: S.L. S from Small Town - most excellent post.

    What all these bleeding hearts don't understand is that this guy joined the military out of his own free will. When you join, you sign a contract to serve your country. You sign a contract that says you will put your life on the line for your country.

    If you don't like it, then quit. It might not be an easy process, but quit & face the music in your home country.

    What the activist judges have now done is open a Pandora's box to any military coward in the world who has a disagreement with their boss. And all the thug-hugging liberals will have a goofy smile on their faces, completely clueless as to how they owe their way of life (or what was a sensible way of life until recent years) to soldiers of generations past.

    What an absolute shame.
  20. Karin Pasnak from North Vancouver, Canada writes: Good Luck Joshua, our family is rooting for you!
  21. Agent Smith from Canada writes: Tax my toilet paper, please Dion

    Like many of your kind, you're pro-war from the comfort of your own armchair. You want to criticise this guy, go take his place.
  22. Charles Sampson from Canada writes:
    Mistaken Identity from Canada writes: There have been ample examples of the US military prosecuting those who have committed crimes.

    But the biggest criminal/terrorist in the Iraq oil war is still in the president's office.

    ______________________________________________________

    Edmond Dusablon from United States writes:

    As for the deserter, he doesn't strike me as the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree.

    The dullest one you probably helped put into the president's office.
  23. Ben SGT/USMC from United States writes:

    Mr. Key! ... Like yourself, we just had our Fourth of July celebration as well, just walked in the house as a matter of fact.

    Sure feels good to be proud about something, doesn't it Key?

    I took the liberty of linking this story on a very popular Marine Corps website forum minutes ago, and I'm sure they'll want to comment on it.

    And hey...on your next visit through Florida, stop on by! Love to chat with you!

  24. Jeff Pritchard from Canada writes: Freedom wins in Canada! The freedom for a rational, thinking human being to confront institutionalized injustice in its purest form and actually succeed.

    Voices like these are nothing less than the conscience of a properly functioning democratic civil society.
  25. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: Winston Churchill from London, Canada, so what's your point. Do you seriously think that when I was being shot at in Bosnia I was thinking about whether this is UN sanctioned or not??? I could have cared less about the politics that put me in a war zone, I was a little more concerned about my personal survival. All you brought up was the political theory behind this. It doesn't change the fact that he VOLUNTEERED for service. If he felt that the changing of the rules from one tour to two was wrong then he could have fought it in the courts same with the so called orders to kill civilians. The US has a court system in place for just such things. He chose to run away rather than try and help change what he feels is wrong and help to protect innocent lives. Sounds quite cowardice to me. I would have fought it legally. He also always has the option to quit. I'm fully against the war in Iraq and if was down south I'd be out of the military ASAP or tied up in court. If I ever saw anyone, while I served, giving orders too or killing civilian I would have been taking names and taking the entire situation to court. I wouldn't run away because my job is to protect human life, Canadian or not, and secure their freedoms. You state a nice political point that has nothing to do with this mans actions.
  26. Lee Van Cleef from Canada writes: I can't believe Canada's thinking of accepting a traitor and deserter. This guy freely joined a volunteer army and was surprised that they degraded, abused, and humiliated the enemy combatants and civilians. What army doesn't do exactly that? I guess he's at least guilty of stupidity. Taking in a draft-dodger is one thing...someone fleeing conscription, but taking in a treasonous, deserter is quite another. A sad day, and a waste of Canadian time, and tax-dollars.
  27. Rob Swanson from Edmonton, Canada writes: America never declared war.
    The claimant deserted his unit under no threat but the one in his head.
    He volunteered to serve, and walked away for his own reasons.
    He wrote a book for profit, and so abrogates any claim to hardship.

    In short, he is dumb, and makes bad decisions, and has no legal or moral claim to refugee status.

    Activist judge overturns application found wanting under accepted process, and overturns lower court judge who ruled no claim under existing law.

    The upper court has no mandate to make law, it should limit itself to the legal requirement to interpret said existing law.

    In short, deport the criminal and let him face his moral deficiencies in the proper venue under the proper justice system, the U.S. uniform code of military justice.

    And yes, that looks an awful lot like the post I offered that disappeared.
  28. Alberto Bayo from Canada writes: The war in Iraq is a pathetic joke, but this guy volunteered for duty. He's a deserter, and a criminal and should be handed over to the US border patrol.
  29. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: Rob Swanson from Edmonton, Canada, I agree 100%.
  30. Cognitively Cogitative from Canada writes: Tax my toilet paper, please Dion - I will use less from Canada writes: Offended by our laws? Let us know, we'll change 'em! I'm significantly more offended by the US military's flouting of international law tax. I hope that war crimes prosecutions will one day take place in the upper echelons of the bush jr. admin
  31. Badges? We don't need no stinking badges from Canada writes: Jeez...I guess all those suckers in Iraq just had to flee to Canada. What a joke. Send the traitor packing
  32. Anton Norbert from Brampton, Canada writes: Hurrah for our justice system. This nation has been built by those who fled persecution. We don't need idealogical non-compassionate positions. We need understanding and good will.

    So, I really hope you folks can stay, enjoy and enrich our blessed nation.

    Cheers.
  33. Bill Hopkins from London, Canada writes: S.L. S from Small Town, Canada put it very well.

    And wold somebody please explain to me this crap about whether a war is 'legal' or 'illegal'? And I'm not interested in hearing about the dysfunctional UN. What it comes down to is that war is 'legal' if you agree with it and 'illegal' if you don't. So spare me.
  34. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: S.L.S., I guess we disagree on this one. For what its worth, the U.S. government has rather quietly unilaterally increased the obligation to serve, and eliminated the ability to quit for serving soldiers. Its also calling up guys who've been out for ages.

    You say you would quit: no you wouldn't. There's no guarantee you'd be permitted. Not only that, but even as a reservist or a quardsman trying to serve out your time and be done with it, you would find yourself both extended and deployed, up to a maximum permissible single stretch federalisation of 48 months presently . . . until they change the law again. I said that this was unilateral right -- i.e. the contract changed after you joined? Its called the 'silent draft': the gutless losers in charge right now, frightened of actually moving to a draft, hammering and hammering again the soldiers they currently have. Soldiers, of all people, should support these guys. Hell, King George III (of glorious memory, and no irony intended) did much less and the Yanks rebelled.

    You write that you'd fight the thing legally. I guess you mean in military courts, following your incarceration in Leavenworth for refusing orders. Good luck with that.

    Otherwise, I think these guys aren't placed like you in Bosnia. That was clear. For a Canadian soldier a better comparison would be Rwanda. You were sworn to bear 'true allegiance' (rather than to protect the constitution, which makes Iraq such a difficult issue for US soldiers of conscience). Wouldn't you have want to raise the Jolly Roger and send some chyt-bags to hell, whatever your orders suggested? I'm sure HM would be OK with that.

    You write 'He chose to run away rather than try and help change what he feels is wrong and help to protect innocent lives'. I think that's what he's trying to do, no?
  35. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Where are all you right-wing, Harper/Bush loving morons now, huh? Guess you've got nothing to say in defence of such atrocities. Cowards. ... Perhaps now more military members will come forward.
  36. BRIAN DUNPHY from new westminster, b.c., Canada writes: What an insult to our soldiers in Afghanistan. If one of them should ever desert I doubt the Canadian judicial system would cut him the same slack they did to this U.S. deserter. It's just always an easy call for these appointed pukes to attempt to embarrass the Americans.
  37. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: The Federal Court is well known for being infested by lunatics. This is just another example. We have enough cowards in this country....we surely don't have to import more.
  38. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: Brian Dunphy. You write from ignorance. If one of our soldiers declares a conscientious objection he's out of the war (and the Army) in short order. These 'pukes' don't have to embarrass the Americans: the current government is doing a good enough job as is.

    You guys all understand that the war in Afghanistan is entirely separable from the one in Iraq, right?
  39. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: Winston Churchill from London, Canada, No, he's running away from all those poor civilians that he claims he was ordered to kill rather than doing the right thing and fighting orders by incompetant leaders through the system. If he went back now, yeah,m he'd be imprisoned and rightfully so. If he had taken the high ground in the first place, through the legal handling of the situation, then he may have actually helped some people, himself included. I will agree that the constant extension of tours is rediculous, demoralizing and very exhausting but there are always ways to get out. Always have been, always will be. If seen it several times in our own military. Just for the record I was in Rwanda as well albeit for a very short time. War is war, the politics that put you there is quite irrelevant. The actions you take while there are relevant. If you feel something is wrong, you right it, you don't run from it. If you run the problem just gets worse. He didn't have the bollocks to fight what he felt was wrong and frankly, that doesn't warrant refugee status, not even close. We'll never see this one eye to eye but I have always been of the mind set that I and I alone control my life. Evidently, he is not of that mindset.
  40. Gail Thomas from Canada writes: Resistance leaders of the 'left' act as gatekeepers - influential, progressive figures who use their resources and visability to regulate debates, tactics and rehetoric of the 'anti-war' and other progressive movements. By the comments on this site, they just admit to all, they're foolish and don't have anything more intelligent to say.
  41. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: And does a person do when they find themselves amongst a pack of hyenas? He's doing a greater good by making it public, as if we didn't know already.
  42. LJ Brody from Canada writes: Welcome to Canada Mr Key - the only American soldier with any real courage.

    We should do this every fourth of July.
  43. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: OK S.L.S. we disagree on this one, and I'm done for the night anyway.

    I think it must take bollocks, however, for a serving soldier not only to leave his unit but to seek refuge in a foreign country. Consider the abuse he's taking here, and we are foreigners and aren't the members of his unit who chose the easy road!

    I must say, however, that like yourself, I once took an oath to bear 'true allegiance'. I've always asked myself since what that means. I never construed it to mean 'mindless obedience'. I always considered, as well, that under certain circumstances -- on issues touching the honour of my country, or for the health of my own soul -- that there was an absolute requirement for me to separate myself from orders I could not follow in good conscience. If I were a U.S. soldier right now, I'd go to Afghanistan. I might well refuse orders for Iraq.

    Rwanda and Bosnia. I'm trying to think how that would work. Very unlucky Jimmy or air force?
  44. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Perhaps he had more faith in the US military than he should have and wasn't expecting to find such acts of 'low conscience'. Brave man, wish there were more like him.
  45. bruce weaver from Canada writes: It takes no courage to do what Mr. keys is doing. What would take courage is to go home and face his punsihment whatever it may be. Hiding behind refugee laws is a joke. When you sign up to the military it is voluntary. You do not pick and choose where you go. He needs to do the right thing and go home. If not we should kick him out.
  46. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: No way, Weaver, he stays, he is a good role model for a world that is morally falling apart and becoming extremely selfish. He's staying I can guarantee you that.
  47. Winston Churchill from London, Canada writes: Sigh. One more. Bruce, read previous posts before posting. Signing up is voluntary. Staying in the U.S. military, right now, is not. Contracts are being unilaterally extended. You can't get out. If you are in, you stay in. That goes whether you are: a) regular; b) reserve; c) national guard; or d) have ever been any of the above. Why is this so? Because George W. would rather hammer the snot out of the soldiers he has than: a) inconvenience the voters not currently in uniform; or b) admit that he made a mistake.

    It is true that you do not pick and chose where you would go. Were you a German, in 1939, would you have gone to Poland?

    The right thing is what he's doing.

    Case closed.

    Night all.
  48. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: Winston Churchill from London, Canada, I was in a recon unit of the Airbourne for my first 6 years then remustered to the airforce. It was safer. I agree that there comes a time when you do have toi consider what your doing and weigh it against your own morale values. That time came for me in Bosnia. Without going into details, I disobeyed orders and I would do it again today. No one is asking anyone in the military to follow blindly. Look at this issue at hand, I could not, in good conscious, walk away if i thought that someone in my unit or even my military was ordering the killings of civilians or following those orders. I just couldn't do it. I'd fight that with every fiber of my being. I guess we're all different though. Thanks for the posts and allowing me to see your views. I appreciate it even if I disagree. You have a good night. I'm going to settle in for a movie as well I think.
  49. Joe V from Canada writes: A lot of the people seeking refugee status joined the U.S. military before they began their illegal war in Iraq. Keep that in mind, everyone.
  50. Rob Swanson from Edmonton, Canada writes: Jenny, Jenny, Jenny.

    He will be deported. What you consistently fail to understand is that the law is not what you want it to be, but is what is written in the house of parliament by elected members. It is interpreted by the justice system.

    He is a criminal and a deserter and unworthy of your admiration.

    What are you going to do to guarantee he stays? The facts are that he broke the laws of the nation of his citizenship and fails to meet Canada's legal requirements.

    Shake your fist, and run for office. I know I would love to see you banging doors running as an NDP candidate in Alberta. I need that sort of humour in my life.
  51. t devitt from Canada writes: I am in a quandry as to what dirrection my opinion should be voiced.
    1) The information available is sketchy at best and from the articles I've read it sounds like it's mostly hear say. Holy political bs batman.
    2) The Iraqi war is illegal in every sense of the(international) law and as Rob Swanson noted was never declaired by the current war criminals in office to the south nor was the links to osama nor WMD's ever proved. Whole bunch of questions about 911 though!
    3) Has Mr. Keys exhausted the judicial avenues that are available to him and his family in his own country including the Supreme court of the US? I think even us backwards Canadians would have heard about that one. LOL
    4) What about Mr. Key's responsibilities to honour his contract with the us military? As pointed out q.v. YOU got YOURSELF in the game so finish it! Do the honourable thing and don't just talk the talk - walk the walk
    As to the war Mr. Bush & Mr. Bush and Mr. Rummsfeld et al You will reap your rewards if not in the Hague in chains where you belong then when you go to meet your GOD you profess to believe in.
    As for Mr. Keys I think you are using a system that was to protect the weak and the unjustly persecuted for your own cowardly selfish gains! Until I see factual proof to the contrary I personally think you should be deported but your family can stay pending the outcome of your case.
    Good luck with that
    Oh and Ben sgt usmc To quote a very patriotic American whom I have always admired 'Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent'
    Isaac Asimov Let him have his day in court if he's got a valid claim it will show up. And he will be going home to court I expect. PS I am against the war but my best wishes to you and all the service men and women. Be careful and come home safe to your familys and loved ones!!!!!
  52. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada, A good role model??? Are you kidding me? I taught my kids to fight for their rights and what they believe in, not run away. A role model, he is definately not.
  53. Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring Island, Canada writes: Rob Swanson wrote: The facts are that he broke the laws of the nation of his citizenship and fails to meet Canada's legal requirements.

    Yes, he broke the laws of his nation - does that mean we are supposed to enforce the laws of that nation? Harper might like it otherwise, but I think we are still, at least nominally, a separate country.

    I wonder how many of the people here that say send him back also think the American invasion of Iraq was justified?
  54. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Joe V from Canada says 'A lot of the people seeking refugee status joined the U.S. military before they began their illegal war in Iraq.'

    The war in Iraq is not illegal. In fact, it was in support of numerous UN resolutions. Maybe check your facts.
  55. Mahatma Gandhi from Canada writes: Bill Hopkins from London, Canada writes: And wold somebody please explain to me this crap about whether a war is 'legal' or 'illegal'?

    There are no universally accepted definitions. A war of self-defense is certainly legal. A war of aggression for the purpose of enlarging a country's territory such as the Nazi pursuit of 'lebensraum' is certainly illegal, and that was the basis for the Nuremberg trials.

    Everything in between is murkier. Certainly a case could be made that the US invasion and occupation of Iraq is illegal. It was done under false pretenses, that much is clear. Many suspect that the Iraq war was about oil. Alan Greenspan, former Chairman of the Federal Reserve has said as much in his memoirs. And even someone with such impeccable neocon credentials as Richard Perle has stated that the Iraq invasion was illegal. Perle explained that 'in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing'.

    Whatever the legality of the Iraq invasion is, one thing is clear: It is immoral.

    Regarding crimes against civilians, the US government and the military of course do not recognize the International Criminal Court, and in the very few prosecutions that have occurred within the US armed forces, very minor sentences were handed out. Abu Ghraib of course is an outstanding example of this.
  56. Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring Island, Canada writes: Joe Bloggins: I just did:

    On September 16, 2004 Kofi Annan, the Secretary General of the United Nations, said of the invasion, 'I have indicated it was not in conformity with the U.N. charter. From our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal.'
  57. Alberta didn't need Ralph from Calgary, Canada writes: S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes 'I taught my kids to fight for their rights and what they believe in, not run away.'

    And what is it that you believe in, fighting or not in Iraq? If so, go fight yourself with your kids, but if you prefer the safety of Canada, leave us (including the dodger) alone who do not like Bush's illegal war.

    I agree with the dodger in Sask a few years ago who was on a radio talk show and answered one of your type. He said he would gladly go back to the US and serve jail time if Bush would be placed in the adjoining cell and serve his for war crimes.
  58. Mahatma Gandhi from Canada writes: S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: A good role model??? Are you kidding me? I taught my kids to fight for their rights and what they believe in

    Actually, I think that's exactly what this soldier is doing.
  59. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Jennie MacCrae from Canada says 'And does a person do when they find themselves amongst a pack of hyenas? He's doing a greater good by making it public, as if we didn't know already.'

    Jennie, you are pretty thick. Making what public? Unproven allegations to get himself off the hook? Much like the so-called Haditha 'massacre' which has been proven entirely false. Canada does not need to become a haven for cowards.....far too many here already....mostly on the left.
  60. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring Island, says 'Joe Bloggins: I just did:

    On September 16, 2004 Kofi Annan, the Secretary General of the United Nations, said of the invasion, 'I have indicated it was not in conformity with the U.N. charter. From our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal.' '

    Uh.....Kofi Annan is not a member of the judiciary (in fact, he should have been before the courts for his many indiscretions). I guess you think that Kofi Annan is some kind of a judge, eh? Dolt.
  61. bruce weaver from Canada writes: You can get out of the military very easily. Piss hot, medical, etc. Deserting and leaving your unit behind and fleeing to Canada is not a good role model. The only way he stays is if he hangs around long enough that the Liberals get in. He can go back with only a court maritial and dishonorable. That is it. He does not have the guts to face his punishment. Instead he hides like a coward in Canada.
  62. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Mahatma Gandhi from Canada says 'S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: A good role model??? Are you kidding me? I taught my kids to fight for their rights and what they believe in

    Actually, I think that's exactly what this soldier is doing.'

    No....he is not a soldier...he is a coward.
  63. Rob Swanson from Edmonton, Canada writes: Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring Island;

    As I wrote, he fails to meet Canada's legal requirement for refugee status.

    I fail to see how that relates to Canada enforcing another sovereign nation's laws.

    His 'search' for justice begins and ends with the laws he willfully violated of the nation of his citizenship.

    Nice redirect though.

    At no point have I offered an personal opinion of the conflict in question.

    I don't believe my opinion affects in any way the interpretation of the laws of the land.

    Nor yours.

    However, in the interest of openness that some profess to value, I believe the entire conflict was undermined by falsehood, and I am very glad my nation chose to stay out of this fight.

    I was also very proud to serve my values and those of Canada when I served during the initial Gulf war, and during the subsequent conflicts in middle Europe, Africa, Haiti, Afghanistan and never more so than the multiple aid to civil power operations in Canada that I served in.
  64. Alberta didn't need Ralph from Calgary, Canada writes: Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes:'The war in Iraq is not illegal. In fact, it was in support of numerous UN resolutions. Maybe check your facts. '

    Too funny. The facts at the time were the US was the self appointed policeman of the world, and the Condi Rice gang stated that the UN was obsolete, so they felt free to start the war.
    The war was in support of UN resolutions? The UN never told the US to go to war, and in fact Hans whatever his name was couldn't find any evidence of WMD, so the gang moved quickly to get the war going before the full report came out.
  65. globefan Eh from Canada writes: Joseph Bloggins...about the UN resolutions..yellowcake uranium, mushroom clouds and water treatment chemicals aside, if the information give to support the UN resolutions was garbage and lies, what do you expect but faulty resolutions.

    This man volunteered to go to Iraq because he was naive enough to trust his Commander in Chief to tell the truth.

    Two million refugees and a couple of hundred thousand Iraqi dead..and many young American soldiers who have committed suicide over there or when they came back. . Real men don't always behave like tv Rambos..
  66. Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring Island, Canada writes: Joe Bloggins: So, according to you, who is the judiciary in this case, if it isn't the head of the United Nations?

    Rob Swanson: Well, you said, 'The facts are that he broke the laws of the nation of his citizenship...' which should be irrelevant here. And as for his refugee status here, he does not necessarily fail to meet Canada's legal requirement for refugee status. He can be given it if it is decided that he will be unjustly treated if he returns to his home country.
  67. Rabid Senses from Good gawd, a latte-swilling Westerner, Canada writes:

    People of good conscience are welcome in Canada.

    The Iraq War was nothing less than a mistake and atrocity purely at the hand of the USA.

    History will only ensure that Bush, his administration, and their ignoble legacy bleed even more as the years ensue.

    Shame on the stupid Canadians (what? - all 14% of them) who remain idiotically and audaciously in support of this war.

    And yes, as an earlier poster noted, WE MUST separate Afghanistan from Iraq. Not to purify our conscience but as a matter of understanding of the seminal ways by which we became embroiled in A'stan.

    We couldn't get out of there sooner. There is no way we will be sticking around to defend an American oil pipeline for American interests.

    The USA's interests are increasingly divergent from ours.
  68. J Ramsey from LaPine, United States writes: Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring Island, Canada writes: Let 'em stay; this people signed up to defend their country, not wage this stupid war. We need more people of conscience like this.

    Canada has welcomed those fleeing persecution since the time of the Underground Railroad - we should continue this proud tradition.

    PROUD TRADITION ????? LOL Canadians are know worldwide as being the ONLY Country with more Cowards that France. Yep keep up the good work. Just hope all these cowards you welcome are never expected to defend CANADA! LOL
  69. Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring Island, Canada writes: Yes Mr. Ramsey, here on the little island where I live, we have the descendants of the people who fled slavery in the United States, we have people who fled the draft for the Vietnam War, and if we were lucky enough to have someone fleeing the Iraq War, I'd be proud of that too.

    The real cowards are the people who are failing to stand up to your sleazy leaders.
  70. Graham Magus from Toronto, Canada writes: Brave enough to stand up for your beliefs?
    Please go home and bravely face the consequences for your desertion.
    You weren't conscripted, you volunteered.
    If you feel used, abused or lied to by your nation..........tell them so and face the consequences. None of you are not refugees as you had choice and will not suffer physical harm back home. Hang your heads, tuck those tails between your legs and back over the border with you all.
  71. t devitt from Canada writes: alberta didn't need ralph tooooo right lol
    The war (in Iraq) Maatma is illegal for the following reasons
    1) It violates the geneva conventions in the fact that the US failed to prove (re EVIDENCE) that any of the official justification's for the war were correct. Thus it is a war of Aggression and subject to the same scrutiny as the Nazis,Pol pot ,Idi,and yes SADAM and Melosavich
    2)It violates the Hague conventions of war that the US is a signatory to with respect to the return of peace once objectives are met and undo hard ship for non-combatants RE The occupation of Iraq and the 30 tonnes of DU weapons that have been expended there causing untold damage for the next 250,000 (YES two hundred and fifty thousand ) years. Radio activity from depleted uranium will be around for the estimated life of our SUN!!!!!!!! This is your world too dude. :/
    3) the formal declaration of war was never passed (as far as I know) through both houses and signed by the pres as the geneva conventions require a DECLARATION OF WAR this also makes the war suspect.
    4) You can quite easily google a Wikipedia on international law war and get the links to the details if you wish.
    There are at least a half a dozen other conventions and customs of war as defined by over 150 yrs of treaties and agreements that have been ignored during the 'two' wars in Iraq. Not to mention the vetoes by the U.S. in the UN pertaining to negative responses to the Iraq conflict.

    Quick shot to Rob S in Edmonton Thanks for the unselfish duty in defence of our great country good on ya glad ur back safe need more like ya. My bro's said Bosnia was a real B**CH
  72. Rand Bowerman from United States writes: I Mills:

    Key voluntarily joined the military. The contract, fully-explained, is for 3 or 4 years active duty followed by 5 or 4 years in the Reserves--total of 8 years. They all know that they could be recalled in time of emergency. 'You take the King's shilling; you do the King's bidding'. Or suffer the consequences, as opposed to running away like a coward.

    BTW, what would you Canadians have thought in 1939-41 (before the U.S. entered WWII), if we had returned YOUR deserters and draft dodgers (mostly from Quebec, if I recall my Canadian history)??
  73. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: Alberta didn't need Ralph from Calgary, Canada, I spent 20 years in our military. Can you say the same or were you too scared?
  74. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring Island, Canada says 'Joe Bloggins: So, according to you, who is the judiciary in this case, if it isn't the head of the United Nations?'

    Are you serious or just completely nuts? Please enlighten us where this judicial power comes from. Wow, are you completely out of touch with reality. Please educate yourself....maybe one of your brain dead hippie friends out on Saltspring can help you read.
  75. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: globefan Eh from Canada says 'Joseph Bloggins...about the UN resolutions..yellowcake uranium, mushroom clouds and water treatment chemicals aside, if the information give to support the UN resolutions was garbage and lies, what do you expect but faulty resolutions.'

    Hey dolt.....the information was exactly the same as was available to the Clinton administration prior to Bush taking over. And since when did the most corrupt organization in the world (the UN) ever take it's intelligence information from the US? God, you are stupid.
  76. Rand Bowerman from United States writes: correction: 'had NOT returned........'

    sorry
  77. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: Alberta didn't need Ralph from Calgary, Canada< I spent 20 years getting to know and understand my morale fiber. That's 20 years more than 98% of the people because 98% of the people are never put into situatiuons where they have to. I don't agree with the war in Iraq but I sure as hell wouldn't run when I saw a problem that needs to be solved. I wouldn't run away when women and children are getting killed. I wouldn't run away from my fellow soldiers who depend on me and my kids wouldn't run away either like the majority of the posters on this thread would. Why, because you've never had to take a hard look at your morale values and hopefully you won't have too. It sounds to me like many of you wouldn't be able to handle it, like this guy couldn't but I'm glad you'd all be ready and willing to turn your backs on people who need you, so quickly and readily, like this guy did and just run away and allow the killings of innocent civilians to continue without so much as a wimper from you. Congratulations, your all an embarrassment to this and any country.
  78. Rand Bowerman from United States writes: Just a thought on the 'moral' imperative of overthrowing Saddam Hussein. Why was the genocide that he committed (poison gas, etc) against the Kurds, Iranians, and the Iraqi Shiites in southern Iraq any less actionable by the free world than the genocides in Bosnia and Kosovo?
  79. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: globefan Eh from Canada SAYS 'Joseph Bloggins...about the UN resolutions..yellowcake uranium, mushroom clouds and water treatment chemicals aside, if the information give to support the UN resolutions was garbage and lies, what do you expect but faulty resolutions.'

    Hey goofball, check out

    UNSCR 1441, 1284, 1205, 1194. 1154, 1134, 1115, 1060, 1051, 949, 715, 707, 688, 687, 686, 679.

    UN Security Council Presidential Statement, June 28, 1991,
    February 5, 1992, February 19, 1992, February 28, 1992, March 6, 1992, March 11, 1992, March 12, 1992, etc. etc.......well you get the idea (Well maybe YOU don't, but most people with an IQ greater than room temperature will.).
  80. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: S.L. S from Small Town, Canada says of Alberta didn't need Ralph from Calgary, Canada, 'Congratulations, your all an embarrassment to this and any country. ' Right you are. Alberta didn't need Ralph from Calgary is nothing more than a left wing parasite who lives off the sacrifices of others. He is little more than algae.
  81. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: Mahatma Gandhi from Canada, your free to think whatever you like but what this man is doing is simply turning a blind eye to corruption, allowing it to continue without even attempting to stop it and running away. Because of his actions, more civilians might die at the hands of US soldiers if what he is saying is even true. Quite frankly I find it awfully hard to believe a man who signs a contract then doesn't honor it and who makes accusations but doesn't try to prevent them from happening.
  82. S.L. S from Small Town, Canada writes: Rand Bowerman from United States, because Bosnia wasn't given the press that Iraq and Afghanistan have been given. Most Canadians don't even realize that we lost more people there in 3 years than we have in Afghanistan so far. Most Canadians don't even realize we lost soldiers there at all. Most Canadians don't even know we were there in the first place because it wasn't front page news. Most Canadians couldn't even tell you who we were fighting, protecting or why we were there.
  83. Harbinger from Out West from Canada writes: If the coward is allowed to stay in Canada, maybe he can forward his resume to Taliban Jack and the Dippers. He might fit in somewhere with them.
  84. Deroga TORY from Canada writes: 'The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder' by Vincent Bugliosi, one of the more astute prosecuters in the US. Might be worth a read for all the couch potatoheads who are so quick to condemn. No one in their right mind would have willingly fought a war for these thugs in the White House if the truth had come out beforehand. There are just causes worth fighting for if diplomacy fails, then there are just murderous rampages based on lies. Iraq has proven to be the latter and I just thank God Mr. Harper and his cronies were not in office when the decision to take a pass on this mass murder was made by saner minds.
  85. Rabid Senses from Good gawd, a latte-swilling Westerner, Canada writes:

    If Harper and his crew were in office in March 2003 he would have placed us in Iraq.

    Canada would have never been the same.

    Body bag after body bag would have returned.

    Socially, politically, culturally and economically (wow! - the huge bills!!) Canada would have been brought to our knees by a complete sense of disdain for ourselves being led into a purposeless war based on lies.

    Canada never would have been the same again.

    For (at least) my generation not going to war in Iraq was the most important decision in our political lives . . . and Chretien's finest moment, all his other moments and history aside.

    I fail to understand how a handful of neo-con wackos are still upset at Canada for not joining this quagmire.
  86. Mik Ball from Vancouver, Canada writes: Will Judge Barnes be setting out the current iteration of 'the basic rules or norms of human behaviour' any time soon. Is he a secular version of Moses?
  87. Dave M from Canada writes: At the beginning of this issue some years ago I agreed with those who said these guys signed up, they have to stick by that, and I thought letting them stay would be an insult to a close ally, the United States. But as we now know the war was launched under lies and false pretences, that indeed American soldiers regularly kill innocent civilians often by accident, or not, and there is no end in sight. It's likely that many of them did not know of the things they would see and be ordered to do when they got to Iraq. So now I say let them stay, maybe it will help a little bit in opening up people's eyes south of the border. I think the tipping point for me was when an American soldier in Afghanistan told a reporter the reason so many Canadian soldiers are dying there is because they worry too much about killing civilians.
  88. m clement hall from Guelph, Canada writes: If a Canadian soldier did not wish to return with his regiment to Afghanistan and sought refugee status in the U.S., what would be:
    a) the Canadian opinion,
    b) the U.S. opinion?
  89. Cruthin Clan from Canada writes: A true shame letting the spineless in. We have enough jellyfish in this country without allowing more.
  90. Mary Smith from United States writes:

    'A great day for Canada and freedom loving people everywhere'.

    What an absolute joke.

    The other story about the hideous police state, otherwise known as Canada, where 'authorities' take away children from their mother for being politically incorrect (and 'comments closed) shows what a catastrophe Canada is and how many brain-washed dupes live there.
  91. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: Cruthin Clan from Canada writes: A true shame letting the spineless in. We have enough jellyfish in this country without allowing more.
    _______________________________________________________

    You scum! With comments like these I don't know why you aren't fighting some idiotic war in the Middle East yourself, no matter what your age. Head south and stay there. I am glad to receive soldiers that depart from the current illegal wars in the Middle East.
  92. Philip McRae from Vancouver, Canada writes: Here's a guy that joined the Army for what he could get under the condition that in time of war he would be released from his obligations. He's a hero of the left. He will have to stay. Living up to the obligations you volunteered to accept is sooo right wing.
  93. Third Rail from Some Burgh, Canada writes: Conscientious objection is recognised under international law by the UN.

    I would like to know what penalty he would face if he had to return. The maximum penalty for desertion during wartime is death. If that's what he would face then we cannot return him. If it's prison time that's another issue depending on the sentence.

    Since 2000, about 40,000 troops from all branches of the US military have deserted, mostly with the US.

    Those who label him a coward or spineless should know that the US Military will accept Canadians who wish to go and fight in Iraq. If you do not wish to show us your 'courage', they will also accept financial contributions to fund the war effort.

    Mr. Key, if you are allowed to stay, have you given any thought to joining the Canadian Forces and serving in Kandahar