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Coffee, cookies but no cashiers

REBECCA DUBE

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 8:17 PM EST 03/08/08

When a business leaves payment up to the customer, what you do says a lot about you ...Read the full article

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  1. lary waldman from Qualicum Beach, Canada writes: I am sort of sorry that my comment really doesn't have much to do about the paying option, but more to do on how the health department allows people to pick through the offerings with hands that are certainly not certified clean and safe. It just seem disgusting to me, and another thing, money is one of the filthiest things we carry around. How can all this be allowed by what I would expect to be an active Health Department?

    Also and I guess more on point, what about debt cards, credit cards, customers open accounts? What is up with that?

    L Waldman@shaw.ca
  2. elise moser from Montreal, Canada writes: I don't think it's so much about honor, but more about community, which I why I love this idea. It brings people into the community of cafe-goers by offering them a way to participate, to belong. How great. Makes me want to go to Kitchener!
  3. Chrissy Simon from Canada writes: It wasn't mentioned in the article, but I'm sure it's frowned upon for customers to start sorting through the money box looking for their change so they probably make a bit extra whenever anyone doesn't have the correct change. I'm glad to hear this business is doing well, though. It's nice to know we don't always have to be monitored and basically forced to do the right thing.
  4. Cuban Cigar from Canada writes: Cool.
  5. Kay A from Canada writes: I'll have to stop in if I ever head to Kitchener. This sounds like a lovely, friendly place.
    Talking about butter tarts...I'll have to find one somewhere closer for now :)
  6. Rollo T from 8>), Belgium writes: lary waldman from Qualicum Beach, Canada writes: I am sort of sorry that my comment really doesn't have much to do about the paying option, but more to do on how the health department allows people to pick through the offerings with hands that are certainly not certified clean and safe
    -----------------------------------

    You would rather that a 'cashier' handled the food and the money? Normally there are tongs, plates for the customers, and 'nose shields.'

    What part of 'cash only' don't you understand?
  7. Two Cents from Canada writes: Quote of the day: "We price the bagel for you, but we trust you to pay it. Just like you trust us not to poison you."
  8. T Rogers from Vancouver, Canada writes: I would like to see them try this in Vancouver....
  9. jasper james from Canada writes: This is great. And I'm not disturbed about money handling/food handling etc. The same sort of thing happens at grocery stores where customers can choosse their own buns or cookies and then fork over their cash at the till. But the trust factor is what makes me happy. TRust people and they will be worthy of your trust; treat them like criminals and they'll start acting like criminals. Doesn't work 100% of the time, but in general, yes. People are basically upstanding when allowed to demonstrate that they're upstanding. They resort to bad behaviour when it seems to be assumed that they'll behave badly. This kind of system builds community, which is wonderful. kudos and best wishes.
  10. jasper james from Canada writes: T Rogers - Vancouver has had a trust system in place in its skytrains for years and if I recall, the percentage of people who didn't pay was in the range of 2% (proven, though they argued that it was higher). I took the skytrain daily and even though the skytrain police came through regularly to check fares, they rarely caught someone out. The bus system also operates on the honour system on some routes: on the busy routes, all doors open and if you have a pass, you can jump aboard anywhere. They generally don't check to see if you've actually paid.
    As for a cafe/bistro concept, this would work really well in many of the neighbourhoods and would quickly become popular in places like Commercial Drive, the West End/Davie and Dunbar. The cult aspect mentioned by Bergen would certainly play in, and Vancouverites like to think of themselves as progressive so this would play into their sensibilities.
  11. sandra littler from Canada writes: As a food and beverage server, in small town Southern Ontario, for the past 25 years, one of the greatest rewards has been discovering the honesty of my customers. I've found that treating people with care and respect will encourage them to do the same. The sense of community, or "we're all in this together" borders on the spirital. At the end of the day (literally), I am a very happy to have been part of the give and take with my fellow travellers on this earth, and know that they are too!
  12. Sacha G from Cambridge Ontario, Canada writes: I live down the street from this place, and while the food is great, and the whole ethic is something I totally dig...the workers are incredibly unfriendly. I've been there twice. The first time, I didn't know about the unorthodox pay system, and was very confused. I even asked allowed how things work, and no one stepped up to explain. I appreciate being trusted to fix my own coffee and not jilt the joint, but people HAVE to keep an eye out for first timers and let them know what's what. The article is bang on...the regulars do police, but they're like the cool kids in high school picking on the new kid. They sigh heavily, step around those who are new, and cast pointed glances at the uninitiated. I went for the second time with my boyfriend on the weekend, and while we were trying to navigate the coffee pot system (it was empty, we were trying to figure out protocol for getting new coffee) regulars behind us huffed and snickered. It's not that I expected teh staff to hop tooike Starbucks Barista-monkeys...but some friendliness and customer service, explaining the ethic and the paradigm, would go a long way. I hope they do read this...because right now they are preachign to the choir...their regulars, and tormenting those who are thrilled to have fair trade coffee but not really understanding of their novel and great paradigm. Also, the slogans on their chalk board are less cute and more preachy than people might care to read...haranguing people for driving to the store instead of walking...it's smug. It's a bit ironic that all this friendliness and trust and inclusivity is marred by the fact that it is supremely uncomfortable for people who are genuinely interested buy don't know all the unspoken rules.
  13. Lyn Alg from Canada writes: The honesty of your customers will depend on the location of the business. Can you imagine what would happen in the north end of Winnipeg or the northwestern part of Toronto or around Hastings St. in Vancouver? One would lucky to find one red cent in the payment box at the end of the day.
  14. Tom the Agnotheist from somewhere deep inside, Canada writes:
    .
    Clarification re: "It wasn't mentioned in the article, but I'm sure it's frowned upon for customers to start sorting through the money box looking for their change..."

    They us a streetcare fare box, where the money drops down a glass-covered chute, so you can see how much was deposited, but can't reach it to remove any.

    Just a FYI

  15. Eat your Weedies from Canada writes: I love it! The problem is that in a big city one idiot compensates for a 1000 honest people. Put the idiots together and -VOILA!- business is sunk. Sad really.
  16. A Big Black Dog With Two Tails from Leduc County ex St. John's, Canada writes: There is a section in Dubner's and Levitt's Freakonomics about bagels and donuts sold on the honour system. Expecting a 2% cheat rate is a mite too rosy, unless you're keeping some kind of eye on the customers.
  17. Kieran Green from Ottawa, Canada writes: Note that Canadian muscian Jane Siberry was doing this long before Radiohead.
  18. mighty conan from Calgary, Canada writes: Refreshing story after the whiny waiter article. = )
  19. Captain Canada from Canada writes: I have been to the Kitchener location and the system really isn't all that confusing. Btw, the food is great.
  20. RD Lone from Vancouver, Canada writes: Anyone who has tried this at Halloween with candy knows this does not work. Maybe in a small community..
  21. Saskatchewan Seal Hunter Club from Canada writes: Great idea in someplaces..........would be a disaster in many places like Toronto.
  22. Just Hmmm from Canada writes: I love how it is the people who do not live in Toronto slamming Toronto. There are some neighborhoods in Toronto where I suspect something like this could be very successful. Some where it would fail miserably.
  23. Richard Daystrom from Toronto, Canada writes: I agree that the concept is probably location dependent. I was in No Frills today in Cabbagetown (which is bordered by poor neighborhoods St James Town and Regent Park) and there are security cameras, anti-shoplifting sensors at every cashier and only one way into the store. I don't think it would work there.
  24. don diego from Canada writes: RD Lone - are you really comparing the actions of adults to kid nirvana ie. free candy!?!??

    If adults can't act better than a bunch of 5 - 10 year olds, then we do indeed have a societal problem...
  25. H.F. Wolff from Cambridge, ON, Canada writes: The commentators' recurring theme of 'community' is interesting.

    Years ago I sold sets of original design plans internationally, after I had an article published in an international specialist magazine with quite a limited circulation at that time of 24,000 or so every 2 weeks.

    Some years after publication I still received inquiries from many parts of the world regarding the price. To save time I simply mailed the plans to the inquiring party with the statement that the price was unchanged. Unfailingly the money was sent by return! A friend, who is in a related business in a much more grandiose way over several decades related similar experiences. He also mailed his product to inquiring parties, and in 30 years or so he was stiffed only once by someone from Toronto!

    Consequently, much credence may be given to the conclusion that this sort of business model may work very well in a relatively small and well defined community, one in which the majority of members identifies with similar morals and aspirations.

    As the definition of 'community' is expanded to include individuals with less core identification, the losses may be expected to be greater. The 2% loss experience related above is an interesting statistic, and the expansion thereof would form a worthwhile research project.

    H.F. Wolff
  26. Gogh Forit from Canada writes: Throughout Canada there are roadside stands where at this time of year, farm products are offered for sale. Almost all are on a trust basis. Yesterday as we were leaving PEI there was one of these many roadside stands selling freshly dug new potatoes and bags of yellow beans.
    If you're the type of person who will take not only the produce and not pay or take both, you have to be some type of sub-human species.
    Trust is a precious commodity that has been dwindling away as we become more "progressive" as a society.
    Kudos to this restaurant that still trusts its customers enough to continue this form of payment.
  27. happy expat from United States writes: It remminds me of a test I once read about, conducted by an elementary school teacher. After she had given out final grades for the year, she told her class that she had ''lost'' the file with the grades in it, and she needed the students to tell her what their final grades were. The results were something like 95% responded with the correct grade, 3% overstated, and 2% actually understated.
  28. No Name Necessary from Canada writes: I live in TO and I would go to this place. Like a previous poster said...it depends where in TO is would be located. The idea wouldn't work everywhere.
  29. Mr. Coffee from Victoria, Canada writes: I believe in karma. If some petty thief thinks they can do the dine 'n dash, one day they will get their comeupance.
  30. Sudip Adhikari from Toronto, Canada writes: Toronto is not that bad. Go trains still operates. We still give you the right direction, if asked. Please don’t get fooled by the media. They mostly get paid to bring the bad news to us.
  31. dave ross from Canada writes: So, once you put your money in the transit fare box does Kitchener Transit pull up to the front door and let you on?
  32. Middle Class from The Big City, Canada writes: We are so blessed to live in a world like this.

    I lived in London Ontario for about 3 years and I felt that the whole community is so embracing the idea of honest system. I loved it.
  33. David N from Toronto, Canada writes: It was some years ago, but once when in Japan I went to a bookstore that had many books on tables outside the store but no staff watching them. I decided on a book to purchase and went inside to pay for it. There was no check-out or staff on the first floor. The staff and the till were located on the second floor!

    Wandering around a Tokyo entertainment district late one night a gentleman approached me and explained that I had dropped my wallet, which he returned with a smile and off he went.
  34. Adrian C from Canada writes: I get my bread every now and then from this place, the Kitchener location (did not know they have a second location). My personal opinion is that they make the best bread in town. I wish they would make more of it though, during the week I can't get any, after work hours they are sold out for sure, once I inquired about this and was told they have bread by 2-3 PM at most.
    I hope that as they grow the business the service and quality remains the same, or improves.
    Also, the staff is friendly at this location.
  35. Adrian C from Canada writes: Just remembered, years ago I visited the bazaar in Turkey - Istambul, there's tons of stuff clothes, shoes, jeans even gold on every store front .. would be easy to snatch something. But I hear they chop your arm if you get caught so I guess that is somewhat of a deterrent.
  36. Mikey Gault from Hippie Town, Canada writes: Like most sane people, I didn't live in Kingston. If I did I would go to this store and take 6 cookies and leave. These people at the store sound more nauseating than those jerks at Starbucks.
  37. mojo monkee from Canada writes: Souds like a good idea, but do their prices reflect the service? If they are charging a $1.50 for a coffee and the place next door serves a comparable product at the same price AND employs a kid to serve it, then my money will go to the place that keeps people employed and not more profit to the owners.
  38. Iain's Opinion from Canada writes: When I was just a lad of 10 or so, I saw a Bonanza epsidoe where Little Joe and Hoss opened a livery stable with no prices, they called it a ding joint. Now 40 years later we have a ding joint coffee shop. As in the show, these operators will make more than if they just charged rates.
  39. Iain's Opinion from Canada writes: When you look at these honor systems, don't compare governmental ones with private ones. Many of us want to stick the government, likely becasue we don't perceive value received.
  40. Bill Hopkins from London, Canada writes: What a refreshig alternative to you-know-what! This is a feel-good story for sure.
  41. Jim Goodwin from Canada writes: Mikey Gault, that says more about you than the business. You are amongst the 2 percent that ruin things for everyone else. This is a nice positive story about people and trust. But I can see there are many here who are pessimists. I can remember buying pumpkins in Prince Edward County for Hallowe'en from a hay wagon loaded with them and a cookie tin, nobody around. It is a good feeling to be trusted. I once returned over 400 dollars of merchandise to a major store because they insisted on inspecting my bags on my departure. People dwell too much on the negative and not enough on the positive. This is a nice positive story.
  42. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: With such initiatives, there are always positives and negatives. But one of the best positives I experienced was a large manufacturer in Germany who allowed its workers to start and finish without clocking in or out. The employees loved it and were NEVER LATE IN ARRIVING NOR EARLY IN LEAVING because, in many instances, it served to allow couples to manage without a baby sitter for their children as they each worked eight hours with eight hours in between to allow for travel time and family life. It turned out to be a great success. Could that work in Canada? I know a lot of neighborouring countries in Europe where it would be impossible; it all depends on the general character makeup of the cultures ????
  43. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: Actually, our GO TRAIN system emulated the system in Germany which worked on the Honour System; as far as I know, it works fairly well here even though it is necessary to have conductors available for regular checks. Maybe, as time does by, the GO TRAINS will emulate the German system of having a first class compartment -at an extra fare, of course.
  44. coming up on 55 from Canada writes: There s a little golf course in Burnt Church New Brunswick that operates like this. Granted its not Agusta National but it adds something to your game and your view of the world
  45. S G from Montreal, Canada writes: The honour system can work in large-scale initiatives too. Copenhagen, for example, has the equivalent of an honour system with its bicycle locks -- put in a few kronor (equivalent to about $1-$2) and you get the use of a bike from that location. The idea is, you lock it into a new lock at your destination so that the next person there can use it. You could just ride off with it, and use it as your own...or steal it and sell it for parts, or re-paint it and sell it as a new bike. Any of those options will make you a massive profit. But it's really rare for that to happen, because no one will want to pay for a new bike when all they have to do is spend a few kronor a day to use the ones available nearby -- never having to worry about a bike getting stolen! Notice that the cities mentioned as failures for the free bikes plan are all in the USA -- sadly, that's a nation where the honour system is mostly dead. Let's hope that Canada can learn from the success in Kitchener and bring it back in more places...
  46. Chuck the Canuk from anytown, Canada writes: just another gimmick to save on labour for the owners. i am not impressed. let them employ more people and "charge " the people at a cashier. i pay wherever i go anyway, so why should i pay them for serving myself? just like the self serve idiot exits at the loblaws superstores in atlantic canada. they make more profit for the owners and allow them to lay people off. just a gimmick, people, don't be fooled.
  47. Marley B from Vancouver, Canada writes: jasper james from Canada: I am sorry to burst your bubble but it must be done. I love my city of Vancouver dearly and the good things about it outweigh the bad - for now. When I read comments from folks like yourself I always scratch my head. There is not a snow balls chance in you-know-where that you lived or live in Vancouver. I have lived in the West End for 15 years and I can tell you that if it is not nailed down it is toast.

    Drug culture has permeated every facet of this city. The reason we have an honour system on our buses now is because drug addicts were punching bus drivers in the face when they were asked to pay like everyone else. In order to minimize security risks for drivers the fare enforcement was removed for drivers. It was not because they thought the honour system was a priority for honest folk. As for Skytrain: they are retroactively installing turnstiles soon because the honour system has not been a success as you proclaim. The revenue loss and security risk has created this need.

    Scum bags steal everything from bikes, patio furniture, film equipment from productions(from a foreign documentary crew doing a piece on how nice Vancouver was) and shake down every tourist and old lady for her pension. In the West End(the largest and oldest downtown neighbourhood), d addicts will smash car windows regularly, steal purses and bags and even case the outdoor pool at 2nd beach!!

    While ideally I would like to believe in your Utopian cafe vision of neighbourhoods like Commercial Drive, the West End/Davie and Dunbar the reality is something much more tangible. Especially to every resident that has been harassed for money daily, had something stolen or my favourite - someone begging for your food or money while sitting on said cafe's patio.

    No Jasper James. Bravo to Kitchener! This is great idea. But in a city and province where the pay before you gas has to be mandated - I don't think so.
  48. Tony . from Waterloo, Canada writes:
    Hmm, interesting, I've walked and biked past this place dozens of times but never actually been inside. I'll have to check it out sometime.

    For those wondering about the location and neighbourhood, there's nothing too fancy about this area. Nice enough, but certainly very 'middle class' for the most part. A few blocks away is one of the nicest parts of Kitchener (Victory Park area), but a few blocks in the other direction and you've got a bunch of run-down abandoned warehouses. Mind you, that sort of mix is pretty much standard throughout Kitchener.

    With the exception of some really sketchy areas I'm guessing the difference probably wouldn't be much. However what would probably make a difference is if people feel any sort of connection to the owners. If they're local, small business owners they'll probably do a whole lot better than a large national or multinational corporation.
  49. Marley B from Vancouver, Canada writes: Well, maybe you did live here but it's not how you remember it was. I wish it was but it isn't. :-( The progressiveness that you mentioned is alive but it usually gets channeled into saving a tree.
  50. Jeff Kelly from Kitchener, Canada writes: The cafe is really a lovely spot, and the staff are courteous and friendly... A couple of other posters have said the setup was confusing and people were rude... Can't imagine that. It's a mostly idiot-proof setup anyway, with signs telling you where things are and where to pay. The staff can make change too, and it says so; you just have to ask. There's definitely something to be said for so open and trusting an establishment. Their bread is good too, but the real treat are the tarts... The butter tarts are good, but the rhubarb tarts are amazing.

    The pizzas are also good, if you like fussy stuff on them... Not really my thing though.
  51. Misery Lastname from Angus, Canada writes: Certainly sounds utopian but add humans to the mix what do u have?
  52. Sue W from Canada writes: What a great idea.

    I'd like to implement this for the City of Toronto councillor and staff salaries, but I doubt an audit at the end of the year would produce the same results or success in collecting as this bakery.
  53. Lea Nicolet from Fenin, Switzerland writes: It si actually very "refreshing" reading articles like the one about the café in Kitchener: whatever socialogical, economic or political comments have been made, iI believe t comes down to people, being honest and socially responsible. We live now in Switzerland, and in the countryside it is very common to see small huts where veggies (most of the time already picked) or flowers are offered for sale (prices written up on a sheet of paper); there are knkives to cut the flowers, prices are color coded and one walks among glads, lilies, dahilias, snapdragons, make a bunch, put the knife back and pay. Very seldom is somebody there to check that people pay. it is also true that the money boxes are usually bolted down. While I don't think this pay as you pick is so special, it gives me a sense of freedom, knowing that somedy (a person I don't know) trusts "me" thinking I'll pay for the fruits of his'her labour.
  54. jasper james from Vancouver, Canada writes: Marley B. I lived in Vancouver for 11 years. Just moved this past spring. I lived in four areas: Fairview Slopes,Dunbar, VictoriaDrive/33rd, and finally renfrew heights. I also took transit all the time as I don't drive. The introduction of the upass increased transit ridership immensely and necessitated the honor system on buses, particularly the 99 B line leaving from Commercial or UBC. The skytrains have been on the honor system for as long as they've existed, and that was before the drug problem got out of control. I got on and off at Renfrew Station daily and went through Commercial at least twice a week. There was never a problem. Commercial Drive is ripe for a system like this. Speaking to a merchant on the Drive (the mediterranean specialty foods guy; he used to be up by the purdy's on kingsway) he said that he gives food away to the homeless people. He told them to ask him if they were hungry, rather than to steal, and since then they look out for him and his place. It works really well for him. I'm sure other merchants on the drive take a similar approach. I don't know the West End that well; I know that property crime is a problem. However, in my 11 years in the city, I've never had anything stolen and nothing broken into (and there were two grow ops within a block of our place on Victoria Drive).

    so yes, I've lived there, and yes I think it would work.
  55. Stephen McPherson from Newmarket, Canada writes: I've only been stiffed once for payment and it was someone from Toronto who had way more money than anyone possibly needed. I guess it goes to prove the old addage that rich people are rich because they spend other peoples money.
  56. sam pitroda from Canada writes: Honor system typically works only for small amounts of money where the penalty of shame is higher than the value of not paying.

    With larger amounts of money people start justifying their actions rather than feel shame.

    I'am pretty sure that the people who won't dream of cheating their local bakery won't have any qualms about cheating on taxes , inflating their resumes or overbilling their employer or client.

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