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South Africa celebrates Mandela's 90th birthday

CELEAN JACOBSON

The Associated Press

Latest comment posted at 10:22 AM EST 18/07/08

Wealthy should share riches with the poor, country's first post-apartheid president says in birthday message ...Read the full article

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  1. Rusty Waters from Canada writes: Mandela, the greatest of great men and women.
  2. Tim Bryson from Claresholm, AB., Canada writes: And to think that this giant of a man was considered a terrorist by his opponents in South Africa and the USA.
  3. Carl Baldin from Canada writes: A good man....but his ANC party has had 12 years to 'redistribute from the rich to the poor' and has failed. The poor must be given opportunities, however, if many South African's want the 'western lifestyle' and to get out of poverty, start with having 2 children instead of 7 to 10 (and one wife rather than 4)!

    The social-economic issues must first be addressed before poverty can be dealt with.
  4. Cognitively Cogitative from Canada writes: He could be really effective if he spoke out against the brutal Mugabe regime.
  5. kevin o'connor from Toronto, Canada writes: A leader with two great achievements: taking down apartheid and presiding over a peaceful transition to majority rule. Monumental. So many leaders of revolutions are disasters in power because the skillset and mindset for success are so different in each role. A great, great man. Happy Birthday!
  6. Big Wayne Kerr from Kumbaya, Canada writes: Too bad Moscow and Havana can't share in the celebration.
  7. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: The lefties are desperate for African 'post-clonial heroes'. Unfortunately, 50 yrs after the withdrawal of the collapse of the British, French, etc. empires, there's precious little in terms of economic, poltical, etc. advancement in Africa. The 60s 'revolutionaries' turned into dictators.

    Mandela? A romanticized terrorist whose legacy will be the peaceful transition to a one party failed state. Marxists dwell on a few pillars of thought: redistribution/expropriation, one-party-fits-all, terror to gain power, terror to keep power.
  8. Mani Pulated from Bymedia, Canada writes: Rich nations give to poor countries? Maybe on managed individual projects, but not to their corrupt leadership.
  9. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: Well said, Peter Bojkov from Vaughan. Those who idolize Mandela also likely worship Castro. Having been to South Africa and talked to many of the poor blacks, many of them say they are worse off now then ever before. But the lefties continue to worship at the Marxist altar.
  10. S R from london london, Canada writes: Barely a hundred years ago English Canada sent its sons to South Africa to fight for the British empire.

    Not entirely shocking: after all, where do you think white 'South Africa' got the idea of a native reserve from?

    State violence started well before people read Marx.
  11. Vivaldo Latoche from Ottawa, Canada writes: What a great 'ICON' the present world has in Mandela. I wish we had more Mandelas in the world today, but especially in the African continent.

    In the African continent, the present day republics were set up free in the last part of the 20th century, but today, the oppression by their own people is worst than under their former colonizers.

    Obviousley, the African dictators have not taken proper lessons from
    that great man, NELSON MANDELA. May President Mandela have a great 90th birthday.
  12. Kim Philby from Ottawa, Canada writes: While his message - the rich should share the riches with the poor - is a bit simplistic, there's an element of logic to it. The more people who are lifted out of poverty, who are given a chance at an education and a job, the more people there will be to participate in a meaningful way in the economy. That can only be good news for the rich, who will have an increasingly larger population base able to purchase their goods and services.

    And who knows what scientific, technological, medical or artistic achievements might come from all those additional people getting a foot in the door. If human resources are a country's most valuable resource, let's stop throwing away that valuable resource because of poverty.
  13. Tim Bryson from Claresholm, AB., Canada writes: Peter Bojkov...you must work for the State Department, or perhaps you once worked for Jesse Helms...having said that, its common knowledge that the ANC was a political party until the Sharpville Massacre. When peaceful calls for justice were met with lethal force, is it any wonder that Mandela called for the use of force to end the apartheid system. This would be similar to the actions of the American colonists in 1774, who were labelled terrorists by Britain at that time. As for your assertions...there is a differnence between redistribution and expropriation. All governments redistribute wealth through the tax system. Mandela was not calling for expropriation. 'Terror to gain power'?? Mandela had refused to accept release from prison as long as the apartheid system was in place. FW DeKlerk saw that having him die in jail was a losing propostion, hence the entry into negotiations. Can you site one example of terror tactics being used by Mandela during this time? As for his assention to power, he was elected in South Africa's first ever free election. There was even a paper trail and the manual counting of ballots. 'Terror to keep power'??...again, where is your evidence? He stepped down after one term. How is that 'terror to keep power'? Given the destruction wrought upon African societies by the trans-Atlantic slave trade, colonialism ('The White Man's Burden', King Leopold, Apartheid...) and Africa's dependence on western institutions such as the World Bank and the IMF, I am laying a fair bit of Africa's condition at the feet of the imperial powers and their institution descendants. Is it any wonder that much of Africa is a basket case?
  14. Maggie Now from Canada writes: Tim Bryson from Claresholm, AB., Canada writes: And to think that this giant of a man was considered a terrorist by his opponents in South Africa and the USA.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    And the shame of it is Mandela was just taking off the US terrorist watch list this past Tuesday!
  15. Hugo Hall from Calgary, Canada writes: Regardless of the flaws evident in the current ANC leadership, past skeletons in the closet and its well-meaning but misguided philosophies, there is no doubt that Mr. Mandela's courage and principled stand against apartheid helped end that unfortunate chapter in South Africa's history.
  16. A Canadian from Cole Harbour, Canada writes: Nelson Mandela celebrated his 90th birthday Friday by calling on the wealthy to share with the poor

    Next flash, we have been doing this for many years now and billions of dollars transferred to Africa and look at them now. They are no better off and still, they ask for more. Looks like they are learning from our natives. The people in charge get richer and the poor are left to fend for themselves. I think it is time to rethink the aid programs and their usefulness.
  17. Tim Bryson from Claresholm, AB., Canada writes: Carl Baldin...other than business interests, how can it be said that China is re-colonizing Africa? Are you suggesting that business ties are a form of colonial exploitation? Sounds sort of Marxist.

    As for wanting the Europeans back in, that is a somewhat romantic view of history given Europe's history in that region. But then, a romanticized view of history is a key feature of a reactionary.

    I'm confused...
  18. S R from london london, Canada writes: American colonialists of European descent revolt against the King and are celebrated as the fathers of North American capitalism.

    Black Africans revolt against systematic state violence engineered by the South African white minority and their leader, Mandela, jailed for life, is branded a terrorist.

    Canada may yet prove to be a multicultural utopia, but this harmony still historically required state violence to place natives into reservations, the imperial state model for South Africa's apartheid.
  19. Big Wayne Kerr from Kumbaya, Canada writes: Tim Bryson 'The White Man's Burden'

    We still carry the burden:

    Take up the White Man's burden--
    And reap his old reward:
    The blame of those ye better,
    The hate of those ye guard.
  20. Tim Bryson from Claresholm, AB., Canada writes: A Canadian from Cole Harbour...the amount of money 'transferred' from the west to Africa is a pitance, especially compared to Georgie's Iraq adventure.

    It is also transferred with devastating strings attached, such as school fees and the end of food subsidies. These policies, pushed by the IMF and World Bank lead to kids not being to go to school or eat.
  21. Big Wayne Kerr from Kumbaya, Canada writes: Take up the White Man's burden--
    The savage wars of peace--
    Fill full the mouth of Famine
    And bid the sickness cease;
    And when your goal is nearest
    The end for others sought,
    Watch sloth and heathen Folly
    Bring all your hopes to naught.

    Kipling had a few things right!
  22. Tim Bryson from Claresholm, AB., Canada writes: Big Wayne Kerr...are you seriuosly suggesting that European colonialism in Africa (or elsewhere) 'bettered' the subjects of colonialism?

    I wonder what Ghandi would say?
  23. Tim Bryson from Claresholm, AB., Canada writes: Kipling was an classic imperialist...typical of his time, whether that attitude was extended to Africans, Asians, or Aboriginals. Perhaps we should ask the billions of people who were the subjects of colonial rule whether they thought he 'had a few things right'.
  24. A Canadian from Cole Harbour, Canada writes: Tim Bryson from Claresholm, AB., Canada writes: A Canadian from Cole Harbour...the amount of money 'transferred' from the west to Africa is a pitance, especially compared to Georgie's Iraq adventure.

    It is also transferred with devastating strings attached, such as school fees and the end of food subsidies. These policies, pushed by the IMF and World Bank lead to kids not being to go to school or eat.
    ****************
    Billions of dollars a pitance. No doubt you also support 200 a barrel of crude and believe all problem of the world is due to G Bush. Having said that, then I guess giving more is not the solution and I stand by the last sentence on my previous post.
    'I think it is time to rethink the aid programs and their usefulness. '
  25. Big Wayne Kerr from Kumbaya, Canada writes: Tim Bryson 'I wonder what Ghandi would say?

    Ghandi would say that he was proud to be a British educated lawyer and citizen of the empire who demanded his equal rights as a citizen - as protected by that Empire. He clearly understood and appreciated what Britain brought to advance India. Ghandi was proud to help an independent India be part of the Commonwealth.

    Ghandi would say that childish little praire knee-jerk marxists have little to contribute that wasn't totally exhausted by 1970.
  26. Big Wayne Kerr from Canada writes: Tim Bryson 'attitude was extended to Africans, Asians, or Aboriginals. Perhaps we should ask the billions of people who were the subjects of colonial rule...' Some societies had yet to discover the wheel. The Wheel. Yes, it was disruptive to have centuries and centuries of human invention and knowledge arrive all at once. But the wheel couldn't be 'undiscovered' any more than any other human invention. Reality intruded, that was unavoidable, no matter how much some primitivist fantasists like to pretend.
  27. Big Wayne Kerr from Canada writes: Take up the White Man's burden-- Have done with childish days-- The lightly proferred laurel, The easy, ungrudged praise. Comes now, to search your manhood Through all the thankless years Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom, The judgment of your peers.
  28. Clive Gingell from Canada writes: 'He who robs Peter to pay Paul, will always have the support of Paul.'
  29. Kirwan Martin from Montreal, Canada writes: Cognitively Cogitative from Canada wrote: 'He could be really effective if he spoke out against the brutal Mugabe regime.'
    He did finally comment about its 'failure of leadership'. Not the roar of disapproval that many of us would have liked to hear but at least he finally said something.
    My greater concern is that many of us in the west look at these 'failures of leadership', decide that, until 'they' can put their house in order, any money sent as aid would probably be wasted (Check Mugabe's residence for example) and tend to write off Africa. I'm not sure that the extent of this reaction is appreciated in Africa.
  30. S R from london london, Canada writes: Given the violent history of white South African apartheid, it's so typical for those who benefited from white colonialism (re: Canadians) to see South Africans as lacking in something because they don't possess Western wealth, immediately after gaining sovereignty.

    What makes you think gaining self-rule isn't gratifying enough for them?

    Oh yeah, we never had to rebel or revolt. Canadians haven't had to fight 'for' anything, oh yeah, except the war against those damn Indians, who were fought in a real backhanded way, by issuing and renouncing treaties.

    Oh, but blame Mandela for being a Marxist (Marxism, invented by Europeans)
  31. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Tym Bryson, in 1961, upon its inception, Mandela became the first leader of ANC's terrorist wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK). MK was funded extensively by communist block secret services which provided military/terrorist training as well. For his leadership of MK, Mandela was arrested in 1962, convicted of sabotage in 1964 and sentenced to life imprisonment on Robben Island. The Soviet block and the world's left started the campaign of iconization/idolization of Mandela the terrorist. These are the facts.

    Yes, Mandela may not have called for direct expropriation, but neither did he react to events in Zimbabwe. Subtle, and not so subtle, reverse discrimination, and legislation has led to mass exodus of highly qualified white professionals and businesses on his watch. Are SA blacks today better off under ANC? Stats are unequivocal: NO. And it's getting worse: SA will be the next Zimbabwe. That's Mandela's legacy. The rest are leftist myths.
  32. Mr. Alfani from Canada writes: This guy is all hype and no substance....
  33. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Tim Bryson from Claresholm, AB., Canada writes: 'Big Wayne Kerr...are you seriuosly suggesting that European colonialism in Africa (or elsewhere) 'bettered' the subjects of colonialism?

    I wonder what Ghandi would say? '

    You mean, if he lived today in Zimbabwe, or in any African country, today? I guess he might have preferred Ian Smith's Rhodesia.
  34. S R from london london, Canada writes: Mandela was the 'head' of a movement of the people, the South African black majority...

    The World's Left glorifying him has nothing to do with the fact that a body of black africans threw off their white oppressors.

    Leaders can't explain the power of the people, don't you get it?

    The ANC used violence to counter violence. Canada used violence to subdue the natives.

    Dr Martin Luther King preached and practiced non-violence and he died violently...

    A black African is not a white person in a black body.
  35. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Tym Bryson, Mandela the Marxist may have opted for communist-style expropriation. Unfortunately for him, ANC took over AFTER the fiasco of communism. At least he was clever evough not to replicate a collapsing ideology. More on his and ANC's terrorist past: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress): 'During the 1970s and 1980s the ANC leadership in exile under Oliver Tambo made the decision to target Apartheid government leadership, command and control, secret police, and military-industrial complex assets and personnel in decapitation strikes, targeted killings, and guerilla actions such as bomb explosions in facilities frequented by military and government personnel. A number of civilians were also killed in these attacks. Examples of these include the Amanzimtoti bombing[3], the Sterland bomb in Pretoria[4], the Wimpy bomb in Pretoria[5], the Juicy Lucy bomb in Pretoria[4] and the Magoo's bar bombing in Durban.[6] ANC acts of sabotage aimed at government institutions included the bombing of the Johannesburg Magistrates Court, the attack on the Koeberg nuclear power station, the rocket attack on Voortrekkerhoogte in Pretoria, and the 1983 Church Street bombing in Pretoria, which killed 16 and wounded 130. In the ANC's training camps, the ANC faced allegations that dissident members faced torture, detention without trial and even execution in ANC prison camps. In South Africa, the campaign to make the townships 'ungovernable' led to kangaroo courts and mob executions of opponents and collaborators, often by necklacing.'
  36. Big Wayne Kerr from Kumbaya, Canada writes: S R ' Indians, who were fought in a real backhanded way, by issuing and renouncing treaties.'

    Which treaties were renounced in Canada?
    You may be misinformed.
  37. ss dd from Vancouver, Canada writes: Mandela is nothing but a politically correct leftist ex-terrorist turned politician. That of course makes him the darling of modern media, sold out long ago to the idea of a 'progressive' (read socialist) world.

    One should ask though if South Africans (particularly its blacks) are living any better today than in the old bad days of, say, P.W. Botha.
    After all, South Africa IS the capital crime of the world, enjoys a seemingly permanent energy crisis, and has about 20% of its entire adult population HIV infected (according to wikipedia).
  38. hockey mom from Canada writes: He remains an icon and the world will forever be changed as a result of his convictions.
    It is unfortunate, however, that the Globe's scribes are unable to distinguish when to use there, their or they're. tisk tisk.
  39. The Work Farce from Canada writes: Sharing is an excellent idea tried from time to time by brave idealistic folks in the face of economic terrorism the wealthy have always used to prohibit sharing. Those who have accumulated wealth and/or believe themselves superior have been infamous throughout history for their unwillingness to share and for their hatred of those who do. After de-colonization in the 60's, faced with the prospect of Africa going socialist or communist, the West obviously did not want African nations to succeed. Foreign aid to African countries has always been given to the leaders while little has trickled down to the impoverished, the diseased, the starving. Foreign aid, furthermore, has had so many strings attached, the fat cat leaders, most educated at Harvard or Oxford, have obviously been puppets of the West enriching themselves western style at the expense of the poor.Foreign aid, moreover, has always been contingent on purchasing billions in cast off armaments thus ensuring the African nations would be awash in weapons for endless civil wars. Socialism would have worked to bring the African nations up by their bootstraps, but attempts at socialism were always caught between the iron fist of Soviet communism and the subversive strings of the capitalist West. Mandela was a great freedom fighter. He's a great man. Why have the South Africans become poorer than before apartheid? Don't know all the reasons, but I'd bet the World Bank and the IMF don't want the South Africans to share and succeed at sharing. Why don't Canadians share? Economic terrorism. Fear and greed. Same bad deal everywhere.
  40. Big Wayne Kerr from Kumbaya, Canada writes: The Work Farce' I'd bet the World Bank and the IMF don't want the South Africans to share and succeed at sharing. '

    Riight.

    First off, stealing isn't 'sharing'.

    Second off, an advanced country with nearly unlimited resources is on its way to becoming a primitive crime-ridden hell-hole and it's the fault of the world bank and IMF somehow.

    You need to get away from the chomsky and the brochures and get out more. You sound like a sophmore who just discovered the 'grand conspiracy'
  41. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: The Work Farce from Canada , in BFS, profit is the reward for risks taken, and the value added. What risks have you taken, and what value have you added in your life so far?

    Any bank in Canada, based on a solid business idea and a business plan, would lend you up to $250K, fed govn't backed, small busines loan. Some VC and angel investors will be interested, too. Willing to try?

    Or you prefer to be in the business of redistributing/the poverty industry?
  42. Cuban Cigar from Canada writes: Happy Birthday Mr. Mandela - a true leader.

    As you can see from the posts above, Mr. Mandela, there is a lot of anger and ignorance still in the world.
  43. B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: Tim Bryson from Claresholm, AB., Canada writes: And to think that this giant of a man was considered a terrorist by his opponents in South Africa and the USA.

    Let's go over it again: terrorism is a modus operandi. It is a way to do things. The ANC most definitely used terrorism. That doesn't mean their cause wasn't just or that apartheid shouldn't have been fought against, but to deny that terrorism was one of their means is to ignore history. Ergo, it's not unusual or wrong that the ANC was called a terrorist organization -- it was an accurate description, though they were the good guys.
  44. Big Wayne Kerr from Kumbaya, Canada writes: B.C. Expat 'The ANC most definitely used terrorism. That doesn't mean their cause wasn't just or that apartheid shouldn't have been fought against, but to deny that terrorism was one of their means is to ignore history. Ergo, it's not unusual or wrong that the ANC was called a terrorist organization -- it was an accurate description, though they were the good guys. '

    Exactly, just like the guys who founded Israel. Sure they used terror, but they saved lives in the long run by doing so.
  45. Robert Brion from Calgary, Canada writes: It's funny to pick up the simplistic trolls attempting to define Nelson Mandela, as if a person can be reduced to 'left' or 'right'.

    A great man transcends labels, and Nelson Mandela is a great man who has achieved more in his lifetime than all of us here combined will do.

    Happy 90th birthday, Madiba!
  46. Mothers Talk from Disney Land USA, Canada writes:
    'Wealthy should share riches with the poor, country's first post-apartheid president says in birthday message '

    What should happen is for the poor to rise up and overthrow the wealthy and force them to work as serfs instead. The mantra as always is that the rich should help the poor, but this doesnt happen in reality. The poor always become slaves for the rich and has been like that for centuries. The Rich should do some hard time in prison, like Lord Black.
  47. ss dd from Vancouver, Canada writes: Robert Brion from Calgary, Canada writes:

    A great man transcends labels, and Nelson Mandela is a great man who has achieved more in his lifetime than all of us here combined will do.
    ---

    Really ? Like what, exactly ?
    Maybe bringing a formerly rich country back to a third world status and inter-tribal conflicts ?
    Mind you, the abolishment of apartheid was de Klerk's doing not Mandela's.

    How long exactly are SA's present leaders (Mandela included) going to blame their own failures on 'the legacy of apartheid' ?
    It's been 14 years now...
  48. Mothers Talk from Disney Land USA, Canada writes:
    'Swiss bankers trained to avoid detection
    Training part of intensive effort to help wealthy North Americans evade taxes, U.S. Senate subcommittee says'

    Capitalists everywhere are corrupt, case in point.
  49. ss dd from Vancouver, Canada writes: Mothers Talk from Disney Land USA, Canada writes:

    Capitalists everywhere are corrupt, case in point.
    ---------

    Luckily for you, you can always take refuge in Castro's Cuba... Once... :-)
  50. Ray Heard from Canada writes: Mandela will be remembered for forgiving his enemies more than anything else he achieved. And let's remember that Canada, unlike its big English-speaking allies, supported the anti-apartheid cause from the time of Diefenbaker. When I saw him in Cape Town two years ago, Madiba, the second person after Wallenberg to be made an Honourary Canadian, fondly recalled the efforts of Dief, Pearson, Trudeau, Mulroney, Clark, and Turner. Today, he is not the lion in winter; he is, rather, the bull elephant who cares for his family and gracefully retreats when its time to go. Take note, John Doyle: e insists that will not before the 2010 world soccer cup in his beloved but still troubled country.
  51. LUCIEN ALEXANDRE MARION from Canada writes: HAPPY BIRTHDAY-BONNE FETE NELSON MANDELLA.....FROM CANADA WITH LOVE.
  52. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Robert Brion from Calgary, Canada writes: 'It's funny to pick up the simplistic trolls attempting to define Nelson Mandela, as if a person can be reduced to 'left' or 'right'.

    A great man transcends labels, and Nelson Mandela is a great man who has achieved more in his lifetime than all of us here combined will do.

    Happy 90th birthday, Madiba! '

    In an identical fashion, the 'progressives' were extending their best wishes to Mugabe before 10-15-20 years. The difference between Mugabe and Mandela is called '10-15-20 years down the road'. That's how long it takes to squander the 'evils of colonialism'.
  53. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Note to right-wingers: you guys are really out to lunch bashing Mandela. Seriously, you have nothing to stand on on this. Stop embarrasing yourselves, go find some legitimate and worthwhile targets for your ideological harangues--YOU ARE ALREADY ON THE LOSING SIDE OF HISTORY ON THIS ONE. YOU ARE ONLY MAKING IT WORSE FOR YOURSELVES. Give it up, already. You lost this one years ago.
  54. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: 'Note to right-wingers: you guys are really out to lunch bashing Mandela. Seriously, you have nothing to stand on on this. Stop embarrasing yourselves, go find some legitimate and worthwhile targets for your ideological harangues--YOU ARE ALREADY ON THE LOSING SIDE OF HISTORY ON THIS ONE. YOU ARE ONLY MAKING IT WORSE FOR YOURSELVES. Give it up, already. You lost this one years ago. '

    Comrade Joey, you mean, 'we' lost, but the ordinary blacks of SA won?!
  55. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: 'Big Wayne Kerr at 11:22 AM EDT. You are ignorant and then some. Thanks for your skewed interpretation of history. History can be so convenient sometimes, eh?

    G&M: close this thread already. The threads been hijacked by ignoramuses. Embarrasing. '

    Yep, censorship time. Tha's how the great 'progressive' upheavals and endeavors end.
  56. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Peter Bojkov, this may shock and surprise you, but yes, the ordinary blacks in South Africa would rather have freedom and democracy then live as second class citizens in their own country. How this fails to register with you is astounding. Embarrasing really. Just out of curiousity, though, were you one of those championing the Iraq invasion on the premise that the Iraqis deserve democracy and freedom, to be free from dictatorship and abuse? Perhaps not, I don't know if the concept of human rights means anything to you at all. I bet Martin Luther King was an anarchist by your standards.
  57. ss dd from Vancouver, Canada writes: Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: '
    It's been 14 years now... ' Are you an idiot?
    --------
    No. Are YOU ?

    Do you have ANY idea when apartheid fell in SA ?

    Why don't take all those nice epithets you throwing around so kindly and stick them to your own forefront. They'll fit much better there...
  58. Ray Heard from Canada writes: As someone who knows him, may I add a postscript to this discussion. It was always unfair to accuse Mandela of being a 'terrorist'because, from his cell on Robben Island, he gave strict orders to the miltrary wing of the ANC only to attack agents of the apartheid state, not civilians. A terrorist is someone who targets innocent people, as in the Twin Towsers, to create mayhem. So it is grossly unfair for commentators to say, pointing their fingers at Madbia, that yesterday's terrorist is today's freedom fighter -- if his or her cause prevails. He weas a freedom warrior from day 1. I might add that, when we asked Madiba more than two years ago why he had forgiven his enemies, his response was that that was what the Methodist missionaries had taught him to do as a boy, based on the example of Jesus of Nazareth. Thus we see that, evil as British Colonialism was in many respects, the legacy of the Christian Church, notably the Anglicans and Methodists who accompanied the Imperialists, was honourable. Indeed, in the worst days of apartheid, with Madbia behind bars, the flickering embers of freedom were kept alive by these men of the cloth, one of whom was the young Anglican, Benjamin Tutu. Finally, what country on earth has more Nobel winners per capita than the new South Africa? Mandela, Tutu and de Klerk for peace; Nadine Gordimer, J. M. Coetzee and, an honourary South African from Rhodesia, Doris Lessing, for Literature, plus others in the sciences.
  59. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: 'Peter Bojkov, this may shock and surprise you, but yes, the ordinary blacks in South Africa would rather have freedom and democracy then live as second class citizens in their own country. How this fails to register with you is astounding.'

    Yep, it's time to speak on behalf of the SA ordinary blacks. Under communism/socialism/secular humanis/etc.leftist 'isms' there's always some comrade who usurps the right to speak on behalf of the masses. My opinion is based on macroecon data, Jo. What's your opinion based on?

    Annoyingly stupid? Get into facts. Getting into ad hominem betrays no serious arguments in a dispute.
  60. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Peter Bojkov, I'm speaking for South Africans? I didn't know macroeconomic data factored in democratic aspirations. Fascinating. Give it rest, dude.
  61. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: 'no serious arguments' ----- ha ha ha. Get this: you are so out of touch that it's kind of hard to take you 'seriously'. Get over it. Apartheid was a bad idea. You chose the wrong side of history on that one.
  62. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: How do you quantify democratic aspirations? Can you have them for dinner? Do they give you a job? You go tell that to the Zimbabweans, or the ghetto people in Soweto. You cannot have democracy without market economy. And vice versa.
  63. k p from Montreal, Canada writes: 'or the ghetto people in Soweto' First time I went to Soweto, I was pleasantly surprised to find it was NOT a complete hell hole, evrytime I go back, it gets a little better. A lot better than Ciudade de Deus
  64. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Oh well, I guess the de facto one-party SA is better then the apartheid? Like Zimbabwe? Where you have Mugabe and his cronies, and the rest, the dividing line being being in office and in the money? Jo, your leftist dream SA is moving, and fast, down the Zimbabwe road. Before the rooster crows in ten years, you will have to deny Mandela, Mbeki, Zuma, etc., the way the left denied Mugabe.

    Care to educate yourself on how SA-style 'democracy' and 'market economy' fuction in SA. You may finally make the connection one-party system/economic collapse. Plus the accompanying niceties of crime, nepotism, corruption, etc.
  65. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: One party system. Kind of like Japan. What a disaster Japan turned out to be, eh?
  66. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: 'leftist dream SA'---what does the 'left' have to do with SA? It's free market democracy there--you know, the kind championed by G8 and the US everwhere. Is human rights leftist? I guess if you're championing Botha's apartheid regime than, yeah, that would make me a lefty compared to you.
  67. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: 'One party system. Kind of like Japan. What a disaster Japan turned out to be, eh? '

    Yep, exactly like SA. And all other post-colonail dictatorships established by the black freedom fighters of the 60s. Japan's socialists had their day, and were kicked out by the electorate. You try to kick out ANC and the underlying tribalism of this party. Apples with apples, please.
  68. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: ''leftist dream SA'---what does the 'left' have to do with SA? It's free market democracy there--you know, the kind championed by G8 and the US everwhere. Is human rights leftist? I guess if you're championing Botha's apartheid regime than, yeah, that would make me a lefty compared to you. '

    What I am NOT championing is quasi-democracy and quasi-market economy in a de facto one-party system. Especially when, after all the leftist fanfare of the ANC take over, today the very blacks that voted it in are worse off than during apartheid ('democratic aspirations' escluded). What I am not championing is turning a blind eye on the situation in SA just because the ex-terrorist Mandela hapens to be the poster African leader of the leftist crowd. Just as Mugabe was.
  69. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Apples with Apples, eh? So the principle isn't what matters, it's the the specific context of SA. So take this back' 'You cannot have democracy without market economy'. And this one too: 'You may finally make the connection one-party system/economic collapse.' And don't make grandiose claims. I'll let you in on a little secret, though--since I genuinely think you're too stupid to understand this. People, whether in Africa, Asia, the former Soviet Union, the Americas, want economic prosperity AS WELL as democratic rights and freedoms. And as much as you might wish the opposite were true: people in South Africa don't long for the days of Apartheid. The people of India and South East Asia don't regret independence from European colonial domination. The people of Eastern Europe aren't clamouring for a return to communism. And the slaves in the Americas don't resent having been liberated from their slave masters. Yes, there were idiots like you who made the same arguments--in each and every case. Yes, Southern slave masters made the same arguments that only they could provide black slaves they're basic needs. It's a false argument and only ideologues like yourself can't see that. No, you won't find too many black South Africans who want to go back to Apartheid or who resent Nelson Mandela's 'intervention' (as if Blacks were prosperous during Apartheid...laughable). And this has nothing to do with right or left--in fact: liberation from oppression is a basic tenet of today's NEO-CONSERVATIVE movement. Have a good day. And do get some sun. Fresh air might help you think a little more clearly.
  70. The Work Farce from Canada writes: Big Wayne Kerr from Kumbaya, Canada and Peter Vojkov from Vaughan, ON: We who have always understood the world is one big bad economic terrorist conspiracy are a loose affiliation of millionaires and billionaires. I just happen to be one of the millionaires. I taught Chomsky everything he knows. I learned it in university, then re-learned it in the real world. Chomsky's quite intelligent but one doesn't quite understand the issues until the issues walk on your feet, step on your head and kick your butt with a jackboot. When you refer to 'risk-taking' to make money, I believe you mean what Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld et al did by invading Iraq? Odds were 4 - 1 in their favour that nobody was going to do diddly squat about it while they enriched themselves to the tune of billions of dollars and millions of lives. No thanks. Not my cup of tea. But perhaps you would be so kind as to tell me just what is making South Africans so poor?
  71. Big Wayne Kerr from Canada writes: "Finally, what country on earth has more Nobel winners per capita than the new South Africa"

    The evil backwards heathen United States received 304 out of 770 since the Dynamite money was given out.
  72. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Joey, huffing and puffing do not help your grossly burdened thinking. Is it THAT difficult for you to get my points?

    1) SA, under the ex-terrorist ANC, is a QUASI-DEMOCRACY and a QUASI-MARKET ECONOMY. Even leftist bastions of thought like the Economist and BBC agree on that

    2) The blacks are NOT better off under thed ex-terrorist ANC

    3) While the SA blacks most probably do not cry for the days past, they definitely are NOT happy with the one-party rule of the ex-terrorist ANC. The ex-terrorist, Nelson Mandela, seems happier than the, as he does not voice any criticism of substance to SA occurances that will define, at the end of the day, his legacy.

    Why is ad hominem a Pavlov reflex for every leftie/liberal? No arguments? Then just try to keep your mouth shut. You do not denigrate me: you denigrate yourself.

    4) Where will the one-party rule end? Look up north, to Zimbabwe.
  73. Big Wayne Kerr from Canada writes: "perhaps you would be so kind as to tell me just what is making South Africans so poor?"

    So much poorer than before you mean.
    Well for one thing, it can't be good to run a country in such a way that your most skilled and productive people leave to never return. That sure helps to make a country poorer fast.
  74. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Peter Bojkov, you deserve ad hominems because you're a retarded idiot. The "ex-terrorist ANC": You're an idiot. And yes, Blacks are better off now. Period. Idiot.
  75. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Ah, yes, and my MP, the mollycoddled Rob Anders, is undoubtedly extending his best wishes to Mr. Mandela (with Guillaume aka "Big" Wayne's approbation).
  76. Big Wayne Kerr from Canada writes: DM Liberal scumbag liar. Read my comments and demonstrate "approbation".
  77. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: PLEASE calm down, Joey. Your histrionics do not add substance to your incoherent opstings/opinions. A quick visit to the like-minded, fuzzy and cozy, oh-so-liberal, oh-so-"intellectual" blog of Justin Webb will probably do you some good.
  78. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: oh my, diane marie, Child Soldier Omar's Mutter Courage is here, feasting on the terrorists-are-freedom-fighters crumbs.
  79. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: Hey Peter, sorry about all the huffing and puffing. I got a little carried away--perhaps I read a little too much into what you were saying. Tell you what: why don't you set the record straight, tell us how you DO think apartheid was a crime against humanity, that Black South Africans would rather live in a post-Apartheid state, that Mandela was right to fight for democracy, and I'll stop thinking you're a complete and utter retard. Sond fair?
  80. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Peter Bojkov:-- Perhaps you might have taken the advice you gave at 11:21 about incoherent opstings(sic)/opinions and utilized them to express yourself at 11:32.

    Big Wayne:-- Well, Guillaume, since you have never hesitated to express your admiration for everything CPC, I just naturally assumed that you didn't mind that Rob Anders was the only MP to refuse to agree to Mr. Mandela's receiving an honorary Canadian citizenship (on account of his being a communist and terrorist). Perhaps I am mistaken, though.
  81. ss dd from Vancouver, Canada writes: Jo Ingblat from Canada writes:
    You're an idiot. And yes, Blacks are better off now. Period. Idiot.
    ----------
    You are using the word "idiot" waaay to often for a normal person. You must be suffering from some terrible form of inferiority complex. Or maybe it's just your second name...
  82. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: "Hey Peter, sorry about all the huffing and puffing. I got a little carried away--perhaps I read a little too much into what you were saying. Tell you what: why don't you set the record straight, tell us how you DO think apartheid was a crime against humanity, that Black South Africans would rather live in a post-Apartheid state, that Mandela was right to fight for democracy..."

    Jo, Mandela may have spoken many times, and quite eloquently, of democracy. However, as a marxist and ex-terrorists, he accomplished the peaceful transfer from apartheid to a de facto one-party political system, with all political, economic, and moral consequences. THIS will be his legacy. It won't differ from Mugabe's tirades on freedom, opportunities, and equality for the blacks in Zimbabwe, 20 yrs ago.
  83. Big Wayne Kerr from Canada writes: diane marie ".Big Wayne:-- Well, Guillaume, since you have never hesitated to express your admiration for everything CPC, I just naturally assumed that you didn't mind that Rob Anders was the only MP to refuse to agree to Mr. Mandela's receiving an honorary Canadian citizenship (on account of his being a communist and terrorist). Perhaps I am mistaken, though. "

    You are.
    1) Despising the hypocritical criticms emanating from loyal LPC soldiers who fail to apply the same standards to their tribe is hardly Admiration for everything CPC.

    2) Mandela was indeed a terrorist and his party does in fact lean communist still. These things matter, so yes he achieved some good, but the horrors arrived and still to come from coercive collectivism partly rest on his shoulders too. Zimbabwe 2. So let's temper the praise, recognize the good and fully recognize the bad.
  84. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: ummmm, nah.. not good enough. I still think you're an idiot.
  85. Peter Bojkov from Vaughan ON, writes: Oh, Joey, still not up to the loony left standards? Now that's sad.

    For lefties with no brain for arguments but for ad hominen only: Justin Webb's blog/NYT/WP/CNN/BBC/NBC/etc. where they meet like-minded ones. Praise each other in the glory of the grand left utopias. Universal and eternal peace, social justice, liberte, fraternite, egalite, fight-and-defeat-(child)-poverty, darwinism, secular humanism, ethic relativism, anti-neocon and anti-Americanism be with you, bro Joey. Did I miss anything?

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