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Church of England split on women bishops

MEERA SELVA

Associated Press

Latest comment posted at 4:17 PM EDT 08/07/08

More than a dozen other Anglican churches around the world have authorized women to serve as bishops ...Read the full article

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  1. RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: To ordain women bishopesses is to call Jesus a sexist for only have male apostles!

    Swim the Tiber, Anglo-Catholics! You will be welcomed home and love it!!
  2. F/A josquin from Canada writes:
    Irrelevant religion, idiotic conundrum-----the very question demonstrates eloquently, the stupidity of god belief.

    there is no god
  3. bethany middleton from Canada writes: RIGHT, your argument makes absolutely no sense. Just because we decide on something relevant for 2001 does not mean that what may or may not have happened two thousand years ago was wrong. Secondly, did Jesus (Whoever he was and if he existed) have bishops? No. This whole hierarchical structure has nothing to do with faith or with Christian belief. It is, quite literally, a man made creation - a patriarchal institution designed to remove any trace of women. I remember the furore over the ordination of women in the Anglican church during the 1990s. The misogyny of many 'church leaders' was unbelievable. The authority on which they spoke was flimsy at best.
  4. Lowen Wrainger from Canada writes: In other words, by declaration, one group with a new stance says that the old group with a traditional stance can't be that way anymore. Gee, sounds like intolerance all over again. Yet at the same time these same leaders are advocating more dialogue and acceptance of those religions that openly subjugate women. Funny-Mentalists & Infant-a-dels!!!!
  5. Robert Boyd from Windsor, Canada writes: Good for them.Now if they can subscribe to the Thirty Nine Articles and get off the road to Rome, it will be a Protestant Church once again.
  6. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: The Catholic Church proved long ago that doctrines could change, be invented, etc. So I don't consider this a big deal.

    After all, God didn't find out that He was a Trinity until the 4th century.

    Interesting how the Eastern Orthodox folks consider the Catholic Church to be a schismatic church; makes ya think.

    Pass the popcorn. . . . WHAT ? We're OUT, again ????
  7. Reader Interested from toronto, Canada writes: I often wonder when words such as 'tradition' are bandied about - which, what, whose tradition are we talking about? Within the Christian church there are myriad conflicting traditions - even within Anglican denominations. How far back do we have to go to authenticate tradition?
    I seem to recall Jesus as a man who flouted a tradition or two in his day! I think I'll stick with that tradition! Revolution is a good thing...women Bishops are a good thing.
  8. Peter S from Toronto, Canada writes: The argument that Jesus and the disciples were men and therefore women can't be ordained as bishops is beyond ludicrous. Jesus was jewish, but Christians apparently don't feel that is something they should be emulating. To try and uphold 2000 year old beliefs that fly in the face of equality is beyond ludicrous.
  9. Wulfher SkullSplitter from Canada writes: It is simply time to shut the churches down. Let this archaic system die.
  10. RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: Bethany: what is 'Christian belief' if Jesus never existed??
  11. ginny ! from Canada writes:
    guess what? priests aren't apostles. So the whole 'only male apostles' argument is a load of hot air.

    The Anglican Church has had women priests (or 'ministers' if you like) for ages. Anyone who didn't like the idea of women bishops should have quit the church long ago.
  12. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: F/A josquin from Canada writes: '... Irrelevant religion, idiotic conundrum-----the very question demonstrates eloquently, the stupidity of god belief...'
    =====================

    I should hardly think people's actions have any bearing on whether there is or is not universal consciousness, universal ideals or a universal source for all things, anymore than such actions can change the nature of thought, spirit of kindness or the actual reality scientific theories of origin attempt to discuss.

    At this rate I expect you'll grind that axe of yours to dust by Christmas! LOL
  13. BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    The Anglican Church can do whatever it wants. That is what living in a democracy provides.

    Something to consider... the winds of contemporary political temperament ought not change a moral standard.

    To do so lowers the moral authority to a fleeting single insignificant voice.

    The power of symbol, which will be availed with the collapse of the AC, will be a tribute to the AC's moral relativism and consequential irrelevance.

    But the AC can do whatever it wants.....and the parishioners can go wherever they want too. No let us wait and see.

    ..//
  14. Troubled Youth from Everywhere, Canada writes: Does this mean men can become leaders of Feminist organisations now? Or is this idea of equality still only a one way street?
  15. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: Bethany: what is 'Christian belief' if Jesus never existed??
    ============

    The spirit of christ has always existed and can no more cease to exist than can the spirit of kindness. Jesus was therefore only important because of the message he embodied and not for his own sake. He said as much many times.

    If one studies the disciplines and philosophies that Jesus of Nazareth studied, it becomes immediately apparent that the embodiment of christ is not a one time deal, but in fact an analogy for the coming of saviours from across time that one can identify by their 'fruit'.

    If one casts aside the dogma of the church and focuses on the full context of what Jesus believed and taught, then it becomes immediately apparent that he was teaching people to follow in his footsteps, ie. embody the spirit of christ.

    This is far more powerful than 'the hanged god' of Roman myth that he was made to emulate after his death.
  16. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: BUB ImumI from Canada writes: '... Something to consider... the winds of contemporary political temperament ought not change a moral standard...'

    As long as we're discussing the universal ideals and principles that one embodies through the spirit of Christ, then I agree.

    However, it would appear to me that one's sex is relavent only as a matter of history and tradition, neither of which should override the ideals and principles; to do so would be to teach man's laws as god's laws, which is decidedly very un-christian given that Jesus specifically criticized such things.
  17. Opinion in Toronto from Toronto, Canada writes: Traditionalists in the Anglican Church should remember that not only did Jesus select men to be his disciples/apostles, he also chose only Jews. If what Jesus chose is the determining criterion, then the ranks of Anglican bishops should be decimated.
  18. c rob from Canada writes: According to biblical scholars one of the earliest passages in the Old Testament is the 'Song of Deborah', which harkens back to the time when, oh my goodness say it isn't so, women were accorded priestess status. In the Old Testament? Yup.
    Also, it is important to remember the special status accorded the Magdalene in the New Testament despite the attempts by early Church 'fathers' to blacken her name.
    All Christianity is doing right now is going back to its roots, which recognized women not as sinners or harlots, but as embodiments of the holy spirit as much as their male counterparts.
  19. Duncan McCockinue from Behind ya!, Canada writes:

    This is a great idea. Woman are statistically less likely to commit sex crimes against children. If we can convince the Catholic church to follow suit (and ordain female priests and bishops) we could put an end to all that 'grab a$$' going on in the rectory.

    Why not go a step further and make sure that women are the only ones allowed to be priests and bishops?

    .
  20. Al Gorman from Canada writes: The head of the Church of England is a woman. Where is the problem here? Elizabeth II is the Supreme Governor of the church and appoints the archbishops of Cantenbury and York, bishops, and deans of cathedrals. England has entangled religion and politics for ages and enshrined the monarch as head of the church since Henry VIII. There is no obvious contradiction in having appointed bishops or arch bishops of the female gender recognizing the birth right of the british monarch as head of the church.
  21. Troubled Youth from Everywhere, Canada writes: If religion wasn't bad enough...it also must be political...and of course politically correct...I'm guessing the true religionist must be faithful in that politics as well as the dogma and doctrine. Must be difficult turning a mens club into a womens club with out a little hiding of politic and doctrine.
  22. BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    Phil.. I refuse to express my opinion on the matter since it is unimportant.

    you say: 'However, it would appear to me that one's sex is relavent only as a matter of history and tradition'

    If one is a follower of the Christian Church then one ought to adhere to it's principles. The Christian Church was started by JC and he never appointed any female [bishops].

    His choice to do this seems significant, by virture that it is being discussed even today.

    Now females may choose to be ministers etc, but they cannot claim so with the authority of JC. JC never named any.

    Right or wrong.. he never did

    ..//
  23. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: c rob from Canada writes: According to biblical scholars one of the earliest passages in the Old Testament is the 'Song of Deborah', which harkens back to the time when, oh my goodness say it isn't so, women were accorded priestess status. In the Old Testament? Yup.
    ================

    Not to mention that the gospel according to Mary Magdelene, which was written within two generations of her death by her followers adds considerable context to the events of that time period.

    What the church does or doesn't do is highly irrelavent to the actual realities that christian spirituality centers around, but it CAN mislead or enlighten many people, so the church's attitude does matter as a human social institution. Because of this, if the church doesn't watch out, they will be deemed both irrelavent and harmful, at which point they will be driven out of mainstream society.

    It is almost that way already.
  24. Eddie Kated from Toronto, Canada writes:

    You don't have to like women Bishops, but why spit on them?

    .
  25. J Law from Canada writes: Let the churchs stay open but tax them. If you want to belong to a church then have the church pay taxs like every other club that has revenues and expenses. You can be a Christian without having a church.
  26. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: BUB: According to the NT (and I'm certainly not claiming that any account therein is historically accurate, BTW), JC never appointed ANY bishops or ordained any priests.

    Next point, please.
  27. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: BUB ImumI from Canada writes: '...If one is a follower of the Christian Church then one ought to adhere to it's principles...'

    Fair enough, but precluding women from being bishops is a tradition. It is not mentioned by a single prophet or by christ as being a principle, and he was very explicit about the principles one should follow.

    '...Now females may choose to be ministers etc, but they cannot claim so with the authority of JC. JC never named any...'

    Another matter of debate in reference to historical revisionism. The gospel according to Mary Magdelene is actually one of the earlier documents to be written, and her followers would have disagreed with you vehemently.

    She is the one referenced as 'the one Jesus loved' or 'the beloved'. Many assumed this was John since Jesus told him to watch over his mother when he died, but according to the account of Mary's followers in the 2nd century, this actually refers to her.

    In other words it is a debatable point and so ultimately it is the interpretation of people alive today which is driving this, not some principle or ideal written in stone.
  28. BUB ImumI from Canada writes:
    ..//

    Duncan McCockinue from Behind ya!, Canada writes:

    'This is a great idea. Woman are statistically less likely to commit sex crimes against children. ... Catholic....'

    Duncan,

    I beg to differ with you. The most dangerous place a child can be w r t sexual assault is the public school system.

    One in 4 girls and one in 8 boys will be sexually assaulted by teachers (male and female, married and unmarried).

    I cite the NY City schools survey.

    The Safest place for a child is in a the care of the Catholic Church especially since the purge.

    ..//
  29. RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: I ignore theology lectures from those who refuse to capitalize Christ
  30. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: BUB: . . . Who got 'purged' ? The heretics ? AGAIN ?
  31. BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    Mr. Justice... I did use [] square brackets in anticipation of and to accommodate your limited critique.

    ..//
  32. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: J Law from Canada writes: Let the churchs stay open but tax them. If you want to belong to a church then have the church pay taxs like every other club that has revenues and expenses. You can be a Christian without having a church.
    ===============

    I'd argue the opposite actually. I've never understood why the government taxes clubs or social networks of any type. Afterall, this is donated money coming from people who already paid taxes for pete's sake.

    Besides, given the state of many churches today, you might find they become an actual drain on the tax system rather than a net contributor.
  33. BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    Mr. Justice from Canada writes: BUB: . . . Who got 'purged' ? The heretics ? AGAIN ?'

    The Church instituted a programme to prevent homosexual men from entering the Church. It also recently excommunicated a number of women claiming to be priests. It also defrocked all priests found guilty of crimes against children.

    The school system is yet to disclose all if its disciplinary actions against teachers and all of the complaints logged by parents.

    ..//
  34. A Canadian Girl from Toronto, Canada writes: The Anglican Church of Canada has had women bishops for over 10 years. They should get with the program in England!
  35. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: I ignore theology lectures from those who refuse to capitalize Christ

    Then the spirit is lost on you.
  36. BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    Phil... seriously... you are arguing based on a sketchy reference...which nobody has assigned to any particular Mary.....

    Ok.. that is up to you.

    ..//
  37. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: BUB ImumI from Canada writes: '...The Church instituted a programme to prevent homosexual men from entering the Church. It also recently excommunicated a number of women claiming to be priests. It also defrocked all priests found guilty of crimes against children...'

    I support this statment. The anglican church, unlike the Catholic church, has taken great pains to deal with the issue of clerical abuse.
  38. BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    Back to the subject at hand...

    The Anglican Church..and its schism.

    It will be interesting to watch.

    ..//
  39. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    Phil... seriously... you are arguing based on a sketchy reference...which nobody has assigned to any particular Mary.....

    =================

    I accept that it is not universally accepted, but encourage you to read the gospel according to Mary Magdelene. The document comes from the same relative time period as the others and it becomes immediately apparent 'which Mary' it is discussing.

    One of Jesus' closest spritual partners was a women.
  40. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: BUB: . . . Why are you claiming that some priests sexually abused children ? A claim like that = 'anti-Catholic bigotry'.
  41. c rob from Canada writes: HI Phil King
    Thanks for your posts as always. I have read the translated version of the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, fragmented as it is. It, like many of the earlier texts, speaks more to the spiritual rather than the structure, which would never sit well with anyone who thinks that the New Testament and New Testament only is the difinitive word on the teachings of the Christ. The Gnostic texts are only now being given the consideration and study truly due them and it is FINALLY being acknowledged that they were an important part of early Christian faith. Never should have been excluded to begin with.

    Much research continues to be done on the Magdalene. What we do know already however, is that at no point in early Church teachings was she a prostitute.

    My friends and I always used to laugh and say that in Christianity our role models were either a virgin or a whore. Since neither one seemed appealing we turned our backs on the structures but not the spirit.
  42. RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: which 'spirit' is that?? Nothing to do with the Holy Spirit I can promise you
  43. BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    Phil.. Wit is a poor substitute for cold facts.

    Sexual abuse is far more prevalent in the Protestant clergy than the Roman Catholic clergy. So if you have facts that dispute that, and you ought to since you just made a statement, then please post a link.

    ..//

    BTW yes I do have a citation:

    http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuseinsocial_context.htm

    ..//
  44. BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    this is too easy..

    gone
    ..//
  45. c rob from Canada writes: The Holy Spirit is different than the Trinity.
  46. RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: re: Gospel of Mary Magdalene...

    methinks its fans mistook The Davinci Code as a documentary.. ha-ha!
  47. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: BUB ImumI from Canada writes: '...Phil.. Wit is a poor substitute for cold facts. Sexual abuse is far more prevalent in the Protestant clergy than the Roman Catholic clergy. So if you have facts that dispute that, and you ought to since you just made a statement, then please post a link...'

    I was referring mostly to the PR of the churches Bubbles. The Catholic church has done little to appear contrite on the issue while the Anglican church has issued formal apologies.

    As far as the reality of continued abuse, I don't think any of the churches have dealt with it nearly as well as they should.
  48. It Is What It Is.... from Canada writes: Duncan McCockinue from Behind ya!, Canada writes: This is a great idea. Woman are statistically less likely to commit sex crimes against children.
    ------------------------------

    Statistics show that married men are most likely to commit sex crimes. Since that is true we should only have un married women as priests, teachers, coaches, scout leaders, etc.

    Women have a part in the Church (the real church that is) and its not as a priest or as a bishop.
  49. Nassar Ben Houdja from Canada writes: A bit of women's liberation amongst all the religions would go a long way in promoting a little Christian brotherhood.
    Atheists have been around a long time and frequently quote logic, reason or blind denial in their 'faith' surely after years of evolution they could do a better job of portraying their beliefs other than dogmatically pontificating a lack of belief. Truly intelligent design does not describe them at all.
  50. c rob from Canada writes: Right is Correct

    Methinks you need to read more. A translated copy of this gospel can be purchased at a bookstore or ordered in if need be. And FYI, I had my copy well before that movie was ever heard of. So time to shake the head a bit.
  51. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: BUB: . . . We hope you won't run away next time from a discussion.

    The idea that religions don't change their doctrines is laughable; it happens, despite claims to the contrary.
  52. Scary Fundamentalist from Vancouver, Canada writes: The argument that Christ only appointed male apostles isn't proof that he only wanted male priests/ministers/bishops/overseers. However, it is clear in Paul's letters that gender roles must be respected.

    Jesus certainly bucked many of the Jewish-constructed laws during his time on earth. But isn't it kind of curious that there is no mention of his disapproval of the Jewish laws regarding the roles of men and women?

    As for this Mary Magdalene stuff, did you read that in the National Enquirer? I've got a Gospel of the Scary Fundamentalist for your scholars to study. Really, it was written in the 2nd century AD...
  53. jan bakker from Canada writes: Sad ,how so many churches are falling apart due to bibical arguments regarding homosexuality and women in office. However the division is not unexpected as the bible predicted that in end times many would be decieved and depart from the word.The christian church declares the bible as the infallable word of God forever, yet so many false christians want to change that word which is daylight clear on such matters. I,d call that infilltration and deception by the evil one and his followers.
  54. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: which 'spirit' is that?? Nothing to do with the Holy Spirit I can promise you

    ======================

    Turning a blind eye to spiritual debate on the mere basis of capitalizing written words is making idols out of those words.

    When you reference the 'holy spirit' in manner you have done, you take a human model of a vast universal reality and assume the model to be the reality, as thought the map and the terrain do not differ.

    This is no more practical or real than personifying god as a being which sits upon thrones, when those quotes were clearly written as a metaphor for something one cannot easily discuss.

    It is the primary reason 'godly' things are taught through parable. One cannot reduce these concepts to mere labels and retain their meaning, so metaphor is employed to bridge the gap between the real and the ideal.
  55. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: jan bakker: . . . How long have 'the end times' taken, so far ? About 2000 years, so far ?

    BTW, which denomination has the 'true' Christians ? I'm taking a survey, and so far no one who denounces 'false Christians' is willing to answer the question . . . they're only willing to run away from it.

    Do YOU have an answer to it ?
  56. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: It is funny how many church apologists line up to decry the dead sea scrolls, most especially since they all date to same time period as Mathew, Mark, Luke or John.

    Those who disregard these historical texts are merely attempting to avoid the blatant discrepancies between them that tear at the church's dogmatic frabric.

    The gospel according to Mary Magdelene is neither imagined nor fabricated tabloid nonsense. It was written following the death of Mary Magdelene and tells her story. If nothing else it provides context and clarifies many things.
  57. John Hertz from Ottawa, Canada writes: Yes Jon Bakker how awful that churches are falling apart because some think women should have rights and churches can no longer persecute homosexuals.

    How you must long for the days when women were burnt as witches and non believers were tortured and murdered boy the all knowing church.

    The problem with many people who believe in the bible is that they are ignorant of the history of the bible and deny the contractions, cruelty and down right nonsense of the bible.

    The only reason why Christianity exists to this day was because of a pagan Roman emperor who saw some political expedience in letting it exist.

    Thank god for the rise of secularism that despite the teachings of the Christian churches have changed society for the better.

    The faster humanity can give up this superstitous nonsense of god, gods or whatever the better we will be.
  58. Scary Fundamentalist from Vancouver, Canada writes: Mr Justice: Almost every Christian believe that only God knows the heart. You can only be sure if you yourself are a 'true' Christian. As such, it is impossible to tell which denomination has the 'true' Christians.

    Just as we know 'False Christians' exist, but we can never say for sure who they are.
  59. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: jan bakker from Canada writes: '...The christian church declares the bible as the infallable word of God forever, yet so many false christians want to change that word which is daylight clear on such matters. I,d call that infilltration and deception by the evil one and his followers...'

    Let's assume you are correct. Which changes are you objecting to? The ones made in the 5rd, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th or 18th centuries? Others perhaps?

    To use your metaphor, the 'evil one' is forever at work because it, like christ, is a spirit embodied by people, rather than a physical entity. It's reality is eternal, but subject to the intentional expression of people.

    From my perspective the spirit is ideal and known by its fruits. Beyond this, all else is merely supporting documentation and discussion. You could therefore burn every last physical fragment of christianity, and yet you could not kill it, for its source is universal ideals that are eternal and forever available.

    One merely need seek them to find them.
  60. jan bakker from Canada writes: Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes:Not to mention that the gospel according to Mary Magdelene, which was written within two generations of her death by her followers adds considerable context to the events of that time period.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Excuse me, but the so called gospel of mary has been proven phony long ago. The only Gospels are of Jesus's teachings and life,written and recorded by Matthew, Mark,luke and John,his disiples. Real christians only follow the one and only true saviour, Jesus Christ the son of God. Real christians listen only to those who proclaim Christ as the only way, such as Paul,Peter,John,Timothyand other apostals.
    Any doctrine or teachings contradictory to bibical teachings is false ,from the father of lies.
  61. c rob from Canada writes: Phil King
    Why not introduce the pesher method into this and really get knickers in a knot?
  62. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: jan bakker from Canada: Your god is a living god, not a dead one existing in only a limited number of passages written by men long dead.

    To suggest otherwise is to suggest that god no longer creates and that nothing new shall ever exist. Worse, it assumes that there are no underlying ideals or principles by which the universal operates.

    Jesus says '...you shall know them by their fruits...'

    He didn't say you'd know them because this book or that book says so.

    '...you shall know them by their fruits...' ie. you will know them by what they produce, not because someone else says so.

    You were taught by Jesus to pray alone. This is because you relationship with god belongs between the two of you and no one else.

    By refusing to accept the evidence of your own eyes and confirmation of your own heart, you render this relationship meaningless.

    Either you trust god, or you don't.
  63. c rob from Canada writes: While we are on the subject of 'fakes' since the Donation of Constantine has been proven without a doubt to be an outright forgery, can we look forward to the Vatican giving back the land, not to mention the treasures within its walls?
  64. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: c rob from Canada writes: Phil King
    Why not introduce the pesher method into this and really get knickers in a knot?
    =========

    I'm impressed you recognized it, because this is essentially what I'm doing, only in a modern context based on Cabbalistic philosophies.
  65. Old Edmonton Man from Edmonton, Canada writes: If the head of the Church of England, the queen of England, is a woman, why can't her underlings be women also?
  66. jan bakker from Canada writes: Mr. Justice from Canada writes: jan bakker: . . . How long have 'the end times' taken, so far ? About 2000 years, so far ?
    BTW, which denomination has the 'true' Christians ? I'm taking a survey, and so far no one who denounces 'false Christians' is willing to answer the question . . . they're only willing to run away from it.

    Do YOU have an answer to it ?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yes I do have an answer to your question about end times, but the answer would baffle you just as the answer to why the sky is blue would a child. One must have an advanced knowledge, and belief in the bible to understand.
    Which denomination has true christians? None. Only those who believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God ,that he died for our sins,and trust and obey ,are true christians. Nothing more, nothing less!
  67. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: jan: . . . There are various versions of the Gospels floating around, and they do NOT all agree (e.g., Mark vs. Mark, etc.).

    In any case, these various versions of the Gospels were written decades after the events that they purportedly 'record'.

    I'm still waiting to hear which denomination(s) has(have) 'true' Christians in it(them); the bit about 'anyone who follows the teachings of the Gospels is a true Christian' doesn't cut it, BTW . . . that's just another evasion.
  68. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: jan: You evade the question about the end times . . . by claiming that someone needs 'advanced knowledge' ? YIKES: Look up what the Christian version of the Gnostics believed . . . you've adopted their approach.

    Thanks for admitting that you can't answer the question.
  69. James Gill from Vancouver, Canada writes: Dyed-in-the-wool angry members of the Church of England need not worry--the Province of the Southern Cone will be along any day now to undermine Caterbury and York.
  70. Troubled Youth from Everywhere, Canada writes: Old Edmonton Man, that's the whole point. Once you allow women in they will leave their underlings hanging in the sacristy.
  71. jan bakker from Canada writes: Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: jan bakker from Canada: Your god is a living god
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Exactly,He alone is the one and only true God of all ages,there is none like him, and his word and truth endures forever.

    Being obedient to God and His Word - 'Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'' (Mathew 22:37) Desire God. Desire the things of God. 'This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.' (Deuteronomy 30: 19-20)

    Matthew5:18 ,For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
  72. Hypo Critic from Canada writes: Churches, Mosques, Temples all existed way before 2000 years ago. There were called community centres back then. Then the religious crowd moved in and took over and started controlling the general public!!!

    What is the point of having million dollar building when it has no purpose other than to bring us closer to 'god' whom nobody ever have seen?
  73. Crusty Curmudgeon from Ottawa, Canada writes: All churches are businesses. They what they need to do in order to survive.

    Believing in one church over another is like believing in one political party over another -- a waste of time and energy (unless you have a vested interest in seeing them succeed).

    I do differentiate between church and God.

    Discussion of the existence of God is quite another thing.
  74. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: jan bakker from Canada: The pharisees claimed advanced knowledge too, but Jesus called them blind leaders of the blind teaching men's laws as god's laws.

    So how do we know the truthful from the liars then?

    We know them by their 'fruits'.

    What are your fruits on this board so far?
  75. Hypo Critic from Canada writes: Mr. Justice from Canada writes:
    I'm still waiting to hear which denomination(s) has(have) 'true' Christians in it(them);

    ***
    Justice there are NO 'true' Christians! How many 'true' Christians can say that they have never lied in their life?
  76. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: jan bakker from Canada
    Posted 08/07/08 at 1:14 PM EDT

    All true, and yet you should not make the mistake of assuming the map to be the terrain. To do so is classic idolatry.

    The bible is one map by which people may find god, but ultimately the universal exists regardless of the bible, and so too the truth.
  77. Troubled Youth from Everywhere, Canada writes: If God had wanted women to hold authoritative positions in the Church he would have taken care of it when he wrote the Bible. The role of women set forth in the Bible is clear. They're here to serve men and should get on with that work. Once they prove they can handle that job perhaps other work could be found for them.
  78. The Religious Left from Canada writes:
    This is why I don't go to church. The Church constantly forgets that it is an organization of men, not of God. Instead of leading people to God, they seem obsesed with becoming minor gods themselves and setting themselves up as intermediaries or mouthpieces of God. The arrogance of those who claim to know the mind of God is outstanding.

    Does anyone really think Jesus gives a flying frack about the gender of church bureaucrats?
  79. c rob from Canada writes: The Religious Left from Canada

    Amen.
  80. jan bakker from Canada writes: Mr. Justice from Canada writes: jan: You evade the question about the end times . . . by claiming that someone needs 'advanced knowledge' ? YIKES: Look up what the Christian version of the Gnostics believed . . . you've adopted their approach.
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    You have barred your lack of biblical knowledge: there is no 'christian' version of the gnostic gospels . They are phony!
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The term gnostic gospels refers to gnostic collections of writings about the teachings of Jesus, written around the 2nd century AD.[1] These gospels are not accepted by most mainstream Christians as part of the standard Biblical canon.

    As to end times, you have answered your own question. End times have been going on since creation the beginning,and two thousand years since Christ was on earth. End times are like a long dark tunnel, we now can see the light at the end.
  81. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Before religion becomes religion, there exists observation of universal spiritual truths. For a while this is all great as people discuss freely and share in the common ideals that arise from seeking and observing these truths.

    Eventually of course the memory of those who brought those ideas forth becomes aggrandized, and so eventually traditions arise based on the actions of these people.

    At some point there is debate over these traditions, and someone feels the need to correct others, or 'unify tradition' and thus dogma is born.

    Over time however, even the reasons for this dogma become unclear and superstition begins to encroach, the final mockery of what originated as observations of real universal principles.

    All the while of course, people backstab and mislead others to solidify their position, all the while using the ends to justify the means, spitting in the face of the very ideals that brought them into existence in the first place.
  82. al goguen from Victoria, Canada writes: How long do we have to wait to see the Anglicans, the Catholics and all the other organized religion close up shops. Very few people go to church andy more. They don't believe that we have to go to church to be a good person, as matter of fact, maybe we are better human beings if we stay away. The whole religion bit was started by a group of men, mostly Jews, who started thinking of a way to control others, including their wives. Then it went on and might be ok in the dark ages, but today we don`t need to be control by people who most of the time are less intelligent, don`t have a clue about love, caring and respecting others. So only a few remain and they elect themselves priests, ministers, bishops and pope. I often wonder why they only have only one pope - My oldest sister said it best regarding organized religion. She was going to church every Sunday, always shopping for new clothes to look good or better than her friends and her friends did exactly the same thing. So I would ask her: 'Why do you go to church every Sunday' --'Well, it I don't go to church, it seems that it's not Sunday!'...I am afraid most church goers today have the same reason. Same reasoning as going to work on Monday. ' It seems to me if I don`t go to work, it's not Monday.....' and so on...
  83. RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: Religious Left: who is The Church??
  84. The Religious Left from Canada writes:
    RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: Religious Left: who is The Church??

    Not sure exactly what you mean. My church was Lutheran, but I have visited many other churches and I have found the same thing everywhere. Modern day Pharisees.
  85. RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: you used the term ''The Church'... does that mean United or Metropolitan Community or what??
  86. D N M from Ontario, Canada writes:

    Troubled Youth from Everywhere, Canada writes:

    'If God had wanted women to hold authoritative positions in the Church he would have taken care of it when he wrote the Bible.'

    Oh boy. You are a troubled youth indeed. 'god' did not write the bible sweetie, men did. It did not come 'by fascimile down from the sky' as they say.

    ...and 'They're here to serve men and should get on with that work. Once they prove they can handle that job perhaps other work could be found for them. '

    ROFL. That kind of crap lost it's meaning long ago honey. I'd like to see you try that with any of today's self-respecting, strong women and watch Her smack you upside the head little boy. Wow. This must be the worst comment I have EVER read on this board.

    Phil King, c rob and The Religious Left: Well said. Your comments are excellent.
  87. The Religious Left from Canada writes:
    RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: you used the term ''The Church'... does that mean United or Metropolitan Community or what??

    It means the Christian church as a whole. All of the above. It's a sweeping generalization based on what I know from visits, professed doctrine, and talking to other Christians.
  88. Duncan Cunningham from Iqaluit, Canada writes: Quotes from the Bible are religion-serving and spiritualy irrelevant when it comes to whether women (or homosexuals) should be allowed authority or even recognition in the church. The Bible is a book of nice stories (although some very violent and hateful ones) written centuries after the presupposed facts and a book preached to primarily illiterate followers too scared and ignorant to dissent or think for themselves. Religion is all about man's desire to control others. It's good that many religions provide a source of faith and solace to people free to participate and believe or not, but no religion has the ability or right to speak for god, whatever he or she may be to each individual. All of these 'great' religions that refer to the Bible are being myopic. There was human life and spirituality long before the Bible. If I'm wrong in my belief that 'god' is in all humans and not a divine entity, and that it is in all of us to differentiate between good and evil i.e. put our faith in humankind as opposed to this god or that one, then I hope she is a woman.
  89. Mr. Justice from Canada writes: jan: Your answer re 'end times' is clever, but it's at war with your earlier statement; but I don't expect you to understand that. Oh, well.

    Too bad you refuse to answer my other question re: the 'true' Christians.

    And the Gnostic Christians were 'just as Christian' as the others. No 'genuine' [sic] version of the traditional four gospels were in existence then.

    The Catholic version of Jerome having a 'sit-down meetin' ' with the Holy Spirit is a hoot, but that's what they believe, and it wasn't until the early 5th century that his NEW Latin Version of the Bible came out. What did people rely on UNTIL then ? Oh, let's not think about that one . . . .

    The Anglicans can have a meetin' of their, complete with invocation (invitin' th' Holy Spirit to show up . . . as if he needed an invite!), and are just as entitled as the others to pretend that what they do is 'God's Will' . . . correction: each SIDE is just as entitled as the other to pretend that IT is doing 'God's Will'. Fair is fair.
  90. Kevin McDougald from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Judging by the strife that goes on, it's no wonder I've felt more at peace with myself than usual since putting my defection (to agnosticism) in writing a couple of months ago and sending it to both the local Archbishop and the church where I was baptized.
  91. Dave Morgan from Portree, United Kingdom writes: There is no proof that Jesus lived at all. None of the four Testaments were written by anyone who ever met him, or were even alive when Jesus was supposedly alive. But having said that, it's probable that he existed, since Jewish Messiah's were a dime a dozen at the time. So why not one called Jesus?

    Christianity really is the Church of Rome. It was the creation of Constantine, who wanted a purpose-built slave-religion to help pacify his empire. A religion that kept people quiet and in their place, promising that all rewards would come in the afterlife. The perfect religion for a slave-owning imperial state.

    But Constantine was a clever bloke. I fancy that he wouldn't be at all surprised to see how his imperial religion has fractured again and again and again, as the obsessed followers pore over obscure texts, trying to prove that you really MUST open an egg from the top rather than the bottom.

    Those of us who see organized religions as blatantly obvious confidence tricks shake our heads in wonder.

    Women Bishops! My goodness! How awful. Poor jan will be expecting the Evil One to show up any day now.

    ... hang on a second. Does Bush have pointed ears??? I think I feel a revelation coming on. Quick! Maybe I still have time to start worshiping Thor, or Batman, or some other influential super power!
  92. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: That the universe exists and has brought forth living consciousness should in its own regard amaze us enough to preclude such ridiculously narrow minded arguments about the nature of god.

    Any contradictions which exist between religions, exist because of the folly of the people interpreting them.

    There is one universe and one obvious set of universal principles that nearly all people can agree on when they are boiled down to their essence. That this is true should speak volumes to people.

    Anything else is a discussion of CULTURE not spiritual truth.
  93. c rob from Canada writes: Dave Morgan from Portree, United Kingdom

    If I were you, I'd go with Thor. He has a big hammer.
  94. Neil FitzGerald from Toronto, writes: Argh....so frustrating

    Countless hours and editorial commentary is wasted bickering over interpretation on Jesus' actions or the relevance of his perceived actions. In the larger picture, I think the message of acceptance is over-riding here and there is little reason to believe in my mind that Jesus or his enlightened followers would support the codification of discrimination against any group of people - be they women, homosexual men or purple people. As such, I believe the Catholic church, of which I am a member, needs to recognize the mistakes of the past, modernize and follow suit here. Women should not be discriminated against here or anywhere in the church.
  95. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: c rob from Canada writes: Dave Morgan from Portree, United Kingdom

    If I were you, I'd go with Thor. He has a big hammer.

    =======================

    Careful, the regional representative of the church of the spaghetti monster might hear you!

    He's like a mormon that guy! LOL
  96. jan bakker from Canada writes: RIGHT IS CORRECT from Canada writes: Religious Left: who is The Church??
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    Easy, the church consists of all who acknowledge that Jesus is the son of God, that he died for our sins,and obey him.

    As Jesus said in John 14: 6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO ONE comes to the Father, but by me.
  97. Phil King from Ottawa, Canada writes: Neil FitzGerald from Toronto: I agree. The sooner the church aligns its culture with a modern interpretation of the ideals inherent in its teachings, the better off we'll all be.