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Ottawa off hook for legal bills of man stuck in Sudan

PAUL KORING

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 11:02 AM EST 07/07/08

Federal Court judge orders Canadian diplomats not to read confidential papers sent by Abousfian Abdelrazik's lawyers ...Read the full article

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  1. C Bruner from Toronto, Canada writes: What an embarrassment. The Canadian Government is shooting itself in the foot if it thinks these delaying tactics are of any value. In fact, I think they are slowly but surely increasing the liability of Canadian taxpayers.

    Makes me wonder if I could legally volunteer to pay his legal fees and collect a portion of a sure fire multi-million dollar legal settlement for the Canadian Government's improper treatment of a citizen.
  2. Voice of Reason from Ottawa, Canada writes: I seem to remember dead Americans being dragged through the streets, who were on a humanitarian mission to feed these people.
  3. The Archer from Canada writes: Voice of Reason: You're thinking of Somalia...the Sudanese gov't does not need you to disparage them...they can do that on their own.
  4. Dan L from Canada writes: C Bruner wrote:

    'Makes me wonder if I could legally volunteer to pay his legal fees and collect a portion of a sure fire multi-million dollar legal settlement for the Canadian Government's improper treatment of a citizen.'

    Well there goes any claim on your part of altruism .......... please try and remember who 'Canadian Taxpayers' are, your neighbours, who I'm sure would be less than thrilled to learn you'd like dipping into their pockets.
  5. Alberta Dennis Notso,redneck from Canada writes: Put it this way folks. We rely on our government for a lot of major issues that effect our life style, standard of living, making and enforcing laws etc. Stop crying about this guy. There are zillions of people in this world that are in much worse situations than this fellow. This guy has a roof over his head and food. Thx to Canada and the so and so had a chance to remain in Canada and chose his own destiny. He also lost his Canadian passport ha ha.
  6. C Bruner from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Well there goes any claim on your part of altruism ....'

    Absolutely correct. While my fellow Canadian's pocketbook would be hit in a lawsuit, I'm more than a little concerned about the treatment of Canadian Citizens by their government. A successful lawsuit is a wonderful way to ensure that it doesn't happen again, to myself, you, or my fellow Canadians who may be more concerned with their pocketbook then their liberty and freedom.

    Truth be told, I'll be much happier to see those responsible being held criminally accountable.
  7. Dickie Shrinkage from Coldwater, Canada writes:

    Google this guy. He sounds like a real winner, and the kind of person we need here in Canada.
  8. Mister G. from Canada writes: This guy is back in his native land but instead of trying to get a job and support himself, he is occupying the Canadian embassy. Why is Canada allowing this? Kick him out.
  9. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    'Getting blacklisted on the so-called 1267 list, named for the UN Security Council Resolution originally co-sponsored by Canada, is easy. Any UN-member country can finger a suspect. Getting off is almost impossible and once listed all UN countries are required to seize the assets of any individual and enforce a travel ban, although returning home is explicitly permitted.'

    Fortunately for Abousfian Abdelrazik he's already home.
  10. Shirley Jackson from Oliver, BC, Canada writes: What kind of judge doesn't know that Canada is a party to treaties at the United Nations and the International Committee of the Red Cross that forbid torture, cruel and unusual punishment, and war crimes?

    Abdelrazik need not pay legal bills -- it's free to complain to the treaty bodies.
  11. Constantin Sokolski from Baln.Camboriu, Brazil writes: Probably this guy is staying for free at the Canadian Embassy. He's is not just a terrorist but a freeloader,as well.
    Expulse him from the embassy!
  12. Fish Lips from Canada writes: Yay for freedom!

    Does anyone realize how easy it is to have your name put on these no-fly lists? And that there really aren't any checks and balances for people who share the same name?

    AND it is next to impossible to have YOUR name removed, or YOUR information amended in the no-fly list profiles. Once blocked, always and permanently blocked, no matter how clear your 'innocence.' (Or at least until we revoke or amend our laws.)

    Furthermore, you are NEVER warned about being on said lists. So you go about your business as you always do, not realizing your fate and the potential fallout of enjoying your freedoms as a Canadian citizen.

    Can you imagine leaving Canada to go on vacation or to visit family, and then to try to board a plane to return home only to be confiscated of any validating documents and your cash? And then to be told that you are forbidden to return to your home?

    I guess some white people's names need to make it on that list before anyone actually cares.
  13. Chris Lalonde from Singapore writes: If this guy didn't associate with al-Qaeda, most Canadians would sympathize with him more. Canada let him jump the mainstream immigration queue by taking him in as a refugee. For that he should have been grateful. He is involved in a terrorist organization that want to destroy the West (that includes Canada). For that, he is a traitor. He could have lived in Canada got a job and support his family. Instead he chose this path. The Canadian taxpayer shouldn't have to support him. It's his bed, let him sleep in it...
  14. p m from Canada writes: that no-fly list sounds like maybe we should try to get GWB, cheney, rumsfeld and a few others on it...just after they visit some african nation
  15. Bert Russell Paradox, BC from Canada writes:
    Fish lips: you ask the question 'does no one know how easy it is to get your name on a no fly list'......... well FL why don't you tell us how easy it is ... Frankly if the CSIS and the RCMP have security reasons; (which do not have to be disclosed) for not allowing him back.. that is good enough for me. These authorities are there to protect the interest of innocent Canadians. The Liberals had very loosy goosy Immigration laws which allowed many undesirables into our country and Bush stirred up many problems including Terrorists and their sympathizers when he invaded Iraq .... this guy has over a dozen aliases which by themselves should raise suspicion and where does he flee to when the heat is on ... Canada ... known around the world for our naive bleeding heart Liberals.
  16. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: an interesting case indeed. i for one will be following it as it continues to develop.
  17. Globefollower From Canada from Canada writes: The rule of law is not protected by ignoring it or applying it selectively. Canadians abroad deserve the same rights from the Canadian government they would receive if they were in Canada, and are subject to the same penalties. If he has done something illegal, bring him home and charge him. If he has not, bring him home. Our current government is hypocritical when it comes to human rights and civil liberties, saying one thing but doing something else.
  18. brian hope from Canada writes: There used to be a statement somewhere that if you are a Canadian citizen but not born in Canada then the Canadian government could not help you if you are in the country of your birth.
    He went ot Sudan of his own violation so let him stay there.
    I am fed up with all the canadian citizens who return to their country of birth and then scream for the Canadian gov to help them when there is trouble.
  19. Don Adams, The Conservative Centrist from Canada writes: Better still, leave him there, ship his family over to him. Where there's smoke, there's fire, and we have enough fires. He's just another one of those 'convenience Canadians' anyway.
  20. Wilf Kruggel from Canada writes: The taxpayers should never have to pay any legal bills for anyone anywhere and in some cases, only in Canada, that's it. These people were not sent there, by our government, they went there on their own, for whatever devious reason, that's itm enough is enough, Wilf
  21. immolson Canadian from Scarboroughanistan, Canada writes: Al-Queda, Taliban and his like minded religious borthers and sisters should pay for all of his expenses as well. Anyway, he 's home now in Sudan so what he has complained about.
  22. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'brian hope from Canada writes: There used to be a statement somewhere that if you are a Canadian citizen but not born in Canada then the Canadian government could not help you if you are in the country of your birth.'
    _____

    it still can be found inside the back of every passport. of course perhaps some people cant, or dont, read whats inside their passport. they just assume the government can bail them out of any trouble.
  23. Don Bryant from Calgary, Canada writes: Mister G. from Canada writes: This guy is back in his native land but instead of trying to get a job and support himself, he is occupying the Canadian embassy. Why is Canada allowing this? Kick him out.

    --------------

    Absolutely right, Mr. G. Here's another pretend Canadian, Canadian of convenience, whatever you want to call him, but certainly not a real Canadian, wanting to hold the Canadian taxpayer for ransom, just like Arar did. Given this guy's apparent sympathies, perhaps he should ask al-Qaeda or the Taliban to pay his bills.
  24. Don Wells from Canada writes: A Canadian of Convenience--Leave him in Africa
  25. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Don B and Mr. G:

    ... We can always be sure to find you two on a post where you can rant negatively for your own personal agenda.

    *** There are some posters on this board I'd like to see shipped back to where they come from. You know who you are, suck up, he's a Canadian period.
  26. Bob Beal from Edmonton, Canada writes: James C: It is neither wise nor ethical to misrepresent what it says on a Canadian passport. This is the passage to which you refer (at least it is this way on my passport; maybe it is different on yours):

    'Canadians may have dual nationality through birth, descent, marriage or naturalization. They are advised that while in the country of their other nationality they may be subject to all its laws and obligations, including military service.'

    That says that Canadian citizenship does not exempt any one from the military draft of another country in which they hold citizenship. It says nothing about aid for distressed travellers or about the obligation of the state (which goes back centuries in the British system) to protect and represent its citizens anywhere in the world.
  27. Don Bryant from Calgary, Canada writes: Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: . . . he's a Canadian period.'

    ---------

    Jennie, he is NOT a Canadian. He is a pretend Canadian, a Canadian of convenience. Like so many others that come here only to get the benefits of Canadian citizenship, NEVER to give anything back. And they always insist on retaining dual citizenship in whatever cesspool of a homeland they came from. Then, when they go back to that cesspool and get into trouble there, they expect real Canadians to bail them out. Well, as far as I'm concerned, this guy can rot there. But, as I said before, maybe al-Qaeda or the Taliban would be happy to help him out with some financial assistance.
  28. Michael B from Canada writes: Mister G. from Canada writes: This guy is back in his native land but instead of trying to get a job and support himself, he is occupying the Canadian embassy. Why is Canada allowing this? Kick him out. **************** Wow. The man is a Canadian citizen. The Canadian government has as much as admitted that they didn't really have a reason to put him on the UN blacklist, so we have to assume he's innocent - that's the way our society works, remember? Maybe it works differently in your White Power camps, but hey, I don't really care, do I? He went to Sudan to visit his dying mother. Then Sudan put him in jail at our request. The bloody Sudanese government let him out a few years later because they didn't like jailing him with no charges. So then Canada blocks all avenues of return and lies to him about it, despite the precedent set for returning people in his situation to their native country. Now we've given him safe haven but we can't get him off the list because the list is some kind of Police State tool that's governed by those fighting the 'War on Terror' against the 'Axis of Evil' or whatever Christian jihad. And he never did anything wrong! Nothing, not a single charge against him! Zero! Our current extremely left-wing human rights championing government (haha) even said they want him off the UN blacklist! You want to rethink your comments please?
  29. Chris Halford from Ottawa, Canada writes: If there is no evidence that he has committed any crime, he should be on his way back to Canada. Who pays his legal fees is a separate matter (the Federal Court says the government doesn't have to pay his legal costs but doesn't say that it's not allowed to). The federal government should get him out of there. I'm sure there's a way, there's probably just a lack of motivation - maybe they don't want to upset Dubya?
  30. Dickie Shrinkage from Coldwater, Canada writes:

    Can't we turn this in to a reality show somehow? It will help cover the costs to Canadians. I think Michael Moore is available.
  31. kel fitz from gueph, Canada writes: If Islam were recognized as a cult religion, we wouldn't be faced with these problems. And to Fish Lips: My white friend with a European back-ground, with a common European name, found himself on a 'No-fly' list, and is still fighting to have himself removed from it. I hope I blew your attempt at turning this into another 'race' thing.
  32. Lorraine Singer from Anytown, Canada writes: kel fitz from gueph, Canada writes: If Islam were recognized as a cult religion, we wouldn't be faced with these problems. '

    And exactly how does 'Islam as a cult religion' differ from extreme fundamentalist christianity which also has the same earmarks differ from being a cult? I'm not a muslim but I fail to see how the 'attack Iran to bring about the end times and bring back Jesus movement' is any more rational.
  33. Kim Morton from Canada writes: Sounds like yet another Canadian of convienence. Maybe the courts got one right for a change. It would be nice to know that someone in government is looking out for taxpayers.
  34. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: kel fitz from gueph, Canada writes: If Islam were recognized as a cult religion, we wouldn't be faced with these problems.

    .. Geesh, you're brilliant why didn't we think of the when the Christian Crusaders tried their attempt at ethnic cleansing?

    ** What a stupid statement.
  35. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Hey Kim Morton:

    .. And you are not a Canadian of convenience? I'm sure you've been completely honest on your income tax statement, right? That is, if you actually had anything much to fill out.

    ... If you're so concerned about your tax paying dollars maybe you should find out what our government does with Capitalists in this country, them maybe you would have something important to say.
  36. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Don Bryant:

    ... And I suppose only Canadians and Americans are allowed to acquire dual citizenship from other countries? Surely you know many of them do or do you?
  37. Dickie Shrinkage from Coldwater, Canada writes:

    Michael B from Canada:

    You would actually have to exile me to a country of which I am a citizen. That would be Canada. I am already here, so that part is easy. The problem is, I don't hang around with people who play 'Muslim Bowling' or fly planes into buildings, so we are going to have to come up with another way to get me on the no fly list. When we do, I could be stranded in Canada. Somehow, the thought of not being able to leave Canada doesn't fill me with the fear and frustration your are trying to convey as I don't leave the country that often as it is. What I find most interesting about your comment though, is the 'without fear of reprisal' part.

    Do you really feel that people should 'fear reprisal' for speaking their minds? Perhaps you and Mr. Abdelrazik's 'alleged' ilk have more in common than you know. Al Queda are also predisposed to condemning free speech.

    Anyway, the guy needs money. I am looking for solutions to bring back someone you consider to be a decent law abiding human being. I would have thought you would be all over this. The reality show idea could work (the Hogans are doing it). I would love to watch an hour long 'day in the life' of a suspected terrorist with known ties to thoroughly despicable people.

    I am sure he would be thrilled to know that you are here, penning mighty retorts, defending his honour. All the while, even his wife doesn't want him back.

    .
  38. Michael B from Canada writes: Dickie Shrinkage from Coldwater, Canada writes:

    Do you really feel that people should 'fear reprisal' for speaking their minds? Perhaps you and Mr. Abdelrazik's 'alleged' ilk have more in common than you know. Al Queda are also predisposed to condemning free speech.
    **************
    Free speech has its limits, as every respectable Western Democracy (note: respectable) has accepted in their hate laws, etc.

    With all your references to Mr. Abdelrazik's ilk, could you please clarify names and what they said, what they did, and why his knowing these people makes him guilty? Because the CDN government sure seems to be unable to do so. In fact, noone can really explain what he did.

    Hey, you know what? I used to go to Pizza Pizza late ate night several evenings a week, and the guy who worked there was Mohammed Harkat, so I chatted with him quite a bit. He spent years in jail and is now under strict house arrest for suspected terrorist plots - should I go to jail?

    Of course not! I'm a good little Christian white boy born and raised in Ottawa, so these extremely tenous links don't apply to me.

    Bunch of racists. You make so many assumptions and you know so little.
  39. Don Bryant from Calgary, Canada writes: Jennie MacCrae, for your information, I was not born in Canada either. HOWEVER, when I became a Canadian citizen, I did not retain my citizenship in the country of my birth. I became a Canadian citizen. PERIOD. Not a Syrian-Canadian, or a Spanish-Canadian, or a Belgian-Canadian or a Sudanese-Canadian or any other (fill in the name of the country) hyphen Candian. A Canadian. (You notice, too, that 'Canadian' is always the second name in the list - it's never Canadian-Sudanese or a Canadian-Syrian. Secondly, when I travel abroad, whether to my homeland or any other country, I avoid committing crimes, getting arrested, and expecting the Canadian government to bail me out.
  40. MR. oz from Canada writes: Great decision and leave the***&&% where he is!
  41. Between a Rock and a Hard bit from Pattaya, Thailand writes: Michael B from Canada writes: Bunch of racists. You make so many assumptions and you know so little.

    Well well well looks like we have a an honest to goodness bleeding heart lefty la la.
    Well I would much rather have you whining than have this scumbag back in Canada. Mikey boy, its flakes (and judges) just like you who are making a mockery of common sense. Common sense isn't common anymore.
    He's as much a Canadian I am a Layton supporter. NOT!
  42. Dickie Shrinkage from Coldwater, Canada writes:
    Mike.

    Nice little white boy aside, as soon as your friends start flying planes into buildings, and blowing up market places filled with innocents, you too should be placed on a no fly list. If this occurs while you are visiting your country of birth and they throw you in jail for it, don't blame Canada.

    Free travel (like free speech apparently) has its limits.

    Adieu.

    And you should be more careful about the people you allow to make your food.
  43. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Don Bryant:

    ... I fail to see where he has done anything wrong. And, btw do you know you sound like a nationalist.

    ... As far as Canadian being the 'second' name has no meaning here. Who do think writes those names in that order on their applications? Immigration maybe?
  44. Bob Beal from Edmonton, Canada writes: Michael B: You're right about free speech having its limits. One of those limits is the defamation laws. And, in defamation actions, it is up to the alleged defamer to prove his case.

    For example, if someone accuses an indentifiable individual of committing a crime, it is up to the accuser to prove the allegation.

    There are not very many defamation actions that actually reach trial in Canada. Most are dropped or settled. But I sat through one once. A reporter had written that a businessman had Mafia connections. The businessman sued and won because the reporter, though he had what he thought was enough evidence, could not back up the allegation to the judge's satisfaction.

    I think it is inevitable, perhaps more sooner than later, that someone who is a victim of attacks on comment boards such as this will sue. Then, things will get interesting.
  45. Michael B from Canada writes: Bob Beal from Edmonton, Canada, is that a threat? Your comment is brimming with menace but it doesn't seem to have a clear direction. Assuming you are threatening me or at least suggesting my comments should be the subject of some sort of legal action, I would like to point out that (as per your helpful elucidation) defamation requires that I target an identifiable individual.

    My comments, unfortunately, are targeted at an anonymous poster whose name is a lewd joke (I'll assume that you get the joke).

    Further, given that you quoted me as saying 'Bunch of racists', are you inferring that that comment could be considered defamation (had he been an identifiable individual, of course)? Because his reference to 'Muslim Bowling' certainly could be considered a comment that justifies my accusation.

    Did you follow the proceeding in BC between the radio host and the anti-gay protestor? He won. She was outrageous, and he said what he believed to be true, and he was cleared.
  46. Michael B from Canada writes: Hey Dickie: Senator McCarthy called, he wants his shtick back.

    I need say no more.
  47. Michael B from Canada writes: Between a Rock and a Hard bit from Pattaya, Thailand writes: Well I would much rather have you whining than have this scumbag back in Canada. Mikey boy, its flakes (and judges) just like you who are making a mockery of common sense. Common sense isn't common anymore.
    He's as much a Canadian I am a Layton supporter. NOT!
    ****************
    Uh, common sense dictates that we don't call Canadian citizens scumbags until they are charged with someone. Just because some jumpy government pointed the finger doesn't make him guilty: look at Maher Arar (and thank God for his strength to persevere in the pursuit of exoneration). Why isn't he a Canadian? Do you want to define what constitutes a Canadian please? Because last time I checked we, as a nation, aggressively pursue immigration, multiculturalism, etc. It's only post-9/11 that all the crazies (such as yourself) have had a national voice, and the only reason you have any support is the most powerful man in the world is a child who thinks like you.
  48. kel fitz from gueph, Canada writes: Jennie MacCrae- you seem to be nothing more than a troll. If you cannot accept wide discourse by what Canadians think or feel, perhaps a move back to Scotland would be more to your overly-sensitive liking?
  49. Michael B from Canada writes: Between a Rock and a Hard bit from Pattaya, Thailand writes: He's as much a Canadian I am a Layton supporter. NOT!
    *****
    Oh, and the 'NOT' changed the meaning of your comment to suggest that there is an inverse relationship between how much of a Jack Layton supporter you are and how much of a Canadian citizen he is. So you actually are saying he's very much a Canadian citizen given that you're obviously very much not a Jack Layton supporter.
  50. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: kel fitz from gueph, Canada:

    ... Well aren't you the pot calling the kettle black. Who's having a hard time with people's opinions? Such a hypocrite.
  51. Michael B from Canada writes: kel fitz from gueph, Canada writes: Jennie MacCrae- you seem to be nothing more than a troll. If you cannot accept wide discourse by what Canadians think or feel, perhaps a move back to Scotland would be more to your overly-sensitive liking?
    *****
    Hahaha, you haven't succeeded until they've made a personal attack on you. I love it. Keep up the good work Jennie, they're getting angry, and when they get angry they just get even less intelligible.
  52. Bob Beal from Edmonton, Canada writes: Michael B: I was trying to give you some ammunition, not attack you. I am sorry I didn't put it clearly enough. It is lucky I glanced back at this comment board.

    As I see it here, you are arguing with someone with a stupid name who is making allegations of criminal activity against an individual. I don't see you making such serious allegations, and I did not say you were. (As well, I did not quote you as saying anything about racists.)

    There is a tendency on these boards for some people to say things that are not only abusive but at least borderline illegal. People on these boards get away with far, far more than I could ever do when I wrote for newspapers.

    I don't attack, menace, or defame anyone on these boards. I can't afford to, partly because I use my real name.
  53. Between a Rock and a Hard bit from Pattaya, Thailand writes: Michael B, I'm sorry your not a flake. Your special, very very special. HOW MANY HOURS A DAY DO THEY ALLOW YOU TO USE THE COMPUTER?
    Oh darn! times up. Meds time, then mac and cheese, and off for a nap.
    We can bring your buddy back and he can be in the next room (padded room that is) and you can talk all day about how bad the Canadian gov't is. Hell, you can even write to Harper, I'll send you the crayons.
  54. Michael B from Canada writes: Bob Beal, thank you kindly for the response. I appreciate the clarification, and I agree that some of the things that are said are quite disturbing and, if said in a more formal forum, could certainly lead to legal action.

    When they go too far (references to Taliban Jack, etc.), I alert editors. But it would seem that that is little more one can do.

    I do hope that someone is exploring the possibility of laying defamation suits against 'bloggers' or 'forum posters' or whatever, as I think that the freedom furnished by one's anonymity on the web is abused far too often.
  55. Between a Rock and a Hard bit from Pattaya, Thailand writes: Hows that Bob?
  56. Michael B from Canada writes: Between a Rock and a Hard bit from Pattaya, Thailand writes: your descent into childish attempts at character assassination are most gratifying. I have made my point for all who read this that you are ignorant, don't have a leg to stand on, and can't back up anything that you say.
  57. Don Bryant from Calgary, Canada writes: Michael B from Canada writes: . . . look at Maher Arar . . .

    -----------

    Yes, look at him. $10 million richer after ripping the Canadian taxpayer off for some alleged mistreatment that supposedly happened to him in Syria (NOT Canada). At least the Americans had the good sense to throw his case out of court when he tried to rip them off for even more money.
  58. Gogh Forit from Canada writes: How's this as a solution for all those Canadians of convenience. Once you get your citizenship, you must spend nine months of every year in Canada for the first five years of your new citizenship. Included in that stay is at least two winter months.
    That way new Canadians would get to share in the joy that we Canadians who were born here get to experience every year. As was proven with the Lebanese evacuation two years ago when hostilities boiled over. Many of those 'Canadians' screamed, complained and harshly criticized the Canadian government for not getting them out of there faster and what happened in the end. The majority of these convenience Canadians went right back to Lebanon as soon as everything was again relatively peaceful.

    Citizens like that, Canada does not need.
  59. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Don Bryant from Calgary, Canada writes: Michael B from Canada writes: . . . look at Maher Arar . .

    *** Excuse me????? Who got the raw deal here? Have you read about Maher's case? He deserves every penny.
  60. The Majordomo of Baie Comeau from Canada writes: Why does this guy have to fly? He could make his way to the Red Sea and get on a ship. If he can't afford it, tough!

    I don't ask the Canadian government to pay for my travelling expenses, even if I was to go broke while overseas. Same goes for any debts I may incur while abroad such as legal fees.
  61. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Of-course my last post was directed at Don Bryant, who else.
  62. Kathleen Degelder from Canada writes: And the Angels shall separate them.
  63. Between a Rock and a Hard bit from Pattaya, Thailand writes: Okay Mikey boy lets not get your shorts in knot.
    I surely would not want you to 'alert the editors'. A loony lefty and a snitch!
    By the way its not 'Taliban Jack' anymore its 'Talliwacker Jack', keep up with the times man.

    Anyway on to Maher Arar, there's a guy who won the lottery and didn't even buy a ticket. I worked in that God forsaken third world sh*thole Syria for 2 years. My radio operator attacked the Baath party in his graduation speach from university. The secret police pulled him of the stage and beat him with a bullwhip wrapped in copper wire plugged into whatever voltage. He has scars all over his body. Evidence of torture, no doubt. Arar never showed a mark yet they swallowed the whole story and he got 10 million of your money.
  64. Ottawa Resident from Ottawa, Canada writes: It's incredible to read the self centered individuals in this conversation. Matter of fact: with exception to our native Canadians, most Canadians are from another country, mainly from Europe. We are ALL from another country, no exception (I am fifth generation but still from another country). So next time something happens to you in your native land (i.e. Ireland, France, Italy and so on...), we should let you at the mercy of another country as you are not really a Canadian. If you have a Canadian passport, YOU ARE A CANADIAN ... POINT FINALE MES AMIS..... and to talk negatively happen the ARAR is shameful.
  65. cathy . from RICHMOND, Canada writes: 'Our current government is hypocritical when it comes to human rights and civil liberties, saying one thing but doing something else'

    Our government has been very vocal in criticizing China on human rights issue.
  66. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes:
    Between a Rock and a Hard bit from Pattaya, Thailand:

    ... Ok Rock, you've got to stop getting your information from a cracker jack box. There most certainly was evidence of torture, are you kidding me, some Canadians happily participate in witch hunts in cases like this. You think if couldn't prove his case he would have won, not a chance in this great land of Canada.
  67. Mike Mike from Canada writes: I can see another Arar scam written all over this one. Hey, we are Canadian, lets bring another terrorist home.
  68. kel fitz from gueph, Canada writes: I am saddened by the personal attacks being launched by the likes of Michael B. and Jennie Mac. I thought we , as adults, could engage in a discussion without the vitriol.

    I stand committed that we face dangerous times when we become entangled in incidents involving 'Canadian' nationals in foreign lands, accused of terror activities.

    I respect all opinions, as long as they are delivered in a manner that respects the sentiments of all. Maybe some find me naive, but I'm trying my best. If I need education, fine, but please refrain from calling me things like being a 'hypocrite'. If you know something I don't - share!
  69. Right down the middle from Canada writes: Ottawa Resident from Ottawa, Canada writes: It's incredible to read the self centered individuals in this conversation. Matter of fact: with exception to our native Canadians, most Canadians are from another country, mainly from Europe. We are ALL from another country, no exception (I am fifth generation but still from another country). So next time something happens to you in your native land (i.e. Ireland, France, Italy and so on...), we should let you at the mercy of another country as you are not really a Canadian. If you have a Canadian passport, YOU ARE A CANADIAN ... POINT FINALE MES AMIS..... and to talk negatively happen the ARAR is shameful.
    -----------------------------------------------
    What the hell are you talking about? Native Land....? My relatives landed here more then 200 years ago, I can't just go back to London, France, or any of the other countries my relatives came from expect accomodation, I'm not a citizen of those countries, they are not my native lands, Canada is. And I do see a difference between someone who's relatives have been here helping build this country for generations and someone who came here for a few years, long enough to get citizenship and then leave again only to return when medical care is needed or when rescued. Screw you!!
  70. Ottawa Resident from Ottawa, Canada writes: A message to all you red neck, self centered left wing supporters---- move to the US. They would really enjoy your company as you are far from being a tolerant bunch of individuals. Canada is the land of peace, live and let live, liberal and non judgmental. True Canadians believe in the separation of religion and state (two very separate entity that do NOT mingle well) and that we look out for one another, regardless of color or background. I believe that only white supremacist would not support my above comment. For all those people that say that ARAR is a joke, that he has no visible injuries, etc.... he won his case by the very nature and management of his file by the US and Canadian government agencies. FYI, torture can be applied in many different ways, some will show no sign of physical wounds.
  71. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Right down the middle:

    ..Ottawa resident is quite accurate. And hate to rain on your parade but it is not just your family that has been here for generations helping to build Canada, but many others as well.
  72. Chris A from Canada writes: He's not Canadian!!!
  73. Right down the middle from Canada writes: Jennie I was reffering to all those other families as well. Read the post again!
  74. Ottawa Resident from Ottawa, Canada writes: Right down the middle from Canada writes.... there you go, what if your family would have landed 2 years ago instead of 200 years ago... what is the difference? In 200 years from now, the person that landed in Canada today would have his family in Canada for 200 years. Are you saying that you need a minimum amount of years in Canada to be considered a Canadian. This is total BS and very short sighted !!
  75. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: ' Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Hey Kim Morton:

    .. And you are not a Canadian of convenience? I'm sure you've been completely honest on your income tax statement, right? That is, if you actually had anything much to fill out.

    ... If you're so concerned about your tax paying dollars maybe you should find out what our government does with Capitalists in this country, them maybe you would have something important to say.'
    _____

    good heavens!!! are we being overthrown by a marxist autocracy???
  76. Ottawa Resident from Ottawa, Canada writes: Right down the middle from Canada writes ... by the way, what did your family help to built this great nation? Some would say that Canada was perfect before our ancestors arrived in Canada and raided this beautiful land. Hey, I love this country and everything that it provides our all Canadians. I have traveled all over the world and Canada is by far the best country to live in due to the fact that we are a very tolerant people. Wake up my friend
  77. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: James C:

    And I suppose your ideologies be better for Canada? Brace yourselves people if that ever happens.
  78. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'Ottawa Resident from Ottawa, Canada writes: It's incredible to read the self centered individuals in this conversation. Matter of fact: with exception to our native Canadians, most Canadians are from another country, mainly from Europe. We are ALL from another country'
    _____

    didnt have to look too far to find someone with this lame comment. anyone who was born in canada is as canadian as anyone can be. you are aware that at some point in time, even the natives in canada came from elsewhere? anyone claiming to be from ottawa should know better...
  79. Right down the middle from Canada writes: Ottawa Resident from Ottawa, Canada writes: Right down the middle from Canada writes.... there you go, what if your family would have landed 2 years ago instead of 200 years ago... what is the difference? In 200 years from now, the person that landed in Canada today would have his family in Canada for 200 years. Are you saying that you need a minimum amount of years in Canada to be considered a Canadian. This is total BS and very short sighted !!
    -------------------------------------------
    I'll say it again, if you immigrated here long enough to get citizenship only to mave back to your 'home' country, then no I don't consider you Canadian I consider you a freloader. If you came here and made it home, and stay here, than the length of time isn't relevant.
  80. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: James C, you genius, I hope you know you just made the stupidest comment ever. The Natives were the first before you and before me. Of-course until we slaughtered and cheated them off their land.
  81. Michael B from Canada writes: What do you suggest, Right Down the Middle? Should we set up 'House Un-Canadian Committees' that judge whether or not new citizens of our great land are acting Canadian enough?

    Because last time I checked immigration is incredibly rigorous and people who get through are legitimately seeking a new home. And you know what else? Who cares if they want to go and live in Lebanon for a while. Who knows why? Maybe they moved to Canada or were brought up in Canada but they had family in Lebanon who were in need of help and so they went to help them and live with them for a little while. Who are you to judge?

    What about Canadians of European descent that travel the world and end up living in other countries? Shall we revoke their citizenship because they are Canadians of convenience?

    Your thinking is twisted, and if it were ever allowed to govern we'd have another Nazi Germany on our hands. Don't call me an alarmist, buddy, that's the slope you're going down.
  82. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Right down middle earth:

    That's absurd. Do you know how many Canadians and Americans have dual citizenship, the biggest reason why we will never do away with it so suck it up it's here to stay.
  83. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: James C, you genius, I hope you know you just made the stupidest comment ever. The Natives were the first before you and before me. Of-course until we slaughtered and cheated them off their land.'
    ______

    your comment only reveals your ignorance of the issue of immigation to north america. the length of time a group has been in the country/area is irrelevant, the fact is, at some point in time, all people in north america are and have been immigrants. the natives may have been here before you and me, but they were still at one point, immigrants.
  84. Ottawa Resident from Ottawa, Canada writes: Right down the middle from Canada writes ... your reasoning makes no sense to the educated mind. Length of time? Freeloader? You must leave in fear day long.

    James C from Shenzhen, China writes... you are absolutely right. If we go way back in time, we all come from the same region which makes us all family. So why discriminate?

    For both of you: Countries are built by individuals and these individuals come from all corners of the world. The Nazi's believe that by eliminating a certain part of their people, their land would become more prosperous and strong. Are they still in power? This ideology is only good for the short term, not for the long term. At the end, what counts is that if we, people living in Canada and our elected officials provide the citizenship and passports to an individual moving to Canada, this person has all the rights of Canadians. Unless you would prefer a two tier society?
  85. Michael B from Canada writes: James C from Shenzhen, China, your comment makes no sense. Ottawa Resident was simply showing that we are all descended from immigrants at some point, and so new Canadians are just as deservedly Canadian as the rest of us.
  86. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: James C:

    *** You would be the only person with any kind of education to claim that. Canada truly belongs to the Natives whether you like it or not and they are not immigrants nor have they ever been referred as such.
  87. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'kel fitz from gueph, Canada writes: I am saddened by the personal attacks being launched by the likes of Michael B. and Jennie Mac. I thought we , as adults, could engage in a discussion without the vitriol.'
    _____

    dont hold your brath for any civil replies kel. at any rate, enjoy the show. the government is strengthening the immigration policies of our country so that only those who have the desire to become canadians and the skills to succeed in life will gain entry.
  88. Right down the middle from Canada writes: Ottawa Resident from Ottawa, Canada writes: Right down the middle from Canada writes ... by the way, what did your family help to built this great nation? Some would say that Canada was perfect before our ancestors arrived in Canada and raided this beautiful land. Hey, I love this country and everything that it provides our all Canadians. I have traveled all over the world and Canada is by far the best country to live in due to the fact that we are a very tolerant people. Wake up my friend
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    They did what every other early Canadian did when they landed here, worked hard. And please don't preach to me about tolerance, my wife is a different race and religion I'm as tolerant as one can be, but it doesn't mean that I think it's fine for people to exploit this countrie's social systems and then thumb there noses at our values and culture.
  89. Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: James C:

    .... Then what ever will we do with you?
  90. Dickie Shrinkage from Coldwater, Canada writes:
    The Majordomo of Baie Comeau,

    Don't even try to propose ideas on how to get this clown home. You'll just get shot down by Mike B. He's not really looking for ideas you know. That would mean he has to step down from his soap box.

    Oh, and don't mention his friend the pizza maker, he's really touchy about that.

    .
  91. Right down the middle from Canada writes: Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: Right down middle earth:

    That's absurd. Do you know how many Canadians and Americans have dual citizenship, the biggest reason why we will never do away with it so suck it up it's here to stay.
    ------------------------------------------------------
    There are many Canadian's around the world the are citizens of convenience. I don't agree with it. Not sure why you do.
  92. Right down the middle from Canada writes: Ottawa Resident from Ottawa, Canada writes: Right down the middle from Canada writes ... your reasoning makes no sense to the educated mind. Length of time? Freeloader? You must leave in fear day long.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    They are called citizens fo convenience.... You can't understand that logic, and you call me unintelligent?
  93. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'Jennie MacCrae from Canada from Canada writes: James C:

    *** You would be the only person with any kind of education to claim that. Canada truly belongs to the Natives whether you like it or not and they are not immigrants nor have they ever been referred as such.'
    _____

    believe what you like. in the end i wont stoop to the low level of discussion that you have on here LOL
  94. Ottawa Resident from Ottawa, Canada writes: James C from Shenzhen, China writes... you are one self centered individual ... so now let's start testing for people that have mental sickness living in Canada and deported them somewhere else (as an example). Do you really think that immigrants come to Canada to live on our welfare system? They actually perform the job that us Canadians refuse to do, the hard labor. I am a white color with 15 years of blue color experience. The construction industry is full of immigrants working hard to make a living. You are insulting all people that are working hard in building this country, INCLUDING immigrants. Get a life, or instead get an education.
  95. Michael B from Canada writes: James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'kel fitz from gueph, Canada writes: I am saddened by the personal attacks being launched by the likes of Michael B. and Jennie Mac. I thought we , as adults, could engage in a discussion without the vitriol.'
    _____

    dont hold your brath for any civil replies kel. at any rate, enjoy the show. the government is strengthening the immigration policies of our country so that only those who have the desire to become canadians and the skills to succeed in life will gain entry.
    -----------------
    Good grief, if you consider your first post to have been adult discussion, you are most sadly mistaken. Calling the religion of approx 1/5 of the world a cult is most definitely not adult discussion.:

    'kel fitz from gueph, Canada writes: If Islam were recognized as a cult religion, we wouldn't be faced with these problems.'
    -------
    So please, please, when you're condescending to several billion people, don't complain about being 'attacked'
    • Posted 07/07/08 at 3:37 PM EST |