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Will arrest bring Serbia back to Europe?

DOUG SAUNDERS

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 10:41 PM EST 27/07/08

Doug Saunders reports from Belgrade ...Read the full article

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  1. Jerry Kitich from Canada writes: excellent article, it is time for the Balkans to become part of modern Europe, so when do we ask the Muslims & Croats in Bosnia to stop segregating their children in schools such as in Mostar, so they can be part of this new Europe too?

    so when do we arrest those responsible for expelling all the Serbs from Croatia, including those that our own Canadian Armed Forces engaged in combat with?

    & when do we pursue those responsible for attrocities committed by the Muslims & Croats against each other & the Serbs in Bosnia?

    there are no Serbs in Croatia as of the war & there are still plenty in Serbia, from which none were expelled

    we've got an international court in the Hague, lets use it & then get on with the task of building modern Europe
  2. ImaCANADIAN ! from Canada writes: "Canadian CF-18 Hornets ... dropped hundreds of bombs on the Serbian capital, the climax of a North Atlantic Treaty Organization action and Canada's first act of military aggression since the Korean War."

    Serbia/Bosnia/Kosovo seem to hold parallels to to the current situations in Iraq and Afghanistan (regime change to pro-Washington governments, ethnic violence, exploitation of religious divisions, drug trade funding, support of various armed groups):

    "Washington has systematically converted NATO into what can only be called the military vehicle of an American global imperial rule, linked by a network of military bases from Kosovo to Poland to Turkey to Iraq and Afghanistan."

    "... from Serbia to Georgia to Ukraine, Washington intelligence agencies have used NGOs, including the George Soros-financed Open Society foundations, the US Congress-financed National Endowment for Democracy, the Central Intelligence Agency-linked Freedom House and Gene Sharp's misleadingly-named Albert Einstein Institution to steer a wave of regime changes which became known as "color revolutions". In each case, the new regime was pro-Washington and anti-Moscow ..."

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central%5FAsia/JG16Ag01.html
  3. ImaCANADIAN ! from Canada writes:

    The US supported and funded Muslim forces in Bosnia in the early 1990s, under the leadership of the CIA-trained Afghan Mujahideen, infamous for their CIA-directed war against the Soviet Union from 1979-1989. In Bosnia, the Mujahideen were "accompanied by US Special Forces," and Bill Clinton personally approved of collaboration with "several Islamic fundamentalist organisations including Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda." In Kosovo, years later, "Mujahideen mercenaries from the Middle East and Central Asia were recruited to fight in the ranks of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) in 1998-99, largely supporting NATO's war effort." The US Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), the British Secret Intelligence Services (MI6), British SAS soldiers and American and British private security companies had the job of arming and training the KLA. Further, "The U.S. State Department listed the KLA as a terrorist organization, indicating that it was financing its operations with money from the international heroin trade and loans from Islamic countries and individuals, among them allegedly Usama bin Laden," and as well as that, "the brother of a leader in an Egyptian Jihad organization and also a military commander of Usama bin Laden, was leading an elite KLA unit during the Kosovo conflict."


    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9451


    In Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, there have been atrocities on all ethnic sides, in a vicious cycle of violence and revenge. Those responsible should face justice.


    In all these cases however, the US seems to have played a key role in escalating that ethnic/extremist violence, training, arming, and/or funding one side or the other, or one side then the other, for its own purposes.

  4. Belle Kurve from Canada writes: I think the author reversed the causal connection here when he states: "Europe almost lost Serbia by bungling its postwar treatment of the troubled state." I say this for two reasons. The story really lacks any appreciation of the long term transformation of the Balkans and Eastern Europe into a more peaceful and cooperative region that has seen countries become NATO member states and others, members of the EU. Serbia has been an obvious hold out but is undergoing positive transformation as well. Albeit this change is moving more slowly, largely because Russia has exercised its veto as disruptively as possible and through its economic assistance has given Serbia the means by which the country can continue confrontation and not cooperation. Second, journalists rarely look at other possible outcomes in establishing a benchmark for success. The situation in the Balkans could be much much worse were it not for EU reconstruction, the Stability Pact and extreme prudence from Serbia's neighbours despite provocation. The doomsayers and naysayers regarding Kosovo (and Montenegro) have thus far been proven wrong just as they were wrong about the uncertain futures of Macedonia, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, the Baltics, Bulgaria and Romania all of which are more peaceful and stable than they were 10 or even 5 years ago. So in sum, I ask why do journalists in this newspaper insist on constantly putting a negative spin on conflict situations around the world (especially the Balkans)? The situation in this region of the world could be far far worse and the reason it is not is due to Europe's and NATO's long term engagement
  5. Bill Needle from Canada writes: This comment is funny:"why do journalists in this newspaper insist on constantly putting a negative spin on conflict situations around the world "
  6. X Y from Toronto, Canada writes: The author of the article does not have enough and I would say good understanding of the situation. The infrastructure and institutions in Serbia were not rebuilt by Canadian or the US money - it still in process of building. There was money invested in many things. However, amount of the damage done by the NATO bombs and wrong politics - not only by Milosevic but the West - was much higher. Serbia was / is / and will be a part of Europe and the transformation is occuring because of primiraly citizens of the country. The reforms are difficult but overencompassing and lasting. The wars of 90's are over number of years ago and everyone, including many observers, should stop living in the past but concentrate on the current situation. The GDP growth rates in Serbia are since 2000 around 6% (well above all the Western economies). Most recent quarter was around 8%. It does not seem that will slow down anytime soon.
  7. Westcoast Dino from Canada writes: I guess the Balkans will forever remain the Balkans full of hate and murder. Drunken nationalistic machismo is so deeply rooted in their minds and will forever prevent them from living together successfully. It will continuely be a hotspot of the world that can and will probably again start a world war. When I think of this area, my belly always feels queasy. Mass murder and ethnic cleansing, from the bowels of hell.
  8. Not from here or There from Canada writes: Jerry, you are writing pure fantasy. There are Croats and Muslims who have been sent to the war crimes tribunal and convicted of war crimes. That there are more ethnic Serbs at the Hague reflects the fact that ethnic Serbs committed more crimes.

    And there are Serbs in Croatia; they have their own ethnic party and are represented in the cabinet of the current Croatian government.

    And don't forget that the population of Croats in Serbia has been reduced over 50% since 1991. There was no war in Serbia (Croatia did not invade) and yet entire villages (eg Hrkovci) were ethnically cleansed by Serbs.

    In looking towards the future, where all inhabitants of the region can enjoy human rights and the right to preserve their language, history, culture and religion, let's not succumb to propaganda. All of the successor states to the former Yugoslavia have to move forward and Serbia's success thus far is a step in the right direction.
  9. Ad Hoc from Canada writes: Bill Needle from Canada writes: This comment is funny:"why do journalists in this newspaper insist on constantly putting a negative spin on conflict situations around the world

    why is it funny? because the author worked "world" and "spin" into one sentence or because it is oddly phrased?
  10. Jerry Kitich from Canada writes: re not from (is that your real name?)

    really name some Croats that have been convicted & are currently serving time?

    the war was a civil war that started in Yugoslavia, not a case of Croatia invading Serbia, the Croats drove out all the Serbs from Krajina, I guess if there are two left they could have formed a puppet party but since all their voters were expelled what would the point be?

    your stat about 50% of Croats leaving Serbia is a complete fabrication, the population of Yugoslavia was almost 25 million when the war started, the population of Croatia today is 4.5 million minus all the Serb civillians you don't seem to care for
    Bosnia is 4 million itself today, almost as much as Croatia & Bosnia pre-war population was amongst the smallest of the Repulics in terms of population given its mountainous terrain & low development
    Serbia's population today is 10 million, its easy to see which Republic expelled people & which didn't

    you still haven't accounted for why Muslims & Croats won't let their children mingle together in schools & why its okay for the Kosovo Albanians to drive out Roma & burn their villages
  11. B I from Toronto, Canada writes: It's amazing that Serbian apologists still cling to this idea that the atrocities were even on all sides. The entire world has disspelled that post-war Serbian fantasy - even most Serbians inside their own country have began coming to grips with their shame, but then you have people like Jerry Kitch above who want to muddy the issue by going on the offensive against Croats and Muslims.

    Tell us Jerry, how exactly do the Serbians treat the Roma? Do they invite them into their homes and serve them Moussaka? It's funny you mention Croatian and Bosnian schools - which were often a favourite place from where Ratko Mladic's monsters would pluck young girls from. Clearly the Serbs were trying to eradicate segregation when their soldiers were separating the men and women to kill and rape respectively.
  12. Antonio San from Canada writes: "Doug Saunders is a London-based member of The Globe and Mail's European bureau"

    he used to be chief... so finally poor articles took their toll.
  13. Shay Gaetz from Chelm, Canada writes: Former United States Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger and former EC envoy Lord Peter Carrington participated in an unholy triumvirate with Milosevic to prevent the break-up of former Yugoslavia. Their actions were so egregious and one-sided (Eagleberger was even known as “Lawrence of Serbia”) that their interventions became totally ineffective and Yugoslavia’s break-up proceeded even bloodier than before. Not surprisingly, it was later determined both were paid lobbyists in the pay of Yugoslavian interests under the auspices of “Red Star Enterprises”. We as Canadians share in all this shame; witness Croatia's national treasures which were smuggled in Canadian Peace-Keeper duffel bags or those pitiful captive Muslim women who were gang raped in a camp known as Sonja's Kon-Tiki by our UN (even our own) troops under General Lewis MacKenzie. As always, those complicit were protected under Annan's protective blue UN umbrella. General Lewis MacKenzie is embraced by Serbs world-wide as their hero and champion. Of course, it is no secret he is also a paid lobbyist working on their behalf lobbying against the break-up of “Greater Serbia” built on the bones of victims of genocide - just as his predecessors strove to prevent the breakup of former Yugoslavia. Why? What’s happening here? Kosovo is sitting on one of Europe’s most concentrated and potentially most lucrative mineral deposits. The potential wealth of northern Kosovo’s Trepça Complex is so vast; it alone could solve all Kosovo’s desperate economic problems. This not about democratic decentralization or protection of Serbian religious and cultural heritage sites; this is all about Serbian Lebensraum and divvying up the spoils of war.
  14. Shay Gaetz from Chelm, Canada writes: In 1991, Seselj, the leader of the Serbian Radical Party boasted in Serbia’s parliament that his forces had "gouged the eyes out of a dozen Croats with rusty spoons" and claimed the only solution to Serbia's problems was to “cut the throat of every Croat and every Muslim”. Just last election, Seselj’s proxy only narrowly lost Serbia’s presidency in runoff elections.

    Kosovars have suffered at a minimum, attempted genocide at the blood-soaked hands of Serb chauvinism; a genocide forestalled by NATO intervention as a sidelined UN impotently wrung its hands. How can the world even dare suggest that Kosovars suffer in silence under continued Serbian hegemony? Before Serbia can petition its claims, it must thoroughly purge itself of the evil notions of its crypto-Nazi nationalist leaders who even today continue to rant about Greater Serbia, Slav racial purity, an Orthodox crusade against Islam, and medieval Kosovo - Serbia's so-called Jerusalem.

    As Germany a generation ago, Serbia too must reconcile itself with its woeful contribution to 20th Century history. Erasing the evils of “etnicko ciscenje" or "ethnic cleansing" will be a least a generation in coming.
  15. Danny Manning from Canada writes: This is one of the saddest chapters I can recall during my lifetime (I'm 35). All that said, the ancient hatred that these groups of people have toward one another is the reason(s) why it happens. If all the groups involved can't overcome their collective insanity toward one another, what can be done? I've read, watched and witnessed this stuff go on for the past 10-15 years and it never changes. The truth is, it's went on for a thousand years. Some of this insanity is being repeated by posters on this boards. They should be ashamed of themselves.
  16. Ad Hoc from Canada writes: Danny Manning from Canada writes: This is one of the saddest chapters I can recall during my lifetime (I'm 35). All that said, the ancient hatred that these groups of people have toward one another is the reason(s) why it happens. If all the groups involved can't overcome their collective insanity toward one another, what can be done? I've read, watched and witnessed this stuff go on for the past 10-15 years and it never changes. The truth is, it's went on for a thousand years. Some of this insanity is being repeated by posters on this boards. They should be ashamed of themselves.

    ______________________________

    There are a lot of "ancient hatreds" out there some might say even here in Canada. But only in a few cases do these hatreds result in large scale killing, ethnic cleansing and civil war. It takes leadership to manipulate emotions for personal, political and economic gains even if it means bloodshed. That is why Karadzic is on trial and not your average former Yugoslav citizen - be he or she a Croat, a Bosniac or a Serb.
  17. Jerry Kitich from Canada writes: So BI you are okay with civillians being killed as long as they are Serbian?

    I'm not an apologist, I just think the whole picture should be discussed, I'm not okay with civilians being killed no matter what their ethnicity. I don't have to ask who the victim was before I feel sorry. Apparently you do.

    The Croats & Muslims not allowing their children to have contact in the schools is a sad state of affairs, perhaps the Croats are still wary of the Al Qaeda connection, can't say I blame them.

    The entire west is now fighting Islamic extremists, or have you not noticed the war on terror, welcome to our war. Hope you have better luck than we did.
  18. Jerry Kitich from Canada writes: also re the Roma, Yugoslavia was known as one of the most fair countries in Europe towards the Roma, we didn't take their children, we didn't deport them like Canada does now when they refuse their refugee claims

    also you have your national dishes a bit wrong, when we do invite them into our homes we prefer to serve them something local not what they serve on the Danforth
  19. Tony D from Canada writes: Jerry Kitich, are you claiming that the Roma are refugees in Serbia, like they're here in Canada?! No wonder the extremists and fanatics are prospering among Serbs, the Serb public ignorance about peoples and history of the region is the main culprit.

    Let me give you an update on the War on Terror, you can't win against a tactic. A better term for the current war is "The War for Energy Security", some may say just Oil or Gas, but it's essentially Energy. You're six years behind the curve.
  20. Kathleen Degelder from Proxy Condoleeza Rice...................................., Canada writes: Drawn out and dry literary piece.---Too many international lawyers with special interests in the UN! The Hague yucky---Where is Rob Zombie when you need him.-----Human rights activists still attached to their umblical cords, can't distiguish (discrimination)----Dictionary:: Discrimination: To discriminate between good and evil. All is vanity saith the Lord.--- Brains short circuited by marijuana---
  21. Maurice Caissy-Cyr from Canada writes: Canada's first act of military aggression since the Korean War."-- where there is minority, there are cleansing, look all over the world. It start long time ago, and in the last 200 years, even US done it again indians, blaks.

    Even here in Canada, in 1970, Canadian governement send 5000 troop in Quebec, ready to kill anybody, quebecois of course, not fully responding to stay put and shut-up. Let say, that some quebecois had done something to respond, cleansing will had been done, be sure on Trudeau, just to make a point.

    5000 troop in quebec is a lot more than what we have in Afgan, a lot more what we send in Serbia. And like they do in Afgan and Serbia, they say they done that to have the people with them, to be love.

    I see the love here over Canadian troop, in quebec the lowess support, I see the love in Afgan with our troop and I see that Serbian are still loving us very much over the last 10 years. I could see how Serbian are filling, like the Afgan. To much loving bomb and killing from our canadian troop!!!
  22. Maurice Caissy-Cyr from Canada writes: To say more, on some quebec blog, guys like name themself-train 4- and poland something, saying former soldiers or current soldier be proud to say that regiment La chaudiere, where not making prisonners in world war 2.

    That is about the samething in martial court over US and lately Canadian, not to mention Somelia with dismentle of a regiment in dishonor. Serbia is the average with all other countrys concerning cleansing and torture. And we are part of it, and some are even proud of it. Shame.
  23. Jerry Kitich from Canada writes: Tony D, no I'm not claiming that Roma are refugees in Serbia like they are in Canada, its an interesting twistingof my words by you.
    I'm claiming that Canada does not treat Roma well by denying them when they claim refugee status here. I'm suggesting that the Kosovar Albanians do not treat them well when they force them to leave Kosovo. I'm claiming that many European countries took their children away but that Yugoslavia did not. I grew up among Roma in Yugoslavia, I'm well aware of their history & culture. I've broken bread with them.

    You can't fight a war against a tactic? I thought war was all about tactics. Our ally the US has declared a war on terror, good luck to them I say.
  24. Tony D from Canada writes: Jerry Kitich, you said and I quote: "...we didn't take their children, we didn't deport them like Canada does now...". When you say that you "didn't deport them" (implies)=>> you have the right/choice to deport them =>> they don't belong there, i.e not being born there, you might as well call them refugees.

    I didn't say you can't fight a war against a tactic, I said you CAN'T WIN a war against a tactic like terror which has been used since the beginning of human race. You can fight it, if you have the money to keep fighting it forever. What do you think Coalition Troops do when they knock down a poor Iraqi's front door in the middle of the night and point a gun at them, isn't that terror?
    It's like declaring war against masturbation, :-)), well good luck winning that one.
  25. Jerry Kitich from Canada writes: Tony, umm no, I said we didn't deport, them implying that other countries did in Europe, you should be a media spin person, you twist things better than a weaver

    Canada did win a war against terror in Quebec, or do you think the FLQ are still active there bombing mailboxes? this particular war is against the Islamic extremists that attacked the USA

    this myth of an endless enemy that can never be defeated is very convenient for the terrorists & their supporters but at the end of the day its just a myth, terrorists rely on tactics that make a relatively small group appear more powerful than they really are

    you might as well say we can't fight crime because crime will always be there & no your favourite activity is not a crime
  26. Morgan Macnair from Toronto, Canada writes: The Globe deserves to be congratulated for one of the most cool-headed directions in coverage of the arrest and for providing excellent contextual analyses. You really put the IHT/NYT and Guardian to shame on this one. Thorough research and intelligent writing by Doug Saunders are evident here, no matter the side from which you view this conflict.
  27. Clutch Cargo from Canada writes: Morgan Macnair from Toronto, Canada writes: The Globe deserves to be congratulated for one of the most cool-headed directions in coverage of the arrest and for providing excellent contextual analyses. You really put the IHT/NYT and Guardian to shame on this one. Thorough research and intelligent writing by Doug Saunders are evident here, no matter the side from which you view this conflict.

    and you are related in what way.....?

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