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Trans fat task force hard on soft margarines

DAVID HUTTON

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 7:10 PM EST 23/07/08

Health Canada and the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada said while many fast-food restaurants have cut trans fats sharply, many soft margarine producers have resisted change ...Read the full article

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  1. Mathieu Marcil from Toronto, Canada writes: Margarine is gross. Just eat butter instead!
  2. Fish Lips from Toronto, Canada writes: mmmm... butter makes it better!!!!
  3. R L from Canada writes: Ban trans fats from all restaurants.

    Some cities have already done it, and all to great success. What are the other laggard cities waiting for? And for that matter, what is the federal government waiting for?

    Do it now.
  4. Richard Daystrom from Toronto, Canada writes: I love butter on toast. Some margarines are nice but there's nothing like butter.

    Why didn't they name any more brands?
  5. Scenic Sask! from Canada writes: President's Choice CELEB margarine, made with olive oil tastes better than butter and has omega-3 and omega-6, just 5% fats (0 saturates) and 0 cholesterol. The price is right too @ $2.49/907g.
  6. M Poland from Calgary, Canada writes: Becel.
  7. John Smith from Canada writes: Maybe the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada is just angry because these companies won't cough up and pay them to use their Health Check symbol.
  8. Ed Long from Canada writes: Butter is better than this crap.

    Granted it is saturated fat, but it is not an edible oil product.

    Canola for cooking. Extra virgin olive oil for dressing. Limited butter on bread, never more than two slices a day.

    Forget the margerine, Cool Whip, Dairy Queen Soft Serve. Just spray WD-40 into your mouth.
  9. Prairie Boy from Canada writes: Man some of these people are going to be so amazed when they actually die.
  10. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:
    Very few of us will get out of this world alive.
  11. Talyn Hysteriod from Canada writes: The Heart and Stroke Foundation probably doesn't want to mention Becel because they are the major sponsor for the Ride for Heart, one of their major annual fundraisers. A little hypocritical in my view…
  12. Ed Long from Canada writes: Some years ago the Helsinki study looked at centagenarians around the world.

    Amongst the commonalities, daily walking in hilly environment, basic ignorance of world affairs, community respect accruing with age, was the eating of natural foods close to the source.

    Picking a tomato or buying a freshly picked one in a green grocer, drizzling it with olive oil, a slice of nice sharp local cheese, a slice of home made bread, a bit of local butter was all close to the source.

    Margarine is close to what?
  13. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Ed Long:-- We agree on something. One is far better off enjoying butter in moderation than margarine - one can then keep the artery sludge moving by using canola or - my favourite - olive oil. Olive oil brushed on a good sandwich bread is almost as good as butter, especially if briefly grilled.
  14. Dieter Birk from Toronto, Canada writes: What's the fuss about trans fat? It was a great money-making invention: chemistry for profits, at its finest. We are in a society where everything is legal until there is a law against it. Since politicians make laws, and get their political funding from the wealthy folks that own these food corporations, no laws to preserve human health will trump business profits. Public outcry is such a fleeting phenomenon that it is better to ride out the little storm of controversy than change products or profit margins. Companies are "persons" in the eyes of the tax department. It takes only 18 years to grow a replacement human person after the previous generation dies of clogged arteries. It takes longer than that to grow a multi-national food company and the billions in profits. So stop complaining. Spend your money on junk food - breed and die. The world of business doesn't need you. You are expendible - the product and profits are not. As we speak, the "food" chemists and production engineers are working on new technologies to make sawdust and corn husks taste like chicken. Those wonderful soy "meat substitutes" you are eating for good health are currently made out of the chicken skin and cartilage that was deemed garbage a generation ago. The canned mushrooms from China contain human fecal matter. That's OK, they sell well. That's what really matters. Taste is all a matter of chemistry and human gullibility.
  15. Stan L from Canada writes: The heart and stroke foundation has a lot of nerve...how many margarines have the heart and stroke logo on it? How much cash did they pay for it the rights to use the health check logo? I have lost all respect for this group and as far as I am concerned, I will take my advice elsewhere......PS Heart and Stroke, anyone watching their salt and trans fats already knew about the margarine quite some time ago!!! Thanks for the dated information....duh
  16. Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes: Here's an idea - how about the government butts out? If I want to eat margarine (which I don't, it's gross) I will. If I don't, I won't.

    People making choices. What a concept.
  17. emu bee from Kitchener ON, Canada writes: Does anyone think for one moment that these huge conglomerates will worry because they will have 2000 to 3000 fewer margerine-eating customers each year?
  18. Mark Dowling from Toronto, Canada writes: no wonder the Quebec dairy lobby were a bit muted about the yellow margarine - they probably knew they had a trans fat card to play!
  19. Fake Name from Canada writes: Ed Long ... I'm no particular fan of margarine, although I'll use a bit on a sandwich. But speaking for myself, I'd really rather not live to be 100 anyway. Bumping quickly from a heart attack at 70-something seems a lot more attractive than hanging around in a nursing home dribbling from one end or the other for an extra twenty years or so.
  20. Rick Drysdale from Canada writes: We now have the reincarnation of the margarine police .

    Whats next the thought police.

    Let us make our own choices. The H & S F are just another group in line asking for our money.
  21. Dick Garneau from Canada writes: Trans Fats are 1,000 times more serious to your health than CO2, whats the hold up legislate it out of use.

    .
  22. A Smith from Canada writes: R L from Canada writes: "Ban trans fats from all restaurants.Some cities have already done it, and all to great success. What are the other laggard cities waiting for? And for that matter, what is the federal government waiting for?"

    Wow! Easier said than done. Unfortunately the problem isn't with the restaurants. Nearly all restaurants have switched to advertising "trans fat free". They are right, they are cooking with trans fat free. But the suppliers still are cooking with trans fats. That won't change any time soon. The use these trans fats for a number of reasons including shelf life. Which is what the restaurants want.
  23. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Mark H:-- Virtually the entire Canadian population enjoys health coverage (admittedly imperfect), so the taxpayer has a vested interest in health outcomes. My husband and I have two private plans in addition to Alberta Health Care - we pay almost nothing for either dental care or prescriptions, but we do pay the premiums for all the plans. Friends in Texas pay in one month what we pay annually, and we don't have to live with the guilt of knowing that about one-sixth of Canadians have been left high and dry without coverage (proportionately speaking). It's not perfect, it's becoming increasingly unsustainable, but it beats many alternatives.
  24. stand up mimi from Vancouver, Canada writes: Mark H - I'm all for people making their own choices and being responsible for their own health. The problem is that margarine was actively marketed for decades as a healthier option than butter. People who were trying to be responsible and lead a healthy life were duped. The government has a duty to prevent corporations from pushing poison disguised as food on the public. They may have had an excuse years ago - nobody seemed to know how bad this stuff was (although it's a pretty weak excuse). But now that it's clear the stuff will kill you, why is it still appearing in food?
  25. Ed Long from Canada writes: So the government comes down on trans-fats but allows a safe injection site ....
  26. Ed Long from Canada writes: And my point is that if we accept self-induced medical conditions resulting from over-eating, improper eating, smoking, alcohol and umpteen other personal choices then funding for detox and rehab. for drug users should be under Canada Health.

    Then, Diane Marie, comes the question of government control or elimination of substances, from transfats to drugs, to allow entry to state funded medical care.

    People say they want choices not control of the individual .... fine.

    We just eliminate or restrict some of the choices.

    The whole issue of highly processed foods is just as hazardous as tobacco, alcohol. illegal or prescription drugs.
  27. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Ed Long:-- Interestingly enough, one in ten people arrive in emergency because they have been over-medicated by doctors. I had to put my foot down with my in-laws when I saw the number of prescriptions both were taking. I insisted that both take all of their pill bottles to a new doctor and ask for an assessment, at which point both were taken off a good number of their prescriptions.
  28. Joseph Whistle from Canada writes: Very positive. I'm very excited about this progress. I've been avoiding anything hydrogenated and also anything partially hydrogenated. I also avoid products that mention partially hydrogenated oil, yet claim zero transfat, which I don't think is possible. What they do is they "choose" a small "portion size", small enough where they get to legally round off that transfat figure to zero.
    As for french fries, I find Burger King and MacDonald's fries disgusting. It's more like some sort of deep fried goo. Harvey's fries are much nicer, as you can actually recognize the actual potato they're supposed to be made from. $1.99 * 2 = $4.26 (pay only one tax because the before tax amount is under $4 - stupid rule) - makes for a great quick snack on the road.
  29. stand up mimi from Canada writes: What I find particularly annoying is hearing bad advice from medical experts on fluff news spots. I just heard a doctor on TV say that margarine is healthier than butter. It's no wonder people don't know what to eat.
  30. George Levecque from Fergus, Ontario, Canada writes: The Heart and Stroke group where highlighted earlier this year by CBC Marketplace on how they obtain there "funds" by letting large corporations use there check mark, I too have no faith in the heart and stroke groupe, shame on them for selling out for dirty money eh!
  31. Ed Long from Canada writes: The danger is a return to lo-fat or no fat diets.

    They are the reason for the high carb diets which resulted in the no carbo diets which brought on all types of dietary self-abuse.

    We need fats to function, rebuild cells, hormones, fat soluble vitamins and as the most dense energy storage.

    There have been qualified comments on previous boards regarding recent research on various fatty acids and their role in good health.

    Polyunsaturated and monounsaturated are liquid at room temp. and come from plant sources. Poly lowers HDL and LDL cholesterol. Mono lowers LDL and keeps HDL stable. Canola is 62% mono, olive oil is 77% ... and the secret to the Mediterranean diet is?

    Butter is 66% saturated fat, 4% poly and 30% mono.

    30% fat calories in a daily diet is a max. and fat is very calorie dense at 9 calories/gram. It only takes a little. Check with a certified dietician.

    Hydrogenation is a chemical process that adds hydrogen atoms to unsaturated fats making them more saturated and more resistant to rancidity. The resultant hydrogen atom formation is not found in nature.
    These are trans fatty acids as opposed to cis fatty acids that occur in nature, including natural saturated fats.

    High saturated fat foods tend to be solid at room temp.

    DM- like you, through family I was aware of overprescribing pharmaceuticals. But, it was only last year that an apparently very healthy friend suddenly died. Some months later, his wife confided he was addicted to prescription painkillers and overdosed.

    I do believe addictions of many substances and destructive lifestyles, and over-dependency on multiple prescription drugs are a public health issue.

  32. a salajan from To, Canada writes: Sure: avoid margarine but pork up on canola. Which is not a plant by the way. Canola oil is rapeseed oil (GM-ed). Where I come from was (still is) used to lubricate machinery. At least margarines, when "invented", brought the advantages of solid vegetable fat (room temperature) and longer shelf life. What advantage/benefit does canola offer? Is cheap. That's it. And the gm-ed rape cultivar is easy to grow. Insects won't eat it. I wonder why. Loose the purse strings and buy sunflower oil for cooking. And olive oil for salads, dips, dressing. But if you need a reason to stick with canola I will give you one: it has the maple leaf on it.
  33. M Poland from Calgary, Canada writes: Diane Marie--why on earth draw a line along the border? if you feel guilty about having a health plan you must surely feel guilty about those below the border who do not have any access to the same. Oh, the humanity! "It beats many alternatives"--or just the one, Diane?
  34. Alastair james Berry from Nanaimo BC CANADA, Canada writes:
    I still expect to see TRANS FATS labelled as one of the causes of Alzheimers disease.

    I have never willingly eaten margarine, knowing that it was manufactured from what ever edible oils or tallow was cheapest on the market.

    I have even found LARD labelled as "MAY CONTAIN HYDROGENATED OILS" where as , LARD to me , should be PIG FAT, pure and simple!

    Personally I am quite a few pounds overweight and I rationalize that my spare tyre is composed of trans fats deposits that my body has difficulty metabolizing!
  35. Jeff Kelly from Kitchener, Canada writes: Eliminating trans fats is all to the good; let's just not replace them with something else as bad or worse!

    The article talks about using Palm Oil as a potential replacement as a stabilizing oil agent... Unfortunately, places like Indonesia are bulldozing vast expanses of rainforest (Not that there's really all that much left anymore I guess) to start oil-palm plantations. They also use it for biofuels.

    That's a great idea. Let's burn down the rainforest because we're too cheap to buy butter or use olive oil...

    The human race... Lurching from one crisis to the next, wreaking havoc as we go. Some things never change.
  36. crazy fiddler from Canada writes: Some "experts" are now saying that extra virgin coconut oil is the only safe oil for high heat cooking; even though it has more saturated fat, it doesn't form free radicals at high heat. Peanut oil has also been preferred by many for this reason; it can tolerate higher heat without breaking down. Olive oil is safe only at lower temperatures, and like another poster, I'm not too keen on canola oil, personally. Try finding non-GMO canola oil....it may be possible, but you'll have to look hard, and pay more.

    Then there are the "experts" (the Dr. Macdougall camp et al) who say that no fats (oils) are safe fats, since they are all, in some manner, processed. Needless to say, these are also proponents of a vegan diet. Not an easy road, and I'm not personally convinced of all of its supposed virtues.

    Hubba, hubba, hubba, who do ya trust?
  37. Thomas Anderson from Canada writes:

    Ed Long --

    Butter is not 66% saturated fat.

    First of all, there is no such thing as “saturated fat.” There are fats, plural, some of which are classified as saturated.

    Some of the saturated fats raise LDL very slightly, a fact which has been used by Becel -- and its partner, the Heart and Stroke Foundation -- to vastly increase the market for margarine in Canada.

    But saturated fats also raise HDL which clearly has the greater impact with respect to heart disease risk. Furthermore, saturated fats are always accompanied by mono and poly fats which, in fresh whole foods, lower LDL quite significantly. The net result is a REDUCED risk for heart disease.

    About 50% of the fats in butter are saturated, and all the evidence shows them to be beneficial, not harmful in any way.
  38. Ed Long from Canada writes: Thomas Anderson

    My error: I am looking at my freshly bought pound of unsalted butter, 14g serving, 11g total fat, 7g saturated fat.

    A saturated fatty acid is one that carries the maximum number of hydrogen atoms,, leaving no points unsaturated. There are two types of unsaturated fatty acids:monounsaturated and polyunsaturated. Food contains a mixture of the three kinds. We agree.

    When a fat contains predominately saturated fatty acids, it is said to be a saturated fat. Similarly for fats with predominate mono or poly unsaturated fat.

    Transfats are hydrogenated fats made possible by a chemical process adding hydrogen atoms reducing the double bonds found in cis fatty acids, natural fats, to produce a trans fatty acid. The shifting of hydrogen atoms results in hydrogen on both sides as opposed to one side for cis fatty acids. It's an "unnatural" saturated fat molecule. It doesn't go rancid easily.

    This is the concern and the point of my previous posts. The result of hydrogenation is a new molecule. A trans fat molecule does not resemble a natural saturated fat molecule because of the alignment of hydrogen atoms.

    HDL to LDL ratios are specific to each person and can only be calculated after the appropriate tests. To say that the HDL increase of natural saturated fats is more beneficial than the LDL increase of the same food is quite a stretch. Furthermore, HDL/LDL ratios are only one risk factor for heart disease and the presence of high blood pressure and tobacco smoking exacerbate the high cholesterol risk factor.

    Cholesterol is also affected by age, sex and heredity.

    Example: my father's maternal side is extremely high total cholesterol good LDL/HDL ratio, however all have rejected statins, are thin, fit and in their 80's.

    They rarely eat dairy and never butter.

    Olive oil and grape seed oil.
  39. bob crier from Toronto, Canada writes: Becel sponsors Heart and Stroke Foundation events. Go figure!!
  40. Marty Roy from Toronto, Canada writes: That the government is only trying to get manufacturers to cut back on transfat instead of eliminating it is, to me, insane. That Canadians are not outraged at it is equally so.

    Why? Transfat is proven to have mostly or only negative effects of the health of consumers. These effects can be countered by changing your diet to exclude them and by exercise and, if necessary, by drugs. The cost to society in medical care, pharmaceutical costs, and quality of life can be reduced by getting rid of this crap. It serves no purpose except to keep some "food products" looking fresher on the store shelves longer, thereby keeping profits up at the expense of the lives of those same consumers. The taxpayer is being screwed by having to pay for medical care necessitated by this toxin. We took up arms against tobacco because of cancer and the incredible pain and cost to lives. This is another scourge that needs dealing with.

    I am passionate about this as my father spent his later years eating more pills than food to maintain a body worn down by transfat and other lifestyle toxins. It's ironic that his doctor told him to use margarine instead of butter because of saturated fat, only to put him in the position of doing more damage than before. When he was retired, he would travel to Florida for the winter. One of his 2 large suitcases was exclusively to carry the prescription drugs he would need for the next five months. His daily regimen of pills necessitated keeping a schedule with him to show him which drugs to take at which times and with (or without) certain foods or before or after meals or whatever, whenever. He thought he was staying alive. He was only keeping the drug companies alive.

    Diet and exercise are the main remedies for poor lifestyles. But allowing the poisoners to 'reduce' the poison is ludicrous. Government should act to protect the lives and coffers of its citizens, not stretch out the pain.
  41. Marty Roy from Toronto, Canada writes: Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes: Here's an idea - how about the government butts out? If I want to eat margarine (which I don't, it's gross) I will. If I don't, I won't.

    People making choices. What a concept.

    Mark, to paraphrase a line from the movie "The American President," people would drink the sand in a mirage because they don't know an alternative exists. By your logic, if you want to poison yourself, you will. When the choice presented to you as healthy proves to be not only not healthy, but decidedly dangerous, it is not a viable choice. It is nonsense. Nobody chooses to poison themselves. They can't see the direct result of their "choice" because cause and effect of food (and tobacco) are not immediate. If I offered you strychnine, would you ingest it? No. You know it will kill you or make you very ill NOW. Is a slow and lingering death your choice?
  42. Jorly fuster from Canada writes: why should any food business lose money to make things more healthy. We're in it for the money not some Joe Sixpack's health.
  43. Two Pines from Ottawa, Canada writes: I see a conflict with the data given in this article at least with Olivina. On its packaging it says:

    0 grams of trans fats for Olivina.

    The article says: 0.8% of total fat or

    0.05 grams of trans fats per 10 gram serving of Olivina.

    Is Olivina's being misleading with its nutritional facts?
  44. bob london from Canada writes: Mmmmm, Buuttteeerrrrrr. Why kill yourself with a substitute? Butter is better for you and you need much less.
  45. D H from Montreal, Canada writes: You mean that you can't spread yourself thin with margarine?
  46. Ed Long from Canada writes: For umpteen years basic diet planning has included phrases such as close to the source, avoid processed, shop the outside aisles.

    Margarine doesn't fit.

    Butter does but beware of its contents if you have heart risk factors.
  47. Older'n Dirt from Belleville, Canada writes: Ed Long from Canada writes: Some years ago the Helsinki study looked at centagenarians around the world.

    Amongst the commonalities, daily walking in hilly environment, basic ignorance of world affairs, community respect accruing with age, was the eating of natural foods close to the source.

    Picking a tomato or buying a freshly picked one in a green grocer, drizzling it with olive oil, a slice of nice sharp local cheese, a slice of home made bread, a bit of local butter was all close to the source.

    Margarine is close to what? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    As I have been told, it is one molecule away fom it being plastic!
  48. a salajan from To, Canada writes: Ed Long from Canada writes: ...eating of natural foods close to the source.

    Picking a tomato or buying a freshly picked one in a green grocer, drizzling it with olive oil, a slice of nice sharp local cheese, a slice of home made bread, a bit of local butter was all close to the source.

    Ed,
    I googled it; they don't grow olives in my (or your) area.
  49. Tula Tam from Selkirk, MB, Canada writes: How about -- don't buy the damn donuts or fries! No one makes you buy the stuff.
  50. a salajan from To, Canada writes: Older'n Dirt from Belleville, Canada writes:
    As I have been told, it is one molecule away fom it being plastic!

    Older'n...that molecule might make a huge difference...such in: hydrogen is only a molecule away from nothing.
  51. Ed Long from Canada writes: a salajan ... canola is close to the source and available across Canada, a little bland.

    The Mediterranean diet program advocates olive oil because in the Med. olive oil is close to the source.

    But this is the big problem in Canada. The Fraser Valley, Vancouver, grows approx. 48% of our own food. No other region comes close. That is why high energy prices will affect food prices and quality in many areas of Canada will become difficult to obtain. It also explains why so much of our diet is crap.

    I moved here ten years ago for lifestyle, not economic reasons. Yesterday I picked 20lbs of raspberries to go with the 25lbs of strawberries last week, that will be frozen with next month's blueberries to provide me with anti-oxidants for my morning smoothie all year. My dairy products come from Washington State, just over the border. My fish is West Coast and wild. I buy local produce and meats year round. Olive oil is my out of area sin, and some nice Asiago.

    Older 'n Dirt ..... and sugar is one atom away from heroin.

    Ciao.
  52. a salajan from To, Canada writes: Ed Long from Canada writes: a salajan ... canola is close to the source and available across Canada, a little bland...... I buy local produce and meats year round.

    Ed,

    I will pass on the canola. Other than that...you are preaching to the converted. Every year I look forward for the "pick your own" season... I don't understand why people buy tasteless, plastic like fruits/vegies while local stuff is abundant - and available in grocery stores lately.

    However nothing beats my backyard tomatoes, herbs, peppers and green onions. First crop of cherry and grape tomatoes three weeks ago, yellow pepper, roma and beefstake tomatoes last week. My dilema every day: should I go for jalapeno, portuguese, cherry pepper or hot banana pepper?

    And all this on little urban lot... I can only imagine doing this on 1-2 acre in Okanagan. Maybe in another life.
  53. Ed Long from Canada writes:
    a salajan ... neat. When I lived in Regina, my backyard garden was my salvation during summer months.

    I grew up in a big farm family.

    The chickens, beef and pork were from the farm. We planted an acre of vegetables and berries at my aunt's farm. They were picked and frozen or preserved. Potatoes were kept in a cool cellar. My mother made all bread and baked products. A vacation to the Okanagan was an excuse to buy a load of fruit for preserves.

    We bought cod liver oil.

    This is simply not done today but economics may bring us part way back. Eating out on processed foods may become too expensive.

    My partner announced our fridge/freezer is not enough. A chest freezer is on the list.

    And I remember the margarine with the yellow color pack. Awful.
  54. Katherine R from Canada writes: a salajan from To and Ed Long, your backyard gardening stories are making me jealous... I only have a patio with a few herbs, plants and chilli peppers. Hoping to get a yard soon when I move back to the continent.

    I always thought people ate margerine because they thought it was healthier than butter. I thought this logic was flawed since butter spreads constitute a small percentage of one's total caloric intake. Now that everyone knows that marg is less healthy than butter, I can't believe anyone would buy it. The only good explanation as to why someone would eat marg over butter is if they are vegan.... even then, why not olive oil?
  55. The Work Farce from Canada writes: As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and they is us."
  56. Emma Hawthorne from Canada writes: Government needs to act to protect the public. Trans fat purveyors have had plenty of time to be good citizens. They simply don't care. It is not the public's problem anymore. There's no good reason for government not to ban trans fats immediately. We have had a long history of negligent governments allowing toxic products to be panned off on the public. It needs to end now.
  57. Murray Braithwaite from Canada writes: Hate to rain on the party, but butter contains trans fats, specificaly, conjugated linileic acid (principally cis-9, trans-11, C18:2 -- CLA) and trans vaccenic acid (trans-11, C18:1 -- TVA). However, the good news is that both of these are good for you. CLA is anti-carcinogenic, anti-atherogenic, anti-inflammatory, anti-diabetic and anti-adipogenic. TVA reduces undesirable metabolites of fat disgestion. TVA is formed by bio-hydrogenation of linoleic and linolenic acid in the bovine (or sheep or goat) gut by beneficial bacteria (butyrivibrio fibrisolvens) and CLA is formed mostly by the mammary glands from TVA. Thus hydrogenetaed fat can be beneficial--it is the product, not the process that matters.

    As to cholesterol, a total or LDL cholesterol reading alone is a crude measurement that does not indicate much, unless way out of line. Much more indicative of cardiovascular health are the levels of HDL, ratio of total cholesterol to HDL, VLDL, triglycerides, apolipoprotein B, apolipoprotein Lp(a), homocysteine, and C-reactive protein. Milk fat improves all of these.
  58. edward prior from Montreal, Canada writes: Nevertheless, in this Province, the industry will now dump unnecessary yellow dye into the mix if only in revenge for all the years that they were prevented from doing so.

    Diane Marie: my mom - a great baker, by the way - makes superb pie crusts using olive oil instead of shortning.

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