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Dion unfazed by carbon-tax objections

CAROLINE ALPHONSO

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 9:48 PM EST 09/07/08

Western provinces risk losing exports if they ignore oil sands' environmental impact, Liberal Leader says ...Read the full article

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  1. Jim **** from Canada writes: They are all out of touch. The tar sands will be exploited because there aren't any alternatives. Alberta is doomed to be an environmental sewer because North American consumers won't lower their energy consumption.

    2 billion dollars in Alberta government subsidies to the tar sands companies won't solve the carbon problem, and it won't do anything to deal with the coming crisis of petroleum depletion.
  2. Don Portz from Trochu AB, Canada writes: While I understand that all politicians like to color the impact of their proposals, party etc. to make them appear more popular then they really are. However assuming G&M qouted Dion, his inferrence that many Albertans support him is ridiculous. Also what does he know about the oil industry to say we will lose exports if we do not buy into his Carbon Tax? With the requirements of the USA and others, it would not see any reduction in sales regardless whether all the oil came from the Oil Sands or not. Also his proposal does not directly try to address this major problem. Why? Because it is only a Tax grab not an enviromental plan.
  3. Matthew Baldwin from Canada writes: I'd like to ask Mr Dion if he thinks there could POSSIBLY be any relationship between his push for CO2 taxes and Shell's abandonment of a new Sarnia refinery that would've employed thousands during construction. Then ask Mr Dion if POSSIBLY the fact the new refinery is on the other side of a border that really is nothing more than a line in the dirt means his policy has in essence traded those thousand jobs for exactly ZERO reduction in CO2. Absolutely brilliant! Go ahead Sarnia....vote Liberal.
  4. Eddie Kated from Canada writes:
    Dion unfazed by carbon tax objections.

    Dion unfazed by credibility objections.

    Dion unfazed by ability objections.

    I am actually going to miss reading about this guy when he disappears into the 'where are they now' file.

    .
  5. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: I think the headline should read: 'Dion Oblivious To Reality'.
  6. Bill Hopkins from London, Canada writes: Dion has no plan except to tax the rest of Canada and turn the proceeds over to Quebec, which is awash with hydro power and doesn't use carbon fuels to generate electricity. His idiotic carbon tax will not prevent one molecule of CO2 from being enmitted into the atmosphere. Alberta, on the other hand, is prepared to put its money where its mouth is and develop technologies for carbon sequestering and storage. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but at least they are prepared to help develop a technology with some potential to help aleviate a problem. There is nothing in Dion's 'plan' that will help develop anything except the federal treasury.
  7. Robert Graves from Majorca, Spain writes: '... Mr. Dion told reporters after the town hall meeting that he was told it [the Green Shift trademark law suit] was not a legal problem because the name was used for the policy and not a commercial company. He said it was “deplorable&8221; that Ms. Wright wants to head to court, but the party will fight the lawsuit if it proceeds. ...'

    Is Dion taking legal advice from lawyer and Liberal Senator Wilfred Moore, the guy who cleverly registered the trademark for the original 'Sponsor-ship', the Bluenose II?
  8. John Kruk from Canada writes: Well it is true that both Obama and McCain both believe in climate change, and both have talked about exactly what Dion said - taxing countries/imports who do not comply with carbon standards.

    It will be ironic if the US is the one who ends up leading Canada on this issue. Normally I would have thought it would be the other way around, but it seems once again we will follow behind the US like a dog instead of leading the walk.
  9. S Boatright from Canada writes: Now that Dion has reassured Premier Campbell that BC will not have to pay into the Green Shift - how does that affect revenue neutrality?

    Does BC get tax credits and the social program benefits - even though it won't be paying into the plan?

    Do any other provinces get exemption?

    Alberta is inventing $2 Billion into mass transit projects, and $2 Billion into carbon sequestration. Do they get exemption from Dion's Green Shift - since they will be putting SIGNIFICANTLY more than Dion's $600 million into environmental initiatives that will actually reduce carbon emissions?

    Still waiting for Dion's answers to these questions.
  10. Nassar Ben Houdja from Canada writes: The liberals have a keep grasp of the oblivious. How about a fee for riding the elevator to cloud nine where the brain trust look down (with contempt) on meer mortals who have no entitlements and are considered fit fodder for tax collectors of the lemming brain trust. Lead the way eastern urbanites, reclaim a few paved parking lots to allow for the oil sands expansion, assumeing the water from the great lakes will support vegetation. Come to think of it, it probably does.
  11. BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    Dion unfazed?... good.

    ..//
  12. Harvey Mushman from cambridge, Canada writes: Mississauga Ontario...population approximately 3/4 of a million people. Dion draws (a quoted) 200...which is most likely a) an over estimate and b) a group stacked with loyal Liberal supporters and party workers...not the general public. Pretty pathetic really. Dion can't seem to draw flies to Shift. Note how Bob Rae and Iggy are not touching the 'Green Shaft' with a ten foot pole. Sure as shift they have distanced themselves from this debacle in order to bolster their leadership chances after Dion crashes.
  13. T Steets from Canada writes: Dion may find some support if he released some form of a rational, reasonable, specific and understandable plan for the extra revenue that would be generated. A comprehensive plan to re-invest the money into 'green' technologies for energy heavy sectors would make the tax hike more palatable. Maybe I just plain missed it, but I don't remember hearing anything about that. If his plan is to reduce emissions simply by making energy more expensive, he is handing the Conservative party five more years of impunity.
  14. Prairie Boy from Canada writes: Unfazed or unaware take your pick.
  15. Commisar From Canuckistan from The west, Canada writes: 'mike sty - from Canada writes:
    There are risks and costs to a program of action. But they are far less than the long-range risks and costs of inaction.

    Dion has a plan.

    Harper has the grease blob.

    The answer is simple. '

    Well the grease blob it is. Thanks Mike.
  16. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: Dion is as good as done...he's tried to occupy the far left's agenda...only most good Canadians see through his tax and re-write Liberal Agenda. You pay 'Carbon' but the Libs hold the cash and re-distribute without environmental causes as the lead item. If this were planning document of a company, I'd give the heave hoe to the Board! Maybe that's what the Libs are hoping for...
  17. D. MacKay from Atlantic, Canada writes:

    Iggy, who after a week of a laughing convulsion , notices the mounting headlines.

    Soberly, he finds Dion , dressed in his Green Avenger costume with his sidekick Kyoto , and says ' listen maybe this is going a little too far, just tone it down slightly'.

    To which the Green Avenger puts his fingers in his ears and says ' la lalalala , I can't hear you, lalalalala.'

    Iggy looks to Rae and says ' Gawd , we have to wait until December ?'

    Looking forward to the next issue.
  18. R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: Now he says our markets will be threatened? Has he not heard or read or know about the incredible level of interest in the oil sands from China and India...but then again I suppose he would block that investment too if he were the PM....keep up the threats and the west's angst will make Quebec look like pansies.
  19. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    I'm with the grease blob.

    Nobody is suing it.
  20. Ed Anger from Canada writes: Dion is unfazed by reality.
  21. P. M. from Ottawa, Canada writes: Wow, if the Liberals can't handle the simple task of picking a legal name for their plan, what makes you think they can implement their massive carbon tax properly?
  22. Brian C from Canada writes: Hey editor, this story is garnering as much negative attention as your last 3 attempts today to promote Dion and his merry band of thieves. Time to shut down these comments too. Quick, before the LPC notices how bad of a job you're doing.
  23. Still Learning at 77 from Canada writes: What is the Alberta's Plan for slowing down the destruction of the common air that everyone breaths. What is their target or do they not have one. I think everyone should be concerned as to what they are going to do.
  24. - Coyote from Canada writes: Sirs, Madames; may I suggest that there seems to be much misunderstanding concerning Carbon Taxes?

    I agree that on the surface it seems silly that a conservative party preferring to reduce government (the BC Liberals) would embark upon this “social engineering” policy, but it does make sense if we think it through.

    The idea is that instead of taxing things that are GOOD for our culture, we shift taxation to that which is BAD, such as is already done with tobacco and alcohol. Instead of taxing Income and Production, we tax mercury, dioxin and carbon. And yes, while this is re-engineering our taxation system, it needs to be pointed out that most of our economic experts and policy makers are pushing for just such a change. We are speaking of a traditionally conservative segment of our pointy headed folk here, and not of a socialist cabal.

    Okay, so this will encourage our economy “to make more environmentally friendly choices,” but why would fiscal conservatives -such as the BC Liberals- get on board this seemingly leftist policy? We can see from the reaction of both the provincial and federal NDP parties that this tax shift is not supported by the left. So how do carbon taxes advance a conservative agenda?

    To better illustrate this, allow me to suggest that our federal Conservative Party is more a party favoring the policies of our grandfathers, as opposed to the more progressive approach to conservatism taken by the BC government. I remind conservatives that I did accurately warn you several years ago in a letter to the editor that you were on the verge of obsolescence, as was confirmed by the failure of the party, the loss of the descriptor “progressive” and the subsequent takeover by the upstart Alberta Reformers.
    Cont....
  25. - Coyote from Canada writes:
    Part 2:...................The problem with this tax shift is that instead of taxing growth in our economy, we tax that-which-we-want-less-of. If the tax shift is successful, the very nature of the taxation strategy means that the tax base shrinks. Ergo, fiscal conservatism is achieved by stealth, while the environmental, moral and income concerns of the citizens are appeased.


    Thus conservatives that criticize this tax do so either out of ignorance of how the policy works or in support of INDUSTRY'S RIGHT TO POLLUTE.


    This is where the federal conservatives are exposed as dinosaurs -throwbacks to our grandfather's time arguing for Industry's Right to Pollute- promoting a Sask/Alberta agenda rather than a true “progressive” or fiscally conservative policy more fitting to 21'st century concerns of approaching Global Climate Destabilization and Energy Scarcity.


    Finally, if the new Conservative Party is obsolete, what does make the NDP? In the last election I called for the Greens and the NDP to merge. I received no response to my emails. At this time, I suggest that it may be necessary to save the NDP from political obsolescence as this TAX SHIFT IDEA is as POWERFUL and INEVITABLE as it is complex.
  26. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    What's the difference between the grease blob and Dion?

    The grease blob has a brain.
  27. Ed Anger from Canada writes: This reminds me of a monty python skit. Dion is being thrown on the body wagon saying 'Im not dead yet'. Fortunately most Canadians allready know he is...
  28. bob london from Canada writes: How is the Green Shift going to help the environment when it goes to Ontario social programs? How are we to be a leader, the dumbest populous?
  29. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Now we know why the Liberal caucus muzzles Dion.
  30. The Real PS from Canada writes: 'He said it was “deplorable” that Ms. Wright wants to head to court, but the party will fight the lawsuit if it proceeds.'

    Kind of says it all doesn't it, here's a man who thinks he can do anything he wants due to the inalienable rights of the libby party and anyone who wants to protect what's theirs, created through their hard work, is deemed deplorable, from small business people to the west.

    And to think there is a chance he may be (mis) running the country some day, a slim chance I agree but a chance never the less.
  31. Richard Soley from writes: Politicans are elected because they are popular not because they are smart. In the matter of Mr. Dion and his 'Tax the west pay the rest' program he fails on both counts. Rather than offer incentives for research and development he falls back on the old saw 'Tax'. The punitive effects of this tax will divide the country, harm industry, kill jobs, solve nothing toward carbon emmissions, and choke off the will to develop the ways and means of continuing the prosperity Canada has enjoyed. Further to this the Liberal leader has no idea of what the future holds, therefore telling us we will be better off in the future smacks of fortune telling. The only fortune I see is the one Mr. Dion would receive for Quebec under this 'Tax the west pay the rest' program. At least Trudeau gave us the finger!
  32. Free The West from Free the West, Canada writes: If the G&M were a respectable newspaper they would be seeking out Rae and Ignatief to get their opinions on this 'plan' on record!!
  33. The Real PS from Canada writes: Still Learning at 77 from Canada writes: What is the Alberta's Plan for slowing down the destruction of the common air that everyone breaths. What is their target or do they not have one. I think everyone should be concerned as to what they are going to do.

    Hi Still, perhaps you missed the announcement about the Alberta Conservative Party providing $4 billion for carbon sequestering. I stand to be corrected but I would guess thats more than the libbies have ever spent it total to combat climate change
  34. Mr. Perfect from Canada writes:
    Mikey,
    you are wrong,
    I can understand the grease blob.
  35. pierre lefebvre from Brossard, Canada writes: Dion unfazed with objections to revenue-neutral carbon tax. His message does not get any mileage with Canadians. Guess what, by next fall his circus will be over. Arrogant and narcissistic, this misfit non-leader will be history.
  36. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: S Boatright, that $4 billion is actually $400 million/yr of which $200 million/yr amounts to a industrial subsidy. The $200 million/yr amounts to less than 1% of Alberta's current annual budget. The combined $400 million/yr amounts to about 1% of the provincial budget. Since the carbon tax is per tonne emitted, reductions in emissions through carbon storage will reduce the federal carbon tax paid.

    The other aspect of taxation of the oil industry is that Obama has promised to hit them hard. If he follows through and the suspect argument that taxation of oil resources determines investment (there are very limited oil resources that allow private investment in what is largely a nationalized resource throughout the world), the U.S. tax will either drive investment to Canada or enable Canada or Alberta to increase its taxation or royalty charges.

    As for driving the refineries south and taking away construction jobs, I think that the more likely answer is that the overheated Alberta economy has driven up construction costs so high that it is no longer economically viable to construct refineries here. It's also a major factor driving up the costs of activity in Fort McMurray. Perhaps if you took a 50% pay cut, these companies might be more willing to build post-extraction facilities in Alberta.
  37. D. MacKay from Atlantic, Canada writes:

    Free the West:

    IF you can't say anything nice , say nothing at all.
  38. First Name: Last Name: from the middle of, Canada writes: .
    Dion has a bold plan. The blob is a blob.
    .
  39. Harvey Mushman from cambridge, Canada writes: Dion's 'Green Shift' reminds me of the oft posted joke on office cork boards...'The floggings will continue until moral improves.'
  40. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: This is what Mary Coyote REALLY thinks of Alberta and Albertans - in her own words from May 21/08.

    '- Coyote from Canada writes: Ray Crawford: Gee Ray, I think that with Trudeau fixing the Canadian price at 75% of the world price.......that this stripped the GREED out of Alberta rather than the other way around.

    Alberta is swelling up with greed again; perhaps time to get the leeches out. National interest and all....'

    Like Dion's Green Shaft, it's got NOTHING to do with environmental issues. It's all about transferring money from west to east. It's the old NEP with a coat of green paint for those who are not able to think for themselves, or read a little history.

    Have a nice evening, Mary.
  41. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    'He insisted that his plan was nothing like the much-hated National Energy Program of the 1980s. '

    Except for the part where wealth is transferred from the west to Ssouthern Ontario.
  42. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Why should Mr. Dion be fazed? Were critics expecting him to cower in a corner? They don't know the man, obviously, or - and this is a distinct possibility - they bought the CPC line hook, line, and sinker. Nod to martha. Don Portz:-- Many Albertans support Mr. Dion. Not a majority, not even a sizable minority, but certainly many. Even at the height of Adscam, almost two in ten Albertans voted Liberal. Albertans are not the Borg, after all.
  43. spicydoc--That'll do, spicydoc, that'll do... from Canada writes:

    Dion is 'unfazed' by the reality swirling around him. So was Mr. Magoo.

    Regarding the article, one thing stuck out.

    Only 200 people showed up!!

    Mississauga is in the heart of LPC country. Also note that a very large population of 'visible minority' Canadians live there. The same groups that Kennedy and Dion used to win the leadership from Iggy (and maybe Bob).

    It's like having your parents not show up for your wedding.

    Or RUSH only drawing 200 people to the ACC.

    Mind-numbing.
  44. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: Coyote from Canada writes: ...
    The idea is that instead of taxing things that are GOOD for our culture, we shift taxation to that which is BAD,

    Hey Coyote, are you getting your talking points off of the liberals web site? How about this for not understanding economics 101 which you obviously skipped as you were in 'Arts' class. How about inflation pushed upon the middle class, how about jobs that you aparently don't forsee being eliminated, how about the collapse of the economy, to save those things that are good or bad? Last time we let you Voles into the mix you did corrupt and kill jobs...hey tax go ahead tax yourself out of your house, you are a fool or a Liberal - same thing...
  45. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Bobby Dy from Canada writes: 'As for driving the refineries south and taking away construction jobs, I think that the more likely answer is that the overheated Alberta economy has driven up construction costs so high that it is no longer economically viable to construct refineries here. It's also a major factor driving up the costs of activity in Fort McMurray. Perhaps if you took a 50% pay cut, these companies might be more willing to build post-extraction facilities in Alberta.'

    ======================================

    So, labour costs in Ft. Mac AB sank Shell's proposed refinery project in Sarnia ON? C'mon, Bobby. That's a stretch, even for you...
  46. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    ' He warned that western provinces risk losing exports if they do not address U.S. concerns about the environmental impact of the oil sands'

    The refiners, transporters and distrubuters of refined products such as gasoline and home heating oil have little or no way of determining where the oil they are consuming comes from. They couldn't refuse Albert oil even if they tried to. There are no mechanisms in place, and putting them in place would cost billions.
  47. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    diane marie from calgary, in a fit of wisdom, 'Albertans are not the Borg, after all.'

    Ah, diane.
    You are conversant in the ways of the Borg?
    And an LPC supporter?

    Tell us more of this Borg.
  48. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    'He warned that western provinces risk losing exports if they do not address U.S. concerns about the environmental impact of the oil sands'

    NAFTA makes it illegal for the American government to restrict Canadian oil supplies.
  49. BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    CO2 does not cause global warming.

    There is no global warming, in fact the globe is cooling.

    There is 1.5MM sqkm more sea ice this year compared to this time last year.

    Sunspots are at a minimum... explaining the cool weather.

    http://sidc.oma.be/html/wolfjmms.html

    It ain't CO2.. it is the sun.

    Dion Quixote.. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..

    Ho ho...

    ..//
  50. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    'Mr. Dion told reporters after the town hall meeting that he was told it was not a legal problem because the name was used for the policy and not a commercial company. He said it was “deplorable” that Ms. Wright wants to head to court, but the party will fight the lawsuit if it proceeds.'

    Mr Wright obviously does not want his good name ruined by association with Dion's hair brained policy.
  51. Still Learning at 77 from Canada writes: Thanks PS , would you happen to know what the projected percentage reduction in Alberta's co2 output will be after the $4 billion is spent by taxpayers. What the Liberal have done or will do does not concern me as much as what the Alberta gov does.
  52. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    'Mr. Dion said he wants developing countries, such as China and India, to act on climate change. But Mr. Harper also needs to address the issue domestically, he said'

    The only way to take the lead and influence reducing emissions in the Pacific rim is to take our manufacturing industries back from our proxy emitters, bite the bullet and deal with skyrocketing inflation. The Chinese have long proven they have no interest in reducing emission for their own sake.
  53. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    'diane marie from calgary, in a fit of wisdom, 'Albertans are not the Borg, after all.'

    Ah, diane.
    You are conversant in the ways of the Borg?
    And an LPC supporter?

    Tell us more of this Borg.'

    ========================================

    Good one, Michael. I laughed out loud. :)
  54. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    “Canada should be a leader. Canada should be the one that said to the others ‘I am exemplary. Do the same,' instead of being the one that said ‘I will do nothing unless you do something,'” Mr. Dion told the audience.'

    Canada can not take the lead. We do not emit enough CO2 do be a leader in emissions reduction.
  55. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: But the issue is, really please admit it - this is not a Carbon Tax. This is a Liberal raiding of the left votes - cuppled with a Motherhood issue of why wouldn't you want to save the Planet? Except of course Big Government comes back and hyper inflation is confirmed. Well great plan, if you admire job loss...
  56. spicydoc--That'll do, spicydoc, that'll do... from Canada writes:

    I got a call from a very nice young woman today. She was from the LPC.

    I donated a chunk of cash to Iggy, and am therefore on the LPC call list.

    This girl thanked me for my support, and wanted to remind me that the LPC were ramping up their fundraising for this fall's election.

    I told her an election hasn't been called yet.

    She told me 'Yes, but there probably will be one, especially with the new Carbon Tax plan being launched'. She sounded quite sure about this.

    I asked her what would happen if Harper prorogued. She didn't have an answer. I told her I would consider my donations if and when an election is called, and would likely do it through the website. She thanked me.

    I didn't bother telling her that the LPC will not get a penny out of me until Iggy becomes leader---(at which time I will contribute the max).

    There you have it.

    Election this fall.

    PS--I was actually a bit impressed that the LPC is actually trying more 'grass roots' stuff. They said they would try, and are doing so.

    Now if only the grass roots could hasten Dion's exit, the LPC might be in business.
  57. Ron Pacific from Victoria, Canada writes: The Dion plan will never go done well in Calgary or Fort McMurray but it will sell well in Ontario, Quebec and parts of BC. Whether you agree or not, Dion's plan will be his road to (get this) a Liberal majority government created by big seat gains in Ontario, Quebec, the Maritimes and urban BC. Also, the plan is excellent for Dion's image; the plan is helping to transform Dion's image as a 'spineless wimp' into a 'fearless leader' willing to take controversial and perhaps risky positions that not everyone agrees with. The plan will be divisive and will not favour Alberta but it will work. Dion correctly realizes he will never, ever get any Liberal seats in Alberta, so he is shrewdly sacrificing Alberta votes he will never get to pick up votes in places where Alberta is not loved. The plan is primarily about getting a Liberal majority which I believe will likely happen because of the plan. The mathematics are favouring Dion. Further, with the price of gas at $140/bbl, no-one outside of Alberta or Saskatchewan will have much sympathy for the Alberta oil companies, oil executives (or even the $100,000 /yr. blue collar oil workers in Fort McMurray) who will become convenient whipping boys in the next election. Of course, we should all consider that the Dion plan will hurt the oil industry and investors far less than the Harper tax on income trusts did but Albertans will not see it that way because it is a French Canadian Liberal doing the taxing. The Americans won't be coming to Alberta's rescue either as their politicians are really raising the rhetoric over the oil sands (which seems very foolish given their huge dependence on foreign oil) and 'greedy' oil companies. Ruthless and unfair perhaps - but if Harper were in Dion's position, he would do exactly the same thing. I am afraid that Dion is cornering the Alberta oil industry and their Tory supporters and it looks like 'check mate'.
  58. Mr. Perfect from Canada writes: Diane Marie,
    500 people combined for both Edmonton and Calgary to hear him making his carbon speech.
    No kidding he doesn't have a sizeable minority.
    With your keen eye for the obvious, and your education I would think you would not be backing a loser like Mr, Dion.
  59. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    You know what?
    Seriously?

    I believe Dion just threatened the West.

    In the grand tradition of Pierre Eliot Trudeau, another Liberal swine has just given the West the finger.

    This is further confirmation that these are not New Liberals, these are the old boys and their club, arrogant in their ways.

    This is win-win for the West.

    The CPC stay in, they get treated respectfully.
    The LPC get in, the West separates.

    Either way, there is no plan in the West's future to be ruled by that old boys club, the Liberal Party of Canada.

    I freaking hate Liberals.

    But we all knew that.
  60. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Sweeney Todd:-- In the case of Shell, the former Shell Canada is no longer an independent entity, but is now taking its marching orders from Shell HQ via Houston. Furthermore, several refineries in the U.S. 'enjoyed' excess capacity - or should one say excess capacity at the price of security. They'll have to reconfigure for the bitumen feedstock and will try to expand facilities while they're at it. The Alberta tar sands are increasingly under the control of foreign multinationals, which will make business decisions will little regard for national or even provincial niceties. However, to put matters in some perspective, ConocoPhillips is getting exasperated with matters environmental in the U.S. and is threatening to build a huge refinery in Saudi Arabia. Albertans who fuss about Ottawa are missing the really big picture.
  61. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Still Learning at 77 from Canada writes: 'Thanks PS , would you happen to know what the projected percentage reduction in Alberta's co2 output will be after the $4 billion is spent by taxpayers. What the Liberal have done or will do does not concern me as much as what the Alberta gov does.'

    ===================================

    How so, Still Learning? Do you live, work & pay taxes in AB?

    You're over 20 years older than me. Your generation ran the table for Sarnia's Chemical Valley dumping crap into the St. Clair River, Hamilton Harbour, Sudbury, what was El Dorado Nuclear in Port Hope, Lake Erie being declared a 'dead lake' etc. And YOU would lecture ME or ANYONE on pollution? Hypocrite, thy name is Still Learning...

    You & I are old enough to know what REAL pollution is, Still Learning. This ain't it. And we BOTH know it.
  62. - Coyote from Canada writes: Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes writes: “Coyote, How about inflation pushed upon the middle class, how about jobs that you apparently don't foresee being eliminated, how about the collapse of the economy, to save those things that are good or bad?”

    *
    Building an Ark: Global Climate Destabilization and Energy Scarcity will deliver the results you most fear whether we take pro-active action or not. In fact according to the experts, including the Pentagon, Exxon and a large group of American Industry, the results will be a lot worse if we fail to take action now.

    Greg Craven: “How it All Ends”
    http://tinyurl.com/5zl9rc
  63. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//

    CO2 does not cause global warming.

    There is no global warming, in fact the globe is cooling.

    There is 1.5MM sqkm more sea ice this year compared to this time last year.

    Sunspots are at a minimum... explaining the cool weather.

    http://sidc.oma.be/html/wolfjmms.html

    It ain't CO2.. it is the sun.

    Dion Quixote.. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..

    Ho ho...

    Would you mind providing me with some backup for your 1.5million km of sea ice comment please? Your link only covers the solar cylce/temperature correlation.
  64. D. B. from Greater Sask., Canada writes: I would like to hear from the real experts about carbon capture, as epitomized by the Stelmach plan in Alberta. Apparently, carbon capture won't be ready for use on any appreciable scale before 2030. It costs an awful lot, it takes up maybe 25 percent of the energy used by the plant in question, and it has its own risks. Is carbon capture really feasible? And is 2030 a good timeframe for getting it online?
  65. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Ron Pacific from Victoria?

    Man.
    I've got some good stuff but yours seems way better.
    What say we get together and swap a couple of tasty buds?

    I want what you're smoking.
  66. Derek Holtom from Swan River, Canada writes: mike sty - from Canada writes:
    There are risks and costs to a program of action. But they are far less than the long-range risks and costs of inaction.

    you're right. It's all risk and reward.
    All risk for Alberta and Saskatchewan. All reward for central Canada.
    Dion should change his plan. Every carbon dollar Alberta pays stays in Alberta. People MIGHT go for that, though I doubt it.
    That's still better than paying a carbon tax to fund social programs central Canada.
    If Dion is so green, he'd change his plan to make sure Alberta and Sask don't pay more carbon tax then they receive.
    That will never happen though. The Liberals know all about screwing the west.
  67. - Coyote from Canada writes: BUB ImumI from Canada writes: “..// CO2 does not cause global warming. There is no global warming, in fact the globe is cooling.” * You are hereby challenged: Greg Craven: “How it All Ends” http://tinyurl.com/5zl9rc
  68. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Many posters/readers ought to get their noggins out of Alberta, let alone the tar sands. Check out ConocoPhillips' difficulties at Roxana, Illinois, for example. You may call it NIMBY, but it's not just a feature of your own parochial back 40 (to use a farming term).
  69. - Coyote from Canada writes: Uncle Fester writes: “Canada can not take the lead. We do not emit enough CO2 do be a leader in emissions reduction.” * Indeed, here is someone advocating that our graet nation is not so great; that we should NOT be an industrial leader; that we should NOT be smarter than the rest; that we should NOT try to compete to be best. We emit the highest PER CAPITA CO2. But that does not count, right?
  70. - Coyote from Canada writes: Uncle Fester writes: “Canada can not take the lead. We do not emit enough CO2 do be a leader in emissions reduction.” * Indeed, here is someone advocating that our graet nation is not so great; that we should NOT be an industrial leader; that we should NOT be smarter than the rest; that we should NOT try to compete to be best. We emit the highest PER CAPITA CO2. But that does not count, right?
  71. - Coyote from Canada writes: Uncle Fester writes: “Canada can not take the lead. We do not emit enough CO2 do be a leader in emissions reduction.”


    *

    Indeed, here is someone advocating that our graet nation is not so great; that we should NOT be an industrial leader; that we should NOT be smarter than the rest; that we should NOT try to compete to be best.


    We emit the highest PER CAPITA CO2. But that does not count, right?
  72. Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: Ron Pacific from Victoria, Canada writes: The Dion plan will never go done well in Calgary or Fort McMurray but it will sell well in Ontario, Quebec and parts of BC.--------

    Well put, I agree with your take on Dion's plan. Check Mate on Mr Harper. He is to much a control freak and it would be nice to see him out of the Conservative Party.
  73. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: Coyote from Canada writes: the results will be a lot worse if we fail to take action now.
    Greg Craven: “How it All Ends”

    Ah I get your delivery now, catastrophe! Pandemic! Wow we are all screwd us now...except my for fathers and yours had to deal with way worse... you however deal in a group of wusses, feeble types will be exposed Coyote...you seem to relish that thought...
  74. Uncle Fester from Canada writes: D. B. from Greater Sask., Canada writes: Is carbon capture really feasible? And is 2030 a good timeframe for getting it online?

    It is already being done in your home province. Hitler developed the technology to create fuel from coal for his war machine when the allies cut off his oil supplies. It can'it can stand on it's own without subsidy however. I am certain it isn't in Weyburn at least.

    http://prosperitywest.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/western-canada-%E2%80%93-the-future-leader-in-clean-energy/
  75. - Coyote from Canada writes: Mr. Perfect writes: “Diane Marie, With your keen eye for the obvious, and your education I would think you would not be backing a loser like Mr, Dion.” * Personal insults, even thinly veiled, acknowledge that you concede defeat to your debating partner. You know this, don't you?
  76. D. B. from Greater Sask., Canada writes: still learning at 78: I believe happy birthday is in order! Happy birthday (and I am sure you once were 'stlll learning at 77'). If only we could all want to keep learning. If I am wrong about your birthday, then I will get to my learning.
  77. - Coyote from Canada writes: Mr. Perfect writes: “Diane Marie, With your keen eye for the obvious, and your education I would think you would not be backing a loser like Mr, Dion.”


    *


    Personal insults, even thinly veiled, acknowledge that you concede defeat to your debating partner. You know this, don't you?
  78. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:
    Coyote from Canada writes:
    We emit the highest PER CAPITA CO2. But that does not count, right?

    Not to the planet it doesn't. It only counts in the world of ideology.
  79. Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: weeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes:

    How so, Still Learning? Do you live, work & pay taxes in AB?

    I do not now, but I just happened to be the guy that did the first sismic work on the tar sands, you young pup are living off the results of my work. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
  80. OLP AGM beer a from Canada writes: People here that mention what Obama might do in response to our selling of oil from the tar sands are either stupid or unaware of Obama's flip-flops.

    Obama is not going to renegotiate NAFTA. He lied about that.
    Obama is not going to do anything about telecommunication companies allowing domesteic spying. He lied about that.
    Obama is not going to have a timetable for a pullout in Iraq. He lied about that.

    Obama is not going to do complain much about our dirty oil, as the price is too high. Obama lies, like almost all politicians. Get over it, Liberal hacks.

    As for asking Bob Rae's opinion, I would only like to hear it from an entertainment perspective. As a resident of Ontario and a student, i dislike that man.

    Yes, Harper is bad also, but he seem more intelligent than Dion (Dion lacks common-sense)
  81. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: Coyote from Canada writes: We emit the highest PER CAPITA CO2. But that does not count, right?

    Unless you are using euro trash stats, the Facts are Canada has the lowest CO2 emmisions per hectacre on the Planet woo sorry Europe, and the second fact is Canada has now less than 2% of the PLANET'S CO2 inconvenient Coyote, but still true and factual..
  82. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: I echo D. B.'s best wishes. Happy Birthday, Still Learning, you young pup.
  83. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: 'Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes:

    How so, Still Learning? Do you live, work & pay taxes in AB?

    I do not now, but I just happened to be the guy that did the first sismic work on the tar sands, you young pup are living off the results of my work. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.'

    =====================================

    So, you get to 'make yours', then advocate pulling up the ladder, leaving the rest of us in the economic pit? Hypocrisy at it's finest.
  84. Woody Forrest from Out in the Sticks, Canada writes: - Coyote from Canada writes: 'Part 2 ... Thus conservatives that criticize this tax do so either out of ignorance of how the policy works or in support of INDUSTRY'S RIGHT TO POLLUTE. ...'

    Coyote, you make some sane, logical points, but the one I quote above makes you look like an ignorant whack job. Are you at all familiar with Canada's Environmental Protection Act? Are you familiar with the permit requirements to make water or air discharges? Are you familiar with the penalties for violating the regulations in your province? INDUSTRY DOES NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO POLLUTE! This is a lie being pushed on a techncially illiterate public.

    If you view CO2 as pollution, then move to have it regulated in a way similar to how CO or SO2 are regulated. Have a go at taking away hospital's, office building's, shopping mall's, delivery truck's and buses right to 'pollute'.

    While your at it, take away your right to 'pollute' with your hot water heater and heating furnace. And when you're living in a dark cave, you might have earned the right to lecture - but not before.
  85. - Coyote from Canada writes: Michael Sharp: obviously you failed to read my post of 10:29 PM EDT expanding the discussion, b4 your post. Please try again.
  86. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Vote Liberal.
    Drink coffee in recycled cups.
  87. Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes: - Coyote from Canada writes: Michael Sharp: obviously you failed to read my post of 10:29 PM EDT expanding the discussion, b4 your post. Please try again.

    ============================================

    You obviously failed to read my post of 10:43.

    Please try again.
  88. - Coyote from Canada writes: Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes writes: “Coyote from Canada writes: We emit the highest PER CAPITA CO2. But that does not count, right?

    Canada has the lowest CO2 emmisions per hectacre”

    *

    What is it that they say about statistics? That they can be used to prove any point? Well yours is a case study, I am sure. Lots of empty land in Canada, so that means, per capita, we are allowed more carbon per person than, say, China. Is this really your argument?
  89. David Griffith from NS, Canada writes: Dion will be very 'fazed' when voters soundly reject his wealth redistribution tax, aka Green Shaft. Is that Iggy and Rae I see warming up in the bullpen?
  90. Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: Sweeney Todd from Oilberta, Canada writes:
    So, you get to 'make yours', then advocate pulling up the ladder, leaving the rest of us in the economic pit? Hypocrisy at it's finest.

    I left Alberta years ago, Thank God. You are right you are in a pit and don't know how to get out. To me Alberta tends to be the extreme of the me first citizens. They seem to live in fear that someone is going to ask them for help. They try very hard to morally justify their greed like you are doing.

    Have a good day and may no body ask to much of you.
  91. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Look.
    We're all going to die horrible, hot, nasty deaths if we don't do something.
    I get that.

    It comes through loud and clear in any number of strident, histrionic posts.

    What in gawd's name does day care have to do with saving the world?

    The Liberals are tax and spend and are some sort of miffed that Harper reduced the GST, the LPC pet revenue collector.

    Do not offend my intelligence by sufggesting that this 'Green Shift' is about reducing GHGs.

    It is about Liberal social engineering.

    I want none of it.

    Dion offends me.
  92. - Coyote from Canada writes: Woody Forrest from Out in the Sticks: I am not sure I get your drift. You are arguing that instead of shifting taxes from income and production that we should keep these taxes and use regulatory agencies, eg: larger government, to restrict polluting behaviour? Is that correct?


    Well then your argument is with the economists and experts that advocate carbon taxes and not with me. I was only attempting to explain the new paradigm to you.
  93. Is Dion from France or from Canada writes: It seems the very non-partisan Globe and Mail, who published a very unflattering article about Prime Minister Stephen Harper when he said that Dion with his Green Shift was trying to 'screw us', has missed an even more unflattering story. One in which a Liberal candidate for St. Catharines, Walt Lastewka, posted on his newsletter an incredibly hateful joke. The joke told is about the assassination of Stephen Harper.
    Here is the link, it is on page 3 of the document.
    http://scliberals.ca/Newsletters/Spring'08.pdf

    There is absolutely no place for hateful literature like that, and I call upon Mr. Dion to remove this person from contention for MP representing St. Catharines. And I ask the Globe and Mail to show at least some degree of non-partisanship by publishing an article addressing this incident.
  94. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: Coyote from Canada writes: ...What is it that they say about statistics? That they can be used to prove any point? Well yours is a case study, I am sure. Lots of empty land in Canada, so that means, per capita, we are allowed more carbon per person than, say, China. Is this really your argument?

    Um no Coyote...the fact that 33M inhabit a land that includes the Arctic Circle, that we inhabit a land that for most, six months of the year goes to heating of your house, and you point to comparisons across the pond and elswehere where they can grow grapes and live without winter seems a little disingenous...however you live in southern Ontario where Shangrila and plenty is the order of the day...
  95. - Coyote from Canada writes: OLP AGM beer a: methinks you assume too much. Obama is an activist from the most basic community levels. If he is elected as seems quite possible, you had better be aware of his activism before you assume that he will NOT encourage some sort of action against dirty Canadian oil. He will most definitely want to promote AMERICAN new energy solutions while at the same time discouraging dirty options.
  96. Woody Forrest from Out in the Sticks, Canada writes: Did I miss something? (really!) Buzz Hargrove's retirement anouncement made page one (didn't it?). The cancellation of Shell's new refinery near Sarnia was buried in the business section.

    How could it be that in a province that's shedding manufacturing jobs right and left, that the loss of several billion dollars in new construction gets a dry, ho-hum announcement? Seriously, is it just me?

    You know how we hear ads urging us to replace our old refrigerators with more energy efficient new ones? It works like that with refineries too. The new refinery might have forced an older one to shut down. A net positive effect, even though the new one has its share of GHG emissions.

    A new refinery also might have help keep gas prices down too, if it increased the supply locally. Remember the impact of Imperial Oil's recent Nanticoke refinery fire? People