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Latinos on the move

JOHN IBBITSON

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 9:33 PM EST 04/08/08

In the first six months of this year, 39 states passed at least 175 immigration laws ...Read the full article

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  1. J M from Canada writes: The magnitude of the leakage of expenditures in the US is great with most consumers buying products not made in America. It is much easier to persecute an ethnic group, which is perceived as taking (the least desirable) jobs away from Americans than it is to persecute irresponsible policies or big business (the 'other' Uncle Sam).
  2. Mindfully Partisan from Ottawa, Canada writes: Most Latinos living illegally in the U.S. actually pay taxes. For the most part they are law-abiding people who just want to be left alone to make a living mostly doing jobs Americans refuse to do. They contribute enormously to the American economy and get next to no support or entitlements in return. The American economy would be much worse off if it were not for the availability of compliant, low-wage latino labour.
  3. Blasphemous Apostate from Cahones, Mexico writes: Yeah, lets encourage people that are in a country ILLEGALLY to stay. So what if they are in violation of the law. Big deal - let them reap the benefits of their ILLEGAL actions and presence.

    Yeah, lets encourage the Americans to allow ILLEGAL aliens to remain in their country....so what if they do not know if some of those people are rapists, murderers, fraudsters or drug dealers from Mexico...they are, after all, contributing to America. Besides, the whole immigration process is such a bore....why bother to do criminal history checks....why bother to determine if the people who wish to enter are too ill or too old to work.....

    Sheesh, you bleeding hearts would give away the farm if it weren't for more reasonable people amongst us that were willing to call you on your reckless behavior....
  4. Ballin Munson from toronto, Canada writes: Mindfully Partisan, Several economists have tackled this one in the US. The result? Illegal immigrants create their own jobs, and do not take jobs others would not do. The amount that they repatriate to their home countries, is a net drain.

    Several European countries have done studies on immigration, and the result? Neutral.

    The argument that all they want to do is work, is questionable, at best, as a benefit. There must be rules for people to enter a country. Let us say one liked Harvard, as a university. Simply hanging around the campus, and perhaps doing menial tasks, would not entitle you to a degree.

    Similarly, just moving to the US, and working under the table, does not entitle one to residency, or citizenship.
  5. J M from Canada writes: Blasphemous Apostate from Cahones, Mexico:

    If illegal Latino migrants were doing something different than other migrant groups that came to the USA or Canada throughout the history of these countries, you might have a case. However, legal or illegal, people have been coming to these countries and committing themselves to labour in order to come out ahead. Tell me how this entire group should be judged separately.
  6. Ballin Munson from toronto, Canada writes: J M the difference has to do with the premise the great waves of the 19th., and 20th Century were conducted under. The admiting countries (as Canada is currently) had programs, processing, etc. to admit people.

    The current latino migration, is undocumented. For example, the city of Irving Texas, has come under fire, for alerting the INS when they have someone undocumented in custody, after being arrested on suspiscion of commiting an offence. Originally, when this hit the news, the supposition was that the police were targeting latinos. The truth, is that people were being arrested, and simply had absolutely NO documentation. No license, nothing. No proof what soever who they claimed to be. This is intolerable for any society, irrespective of how hard many of these people work.
  7. Festina Lente from United States writes: As one who has read alot of John Ibbotson's commentaries of America over the years, I would not put too much faith in them. Personal opinion, ofcourse! His explanation to the readers of the G&M on the American electoral system was a classic...one of unfolding dissimulation! He struggled and struggled and excited his readers...but isn't that the way of most writers of the G&M? And now an expert on the illegal Latinos!
  8. Buzz Mansoor from United States writes: Latinos on the move - Until we hear that illegals are backed up at the border, waiting to cross back into Mexico, please don't allow yourself to be convinced that they are leaving. They are only leaving a "few" selected areas where great pressure is being exerted on them.

    For those that believe that:

    most Latinos living illegally in the U.S. actually pay taxes.

    No they don't and the obes that do pay taxes, pay very little in taxes. They don't earn enough to pay much in taxes and they claim umpteen exemptions.

    For the most part they are law-abiding people who just want to be left alone to make a living mostly doing jobs Americans refuse to do.

    Latinos illegally use forged, falsified, and stolen identities to take jobs away from Americans.

    They contribute enormously to the American economy and get next to no support or entitlements in return.

    The average illegal costs American taxpayers over $9,000.

    The American economy would be much worse off if it were not for the availability of compliant, low-wage latino labour.

    Wrong, the American economy would be much better off without illegals in our country. The more illegals that come, the more it costs American taxpayers.

    Comprende??
  9. J.C. Davies from Canada writes:
    To quote Lisa Simpson on illegal immigrants:

    "Their only crime is breaking federal law."
  10. Duane Freemantle from writes: No they are actually moving to areas of less discrimination. It strongly suspected that those that are legally in America are moving to. When you are consistently harassed you have two options take legal action to move to areas that are more tolerant.
  11. Sean Williams from Toronto, Canada writes: Having a country with too many illegals in it is like one of those teenage "open house" parties where the owner of the house has no idea who all these people are showing up. The next morning, the whole house is wrecked.
    There are several shades of illegals. Some contribute, some don't. We shouldn't generalize, after all, how do we know? They're illegal- there's no way to know if they're contributing or not.
    Would you like to take your car to a garage, and have an illegal to work on your car? Somebody who's been trained in the wrecking yards of Mexico City? How about your roof, or the electrical wiring in your house? How do you know the job is done to standard? Just because somebody is cheap labour, doesn't mean that they are any good. Low-cost labour lowers the quality of the work, and drives down wages in general.
  12. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: I just love the smug opinions Canadians offer up on this subject. If we bordered on Mexico instead of the US, we'd be dealing with this same problem. There are no easy answers to the illegal alien problem in the US. There is also little doubt that millions of illegal or formerly illegal immigrants - mostly latinos - are working hard and doing jobs Americans themselves don't want to do. But is it realistic to expect a country to just completely ignores immigration scofflaws??? The US absolutely MUST do something, whether that something includes building a massive security wall like Israel or something else. How can a country even operate a functioning immigration system when it allows millions to ignore the process and just walk in??? That simply isn't a feasible plan for the long run. SOME sort of crackdown has to happen. A country that cannot even establish the viability of its own borders is scarcely a country at all.
  13. Darlene Wilder from United States writes: "Illegal invaders contribute greatly to the economy"

    "Illegal invaders leaving due to failing economy"

    OXYMORON
  14. George BrownIII from Christmas Island writes: Howabout Canadians b!tching about americans stealing healthcare in Canada with forged documents.
  15. George Khan from Suburbia, Canada writes: The hypocrisy shown by many Americans (and by some Harper's lovers alike) is just revolting, dangerously resembling Spain's Inquisition times or pre-Nazi Germany.
    Now illegal Latino immigrants seem to make good scapegoats, so we can comfortably blame them for pretty much everything wrong happening to America, namely crime, recession, unemployment and general misery. So why bother asking ourselves whether G.W.'s flagrant incompetency might have had something to do with this collapse? USA's been getting illegal Latino immigrants for quite a while, since many years before Bill Clinton even started dreaming about running for office. Yet, by the time he left office, America was more prosperous than ever, and, make no mistake, it made a wonderful use of cheap illegal Latino labor.
    The immigration system may still need an overhaul, to better filter out bad elements, so does the government itself. USA can't afford getting another G.W.
  16. too old from Canada writes: Ballin If you refer to the studies of European immigrants in the economic sense then I might agree that the impact is neutral however the studies on the social impact have been anything but neutral.

    The immigrants mostly from North Africa and the middle east have had a profound impact on Europe and this impact is continuing to grow.

    In the not too distant future the Europe we knew and know will not longer exist.

    The Mexican immigrants are an entirely different issue and by and large are trying to live the life we do in the same manner as we do.

    The problem is that they are illegal and have performed an illegal act by entering the States without proper clearance.

    Should be interesting to watch this play out.
  17. drunk wookie from TO, Canada writes: This CONTINENT is hispanic. North americans don't reproduce. In one hundred years you'll be speaking spanish. Or your daughter will...
  18. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: George Khan,
    I think that the Americans have a right to design and enforce their own immigration laws. You can bet that we do here in Canada. And quite frankly, I think there is something fundamentally wrong with rewarding people who break laws and in the process indirectly punish people who do things legally. Why should some people wait in line, when others rush ahead of the line.

    As for the argument that Mexicans only do jobs that Americans won`t do, that is simply not true. I have spent signifcant periods of time in the U.S and an influx of cheap labour in such a large magnitude increases the supply of labour, which must result in decreased wages in certain industries. It is simple economics. Most of the construction workers I have seen in certain areas don`t even speak English and most of them appear to be Mexican. Are you telling me an American wouldn`t want to do that job or that they don`t want to do the job at ridiculously low wages. There is a difference.

    And by the way, George Khan, people like you, spewing nonsensical arguments are the reason why for the first time in my life, I am not going to vote Liberal.
  19. Kirk Davies from Shenzhen, Canada writes: Sounds like China. Last night a friend of mine (along with about 30 other foreigners) was rounded up in an area of Shenzhen with a lot of foreigners and put into lockup overnight because they weren't carrying their passports on them!
  20. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: Georgia is the US's main producer of onions. Some years ago, the INS initiated a crackdown on illegals working on the onion farms. It didn't take very long for the owners of the farms to raise a stink. The senior Senator from Georgia, who has been known to make a lot of noise about illegal aliens "robbing" the good 'ol boys of jobs reacted swiftly and surely to the concerns of his constituents.

    How did he address these concerns?

    Well, he very quickly and permanently shut down the INS operation.

    The farmers were happy. They could keep on making a profit on the backs of the cheap labour the illegals were providing.

    The illegals were happy. They got to keep working for much better wages than they could get at home. Even if the working conditions were brutal, and no benefits like health care were available.

    And, most importantly, the American consumers - sorry, I meant to say citizens - were happy. They continued to get cheap onions. And they didn't need to worry their pretty little heads about why the produce they bought was so cheap.

    These "initiatives" to "deal with" illegal immigrants are way too funny. Especially since not a single one of the loudmouths whining about the "lost job opportunities" would be caught dead doing the work these illegals do for the pay they get or under the conditions they live and work.

    If these rascist xenophobes were willing to put their money where their mouths are, the might have a case. But they aren't. So they should STFU. And deal with reality.
  21. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Arriba arriba.

    Undulay, undulay.

    Meep meep.
  22. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: Orest Zarowsky, Illegal immigrants in the U.S don't just work in fields. Where are you getting your information? Many work in construction, government, restaurants, etc. If you were a construction worker in the U.S and saw your wages spiral downard due to an influx of poor labour, you'd probably be upset too, and rightfully so. Furthermore, there are legal channels in place for employers to get visas for guest workers. Your assumption that people who want the rule of law to prevail in their country are racist xenophobes is a knee-jerk reacation. I guarantee you that if a bunch of Canadians endlessly streamed into the U.S and set up camp, there would still be outrage. The welfare state cannot survive an endless stream of poor people entering the country. Think about it, some estimates place the number of illegal immigrants in the U.S as high as 30 million. That is about the same population that lives in Canada. These people require medical care (and yes they do get emergency medical care), education (many have a lot of kids), access to other social programs such as pre-natal care.....The list goes on. Who do you think pays for this? The American taxpayer. And it is doubtful that these people are paying very much, if anything in taxes. There are American citizens who would prefer to pay more for some of their consumer goods in order that employers can pay their employees a good wage. So they are willing to put their money where their mouths are. And I should point out that without the huge volume of illegal workers, many people would not have to work for ridiculously low wages and in terrible conditions, because the supply of labour would go down, likely resulting in a correspoinding increase in wages. It is simple economics. This has nothing to do with the fact that a large volume of these illegal immigrants are Hispaniuc, but that they are not properly processed and poor.
  23. Brian Dell from formerly Edmonton now Stockholm, Sweden writes: The way to deal with illegal immigration is by having free trade. Let them make and grow stuff in their home countries and then buy their products.

    The Democrats in Congress are holding up a trade deal with Colombia. The result is going to be that that Colombians will swim the Rio Grande in order to get American dollars. Logically, you'd think that wouldn't work, because if Americans didn't have sympathy for them in Colombia, why would they have sympathy for them in America? Because, for the left, once they've crossed the border their interests now count for humanitarian reasons. The typical left wing thinker, you see, is more concerned about minimizing suffering in the particular than in the abstract. Colombian right on the doorstep? We must help him. Colombian in Colombia? Too far removed in time and place.

    If the left got too "de-particularized" in their thinking, you see, they'd end up holding the same positions as academic economists, who are pro-trade and pro-markets.
  24. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: I would like to add that a sovereign nation should have the right to implement an immigration policy that benefits the nation. In fact, they have a responsibility to their citizens to do just that. The U.S has an immigration scheme that promotes diversity, and to suggest that any desire to enforce that policy is evidence of racism is ridiculous.
  25. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: Brian Dell,

    You make some very intersting points, which I will ponder. Might I suggest, however, that Americans should be concerned about helping Americans first and foremost? One might suggest that they could crack down on illegal immigration by enforing their laws in the workplace as well?
  26. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: Brian Dell,

    I am not an economic expert, but I think I have heard it argued that NAFTA has actually exacerbated poverty in Mexico is a main reason why illegal immigration to the U.S has not stopped and possibly even increased. Unfortunately, I have not heard the argument made in detail. If there is any substance to this argument, than free trade might not be the answer.

    Quite frankly, I support free trade between countries with similar standards of living, similar labour protection laws and similar environmental standards. Free trade between countries like the U.S and Mexico, though....I am not sure that is such a great idea.
  27. Brian Dell from formerly Edmonton now Stockholm, Sweden writes: Economists know that the US Farm Bill undercuts farmers in developing countries. So where are those agricultural workers going to go? To the US, of course, where a good chunk of that subsidy money gets distributed to them as wages.

    It's ironic because the protectionist sentiment behind the Farm Bill is a form of nativism. The result, however, is more of them "them thar foreigners", who cross the border to take advantage of policies that favour operations on one side of the border and hurt the other side.
  28. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: Brian,

    I see your point, but one might suggest that a food supply is really a national security issue and that it is therefore prudent to promote agriculture with one's sovereign borders in order to ensure a food supply. Also, it is important to be able to have regulatory control over an industry that can adversely affect the health and safety of one's citizens.

    Now I am not an expert on the U.S Farm Bill, so my points may be very misguided. I think I will actually try and learn more about it tomorrow.
  29. Ballin Munson from toronto, Canada writes: Sean Williams is correct on the "house party" analogy. Everyone wants to have at least a passing idea of who is "inside". Remember the Candian uproar a few year ago about the abandoned ships of B.C., which probably transported a few thousand illegals from China? The other posting on increasing the avaiable pool of labor is also correct. As well, I have no sympathy for the millionaire farmers, and other business people who can only exist, by employing people at less than the going rate. Another factor that Canadians don't understand is the "American Dream" aspect. Economist David Card noted that when he taught at Harvard, all the professors cut their own grass, but when he went to Stanford (in California) all the professors had maids, lawn service etc. Most Americans believe they deserve the "highest" standard of living in the world. Hence they eat eat out more (at low - cost restaurants, which allows them to believe it is less expense than eating at home), have cleaning service, etc. Doctors cut their own grass in Toronto. Fast - food restaurant assistant managers in Tulsa, or San Bernadino have law service. However, this comes at a cost. A recent article in the NY times stated that Parkland Hospital in Dallas had a $250 million shortfall last year from upaid bills by illegals. The municipal taxpayer is funding that one. The cheap restaurant meals, and low cost lawn service has a cost, one way or another.
  30. too old from Canada writes: Stephanie I also spend a significant amount of time in the States in the South West.

    You are correct that the illegals are everywhere and doing all kinds of jobs such as building construction, road construction, retail, golf courses, tourism etc. etc.

    In Arizona Janet(Dem Gov. ) signed a bill that provides significant penalties for those employing illegals including loss of business license. Nobody paid any attention to it and it was business as usual until the Sherrif of Maricopa country took it on himself to start to enforce the law. He has rounded up hundreds of illegals and shipped them back and layed charges against the employers, in accordance with the law.

    The Mayor of Phoenix has been screaming against the Sherrif and calling him all the good names such as this deep thinker (Orest) has in his post (usually never read anything he posts as he is not too bright).
  31. too old from Canada writes: Stephanie Further to the above. At our golf course in Arizona as soon as the above Bill started to be implemented by the Sherrif thee was an exodus of workers. Within a week there were black fellows and white fellows performing the tasks done by the Mexicans at the course. One of the Blacks said that the illegals were taking the jobs normally done by them and now that they were less of a factor things were changing.

    Also there was a real change in the local retailers as you now find many older people employed where there were Mexicans before.

    These employment situations are not the fault of the Mexicans but the employers and I might add that many of the employers are legal Mexicans who have made it.

    I have really watched the Mexican workers and have found them hard working, pleasant with a desire to work but just wish they were legal as there is a bad element in the group as well that might have been weeded out.
  32. Ballin Munson from toronto, Canada writes: Stephanie B. from Canada writes:...... "The U.S has an immigration scheme that promotes diversity,"

    The Us is not actively seeking immigrants, as is Canada, Australia, etc.

    What the US has, is a system which recognizes various economic (entertainers, professors, scientist, etc.) family (reunions, marriages, etc.)., and service (military, offspring of overseas personnel, etc.) situations, will create a need to allow these people to enter, and live in the US.

    The US is not trying to settle the west, etc., any more. So as such, there is no category for "lawn care workers", or "restaurant help".

    It also not dependent upon age (like Canada) and other factors which focus on the individual entering. It is more focused on who is sponsoring, and why. So as such, diversity does not enter into it.

    Other than that, your posts are in line...
  33. George Khan from Suburbia, Canada writes: Stephanie B. (as bigot?), you and the rest of GW/Harpy voters are so pitifully naive... Let see, why do you think USA didn't show a lot of interest (zero in fact) in putting in place some kind of legal, temporary working permits for illegal Mexicans and other Latinos (which would have drastically reduced the illegal "invasion") in targeted occupations/sectors, such agriculture, construction, industry, etc. where there have been badly needed for quite a while? Well, for starters, they are cheaper... a lot cheaper than legal workers, not only because the salary, but also because they are not entitled to receive health, pension or community-based services, thus resulting in a far cheaper working mass. So the companies, the government and the rest of the "legal" citizens just looked the other way, because it was a win/win situation for all of them: a lot of cheap (a.k.a. competitive), and mostly hard, workers, doing the jobs many "legals" didn't want to do anymore, and having a relatively reduced impact (in a per-capita basis) in the country's infrastructure.
    What changed now? Now there are not so many jobs available, so now we can declare open season on illegals, right? Give me a break
  34. Cruthin Clan from Brampton, Canada writes: George Khan - I read this exact story on the USA Today website last year when it was only 15 states that had enacted the illegal acts. Things were still looking good in the summer of 2007 so your point is null and void mate.
    You want rid of them start with fining the companies that use them. And not little fines of $5000 but huge amounts ranging from the $100,000 and up per worker caught. Pretty soon the Walmarts of the world won't be hiring illegals to do their night clean up anymore.
  35. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: George Khan:. You have no right calling me a bigot. No right at all. It is that kind of senseless kneejerk reaction that is meant to stifle debate that has caused to me to become so disenchanted with the left end of the political spectrum in this country. Unfounded accuasations of bigotry and racism are like crying wolf. I take no issue at all with a legal immigration system that supports diversity. The U.S is after all, the most diverse country in the world. However, it is ridiculous to think that it is good policy to allow a continued, uncontrolled influx of people from the poor countries of South America, plain and simple. Since, you have proven unable to counter the economic arguments made, you are resorting to accusations of bigotry. I don't respect it. Here in Canada, we don't allow people who are in the country illegally to file for permanent residence, but require them to leave the country first. Exceptions can be made in some circumstances. So are our policies now racist? I can assure you that there are plenty of people from Mexico and South America in the U.S. The problems many Americans have in not so much that they are Hispanic, but that many are there illegally, and are a net drain on the system in what is a welfare state. I have heard from many people concerned that while they are hard workers (please note I never suggested otherwise), the don't earn enough to be paying taxes that equal the amount of services they consume by the state. These are economic facts that have nothing to do with race, so why do people keep brining it up?
  36. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: Bill Munson,

    The U.S has a scheme that raffles off green cards in an effort to respect diversity. They allot x numbers of green cards to people from countries all over the world on the basis of nothing but their country of origin. Since the other aspects of their immigration policy are not based on race, but sound policies, such as attracting high skilled labour and reunification of families, it cannot be said to be racist.

    Let' s face it, the U.S is the most diverse country in the world.
  37. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: George khan,

    First of all, it embarrassing me for you that you imply that Stephen Harper and George Bush are carbon copies of one another. It is an old and tiresome argument.

    Furthermore, George Bush is pro amnesty for illegal immigrants. Or don't you actually read about the subjects insist on posting comments on.
  38. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: George Khan writes" also because they are not entitled to receive health, pension or community-based services, thus resulting in a far cheaper working mass."

    You obviously don't read or follow American news very closely. Until recently, illegal immigrants have been eligible for all sorts of services on the taxpayers' dollars. Examples include: in state tuition, a free elementary and primary school education, free health care (you do get treatment even if you don't pay your bills), welfare in some cases, and benefits of other programs such as taxpayer funded pre-natal care for pregnant women. So while the business might not be paying for these costs, the taxpayer is. Sounds like a form of subsidy to businesses if you ask me.

    You claim that these illegal immigrants are only doing jobs Americans won't do? See if the government was actually implementing a carefully planned immigration policy, I might believe you. The fact is that since the influx of cheap labour is completely out of anyone's control at the moment, there is a never ending labour supply. When supply expands, wages decrease. So what you really mean is that they are doing jobs that Americans won't do at those prices. Big difference.
  39. Tony Mareschealle from Oakville, Canada writes: I am sorry, but I have no sympathy for any form of illegal immigrant / immigration. My parents and our family immigrated in 1974 - it took my father 2 attempts - in those days you had to have a guaranteed job (for at least a year) before you could get in.

    Today this country lets in any and everyone. Not to mention the near dying parent / grandparents etc., which continue to bleed the health care system. We comnplain that there is an aging population in the country - of course there is - for every 2 parents we bring in 4 aging (and high probability "sick" ) parents. it does not take a genius to do the math. But you see doing that type of study would not be "polittically" correct"

    As far as I am concerned we should be applying the same degree of dilligence in respect of illegals in this country and and be applying the same restrictions on services.

    Sorry if I upset the bleeding heart "Canada is the Worlds Mother" types.
  40. too old from Canada writes: Kahn You are sooo far out of touch that it is difficult to even know where to start to explain things to you.

    I spend 6 months a year down there every year and watch first hand what is happening and experience mush of it.

    Arizona has a policy of health care called Access which ensures health care for anybody walking through the door of an ER.

    I have sat in ERs with ailing friends and watched the dozens of Mexicans with their kids receiving service from the Drs and staff. They actually are cared on a first come and first served basis so even though my friends have medical insurance they pay for they still sit at the back of the buss waiting their turn.

    The schools are full of kids from the illegal group as well as the welfare offices etc.

    I have no problem with the Mexicans when considering what we get in Canada.

    Please only comment on stuff you know about, of course then we would never hear from you.
  41. Blasphemous Apostate from Cahones, Mexico writes: J M from Canada writes: "If illegal Latino migrants were doing something different than other migrant groups that came to the USA or Canada throughout the history of these countries, you might have a case. However, legal or illegal, people have been coming to these countries and committing themselves to labour in order to come out ahead. Tell me how this entire group should be judged separately."

    ------------------

    Einstein, read my post again....I answered your question. If you are too thick to understand then go back to watching Gilligan's Island.....
  42. Festina Lente from United States writes: Orest Zarowsky from Toronto writes that Georgia is the US biggest producer of onions. What a misleading statement. Georgia is not even listed as being in the first five. Perhaps you are just shooting from the hip as I notice you are prone to do.
  43. Slippery Slope from Canada writes: As long as they don't move here.
  44. too old from Canada writes: Slippery slope Compared to what we have they look real good.

    Hard working, willing and able to do anything to get ahead, great consumers (helping the mfg. industry) mix with us real well when not being chased. Love sports and mostly good family people. Mostly law abiding and smart as well.

    I spend 6 months each years in the Southwest of the States and have a great opportunity to watch them and I would take most of them in a flash compared to what we are getting.

    The first generation will work at anything to make a living but the next one has moved up the economic scale and have the houses, businesses, cars etc. etc.

    If they would just come legally I for one would welcome them to fill ouir immigration quota and leave this bunch we have back home that they love so much.
  45. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Festina Lente: Malcolm, you evade the core issue. As usual. How gracious of you. But, oh so typical of the RRW. At the time the incident I relate happened, Georgia was, according to the articles, the biggest producer of onions. But, even if that wasn't an accurate production assessment, that's not the main point.

    The main issue would be that the Senator in question, Clarence Saxby Chambliss, is a hypocrite. As are you. At least, so far, you haven't shown yourself to be a rascist like he is. But who knows what you are hiding.

    The festering sore in the illegal immigrant / alien issue in the US is why the authorities are so reluctant to actually enforce existing legislation. And, more to the point, why any attempts to do so are quashed so fast and thoroughly.

    Weird how it is the business lobby that is so loudly vocal about stifling the enforcement of the law. Perhaps you could address that detail. Say, it wouldn't have anything to do with cheap labour and breaking unions, now would it?

    Not just in Georgia, but in Arizona (see too old's post of 05/08/08 at 9:57 AM EDT for details). And then there are all the "VIPs" in California that have been busted for illegal Philippine nannies and "housekeepers".

    Florida, where you have said you live, has its own illegals - many from Cuba. But you call them refugees. Funny how that works out. Especially when it comes to election time.

    Like "too old" your post just proves my main point. And, just like "too old", you slander me. But neither of you will actually address the specifics of the core point I raise. Why is that?

    Say Malcolm, I was wondering something. Are you one of the "Swift Boaters"? You certainly sound like one of them.
  46. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Stephanie B.: I never said that the only place illegals work is in agriculture. Your problem is ideologically-driven cognitive and reading comprehension failure.

    Work on that, why don't you?

    Some of your points and observations are reasonable, and I agree with them.

    Tragically for you, overall, it is clear that you are a card carrying member of the Rabid Right Wing. And a rascist and Fascist as well. That tends to drown out the reasonable things you say on occasion.

    One of the beautiful things about the RRW is how they react to being called on their lies and hypocrisy. And you qualify - in spades.
  47. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Tony Mareschealle: Being the child of legal immigrants to Canada, I don't have any specific argument with your point. But what you and many other posters here "miss" - more like deliberately and consciously ignore - is why illegal immigrants are able to "prosper" and keep on coming.

    There is only one reason. Money.

    The front-line of this are the businesses and their owners that profit directly from the exploitation of the cheap labour of the illegals. Funny how these businessmen keep on hiring all these people. For a very low wage. And they claim to be "unaware" of the immigration status of these workers. Yeah right. Pull the other one, its got bells on it.

    But they couldn't do that if us "upstanding" citizens didn't support them by demanding the cheapest possible price for the services we buy from them. That whole underground, under the table, cash only, economy thing.

    Whining about illegal immigrants while simultaneously supporting and encouraging the situation because we are too effing cheap to pay the full freight of the work done by illegals is the height of dishonesty and hypocricy.

    Complaining about the taxes not paid by illegals, while doing everything possible to evade those same taxes and fees yourself is also hypocritical. Why is it perfectly fine for you to dodge the taxman, but not OK for the illegals you support to do the same thing? Oh yeah, that's it - you're a citizen and they aren't. Typical RRW "logic".
  48. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: Orest,

    I think the American people who are calling for immigration enforcement understand that prices will go up once the never ending supply of cheap labour is stopped. No one is ignoring that that will be a likely consequence.

    Simple economics....Businesses will pay as little as possible in wages to maximize their profits. Their job is to maximize profits.

    Where do get that there are so many Americans trying to evadee taxes. The Americans I know are paying their taxes and they are not benefitting from illegal immigration because they are not hiring illegal immigrants. The cheaper price of goods is more than offset by the higher taxes they must pay in order to subsidize business. This is not a difficult concept.
  49. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ too old: Re your post of of 05/08/08 at 9:57 AM EDT. Well now. All you have done is re-enforce my point. Your example from Arizona is even more interesting and entertaining than mine from Georgia.

    And then we can look at California. Not just Hispanics, but Philippinos being exploited. And then there are all those Chinese smuggled in to "work" for the clothing manufacturers.

    Say there too old - or would "old tool", broken and worn out, be more correct? - who here really is "not too bright"? Especially since most of the rest of your posts do nothing more than support the main point I made in my original post?

    I just love the internal inconsistencies and contradictions in what passes for logic and thinking among the RRW. You make it so easy. Speaking of "not too bright".

    That Senator from Georgia, Clarence Saxby Chambliss, is well known for "intemperate" remarks that are most accurately described as rascist and xenophobic. And his voting record is very well in line with the positions of assorted organizations that can also be accurately described the same way.

    The pointy part of your head is clearly missing its tinfoil hat. You had best replace it. ASAP.
  50. Stephanie B. from Canada writes: Orest 1. Up until a couple of years ago, I was actually a card carrying Liberal. By contrast, I have never been a card carrying Conservative. My resume is filled with the volunteer work I did for Liberal campaigns. Your assumptions are so far off the mark, they are laughable. 2. You should be careful about making unfounded allegations of racism. I take no issue with an immigration policy that promotes diversity. I most definitely have never and would never support an immigration policy that discriminates against people based on race, ethnicity or religion. Though I do believe that a sound immigration policy must take into account economics. 3. I score very high on standardized tests dealing with reading comprehension and logic. My point in a previous post was that illegal immigrants are not confined to working in the agricultural sector and that they are in fact doing jobs that Americans will do. Unfortunately, most Americans won't do them at those wages. 4. I think it is very immature of you to make knee-jerk allegations of racism and xenophobia rather than making an effort to understand the substance of people's arguments. Just because one's views may run counter to your own, does not mean people are driven by ideology or have not thought out their positions. Most people who are not driven by ideology tend to fall on different parts on the political spectrum depending on the issue. Cheers
  51. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: @ Stephanie B.: Ever hear of the underground economy? You know: cash, under the table. Where things like GST and PST aren't charged. And the total price is significantly lower. As are the wages paid to the workers.

    As the old aphorism goes: "There's more than one way to skin a cat.". And there's more than one way to evade taxes.

    Americans are no different from Canadians. Everyone is looking for ways to save a buck here and there. Legitimately or not. Funny how so many "upstanding" citizens are eager to use illegitimate means to save a few bucks then turn around and whine about the illegals they support.

    Similar to the whining about the gangs and the violence they produce while people persist in buying the illegal drugs these gangs sell. Is that weird or what?

    The underground economy in house renovations alone has been estimated to be worth about 4 or 5 billion dollars. How, and by whom, exactly, do you think all that work is being done. By union workers? I don't think so!

    The proof of the correctness and truth of what I say is inherent in the scope of the illegal immigrant / alien "problem". If these people weren't making - by their standards - a good and profitable living, the problem wouldn't exist. They would have no incentive to participate.

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