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Dion ramps up greenhouse gas attacks

CAROLINE ALPHONSO

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 3:45 PM EST 09/07/08

Conservative government policies “cumbersome,” Liberal Leader says ...Read the full article

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  1. The Globe and Mail censors free speech from Canada writes: Meanwhile, the LPC can't even run the ads that they've made to sell their tax and spend plan.

    http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=641307
  2. JM Work from Canada writes: Go GREEN SHAFT Dion.
  3. Larfing Outloud from Virgin Islands (British) writes: It's in your hands Dion. Call an election on this.
  4. Shawn Bull from Canada writes: I have been complaining that Dion has not come forward with any plans or policies. Now with this Green shift he has presented a policy that should make people stop and listen.

    I'm not sure if it's good or not. I tend to not trust a Liberal when they say no increase in taxes however it would not be fair of me to comment without knowing all the details.
  5. Louis Riel from Canada writes: Gas is going up, heating oil is going up, diesel fuel is going up, natural gas is going up, and some idiots are going to vote for Dion and his carbon tax to steal from the middle class and redistribute to the poor and then call it revenue neutral? Give me a break.
  6. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    Liberal Leader Stephane Dion attacked the Conservative government's climate change policies Wednesday, calling them “cumbersome, vague and full of loopholes.”

    After having read the plan and then gone over it several times, That is exactly what the Green Shift Plan is:

    No short term targets.
    No Intermediate term targets.
    A vague one line reference to a long term target.
    No reduction mechanisms.
    No monitoring mechanisms.
    Very little money to green technologies.
    No mention of how to handle overlap with existing provincial programs.
    The plan calls for BOTH a carbon tax AND a cap and trade system.

    And it is all mixed up with a massive ideological social engineering experiment.

    It could not be more cumbersome, vague and full of loopholes.
  7. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    Dion can't even manage his own finances. Yet he wants to rewrite the Canadian tax system. LOL
  8. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: And still, in the face of ever-increasing GHG concentrations, global average temperatures have failed to rise, much less rise at the IPCC predicted rates.

    The AGW paradigm is losing its legs with every new temperature measure.
  9. Greg Out West from Canada writes: Louis Riel from Canada writes: Gas is going up, heating oil is going up, diesel fuel is going up, natural gas is going up, and some idiots are going to vote for Dion and his carbon tax to steal from the middle class and redistribute to the poor and then call it revenue neutral? Give me a break.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Sorry Louis, being middle class you are not entitled to a break under the liberal plan. So please just sit back, pay your added expenses on everything you buy and enjoy the ride. Besides Dion's plan is going to save the world. No, child care. Or is it poverty ? Gee it's all so confusing.
  10. Vern McPherson from writes:
    Louis Riel from Canada writes: Gas is going up, heating oil is going up, diesel fuel is going up, natural gas is going up, and some idiots are going to vote for Dion and his carbon tax to steal from the middle class and redistribute to the poor and then call it revenue neutral? Give me a break.
    Posted 09/07/08 at 3:46 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    =================================

    How do seniors on fixed incomes, disabled and low income earners pay for those hikes you mentioned right now ? ?

    Won't the middle class get a personal tax cut to cover the 2 cents a litre ?

    I thought conservatives wanted low wages in order to control costs ???

    Well if low income workers can't buy food or pay their fuel bills because of these increases what should they do ??
  11. Jim Q from Halifax, Canada writes: The Globe and Mail censors free speech from Canada writes: Meanwhile, the LPC can't even run the ads that they've made to sell their tax and spend plan.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Conservatives all ill-advised to take this tack against the Liberals. The Green Shift balances carbon pricing with tax cuts. The Conservative plans (from what we've seen) add to the cost of living for ordinary Canadians and....that's it. The money from their carbon tax takes over from GST and corporate cuts, which preponderantly help high earning Canadians while leaving middle and low income families out to dry, and seniors even worse.

    If we're all done with the cartoon goofiness of the Harper political plan, are there any conservatives with any actual ideas? I mean besides more stealth taxes and bureaucratic red-tape regulations? I'd love to see them.
  12. Shawn Bull from Canada writes: I don't think... therefore I vote conservative! (common sense is back) from Canada writes: .

    Wow - the f_cking con twits are out in full farce today!
    ----------------------
    A little tip for you. If you want your adversaries to read past the first line of your post (because that is why you post to share your ideas with those that oppose them) then I think the opening line should proably not read how yours does. I can't tell you what the rest of your post says because I choose not to read past this profane opening statement.
  13. Louis Riel from Canada writes: Dearest I don't think... (obviously), I make far and above minimum wage, thank you very much, and sorry your colourful language just doesn't do it for me, and no, I don't need some English language lacky to tax me more and more, call it revenue neutral (yeah right) and then end up paying for poverty (oops honey, I need to go the food bank for some baby formula) and day care (we need two jobs for our cottage and two minivans) and whatever other social engineering (nanny state) projects that your Liberal lovers want to hoist on all of us who actually work for a living and understand that HARD WORK and NOT HAVING CHILDREN UNLESS WE CAN AFFORD THEM actually makes sense.
  14. JM Work from Canada writes: Good job LIEberals!
  15. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    Two weeks ago the G&M published a story stating taht we might see the entire arctic thaw into the sea this summer.

    Meanwhile as of July 5th there are 510,000 more square km of ice in the arctic than there were last year at this time. That is the equivalent of a landmass the size of the province of manitoba!

    http://www.icecap.us/
  16. Kirk . from Ajax, Canada writes: The gross stupidity of Canadian politicians takes my breath away. I live in Ontario. All John Tory had to do to get elected was go on vacation. Just don't open your stupid mouth and everything would be roses. But instead he goes about funding religious schools...FLUSH. If an election was called before Dion opened his mouth , first the income trust reversal would come up, then the Harper = Bush lapdog would surface again and again, then the promise of open government becomes tha fact of closed government, then the MP from BC defecting, then...I can go on and on. All Dion had to was force an election and go on vacation for six months. He may get a minority of the Conservatives would get a minority, who cares either way. Instead he chose the big political FLUSH. Dummy!
  17. D. MacKay from Atlantic, Canada writes:

    Does anyone else hear the giggling?

    Harper , Iggy and Rae all holding their sides.

    Stephanie Dion - his own little Conservative attack ad wrapped in his green cape.

    The best part? It doesn't cost the Conservatives a dime.

    OH NO , LOOKOUT! A RUNAWAY TAX GRAB !

    Looks like a job for the Green Avenger and Kyoto

    Up , up and away , my faithful taxbase.
  18. Liberal Boy from Canada writes: Mr. Dion doesn't like what he started with carbon tax, but now he would look to stupid to quit and i don't think i'll be voting Liberal again.
  19. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: I don't think... writes: 'Maybe if you stopped sticking the thermometer up your a$$ and actually thought for yourself, for once, there GlynnMhor you might sould like less of a retard.'

    That may be where you try to get your global average temperatures, but I get mine from the Hadley Centre:

    http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.pdf

    And I'm the sort who does think, rather than simply parrotting pronouncements from the IPCC, Suzuki, Gore, et al.

    I invite you to try thinking about how temperatures and GHGs vary independently, often at wildly different rates, over the last century and more. The implication is that they are quite independent from one another, and that the 1970-2000 warming was a coincidence that has been used to claim GHGs to have been responsible.
  20. Louis Riel from Canada writes: Ah Dearest I don't think...(obviously) your intelligent conversation is quite intriguing, you must be a liberal voter. So sad that you flunked elementary school.
  21. The Globe and Mail censors free speech from Canada writes: To I don't think... who writes: 'Maybe if you stopped sticking the thermometer up your a$$ and actually thought for yourself, for once, there GlynnMhor you might sould like less of a retard.

    You're a running joke. '

    Now now.... This is your idea of debate?
  22. Hugo Hall from Calgary, Canada writes: Again, I must stress that the so-called 'Green Shift' is not a greenhouse gas emission reduction program at all. It is a financial tool to redistribute wealth from oil-producing provinces to Ontario and Quebec, and it is not revenue neutral since much of the money collected through new taxes will go towards new social program spending. Furthermore, with no hard targets it is just as ineffective as the Conservative plans Mr. Dion derides.

    A better example to follow would be BC's recently enacted Carbon Tax. However, with energy costs going through the roof as it is, I would question the need to legislate any new taxes since the open market seems to be making oil and gas prohibitively expensive as it is.
  23. Big Wayne Kerr from Kumbaya, Canada writes: Uncle Fester 'Dion can't even manage his own finances. Yet he wants to rewrite the Canadian tax system. LOL '

    He can't even manage his own citizenships!

    Soon to be gone.

    Not worthy of notice, 2/3 of the LPC members are ignoring him and keeping their powder dry. It's really about the election after this one now.
    It's a done deal. Loosa palooza Diona a' Franca.
  24. Bill G from Calgary, Canada writes: Dion is getting funnier by the moment. I don't think the general population is or will take this guy seriously. If there ever was a plan without substance it was his Kyoto plan followed by his shaft the west plan.
  25. Hugh Andrew from Ottawa, Canada writes: The Liberal Party co ntinues to be degraded by its large contingent of left leaning dreamers who should more properly be in the NDP. It needs to regain the reality based approach to policy development and governance.
  26. The Globe and Mail censors free speech from Canada writes:
    Of the $15.4B in new taxes, only $1B of Dion's plan is allocated to the promotion of green technologies, and $4.5B goes to special interests and social welfare plans.

    http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/business/story.html?id=d2a980e0-309d-491a-9515-2c793737bad9&p=1

    How is this supposed to be revenue neutral again and not taxing and spending?
  27. Buddy Canada from Toronto, Canada writes: Wow the Alberta Separatists must be licking their chops on this one. NEP II won't fly out there. This sounds like an NDP plan to take from the middle class and give to the poor.
  28. Compos Mentis from Toronto, Canada writes: Here's a funny one. A friend of mine who is on the Toronto Police Force, drove around a liberal riding a few nights ago when it was quiet, doing a personal survey on ten streets where even the smallest house is over 3000 square feet. In total he drove by about 250 homes and counted 609 cars parked in driveways, he couldn't count those in the garages but assuming at least 1 it totalled 859 cars, saw that 227 homes had at least three or more exterior lights illuminating the outside of the house. Of the cars he saw in driveways more than 50% were SUV's or large size vans. Almost 65% of the houses had large well manicured lawns that were professionally maintained, meaning that someone had to drive their lawnmowers and other equipment to the house to do the lawn maintenance. The 2 questions he asked was, do you think these people are going to care about an increase in taxes to pay for the liberal green shaft program and do you think this will force them to alter their lifestyle? My answer in a word NO!
  29. p lailey from vancouver, Canada writes: The Globe and Mail censors free speech from Canada writes:
    'Of the $15.4B in new taxes, only $1B of Dion's plan is allocated to the promotion of green technologies, and $4.5B goes to special interests and social welfare plans.'

    The plan has very little to do with the environment and more to do with income distribution. It is an alternative to the plan that would have seen the 2% GST cuts rolled back and the increased taxes used to fund social programs. No wonder Canadians are tuning out the Green Shift (trademark).
  30. Skeptical Realist from Canada writes: Compos Mentis - Thanks for that. Needed a chuckle today. Your friend should go by the same houses this winter in the early morning to count how many of those cars and SUVs are 'warming up' in the driveways.
  31. Ace Frehley from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'Alberta premier Ed Stelmach has attacked the Liberal plan, warning that the province would take a major hit under Dion's green shift.'

    Yeah, I can see why he's fuming (in as much as Ed Stelmach is capable of that kind of thing). Imagine, instead of having 3 times as much money per capita as any other province, Alberta might have to scrape by with, I dunno, only 2.5 times as much. Nice to see the generous Alberta spirit shining through again.

    Never in history has a people with so much managed to betch and whine so much about having it.
  32. Harvey Mushman from cambridge, Canada writes: “cumbersome, vague and full of loopholes.”...sounds just like the Green Shift. ...'pretends to care about the environment but doesn't follow with any actions.' ...and that sounds like a very accurate description of the Liberals and Kyoto with Dion at the helm of the MOE. 'We just didn't get it done Stephane!' No matter...2/3 of Canadians are not even listening to what the nutty professor has to say and of the 1/3 who are...2/3 of them disagree with his Green Shaft.
  33. Greg Out West from Canada writes: Ace Frehley from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'Alberta premier Ed Stelmach has attacked the Liberal plan, warning that the province would take a major hit under Dion's green shift.'

    Yeah, I can see why he's fuming (in as much as Ed Stelmach is capable of that kind of thing). Imagine, instead of having 3 times as much money per capita as any other province, Alberta might have to scrape by with, I dunno, only 2.5 times as much. Nice to see the generous Alberta spirit shining through again.
    -----------------------------------------------
    Ace, I think your comment is a little unfair as all Canadians benefit through transfer payments. If Alberta's economy suffers, it will affect the entire country.
  34. Always Right from Canada writes:

    And the Dion descent into political oblivion accelerates.
  35. Jen Dobson from Canada writes: Even conservative economists LIKE Dion's plan. It does exactly what economists have been arguing for for years - increases consumption taxes but REDUCES income taxes.

    I don't understand where some people are coming from on this. They are just being partisan and scared. The majority of people would not see any significant increase in their costs, and low-income families would actually save money with the plan. Only those who are very wealthy and who flaunt that wealth by leaving a large carbon footprint would pay more, and those are people who can afford to. And if they don't want to, they can make slight adjustments anyways.

    A plan like this is coming soon whether you like or not. Conservatives would be wise to embrace this or a similar plan else they will be run out of office.
  36. Ace Frehley from Vancouver, Canada writes: Greg Out West from Canada writes:

    Ace, I think your comment is a little unfair as all Canadians benefit through transfer payments. If Alberta's economy suffers, it will affect the entire country.
    ______________________________________________

    I'd agree with you if that was the tenor of what we hear from Albertans so much of the time (and I'm not just talking about the overblown rhetoric so often seen in these forums).

    We generally don't hear 'this will hurt Canada because it will hurt us'. What we hear is 'you are trying to transfer wealth from AB to ON/QC'. There is no hint of concern for the country, just a cry of the unfairness TO ALBERTA of it all.

    It just strikes me that for decades Albertans, like most Canadians, believed in progressive taxation -- the amount you pay depends on your ability to pay it. That attitude seems to have evaporated once they reached the top of the heap.

    Funny, that.
  37. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Ace Frehley from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'Imagine, instead of having 3 times as much money per capita as any other province, Alberta might have to scrape by with, I dunno, only 2.5 times as much. Nice to see the generous Alberta spirit shining through again.

    Never in history has a people with so much managed to betch and whine so much about having it.'

    =========================================

    It's folks like you, Ace Freeloader, who want something for nothing, that we have issues with. You want to share in the AB economy? Come on over, get a job, and dig in. Plenty of good jobs going begging here.
  38. Always Right from Canada writes:

    Jen Dobson writes : Even conservative economists LIKE Dion's plan.

    Yeah???? Like who???
  39. Stephen Morris from writes: The Globe runs this, but not the fact that Alberta unveiled a $4Bil dollar environmental plan yesterday, the biggest carbon recapture system in the world. Their insults to the west and conservatives are as divisive as Dion's smears and taxes. No respect.
  40. Ace Frehley from Vancouver, Canada writes: Sweeney Todd:

    It's folks like you, Ace Freeloader, who want something for nothing, that we have issues with. You want to share in the AB economy? Come on over, get a job, and dig in. Plenty of good jobs going begging here.

    ________________________________

    Ad hominem attacks. Yawn.

    Thanks for the invitation, hun, but a) I have a good job that I enjoy; b) your proposal would involve me having to live in Alberta.

    No thanks.
  41. Jim Q from Halifax, Canada writes: In the end, the debate really boils down to Dion's central premise:

    'I believe in the intelligence of Canadians, and their desire to be leaders in a better world.'

    He genuinely believes that people will think this through and, eventually, opt for the course of action that's right for the world, not just themselves and their manicured lawns and SUVs.
    He genuinely believes that people will take a hard look at what each party offers as a solution to what Canadians have identified as their most pressing concern.
    He genuinely believes that most people, given the opportunity, will not let their fellow countrymen shiver in the cold dark of winter when even conventional carbon costs have put heating and energy out of reach for so many seniors and full-time workers.
    He genuinely believes in Canadians.

    Sad as it is, I think the conservative posters who crooned about the fall of Dion may be right. But only about his demise.

    It was never the plan that was the problem. It's the premise.
  42. Catherine Wilkie from Canada writes: Families are 'railing' against the ever-increasing grocery tab and gas to fill the family vehicle.
    And now the softening of the housing market.
  43. Don Portz from Trochu AB, Canada writes: From the above posts there doesnt seem to be a whole lot of support for Dions Green Shift Plan. While the Conservative plan is certainly fuzzy at this time, they have at least agreed to a specific target in the future. Dions plan has very clearly stated NO specific target would be set. Therefore I would like to see what the Conservatives will actually do; not just talk about it. Remember that Dion signed on to Kyoto but then did nothing. Will he be any better this time?? It looks more and more as a Tax grab rather than an enviromental fix. Or is it anything to just get back in power??
  44. Grandma Fed up from Canada writes: Jen Dobson....even Conservative economists like Dion's plan? .....
    Who, please....names, titles, credentials, party affiliation proof? Just like 'scientists' state 'extremely likely' C02 causes global warming...oooops now climate change. Love the policeman's survey...that's what I'm concerned about. Any social engineering always starts with 'you change' 'you pay' and I'll keep on living just the way I have only with 'more of'. Dion better stick to Ontario...we just don't understand him (bilingulism would help) in the west...and to think, we'll have to have a 50 million $ election to get rid of him. Liberals can't even handle their own problems internally, the taxpaying public has to help them out.
  45. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Ace Frehley from Vancouver - 'Thanks for the invitation, hun, but a) I have a good job that I enjoy; b) your proposal would involve me having to live in Alberta.'

    No thanks.'

    So, you have a great job, wouldn't live here, and don't like us, but you're somehow imagining that we're greedy villains if we don't send you a cheque? Flush out your headgear, Ace.

    Your proposal would involve me sending you some of my hard-earned money, for no particular reason.

    No thanks.
  46. true conservative from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd - people have been taking the GTA's hard earned money for decades. Why should Alberta be different? Where my beef lies is that Albertans complain that money is being taken out of their province, but they dare not say boo about equalization, but that would mean the GTA might get to keep some of its own money.
  47. Ace Frehley from Vancouver, Canada writes: Don Portz from Trochu AB, Canada writes: While the Conservative plan is certainly fuzzy at this time, they have at least agreed to a specific target in the future.
    ...
    Remember that Dion signed on to Kyoto but then did nothing.
    __________________________

    Both points are very true, but all it tells me is that Harper is sneakier than Dion (no surprise there). Dion's mistake was in agreeing to a target whose deadline was close enough in time that he might still be around to suffer the political consequences of failure.

    Harper, like the Libs before him, agreed to a target he had no real intention of following through on. Only the deadline being 42 years in the future, I have a hunch that Harper won't be running for office when it becomes clear that we won't be meeting his 'target'.
  48. bill johnson from Quebec, Canada writes: To recapitulate money flows under Dion's plan:
    Alta----->Toronto
    Sask------->Toronto
    NFLD----> Montreal
    NS--------->Montreal
    Middle Class----------->Immigrant Groups
  49. Al Bore from OTTAWA, Canada writes:

    Why is Dion the only Liberal shouting about the Carbon tax plan??

    Even his own fellow Liberal MP's think it's a mistake.

    Canadian's aren't buying the bag of tricks.
  50. true conservative from Canada writes: bill johnson - as opposed to the current system:

    Toronto ------>Sask
    Toronto ------>NFLD
    Toronto ------>NS
    Toronto ------>Quebec
  51. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    Ever noticed that the liberal apologists on this thread are the same people that expect that Albertans should apologize for their high standard of living?

    However, at the same thime they would never expect a high paid, uneducated worker on an auto assembly line to apologize for their standard of living.

    This is regional resentment.
  52. true conservative from Canada writes: bill johnson - oh and don't forget

    Immigrant workers -----> redneck culture of entitlement
  53. Skeptical Realist from Canada writes: Come on Sweeney, you must accept that the west must help finance the socialist utopia of Ontario. Dion may as well build the Great Wall of Liberalism around the province. If the libs win, money will be funneled from regions that did not support them to the pay for the social needs of the regions that did.
  54. Blue Magic ...... from Mississauga,, Canada writes: To funny, read this guys plan and read the conservatives. The conservatives actualy have targets and maps them out.

    Dion says if he put yearly targets that no one will believe him. Who buys this crap.

    Meanwhile the liberals adult debate has gone from calling people from the west loser to making jokes about killing Harper and his wife.

    And libbies before you say that that joke about killing Harper and his wife is not bad.

    Here is the prince of Darkness Warren Kinsella, a liberal(who the fed libs need back).

    http://www.warrenkinsella.com/index.php?entry=entry080709-135511

    Liberals are a joke.
  55. Vern McPherson from writes:
    Blue Magic ...... from Mississauga,, Canada writes: To funny, read this guys plan and read the conservatives. The conservatives actualy have targets and maps them out.

    =============================

    Well, ... lets see em ??

    What are they ? Where ???
  56. Blue Magic ...... from Mississauga,, Canada writes: Oh, and plus the conservatives also believe in cleaing up lakes taking care of smog and conservation.

    But that's right Conservatives do nothing for the enviroment plzzzzzzzz

    http://www.ec.gc.ca/default.asp?lang=En&n=714D9AAE-1
  57. rick from river city from Canada writes: Things Dion does know:
    1. The thing about 'bait and switch' is that you have to push for an early distraction and false urgency amongst observers and players, especially when your premiere con could be your last.
    2. The hardest things to defend are those that you know now to be in error but which you have touted so loudly and broadly that dignified retreat, perhaps even compromise, is now impossible.
    3. Politics isn't academia. You can't just admit to a false premise and move on unscathed because you errored. This is real life - not a paper chase.
  58. Greg Out West from Canada writes: This is all a moot point. Dion will never be PM, even the LPC knows that. The next election will just do what Dion should do on his own and that is step aside and let someone else lead the party. He may be bright and the nicest guy in the world but at less than 10 percent of canadians seeing him as PM he's just not getting the job done or his message out. As a result this plan will never see the light of day.
  59. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: true conservative from Canada writes: 'Sweeney Todd - people have been taking the GTA's hard earned money for decades. Why should Alberta be different? Where my beef lies is that Albertans complain that money is being taken out of their province, but they dare not say boo about equalization, but that would mean the GTA might get to keep some of its own money.'

    =======================================

    I was born and spent most of my life in southern ON. I worked hard, and was rewarded by being taxed to death - for everybody else's benefit - since I started to work in the early '70s. I've had my shoulder to the wheel for almost 35 years, funding the socialist dream, as cherished by Ace Freeloader and others. I figure I'm paid-up, in advance, to about the year 2075. I'd shed no tears if equalization ceased tomorrow.
  60. Blue Magic ...... from Mississauga,, Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes:

    Well, ... lets see em ??

    What are they ? Where ???
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.ec.gc.ca/default.asp?lang=En&n=714D9AAE-1&news=B2B42466-B768-424C-9A5B-6D59C2AE1C36

    http://www.ec.gc.ca/doc/virage-corner/2008-03/brochure_eng.html

    More if you want buddy but there is this website called Enviroment Canada look it up.

    http://www.ec.gc.ca/default.asp?lang=En&n=FD9B0E51-1
  61. rick from river city from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes:
    I was born and spent most of my life in southern ON. I worked hard, and was rewarded by being taxed to death - for everybody else's benefit - since I started to work in the early '70s. I've had my shoulder to the wheel for almost 35 years, funding the socialist dream, as cherished by Ace Freeloader and others. I figure I'm paid-up, in advance, to about the year 2075. I'd shed no tears if equalization ceased tomorrow.

    ditto, well stated STfromO
  62. Blue Magic ...... from Mississauga,, Canada writes: Here is some PDF's for you vern. I know you just read the newspapers for your facts but if you actualy go to the government website there is alot there.

    http://www.ec.gc.ca/default.asp?lang=En&n=75038EBC-1
  63. true conservative from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd - that's the point though. Even an out-and-out carbon tax doesn't begin to compare to the theft that is equalization. Yet, Albertans and GTA'ers are pushed to fight one another on who is paying more, instead of uniting and demanding an end to the discriminatory program (why is a Quebec entitled to subsidized child care but not an Albertan?).

    And, unfortunately, it is not always the liberals. The conservative supporters that pocket the loot are also the loudest. Usually though, the liberals attack Alberta while the 'conservatives' attack Toronto.
  64. not surprised from somewhere, Canada writes: bill johnson from Quebec, Canada writes: To recapitulate money flows under Dion's plan:
    Alta----->Toronto
    Sask------->Toronto
    NFLD----> Montreal
    NS--------->Montreal
    Middle Class----------->Immigrant Groups
    ============================================

    explain the last one.....middle class ------> immigrant groups...
    you something my friend I know alot of newly imigrated Canadians that are apart of the middle class. You should come visit the GTA.
    ridiculous....ohhh and by the way my parents immigrated here in the 70's and we're part of the middle class, so where is my money going....to myself????
  65. Blue Magic ...... from Mississauga,, Canada writes: More for you vern on the conservatives Turning the Corner: Regulatory Framework for Industrial Greenhouse Gas Emissions

    http://www.ec.gc.ca/doc/virage-corner/2008-03/541_eng.htm
  66. true conservative from Canada writes: not surprised - if you are middle class in Toronto (immigrant or not), your money is going to bill johnson. Remember enriched equalization?
  67. Blue Magic ...... from Mississauga,, Canada writes: Now vern go read all of the links I gave you, then go read Dion's 40 odd page book, then come back and say Dion's plan is great so I can laugh at you.

    Dude I am big time into the enviroment I am just not a cult like wacko who believes everything a enviromentilist says.

    But hey you are not into the enviroment you just hate Harper so frankly I could careless about your uniformed opinion.

    What's that say about you that you and your opinion that you don't even no there is a conservative plan?
  68. not surprised from somewhere, Canada writes: very true.... mind you his money is coming to me...so who cares....doesn't cancel each other out????? my money is his and his money is mine...therefore my money is spent on me...because the same amount is taken from both. That is of course if we have the same levels of consumption. Now if Bill wants to consume more, well thats his choice, he'll have to pay more. But if he changes is consumption patterns then he'll pay less, reaping the benifits of lower income taxes too. This scenario would result in a net gain for Bill or I for matter or you True Conservative
  69. Blue Magic ...... from Mississauga,, Canada writes: What's that say about you that you and your opinion that you don't even no there is a conservative plan?

    That should be

    What that say about you and your opinion, that you don't even no the cobnservative plan.

    PS:Information is gold read both plans and don't let a party or a newspaper form your opinion for you.
  70. Ivory orange from Saskatoon, Canada writes: To Uncle Fester: Please do some research – a carbon tax isn’t supposed to set targets, it sets a market price for carbon, thereby creating an incentive to businesses and individuals to reduce their carbon footprint. I would prefer that private companies spend $$ on green technologies, but we need a price mechanism so that these technologies can compete with cheap coal Dion has spoken with Gordon Campbell and has said BCers won’t be double taxed. A cap and trace system also sets a price on carbon and really only focuses on large emitters. Using both systems is not only doable, but has some key advantages Re ICE Cap –Climate scientists have long suspected that warming the oceans around a very cold continent is likely to dramatically increase snowfall. Go do some research! To Greg out West: Only things with high carbon are going to be more expensive, and still not by much. With this plan I can reduce my carbon footprint and come out with MORE money in my pocket. I think it’s a little unfair that the entire planet suffers from Alberta’s economy, let alone beneficial transfer payments to other provinces To Louis Riel: I’m sorry that you’re not willing to share with those who are less fortunate and have more challenges and disadvantages to face –especially when we have the wealth from our natural resources to help them. This is your prerogative and is probably we you won’t ever vote liberal. To GlynnMhor of Skywall: You are so off base on your interpretation of data. I invite you to explore the paleoclimate data that clearly demonstrates CO2’s relationship to climate. I also invite you to find any scientific body of national or international standing that disagrees with the IPCC.
  71. Vern McPherson from writes:
    Blue Magic ...... from Mississauga,, Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes:
    Well, ... lets see em ??
    What are they ? Where ???
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.ec.gc.ca/default.asp?lang=En&n=714D9AAE-1&news=B2B42466-B768-424C-9A5B-6D59C2AE1C36

    =================================

    I've read all that and it's all intensity targets. A lot of fluff to be 100 % honest. Besides the publishin oif regs has been delayed until 09 already. I see nothign there and we could go on all day with he said she said and experts here and experts there. It's all fluff so far.

    AND IT DOES NOTHING TO ADDRESS OUR DEPENDANCE ON OIL AND FOSSIL FUELS. IT DOS NOTHING TO ADDRESS CURRENT HARDSHIP AMONG MILLIONS OF CANADIANS WHO NEED IT. RIGHT NOW. NOR DOES IT ADDRESS THEIR NEEDS IN FUTURE.

    I'll get back after looking at your other links. I'll give you that much attention - and thanks for your reply.
  72. Ivory orange from Saskatoon, Canada writes: To Always Right and Grandma Fed up: These are a few examples of conservative economists that like carbon taxes: Greg Mankiw (President Bush's former chief economic adviser), Nobel Prize-winning conservative economist Gary Becker, and the chief executive of the largest U.S. auto-dealer chain, Mike Jackson. Furthermore, a high-profile conservative makes a strong case for shifting taxation away from income and on to consumption: David Frum, in his excellent book 'Comeback: Conservatism That Can Win Again” Here are also some quotes from some prominent economists: 'Pollution must have a price tag. Currently it is too cheap to pollute, and too expensive not to.' Don Drummond, Chief Economist, TD Bank, March 7, 2007 http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/govrel/news.cfm?story=57676 “[The argument that taxes on oil or carbon emissions would ruin an economy is] fundamentally false. First of all, I don’t think it is going to have that much of an impact on the economy overall. Second of all, if you don’t do it, you can be sure that the economy will go down the drain in the next 30 years.' Paul Volcker, former Chairman, US Federal Reserve, February 6, 2007 http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/06/news/FIN-GEN-Egypt-Volcker-Global-Warming.php “Ideally, politicians would choose the more efficient carbon tax, which implies a relatively stable price that producer can building into their investment plans” Editorial, The Economist, September 9, 2006 http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7884738 “If your objective is to cut greenhouse gas emissions, a carbon tax is definitely one of the most effective ways of doing that.” Doug Porter, Deputy Chief Economist, BMO http://corporateknightsforum.com/index.php/CKtemplates/CKcomments/100/ This is actually a TINY sample of the support for a carbon tax that comes from ALL sides of the political spectrum.
  73. Vern McPherson from writes:

    Blue magic fact is I'ver real all that material before. That is why I can say don't like it. It's all based on ' INTENSITY' and intensity is meaningless.

    Laugh if you want but there you have it ..........
  74. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: true conservative from Canada writes: 'Sweeney Todd - that's the point though. Even an out-and-out carbon tax doesn't begin to compare to the theft that is equalization.'

    ==========================================

    I figure I've been shanked by every party that's ever been in power. I clearly remember being told by Mulroney that the GST would be 'revenue neutral'. Now, when I hear that same old description referring to the various carbon taxes and cap & trade schemes, my internal 'anti-theft' alarm goes off. The lefties wail that the conservatives have NO PLAN! Good. They're not talking about it, which means they're not planning to screw me - at least with something like the Green Shaft, anyway.

    One of the things I like about AB, is that the provincial conservatives here are routinely accused of having 'no plan'. I think it's great. My experience is, that every time a politician comes up with 'a plan', my wallet somehow gets lighter. Enough - no more plans. Everybody get their hand out of my pocket.
  75. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: Ivory orange from Saskatoon, Canada writes:'GlynnMhor: ... explore the paleoclimate data that clearly demonstrates CO2’s relationship to climate.'

    What those data show is that CO2 concentrations rise several centuries after the temperatures rise, which would indicate that rising temperatures cause CO2 to rise, and not the other way round.

    On the other hand we also know that shorter solar sunspot cycles are associated with rising temperatures, and cycle 22 in the midst of the 1970-2000 warming was only 9.7 years. In contrast, cycle 23 is just ending at least 11.7 years in length (longer than any since Queen Victoria was on the throne during the cooling period of 1880-1910) and we're seeing cooling temperatures at present.
  76. Dennis sinneD from Calgary, Canada writes:

    Who pays for Dion's fuel to get to work? Home heating? Hot water? Air travel? Luxury?

    Not Dion...
  77. Dennis sinneD from Calgary, Canada writes:

    'Liberals unapologetic about linking environment, social programs'

    It's a social program, ya nards. How more complicated can the GreenShaft get?
  78. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: reality fromontario from Canada writes: 'Surprisingly Dion is doing something about the issue and not passing the buck to the next generation, not so HARPERcritical like some other policies of our Bribe Minister.'

    ==========================================

    Dear Not-Living-In-Reality from Ontario: No, Dion is TALKING about doing something. He's 'got a plan'. See my post of 6:22 above, for my real-world experience with politicians and their 'plans'.
  79. Blue Magic ...... from Mississauga,, Canada writes: Blue magic fact is I'ver real all that material before. That is why I can say don't like it. It's all based on ' INTENSITY'
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Ha,ha, thanks for the far left talking points buddy, thanks for letting me no you are just spewing far left talking points. And that you don't give a flying turkey about the enviroment it's all Harpers is evil.

    Now hate harper's Targets all you want, But what are dion's(in mega tons of GHD) Per year going to be lowered in his plan... That's what I thought

    Now don't adress me you are usless dude I don't deal in Chicken and egg arguments.

    PS: Why I am so glib is that I just told a friend sitting next to me that you would say ' INTENSITY' for your argument. You are so predictable dude. Go drink some more of that kool-aid. Also thank-you for being predictable.
  80. bill johnson from Quebec, Canada writes: not surprised from somewhere, Canada writes: bill johnson from Quebec, Canada writes: To recapitulate money flows under Dion's plan:
    Alta----->Toronto
    Sask------->Toronto
    NFLD----> Montreal
    NS--------->Montreal
    Middle Class----------->Immigrant Groups
    ============================================

    explain the last one.....middle class ------> immigrant groups...
    you something my friend I know alot of newly imigrated Canadians that are apart of the middle class. You should come visit the GTA.
    ridiculous....ohhh and by the way my parents immigrated here in the 70's and we're part of the middle class, so where is my money going....to myself????
    __________________________________________________
    No, not unless you are a member of the the Sri Lankan Cricket Club, in which case you're all set. I went to grad school at UofT many years ago. Would care not to live in downtown To today. Miller has turned it into an expensive ghetto. Nice glass condos downtown, tough. I think Toronto's contribution to GDP is overstated. Cut out the 905 zone and I suspect TO's contibution would be halved. Back to the topic at hand: we need to admit that the Libbies have no intention of reducing GHGs or preserving species; if they cared, they would have implemented meaningful reforms over the 75 or so years they governed during the last century.
  81. Bill Harrison from Canada writes: Sure glad the G&M has assigned a reporter to cover every utterance of Mr. Dion as he travels the country. Wouldn't want to miss one word, and the G&M will not let us or him down!
  82. Bill G from Calgary, Canada writes: t think Dion should put hard caps on all cars and trucks manufactured in Ontario and Quebec. Starting in 2009 all vehicles must get 60 MPG city with zero emissions. We will charge the manufacturers $10/tonne until they can produce these vehicles and we will use the money to pay down the national debt. What do you mean you can't produce vehicles like this next year. What? You have to re-tool the plants and the technology doesn't exist? Too bad. We'll tax you until you can. What? You'll go out of business? Too bad. We're saving the planet don't ya know. What? Ontario will become a have not province and lose political power? too bad. Don't be so greedy. What? This will split the country because you're picking on us and no one else? Too bad. We know we won't get votes there, we trying shore up the party elsewhere. Dion and the Liberals, prostitutes for the cause.
  83. James Cyr from Balmertown Ontario, Canada writes: The Liberal 'green shift' is a 'green' money shift-wealth transfer scheme that has nothing to do with greenhouse gases. Carbon sequestering is the correct way to go.
  84. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: mike sty - from Canada: You DID see the story that this string is referencing, right? WTF are you talking about?
  85. John Kruk from Canada writes: I will grit my teeth and vote Liberal in the next election if Harper does not debate Dion on this issue and/or come out with a plan that is superior. I believe Harper still has time to do this but he must do it reasonably soon or it will be clear he doesn't have a better plan. That or he is clueless about the issue. Either way I will abandon the party if that really is Harpers game. We'll get a better leader for the cons and come back next time.
  86. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: John Kruk from Canada writes: I will grit my teeth and vote Liberal in the next election if Harper does not debate Dion on this issue and/or come out with a plan that is superior. I believe Harper still has time to do this but he must do it reasonably soon or it will be clear he doesn't have a better plan. That or he is clueless about the issue. Either way I will abandon the party if that really is Harpers game. We'll get a better leader for the cons and come back next time.

    ========================================

    Yo - JOHN, dude... a 'plan'?C'mon - there won't be any less pollution, or reduced CO2 emissions. The ONLY thing that will change with Dion's 'plan', is that you - and I - will be poorer. That's it.

    OK, maybe SOME things will change. QC could get a provincial tax cut of some sort. Or cheaper day-care. But YOU - and I - will be poorer. And that's it.
  87. Compos Mentis from Toronto, Canada writes: When Mr. Dion took the responsibility as the Minister of the Environment not once did he propose a 'carbon tax' in fact during the most recent leadership process in the LPC he actually campaigned against it. His argument then was that he did not believe it would result in any dramatic reduction in co2 gasses, that would permit Canada to achieve any of it's targets under the Kyoto accord. Now that he's decided it's a good idea after all, will he now admit that the Kyoto targets were never achievable and that he and the Liberal party of Canada mislead the citizens of this country when they signed the Kyoto Accord? Probably not, but I thought I'd ask.
  88. Is Dion from France or from Canada writes: It seems the very non-partisan Globe and Mail, who published a very unflattering article about Prime Minister Stephen Harper when he said that Dion with his Green Shift was trying to 'screw us', has missed an even more unflattering story. One in which a Liberal candidate for St. Catharines, Walt Lastewka, posted on his newsletter an incredibly hateful joke. The joke told is about the assassination of Stephen Harper.
    Here is the link, it is on page 3 of the document.
    http://scliberals.ca/Newsletters/Spring'08.pdf

    There is absolutely no place for hateful literature like that, and I call upon Mr. Dion to remove this person from contention for MP representing St. Catharines. And I ask the Globe and Mail to show at least some degree of non-partisanship by publishing an article addressing this incident.
  89. Rabid Senses from Good gawd, a latte-swilling Westerner, Canada writes:
    Shawn Bull from Canada writes: I don't think... therefore I vote conservative! (common sense is back) from Canada writes: .

    Wow - the f    cking con twits are out in full farce today!
    ----------------------
    A little tip for you. If you want your adversaries to read past the first line of your post (because that is why you post to share your ideas with those that oppose them) then I think the opening line should proably not read how yours does. I can't tell you what the rest of your post says because I choose not to read past this profane opening statement.
    __________________________________________________

    Well said, Shawn,

    Bravo!

    This is starting to happen all too often in these reader threads. I have come to really enjoy listening to ALL OF YOU give your opinions.

    However, the listless ones - both left and right - need not bother if all you have to offer is bile.
  90. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Is Dion from France or from Canada - If the Conservatives wrote something like that about one of their political opponents, it would have been front-page, leading story on the evening news material.

    It's good to know that the double-standard is alive and well. And living in Toronto at the G&M.
  91. Rabid Senses from Good gawd, a latte-swilling Westerner, Canada writes:

    The globeandmail.com is absolutely ridden with toxic partisanship.

    Only FOOLS and COWARDS identify themselves with only one political party.

    Vote on voting day.

    That hallowed vehicle for your convictions.

    In the meantime, I still look forward to those who put forward constructive arguments sans stripes.
  92. Chuck Berry from Canada writes: Leave every carbon tax dollar in the province it is collected and let each province choose how to spend every carbon tax dollar. Then Dion will become the next prime minister.
    • Posted 09/07/08 at 8:33 PM EST |