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'Why not just talk about it?'

CATE COCHRAN

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 3:51 AM EST 19/07/08

Abortion has been unrestricted in Canada for two decades, but few women who make the choice ever talk about it ...Read the full article

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  1. Rae Vandenberg from Canada writes: I'm pro-choice, but I'm not sure I could ever have an abortion. It is the ending of a life. My reasons for being pro-choice are practical. What care is a woman going to give to an unborn child she doesn't want? Also, ultimately, some lives in this world have more influence and carry more weight than others. One only has to take a look at what's going on in the third world to realize this. Every social system has a breaking point.

    What I really want to know is why women are not demanding better birth control so that abortions don't have to happen in this day and age? What I admire about Morgantaler is that he challenged a system - long ago - that was hypocritical. Women were treated differently than men when it came to abortions and poor women were treated differently than women who came from wealthy or influential families. But why can't we recognize him as an historical footnote?

    I am dismayed by some of the reasons a woman gives for having an abortion. Adoption should be promoted as a good alternative in many - but not all - cases. The stigma for being unmarried and pregnant is not what it once was. There are so many couples out there desperate to have a child.....
  2. Charlotte Creamer from Halifax, Canada writes: I got pregnant from a two-week fling back in 1989. I considered the 'thing' growing in me to be nothing more than a tumor that needed to be removed. I had no qualms about setting the appointment with the Morgantaler clinic on Harbord Street in Toronto. I even arrived early for my 'procedure', fighting my way through the pro-life protestors at the back entrance, one of whom, a minister, railing at me that I was surely going to hell. What struck me first about the clinic when I stepped through the door was the overwhelming smell of flowers -- and for good reason. There were flowers everywhere in the waiting room -- potted, in vases, some lying still in their paper wrappings. It was like a flower shop. I was interviewed, counselled about adoption options (which I vigorously declined), and then was prepped for the abortion. Morgantaler himself performed it, accompanied by three or four assistants. When it was over, the good doctor, knowing I was extremely near-sighted, leaned over me as I lay on the operating table, stuck his ugly mug right in my face, slammed a package of condoms down on my chest and growled: 'I never want to see you here again.' He never did. The next year, on the anniversary of my 'procedure', I found myself stopping at the convenience store just down the street from Morgantaler's. I bought a pot of Mums, and dropped them off at the back door of the clinic. I did that every year until the clinic was bombed and then razed into a parking lot. I still cry over my choice to have the 'procedure', and I still mark its anniversary every year, silently, in my heart. I never had any children, and now it's too late. But I have to say this -- by far, and without equivocation, Henry Morgantaler's growl and condom slam did more to keep my out of abortion clinics than any number of protestors, however loud, and any number of placards, however graphic. He deserves the Order of Canada, as the most effective anti-abortionist I have ever seen.
  3. George Nikitin from Hamilton, Canada writes: Abortion is deeply personal and controversial. Why would people want to talk about it? It's not exactly an appetizing subject matter and one's view may be likely to offend another.
  4. C R from Canada writes: Charlotte Creamer...thank you for sharing your story. I am sorry for your loss and what you have had to go through. I found your story very touching. When I was a teen I was very pro-choice...after all I was all about 'Woman Power' and all that, and then I got pregnant at 18. I was not a wealthy teen with a supportive family...actually, quite the opposite...everyone kept repeating the same message to me 'have an abortion or else _____ will happen to you' (we can fill in the blanks with any thing like 'welfare bum, poor forever, sick child, no life' 'etc... ). My friends turned on me, many family members were embarassed by me (save a couple), there was no one to make it ok for me. I chose to have my sweet baby (years later I realized it was a God thing!) and struggled my way through. Those days were not easy, but they opened my eyes to a lot. I now live a completely different life (highly educated, good citizen...all the worldly things that seem to matter to people) but I have realized a few things about the abortion issue. We as a society aren't doing each other a favour...we are just getting rid of the issues that bother us. As a woman I am ashamed of my elitist generation for turning our backs on the idea of reaching out our hands to each other in support. We talk about being pro-choice, but so many times we leave each other with absolutely no choice. Young women and men are worth far more than the value that we put on them through our so-called liberating policy and laws... Yes, I know many of you will say that women have made great strides and all the usual arguments. But truly, in the art of humanity, I believe we have taken 10 steps back. I don't expect anyone to agree, but I do believe we are so blind and deaf to what we allow ourselves to see and do... People are valuable in a much greater way than the value we this society has allotted them. May we move on to greater things. Good day to all.
  5. Bob Cajun from the glorious nation of coboconk, Canada writes: Ah the silence of talking about it. When half the population does not even consider it an option, what do you expect? Likewise, there is a stigma about mourning the loss of your children due to miscarriage cause the other half of the population do not even consider them human. C'est la vie.

    As for C R's comments, it is so true that society is not supportive of choosing single-parenthood. Sure, your job will be safe for a 12 mnth mat. leave - will your scholarship? Your place in an academic program? Will your student loans not come due? Will a counselor tell you about the subsidized daycare, housing, child/GST tax credit? Will your own family disown you? Will a pregnancy stop you from completing your BA and getting that dead-end job 90% of the population with an arts degree ends up with anyways? A friend of mine had a friend of hers - a single parent herself - tell her she could not make it on her own. Really? My friend was in her late 20s, bright articulate, with a job and a university degreeBA.

    There is no choice in Canada, only ultimatums
  6. JN Smith from Canada writes: C R - I agree with your comments. We've focused so much on abortion as the only choice. I think we've regressed as a society. We need to provide more support to pregnant women when they make choices. The choice has long term implications in your life whatever choice is made.
  7. David any from Rico!, Canada writes: Great discussion. Straight up. My Sis the same. Never had kids after. Lots of Sadness and Regret. But her choice.
    I defend a womans choice. We need lots more support but not from Holier than thou's. Pragmatism, Love and Support.
    We all screw up. That's life. A lot of this is men pointing the finger. Double standard crap.
    Good child care is the answer. Kids don't have to be life ending or career ending. It takes a village to raise a child. Not all the weight on one person's shoulders.
    Still Choice.
  8. Tyler Williams from seattle, United States writes: .

    David from Rico, could you possibly cram any more tired cliches and stale activist slogans and mantras into one short post?

    .
  9. John Smith from Ottawa, Canada writes: Interesting comments from the male bloggers. I refuse to hold a pro-life vs. pro-choice position. In my mind, abortion is mostly a female issue, and while men should definitely be consultated, in the end the woman has to make the decision.
  10. J A from Vancouver, Canada writes: I knew I didn't want children, so at age 29 I opted for sterilization. (I am now 65.) The procedure used was experimental, and turned out to have a high failure rate. I became pregnant, and immediately chose abortion and another sterilization. I prepared for the abortion with respect and with consciousness of what I was doing. Afterwards I felt nothing but relief. No ambivalence. I have never regretted the decision.

    I agree that women like myself should speak up about our experiences so that the the profile of those who choose this option can expand into the wider truth that as long as there have been women, we have sought to end unwanted pregnancy. The only question is whether we will be allowed to do so safely. I salute Dr. Morgentaler and all those who have worked to provide this.
  11. Pamphleteer . from Canada writes: Note to author: the SCC did not decrimininalize abortion. That is common misperception. It ruled in the Morganthaler case that the abortion regime at the time was administratively unfair and thus unconstitutional under section 7 of the Charter. It left open the question if Parliament could criminalize some abortions under a revised law. The PC government at the time tried to pass a new law that would have tried to be compliant with that decision. However, that new law died in the senate when the nay and yays votes on the bill tied. No new abortion law has since been introduced by either the House or the Senate. Thus, Canada has no law on abortion, which is how it was 'decriminalized.'
  12. Mike Witcher from montreal, Canada writes: Charolette Creamer,
    I have no idea if your story was real or fiction (I suspect mostly fiction), but it was superb! You should change the names, expand it and publish it as a short story (I'm not joking). I normally whine about people's long posts, but a skillfully written and interesting story such as your own should have been much longer.
  13. Troubled Youth from Everywhere, Canada writes: That's because it's not the sunny uncomplicated simple procedure as it's sold to women. Many women are physically as well as mentally traumatized by their experience.
  14. Some Thoughts from Canada writes: The trouble I see with the child not being recognized as an individual until birth is the law has no teeth when it comes to providing protection against fetal alcohol syndrome, nicotine exposure (neurotoxic effects) etc, and yet Canadian society has to deal with the consequences, the damaged lives that result.
  15. Darphin Cofa from Canada writes: It is no mystery why abortion is not something that women openly share: even without any sense of guilt or shame or fear of repraisal, abortions are highly personal and why share that with just anybody? While abortions are legal and common in Canada, I would not want that procedure to be normalised, even if most women have had one in their lives, the aim is that abortions should be rare. Regardless of what one thinks of the status of the fetus, it is a heavy decision to end new life, a decision one should try to avoid.
  16. REV eighteenseventeen from Canada writes: A message to the lady that has been through this- Jesus loves you! Your forgiven. Only believe.
  17. Charlotte Creamer from Halifax, Canada writes: 'Mike Witcher from montreal, Canada writes: Charolette Creamer, I have no idea if your story was real or fiction (I suspect mostly fiction), but it was superb! You should change the names, expand it and publish it as a short story (I'm not joking). I normally whine about people's long posts, but a skillfully written and interesting story such as your own should have been much longer. ' Sir -- every word of my 'story' was true. I have told this to no-one but yourselves -- you, here, reading this. It really happened as I said it did, right down to the very words that came out of Doctor Morgantaler's mouth as he slammed the condoms onto my chest. The flowers in the waiting room; the minister who condemned me to hell -- they were real. What I didn't mention was how uncommonly kind the clinic workers were, compassionate in a way I have never before or since seen in a health-care setting. In retrospect, I believe they knew the regret that would haunt many of their patients, perhaps for the rest of their lives, and wanted somehow to offset the future bad memory with an imprint of kindness. I have no idea what they did with all those flowers, but I do know that when the clinic was demolished, the convenience store down the street scaled way back on their potted plant inventory. I suspect I am not the only woman who experienced an abortion at the Morgantaler clinic in this way; there are many of us who went through those doors, and many who laid flowers at those same doors years later. I guess these few postings of mine here were just an attempt to reach out to those women -- to say: I understand. I was there too.
  18. Scary Fundamentalist from Canada writes: Charlotte Creamer from Halifax, Canada writes: I got pregnant from a two-week fling back in 1989. I considered the 'thing' growing in me to be nothing more than a tumor that needed to be removed.

    Charlotte, don't forget that you and I were both 'tumors' at one point.
  19. Philip McRae from Vancouver, Canada writes: It's not a TUMA!
  20. Robin Smythe from Toronto, Canada writes: I'm glad to finally hear something other than abortion-regret stories. Even though many women feel some sense of loss after an abortion, there are obviously women who feel nothing of the sort. These women are almost never heard from. The impression most people get about abortion is that it's something inevitably traumatizing, but the fact is that every woman reacts differently. Abortion should not be defined as something always tainted with pain and regret. It's about time this diversity is reflected in the stories we read and hear. It seems like these abortion-pain stories are the most popular because they help excuse abortions to those who are against them, by showing women who have had them being emotionally punished.
  21. David any from Rico!, Canada writes: Tyler Williams...What Are you Gettin'at? Of course I got more cliches. Lots more! Thats why they are called cliches. Don't you use cliches in Seattle? No just NUCLEAR SUBS! I think you should use one of them innuendo. I wonder why more descriptive words for language aren't written in American. Like instead of innuendo one might have said 'Six Gun'. Could you possibly use any more more tired 'SIX GUNS' in your post? Yup I could partner . Yup I could.
  22. Jay H from Canada writes: Charlotte Creamer, I found your story as honest as I did incredibly moving. Having been to a clinic myself to accompany my wife, I know of the amazing kindness from the staff you speak of. My blood boils to levels previously unknown when people insult your memory by calling your story 'fictional'. However, I'll reserve my own immaturity for another time. My wife and I desperately wanted a child...and still do. My wife suffers from Lupus...a nasty illness to be sure, but not one that prevents a woman from having a baby. Much to our joy we discovered one day that we were going to have a baby. That is when things started to go wrong. My wife reported to me that she was not feeling right. Shortness of breath, inflammation in the general area of the lungs, etc. The doctors discovered that she had pneumonia...and it was getting bad fast. The fact that she has lupus only complicated matters further and the hospital wisely decided to put her in intensive care. My wife and unborn child suffered severe oxygen deprivation and to put it bluntly, no one was sure if she, or the baby would pull through. Even if they did...what about the effects on the baby? Again, no one could be sure. No one understands the kind of lupus my wife has quite like I do. I knew this pregnancy would be over once she was released from the hospital. You see, the pneumonia refused to go away...it plagued her even after the 3week hospital visit. I never dreamed that I would be part of an abortion, though I was always 'pro-choice'. My wife came to her decision on her own. The staff as I mentioned were absolutely incredible. The pneumonia left shortly after our loss and her health improved almost immediately. I have no regrets of our decision, though my wife still doubts herself to this day. Ms. Creamer, thank you for your story for it clearly shows the kind of person Morgentaler is. Fighting the system, yet trying to teach responsibility at the same time. Couldn't care less what others think of him
  23. M M from SK, Canada writes: The really sad part of this whole debate is that it is a conflict between feminism (however you want to define that) and personal responsibility. Feminism (and I thank the movement) provided women with many more choices - however it seemed to forget that choices come with responsibilities. I am a woman of 52 who grew up during time when abortion was not easily available and women's roles and opportuntities were restricted. However along with the opportuntities (and that includes sexual freedom), why are women not taking responsibility for their own bodies, BEFORE THEY GET PREGNANT. You can have a really good and active sex life without gettting pregnant - but you do need to assume responsibility for doing so - from knowing when your fertile time is, to taking appropriate contriception methods (and there are many more than the pill). Instead we have attached ourselves to abortion as our RIGHT - and no matter how you justify abortion - life dies. That is a tradegy. And yet you talk to young women today and they are clueless about not getting pregnant. How sad.
  24. Templeton Jones from Windsor, Canada writes: I fail to see how a dying society can honour with such distinction a man who contributed to the decline in our nations fertility. Canadian women on average produce 1.7 children during their entire reproductive lives, well below replacement. The Ontario average is lower: 1.5 or 1.4 Demographers tell us that once a society tips to below 1.3 the society is doomed to extinction. And once a society hits 1.0 it means the population is cut in half every generation. Of course the antidote to this concern is our lucrative immigration policy. We bring i thousands and thousands of new citizens every year. But where are they coming from and what values do they bring with them? Yes, at this point I'm wading into Barbara Hall land and those Kangaroo courts which don't want us Canadians to talk openly about specific situations. In Britain a greater number of,'let's accommodate everyone to the nth degree' types are now saying that Britain can exist with a degree of Sharia law. Well, Britain like Germany, like France, like Spain, like Russia, like Italy, like Greece, has a huge demographic problem and the population is ripe to be replaced. But Canada is even riper. If assimilation was a safe bet, no one should be the least concerned. But what if the new comers have such powerful commitment mechanisms that their cultural mores remain intact for another 1 000 years? And what happens once these new thinkers become the rilling class? Who has the most to loose? If such was to occur we would no longer be debating right to life issues because Morgantaller and his following would again be in violation of the law, and I'm certain the violater would suffer a consequence far far greater than the 'namby bamby' consequence experienced today. it seems far fetched and would be if the demographic reality wasn't so real. I fail to see how awarding Morgantaller with such distinction can mean anything else but pathos.
  25. The Human Body Is Amazing from Overhere, Canada writes: I think we all should just get over ourselves are realize we are ending life that just barely got started.
    Of course there would be a lot of contemplation and thought going down because in our deepest conscious we realize we are committing an act we know is wrong.
    Please realize this in no answer. You WILL ALWAYS regret it.
    How sad that the only thing we are really trusted with (a life at its most vulnerable state), is up for discussion.
  26. pete peters from Canada writes: Two points on this topic. It is stunning to learn from the article that in Canada, a wealthy country with unlimited access to all forms of birth control, almost one in four pregnancies is terminated by abortion.

    And if the writer doesn't understand why most women who abort don't want to talk about it, perhaps she should consider the obvious. They choose silence out of a vistigial sense of decency. Destroying the life of another human is never ennobling.
  27. Shila Murley from Toronto, Canada writes: One reason for not speaking out is people like 'The Human Body is amazing' person, who doesn't give their name, makes sweeping generalizations and judgements. I would have no issues with discussing the abortion I had when I was 22 if it weren't for fear of being verbally attacked by someone that that. I forced myself to read the comments in this section only because I agree with Cate Cochran that we should talk about this topic more, bring it out into the open. I really don't want to hear about the opinions of others who have not been through the procedure themselves. Everyone seems to have a stong opinion on this topic. I honestly have no regrets, only relief that I was able to further pursue my education, travel and career goals. I don't believe I destroyed another life. I'm happy to have a way to publically thank Dr Morgantaler for everything he has been through. I couldn't be happier to see him recieve the Order of Canada.
  28. A M from Canada writes: Though I regret that it was necessary, I do not regret getting my abortion. Not for one second.

    A message to the anti-choicers posting on this thread: If you oppose abortion, DON'T GET ONE. But stop trying to restrict the rights of others because you happen to disagree with them.
  29. S J from Canada writes: I am so thankful that I live in a country where I have the right to choose, and have access to a safe place to have an abortion. I shudder to think of the women who were butchered and who died because of illegal abortions. I had an abortion in 2003, and I have never once regretted it, not for a minute, and I knew I was doing exactly the right thing. Everyone in the clinic was so supportive and kind. Morgantaler said "Every child born should be a wanted child" and I can't agree more. I don't think people realize how ignorant and just plain silly it is to argue the adoption angle... GET REAL! Do you really think that never occured to us, that we didn't think about it?! That's just not always a viable option for some of us (myself included). Feel free to write all the hateful posts you want, insult me, spew your venom, you cannot hurt me, and it only shows you for the self-righteous, nasty people you are. I must say, I find it funny how all too often it is these same hateful people who make personal attacks on women who've had abortions (part of why it's not talked about) who go on tirades about single mothers, and express outrage at social services paid for by their tax dollars. So, when you're up on your high horse, nose in the air, smug and thinking you're better than a woman who terminated her pregnancy, ask yourself, would you yourself be willing to help? I think not.
  30. The Work Farce from Canada writes: Why not just talk about it? Hypocrisy, convenience, comfort, conformity, dishonesty, guilt and cowardice, to name a few reasons. People love being liberated but don't like to acknowledge who and how they were liberated. There are many social, political, cultural and economic advances made since the 1960's that the majority now take for granted as their rights - without acknowledging the risks, the hard work, the heavy lifting, the enmity suffered by those who advocated and practiced them ahead of their time. Honesty is the best policy. Openness should work for most people most of the time - if we actually lived in a free and tolerate society. That's not to say women should go around bragging about their abortions - just not to hide them, just not to criticize those who have them, just not to let the liberators like Dr. Morgentaler go on being persecuted.
  31. Bob Cajun from the glorious nation of coboconk, Canada writes: A M from Canada writes: Though I regret that it was necessary, I do not regret getting my abortion. Not for one second.

    A message to the anti-choicers posting on this thread: If you oppose abortion, DON'T GET ONE. But stop trying to restrict the rights of others because you happen to disagree with them.

    A message to PRO-ABORTS, don't ridicule the concept that single parents "cannot" make it in this society or that we cannot single handily raise great kids and succeed against the odds. People have enough insecurity issues without you bunch going on about how "ill-timed" and "unprepared" somebody is for parenthood. Guess what? (A) Nobody is ever prepared (B) A lot can happen in 9 months (C) There are a lot more resources out there to help than you think
  32. Bob Cajun from the glorious nation of coboconk, Canada writes: blah, i need a timmy's
  33. Templeton Jones from Windsor, Canada writes:

    And society which condones, promotes or rewards the killing of it's young, is truly the epitome of pathos.
  34. Templeton Jones from Windsor, Canada writes:

    But stop trying to restrict the rights of others
    -------------------

    What are rights? Little more than the sanctioning of a behavior or a privilege by the state. In the U.S. they have the right to bear arms. In Muslim nations they have the right to practice Sharia law, including an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. In Canada we have the right to establish a deleterious relationship with the biosphere-on a per capita basis Canadians produce more green house gas than Americans. Rights should never be equated with the moral high ground.
  35. Anthony B from Maritimes, Canada writes: I suspect that if men (not women) were the ones who became pregnant, the "abortion debate" would be a non-starter. It would be just another surgical procedure, like vasectomies and haemorrhoidectomies. Not to trivialise the emotional turmoil associated with the termination of a fetus, but men just wouldn't tolerate any interference in what they would consider "nobody else's business."

    Come to think of it, if men were the ones who became pregnant, there would be fewer conceptions.
  36. Troubled Youth from Everywhere, Canada writes: Anthony B, yes men are ugly bastards with no moral compunction and would with out hesitation kill their own children with out blinking or would deny their mates who are physical as well as emotional participants [like some women] zero involvement and would suggest that it's not their issue or right to even comment. You must be one of these new males who have adopted feminism and moral equivalence as your political sexist think.
  37. Philip McRae from Vancouver, Canada writes: Now, now, Troubled Youth, perhaps Anthony's crowd have decided a vasectomy suits their reproductive needs, and suffer greatly frequent removal of hemorrhoids.
  38. The Human Body Is Amazing from Overhere, Canada writes: To the people who think they don't regret ending their child's life, your life isn't over yet either.
    I cannot help but to believe that your conscious will surface before your time passes.
  39. S J from Canada writes: You are wrong, human. Also, what do you do once you get off your soapbox? What do you do to help, other than spout off your self-righteous BS about conscious? You come off very smug and sanctimonious- do you donate, or volunteer at an social service agencies where women who aren't in a position to carry their pregnancy can go? Have you adopted any child?
  40. S J from Canada writes: "children", not "child". Pardon the typo- unlike The Human Body is Amazing, I am not perfect.
  41. GlynnMhor of Skywall from Canada writes: The article asks 'why not just talk about it?', but one might as well ask, 'why talk about it?' We could take all sorts of time to talk about menstruation, too, but hardly anybody does so in day-to-day conversations.
  42. Eric of Windsor from Canada writes: I find it interesting how in the Old Testament stories of the Bible where babies and young children were murdered, people are shocked and horrified. Yet just because you can't hold the unborn or see their faces, touch them, it becomes completely OK in todays society for people to murder them. Yes there are good life saving reasons for women to need abortions but to make it a convenience motivated choice is plane insanity. This reflects the decline of the responsibility, moral obligation and integrity of our society. Rights have trumped responsibility and the price we pay today is ......well look around at the "Progress".
  43. j w from Toronto, Canada writes: Years ago I was fortunate enough to meet Dr. Morgentaler (not in his clinic). The anguish in his face and voice as he told of his reasons to begin to perform abortions would break your heart. He could no longer face the agony of being called to attend a woman dying of a backstreet abortion, and know he could not save her. Having lost a friend in that fashion when I was a teen I could understnd why he advocted legal abortion. Desperate women will try just about anything, illegal surgery, coat-hangers, poison drinks like the one that killed a friend of my mother. Places where abortion is illegal have an enromous mortality rate for women of child-bearing years, they die of bungled abortions. I concieved a Downs pregnancy, which I elected to abort. I still believe it was the correct decision although it was the worst experience of my life - bar none. Women do not talk of thier abortions becasue it is a painful, private decision. It is not a form of birth control, it has nothing to do with 'reproductive rights' or control over ones own body. When one becomes pregnant one has no control over ones body, the pregnancy takes over. An abortion does not erase the pregnancy, it just ends it. Any pregnancy, however brief, leaves a permanent change in your body. It also leaves a permanent change in your spirit, no one avoids the 'might-have-beens", wondering what life would have been like had the decision to abort not been made. Anyone who can make the decision to end a pregnancy with ease and lighness of heart and discuss it as if it were of no more import than wart removal should consider sterilization. Abortion is always a life and death decision. Sometimes it is the only feasible solution, but it is not a 'right', it is a choice.
  44. Charlotte Creamer from Halifax, Canada writes: I am both pro-choice and anti-abortion. If someone came to me for advice on whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, I would, based on my own experience, counsel her not to do it. But I would never advocate taking away an individual's right to choose. And I would never force my opinion on anyone who didn't ask. The only reason I spoke out here was because I felt invited to speak out; we were all invited to. I have not become involved with the pro-life movement because I believe their methods are counter-productive to their cause. But that's just my opinion, based on my own personal experience. And though I used to sport a "pro-choice" pin, I don't anymore, because that movement essentially stands for pro-abortion, and again, based on my own experience, I can't support that, either. Some people may think I'm a hypocrite or a fence-sitter, and it's their right to think that. But I'm really just a woman who once chose to do something she still regrets in the deepest core of her being, and I thought some of you out there might need to hear that.
  45. Pamela Achurch from Peterborough, On, Canada writes: Where do the self righteous, arrogant pro lifer's get the nerve to assume they know what is best for every woman who gets pregnant? I do not believe that I am so smart that I can make life decisions for pregnant girls and women. Abortion is only one of the options available. No one is forced to have an abortion. It is a very private and personal decision. I salute Dr. Morgentaler. He is a very caring and courageous man. Those of us who remember the fight for woman's rights also know we have to be vigilant to protect them from fanatical people who have a high need to control others.
  46. bethany middleton from Canada writes: MM, yes, women can take responsibility for birth control, but birth control fails. Even the most 'secure' forms of birth control, like getting one's tubes tied, fail (this happened to a neighbour). And men have an equal say in this. How many men have told their wives/partners that they refuse to wear a condom, claiming that it reduces sensation. What are they going to do if their partner becomes pregnant? stick around? And if they don't, what do they expect will happen? Women have always had abortions and will always have them. Those that say it should be outlawed have their heads in the sand and the blood of thousands of women on their hands. women will contnue to get abortions even if they're illegal. How many women suffering from botched abortions did Morgentaler help? Countless numbers. They are alive because of what he did. Scenario #1: Another pregnancy in my life would kill me. Literally. Am I going to sacrifice my sex life with my long term partner just so I make sure that I'll never ever get pregnant again? No. I'll do my best with birth control, but if it fails, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'll be presenting myself at a clinic/hospital for an abortion. No question. Scenario #2. My family is complete. I adore my children but I can't imagine having another child; we coudn't support another child, emotionally or psychologically (though i imagine we could potentially make it work financially). I'll do my best with birth control, but if it fails, I'll have an abortion. No question. Both scenarios are true in my life. I've never had to make that choice. And I don't imagine that it would be an easy choice to make. That doesn't negate the rightness of the choice given my situation and my position in life right now. thank you Charlotte Creamer, you've provided a whole new layer of complexity into Morgentaler's character, a layer that reveals far more than the 'babykiller' moniker most often attached to his name.
  47. Honest Thought from Canada writes: In response to A M's comment - "If you oppose abortion, DON'T GET ONE. But stop trying to restrict the rights of others because you happen to disagree with them."

    You cannot honestly expect someone who believes that abortion is murder to simply stay silent. How would you respond if a rapist or pedophile told you to mind your own business? Abortion is legal in Canada, but those who oppose the act of abortion have every right to voice their opposition.
  48. Paul Illinois from Toronto, Canada writes: Does anyone know of a support group for women who have had an abortion? The article was very positive in pointing out silence is not the answer, but I did not spot any reference to support groups. Do they exist? Even one?
  49. S J from Toronto, Canada writes: Paul, there are numerous sources of support both prior to, and after an abortion. I was provided with quite a long list of phone numbers, addresses and websites, and there are staff at the clinic I went to there to offer assistance, if it is needed.

    I am tempted to post some of the websites on here, but given the vitriolic posts on this and other G&M boards, I won't, as I do not want to open these caring people up to abuse. However, yes, there are literally dozens of resources.
  50. Troubled Youth from Everywhere, Canada writes: Seems to me judging from some of the pro-abortion posts that the vitriolic posts on this subject walk a two way street and are equally abusive. Which is why the suibject hardly every gets a decent airing. Both of the extremes resort to pejorative name calling and hostile accusations. Those who are caring decent people relate and seek consensus on the issues that dominate their lives as a couple. They don't reach decisions independently nor are left to shoulder the physical and emotional burden alone. In my experience those who have broken their relationships carry a hostility as do the moralist attack dogs. A woman alone may want to chose an abortion and I would never give it much thought. It would seem a reasonable decision to me. The couples that go in for abortions are the ones I have difficulty with, as a person speaking for myself. That's a bit hard to understand.
  51. jack Bauer from Canada writes: so selfish..all about the womans rights, poor fetus, he has no rights, no future....why because someone is too vain, inconvenienced, ashamed to give 9 months to let the baby live, what is 9 months comapred to a lifetime, after all it was not the fetus's fault ...that was yours
  52. S J from Canada writes: Grow up, "jack"! It's not always a case of vanity/shame/selfishness or inconvenience, not that it should matter, since women aren't in a position to justify their choice to you or anyone else.

    It's not always a case of it being someone's "fault". If you feel the need to blame someone, remember that it takes two.
  53. The Work Farce from Canada writes: My, my, the times they are a changin'. The young and the restless became the middle aged and the married - with children. Sanctified by church, holy matrimony and family values, they suddenly believe abortion is murder. The same soccer moms , however, don't mind slaughtering tens of thousands in Afghanistan (So that Afghan women can have the same rights they do!) They're all set, positioned to bash the living daylights out of the new young and restless. They had their cake and they ate it. Now they want to deprive others of the same pleasure. Have they suddenly found God, become moral, seen the light? More likely, burdened by three kids and the two jobs needed to support them, they don't want others to have any fun.
  54. C J from Canada writes: Each person is 100% entitled to make "the right choice for themselves" in anything in life regardless of what anyone else says or believes. Live for yourself and create the life that you want. Those who impose their opinions with their lips flapping in the wind would probably be silenced if they found themselves in the exact same situation.
  55. jack Bauer from Canada writes: SJ ..its certainly not the fault of the fetus...but he/she pays and is denied existence out of selfishness.. ..the courts have ruled that it is the womans body and her decision...funny you use the phrase grow up...as if that is essential but it is ultimately what you deny the fetus?
  56. S J from Canada writes: Hey "jack" get this through your head: it's not always a case of "selfishness". Who are you to say that?!
  57. K L from Canada writes: This topic is rarely discussed and it is a shame. The article speaks of stigma and that is what this comment thread reeks of. I guess I would have to say that I am pro-choice, even if I feel that I could not myself have an abortion -- though I must emphatically say that I have never had one and therefore have NO idea what my decision would be in that moment. I have family members who have had an abortion and have only shared that information with a select few people. The majority of my family has no idea that they have a relative that has had one. For one in particular she made an informed, rational decision about the way she wanted her life to go. She was young, and says that she could barely take care of herself how could she take care of another? She was not emotionally ready to have a child, and so she elected to have an abortion. The clinic she went to gave her a sonogram of her baby, which she still has to this day. She does not forget, but she does not REGRET either. In this case I believe I can finally put to rest this "selfishness" aspect that Jack keeps bringing into this conversation, for she never thought of herself during this decision, she thought of her future child and what life she could offer them. She decided her children deserve better, when and if she decides to have them. Morgantaller SHOULD get the order of Canada, and I am ashamed of the previous winners who have elected to give theirs back simply because Canada chose to acknowledge someone who has saved so many Canadian lives. Oh.. and kudos to the guy who wrote that if it were men having babies there would be no issue at all because they would do what they wanted and it was none of anyone elses business.

    Additionally I have to address "Honest thought" -- can I expect someone who believes abortion is murder to stay quiet? No. Can I expect them to respect the opinions of others? I most certainly can, and sadly most of them don't.
  58. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: I'd like to hear the health minister justify why so many women are forced to drive to Buffalo for RU486, the abortion pill. Subjecting women of childbearing age to invasive abortions is unsafe, unethical, wasteful, unprofessional and just plain scandalous. But the fact is that Canadian women are prey to excessive gynecological surgeries all of the time. I'd like to see a breakdown between the numbers of surgeries ordered by male and female gynycologists because one of the key factors between those who get surgery and those who don't is the gender of the doctor reccommending it. Any women faced with any surgical question, should always seek a second opinion from a female professional. The black dog of predatory patriarchy is still with us in all of its horrific disguises. Caveat D'emptor applies in medicine as in all other industries. And medicine is a big, big industry, perhaps our biggest. And why isn't the media writing about this story? About RU486? About high gynecological surgical rates in the Maritimes? About predatory surgery for profit, as opposed to medical need? About abortions that should be pharmocological and not surgical? About excessive hysterectomies? About written informed consent which would ensure that women received RU486 instead of abortions wherever it was feasible, and women only received surgery when necessary as oppsoed to profitable for the doctor. We've played bumpkis for far too long.
  59. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: I'd like to know what happens to women who have abortions. I have noticed that many women who lived with boyfriends in the 1970s and 1980s never married, although co-habitaiton before marriage is now the norm even those marriage rates are falling. Accordingly, I would like to know how many single women who have had abortions go on to marry and have children, how many don't and how thise compares with women who never had abortions. This information is important for understanding this very complex issue. Although I never faced such a choice, typically women produce about 230 eggs during childbearing years, of which half would never be viable if fertilized, yet a full 115 eggs might well be. As most women will only raise one to three children out of the 115 viable eggs, I'm convinced that it behooves every woman to choose on behalf of herself, her family, society and the children she does have, to ensure that those few children she bears are the healthiest eggs she has and that they will be born into the best familial situation that she can secure. It makes no sense to choose to bear either an ill child or a child under poor circumstances on the basis of random events. Abortion is a terrible decision to be faced with and to make, but it truly is sometimes the wise choice.
  60. S J from Canada writes: Hi Emma,
    Could you please elaborate on why it is relivant/important whether women who've had abortions go on to have children and/or get married? I don't see how that relates to anything.
    Thanks!
  61. jack Bauer from Canada writes: SJ.....to deny existence is the ultimate act of selfishness, no its not illegal and you have the liberal masses on your side, but what ever distress a mother goes through will never compare to the destruction of potential and what ifs. You go on trying to convince yourself its ok, or acceptable you will find support from like minded folks. I highly suspect those who have committed this act will have an uneasy passing into the next life....I mean what if there is an after life?
  62. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: Hi SJ. I think it is important to consider the histories of women who undergo abortions as a way of understanding the true meaning of the procedure for them and for society. As most of these women are married, we need to ask if the marriages endure more or less often than the general trends. For singles, it is very important to ask how the abortion might or might not affect the paths of their lives, such as whether they marry or not, as opposed to similar women who never become pregnant or who place the child for adoption or choose to keep it. How does poverty play out here? There are many, many crucial questions, such as whether the availablility of abortion results in more wanted children and less neglect, abuse and failed parenting. I don't favour putting abortion on trial as I suspect it has a positive impact on society, but I strongly favour study to understand its true role and effects, both positive and negative.
  63. Mi Mo from Canada writes: Most women don't discuss their abortions, and most also don't discuss miscarriages. There may be shame, regret, sorrow, but mostly IT'S PERSONAL. No one else needs to know about the state of my uterus. Or kidneys, or liver, come to that.

    I was ambivalent about abortion until my own, much-desired pregnancy. It was hard, it seemed to last forever. And then the baby was born and things got even harder! I was lucky to have a great, supportive, helpful spouse, a pretty good job, and a deep desire to have children. Pro-Choice forever!

    And I would like to see all those anti-abortionists insist on shared responsibility for any pregnancy. Obviously we cannot make men share in the physical pain/trauma/discomfort. But let's have mandatory DNA testing so that fathers can always be identified. Let's have automatic deductions from any and all money a man makes to support any children he might have. Biology doesn't give us much freedom of choice, so the law should.
  64. Eat Your Weedies from Canada writes: You know why people don't talk about it? Because in the pit of their hearts they know they have done something truly destructive, evil. You can convince the whole world of whatever you like but at the end of the day that dead baby haunts you.
  65. Eat Your Weedies from Canada writes: I find it funny to read so many comments denying that the choice to have an abortion is a selfish one. What about the self you are killing? Just because you don't take the time to see them or hear them doesn't mean they wouldn't fight for their lives. Big bullies are all of you aborters.
  66. Moe Unting from Calgary, Canada writes: People need to talk about their experiences with this. It is one thing to persuade someone contemplating an abortion, but once the procedure is done, I think feelings need to be sorted out through forgiveness and acceptance.
  67. Chrissy Simon from Canada writes: SJ, you mention numerous support groups for women who've had abortions. Why would someone need a support group just because she's had an unwanted clump of cells removed? Are there also support groups for people who've had hairy moles or in-grown toenails removed?
  68. K L from Guelph, Canada writes: Chrissy Simon -- first of all, let's think about this rationally instead of trying to make obtuse arguments. Is having an ingrown toenail removed a scary procedure? Are your friends and family going to think badly of you for having it done? Is the public going to call you a murderer for having it done? Are there "anti ingrown toe-nail removal" groups lined up in front of your doctors office to bar your entry to have it removed? NO. And this is the stigma we speak of. Secondly-- are there support groups for people who have organs removed? Yes. Are there support groups for those who have been unfortunate enough to lose body parts to cancer, such as testicles or breasts? Yes. These are also very personal events in someone's life and yet they are spoken about -- are they different circumstances? Yes, one is survival from a terrifying disease that kills many people each day, let alone each year. But one must remember that child birth isn't an easy thing either, and in the past it was the number one killer of women. So pardon me if I think that women should be able to decide that they are not willing to risk their own life (be it physical or emotional) to have a child, and more so for those women who don't want to risk the CHILD'S life by bringing it into a world where they are not financially, emotionally or physically capable of caring for it.

    And as for those of you who are commenting on the spiritual state of those who choose to have an abortion -- that is between THEM AND GOD... keep your bloody nose out of it. Who the hell are you to tell them they're going to hell?
  69. jack Bauer from Canada writes: Its not natural for a mother to think in terms of the risk of dying over bearing a child...yet another lame arguement in the defense of denying the existance of life....as for finances, emotions, do these things really justify denying existance......they seem trivial when compared don't you think?
  70. n m from Canada writes: jack Bauer, why don't you just come out and say it. The life of a fetus is more important to you than the life of an adult woman. Indeed, she should even be willing to risk death for it. Tell me jack, why is that? I think you're right when you say you care about human life. The only thing is, you don't think that women are human. Perhaps that is why you think it is better for a woman to die for a fetus. With its 1 in 2 odds of being a male, at best you will end up with the birth of a full human, and at worst you have mitigated the loss of the pregnant woman with another replaceable incubator.
  71. jack Bauer from Canada writes: I suppose I should not be overly concerned maybe in the big picture it is natures way of weeding out the week, selfish, socially and morally corrupt and destructive DNA from the human race?
  72. S H from Ontario, Canada writes: I had an abortion. I don't regret it either. I DO regret that my partner at the time and I were stupid enough to put ourselves in this position though.

    It was 1998, I was 20 (almost 21), in a new relationship. I had no education, made a paltry $17k a year, lived in my parent's basement and wasn't ready to sacrifice my future for an unplanned pregnancy. Selfish? You bet, but no more selfish than those telling me I should keep the baby.

    Having an abortion was the worst and best decision I've ever made. In the 10 years since that day I've pursued an education, furthered my career and married someone I love deeply and plan on having a family with. I've managed to succeed in a way I wouldn't have been able to had I continued with the pregnancy. As for the 'God' issue, if there is a God, then It and I will discuss my failings on my day of reckoning. Until then I'll continue to be the best person I can be.

    I had an abortion and I'm not ashamed.
  73. D N M from Canada writes: n m from Canada writes:" jack Bauer, why don't you just come out and say it. The life of a fetus is more important to you than the life of an adult woman. Indeed, she should even be willing to risk death for it. Tell me jack, why is that? I think you're right when you say you care about human life. The only thing is, you don't think that women are human. Perhaps that is why you think it is better for a woman to die for a fetus. With its 1 in 2 odds of being a male, at best you will end up with the birth of a full human, and at worst you have mitigated the loss of the pregnant woman with another replaceable incubator. " Well said nm. George Carlin, may he r.i.p., was a great comedian that told things as they are realistically, once alluded to this, if I may paraphrase him : "Pro-life is not pro-life, it's anti-woman, plain and simple. They don't like 'em. They feel the primary role of a woman is to function as a brood mare for the state...." Smart man. This is a female issue. The men "make the deposit", then their part in the birth process is over. The women must do all the work and endure all the pain. While the father may be asked his opinion on the matter, however, all others should stay out of it because, in the end, the woman is alone in the pregnancy and the decision whether or not to bring it to term. What a great article. Well done Cate Cochran.
  74. Jack Bauer from Canada writes: DNM Wow assuming a woman is a willing partner all things should be equal. Women rightly so should have equality, yet in this case you do not care to consider the father as an equal partner. You can't have it both ways...and if your so shallow to believe a normal man considers woman breeding stock than I assume you are as intolerant as you are boring...DNM (Don't need men) . I suggest you strongly consider becoming a lesbian...and we really want to live or lives based on the writings of George Carlin..no wonder your so messed.
  75. D N M from Canada writes: Jack Bauer: Where in my post did I say I didn't(women didn't) need men? We of course need the "deposit", can't make a baby without one. But until men(you) risk YOUR life (the childbirth death rate is NOT at 0 % yet) and bleed in pain to birth it, men (you) should have, and let me make this clear, ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to FORCE any woman to go through with it. HER choice, plain and simple. I would hope and pray she chooses life (as, ironically, I am pro-birth for myself, I couldn't bring myself to have an abortion) but I would never dream of imposing my beliefs on another individual's right to self-determination. Men, and you, are just going to have to learn to live with the fact that you're not are owners, judges or executioners anymore. That time has gone. (btw I'm sitting here laughing that you would call me boring yet take the time to reply to my "boring post" I'm not messed Jack, I'm very rational and passionate, I just see things clearly and realistically and will always speak up for what's right, in this case, the right of a woman to be self-determinate, i.e. not a slave. And my husband loves this passion I exude so much we've been happily married for almost 14 years (longer than most of today's marriages), and still brings me flowers on his way home from work. I must be doing something right :P ). This bears repeating: "Pro-life is not pro-life. It's anti-Woman, plain and simple. They don't like 'em. They feel the primary role of a woman is to function as a brood mare for the state." - George Carlin Many of us, including men like my husband who completely agrees with me and Mr. Carlin's assessment on pro-lifers, see through you woman haters VERY clearly.
  76. D N M from Canada writes: Jack Bauer:

    Just to add, I couldn't become a lesbian, I wasn't born wired that way.