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Ocean 'dead zones' proliferating

DAVID HUTTON

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 2:38 PM EST 14/08/08

Maritime areas starved for oxygen now one of world's most pressing environmental issues, scientist says ...Read the full article

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  1. Anant Mathur from Toronto, Canada writes: Cue comments about India and China polluting the environment and not taking responsibility for it...bawahahah
  2. roy f from van, Canada writes: Oh, these crazy lefty scientists. Cant they ever find something positive to say about our industial progress.
  3. Rick Drysdale from Canada writes: ' rank as one of the world's most pressing environmental problems.'

    Give me a break will you please.
    How many of these do we need?
    It seems that ever month or so they come up with another caus de month
  4. Antonio San from Canada writes: And in Canada, Victoria BC still is rejecting all its raw sewer in the Ocean... Bravo Canada!
  5. Bobby the K from Kingston, Canada writes: If only the media gave this kind of thing the resources they put into reporting about the stuff coming out of britney, paris et. al.
  6. Neon Cab from Canada writes: Yes, Rick. My question is whether this is pressing enough for us to stop funding pet projects around global warming or whatever they now call it?
  7. Pragmatic Canadian from Canadia, Canada writes: 'Rick Drysdale from Canada writes: ... How many of these do we need?
    It seems that ever month or so they come up with another caus de month'

    We don't NEED any of them Rick, but as long as people like you ignore the problems and their causes, a new 'cause do month', as you put it, will inevitably keep adding to the long list of worsening environmental crises we are already faced with.

    At least these scientists have scientific evidence to back their claims ... What do you have to support your complacency and nay-sayer attitude?
  8. Matthew Baldwin from Canada writes: [i]'The root of the problem is the spread of nitrogen caused by runoff of fertilizers, sewage outflows, and nitrogen deposits from burning fossil fuels, Dr. Diaz said. Nutrient pollution from agricultural runoff fuels blooms of algae – a process known as eutrophication – that rot and consume oxygen levels as they decay. '[/i] - I'm sorry....Nitrogen Deposits from the burning of fossil fuels? Give me a break. I'm all for good environmental causes when backed up by real science, but when these crusaders intentionally lie and misrepresent information I lose all respect for them.
  9. Billiam Smith from Montreal, Canada writes: Growing problem, or long-existing situation in the deep oceans that we only now have the techmology to identify? Always the observation bias with these environmentalists...
  10. - Coyote from Canada writes: All tuna samples from American sushi bars contaminated with mercury.
    All blood samples of North Americans tainted with industrial pollutants.
    All water samples in USA and most in Canada contaminated with industrial pollutants.

    “Always the observation bias with these environmentalists... “ Ha ha ha

    Taming the Dragon
    Earth Day, April 22, 2008
    http://www.bigthink.com/science-technology/the-environment/10735
  11. BUB ImumI from Canada writes: ..//
    Another Extinction Level Catastrophe...

    I don't believe a word from the grant money justifying academics.

    Show me that dissolved O2 data for the last 200 years please for the entire earths surface.....

    Total Bull...

    The sky is falling the sky is falling....

    ..//
  12. days ofcoleco from Canada writes: So long as Stevie Harpie isn't worried it's OK.
  13. Robert Loblaw from Canada, Canada writes: News release:

    Stephane Dion has announced that he plans to include a nitrogen tax in his proposed Green Shaft programme.

    Some of the money collected will be used to train the fish not to swim into the oxygen depleted waters, with the balance being used to subsidize families with not less than two pre-school aged fish in the family aquarium.

    Mr. Dion recently purchased a goldfish, which he named 'Nitro', to demonstrate his unflinching commitment to the 'de-nitrification' of our bordering oceans.
  14. Douglas Campbell from writes: 'Billiam Smith from Montreal, Canada writes: Growing problem, or long-existing situation in the deep oceans that we only now have the techmology to identify? Always the observation bias with these environmentalists...'

    Definitely a rapidly, recently growing problem.
    This is not a centuries-long process, there are observable, measurable increases in dead zones from one year to the next.
    The mechanism is reasonably straightforward:
    a) In many areas of the ocean, productivity used to be limited by levels of available nitrogen

    b) Increasing use of nitrogen fertilizer on land can increase the nitrate runoff into rivers (well characterized)

    c) The river nitrate reaches the coast and fertilizes a burst of phytoplankton productivity from photosynthesis.
    CO2 H20 -> CH2O O2.
    d) The oxygen produced can diffuse out to the atmosphere and escape, but much of the carbohydrate produced sinks towards the bottom as dead cells.
    e) This creates an increased supply of carbohydrate for microbial respiration near the bottom:
    CH20 O2 -> CO2 H20

    f) The respiration draws down the available oxygen in the water.
    g) Deadzone. Dead shrimp. Dead or displaced fish.

    h) Hurricane, winds, mixing or seasonal overturn eventually re-mixes the water in most areas.
    (Some areas remain permanently hypoxic - like the Black Sea).

    Summary: Nitrate run off leads leads to coastal dead zones, in areas where unless ocean is weak or intermittent.

    Management solution: Manage nitrogen fertilizer application to limit run off. But when fertilizer is relatively cheap, farmers have an incentive to over-fertilize to be sure to maximize yields, rather than risk lower yields from underfertilization.

    Applied Microbiology 3111, Mount Allison University, lecture summary 25.
  15. god bless canada from Canada writes: BEST POST OF THE DAY

    Robert Loblaw from Canada, Canada writes: News release:

    Stephane Dion has announced that he plans to include a nitrogen tax in his proposed Green Shaft programme.

    Some of the money collected will be used to train the fish not to swim into the oxygen depleted waters, with the balance being used to subsidize families with not less than two pre-school aged fish in the family aquarium.

    Mr. Dion recently purchased a goldfish, which he named 'Nitro', to demonstrate his unflinching commitment to the 'de-nitrification' of our bordering oceans.
  16. Dave Roberts from Toronto, Canada writes: Nitrogen fertilizer also kills reefs but it's easier to blame that solely on global warming.
  17. Sarah Wheatley from Canada writes: The dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico is quite well known, but the diagram included in this article showed some rather poor conditions in areas of Canada as well. I didn't know things were this bad on the east coast.

    As for the people who contradict these findings, I have a sneaking suspicion that these people are more knowledgable of business than of science. Try to find someone with a university degree in biology (and isn't paid by an oil company, lobby group etc) who will deny well researched scientific studies just because they conflict with the business practice of sacrificing the earth for monetary gain.
  18. JP Warwick from Canada writes: I guess, now that it's been a cold year and even NASA admits that 'global warming' in on hold for a decade or two, the trendy activists who claim to be scientists have moved on to the next new thing. Too bad they didn't also change the boogeyman.

    Clearly, they skipped out on the classics when they were young. Otherwise they'd have learned about the 'boy who cried wolf'...

    Too bad they haven't figure out that non-industrialized nations also create sewage and also do stuff like farm for their food.
  19. Green Dragon from Ottawa, Canada writes: Scary. But the good news is that rapid progress can be made. We can do this if we cooperate internationally. Just like we stopped the hole in the ozone layer from growing and just like we fixed the acid rain problems.
  20. Okanagan Man from Beautiful Vernon, Canada writes: Thank you for your informative post Douglas. I can't believe how quickly people can dismiss issues of such fundamental importance.
  21. Gary Dale from Toronto, Canada writes: So we've got the usual collection of (insert favourite derogatory phase here) trying to pretend the problem isn't real. The simple fact of the matter is that 100 years ago, we only had 1/4 the number of people and a much lower level of industrialization. We've never had to deal with the byproducts of our civilization like this before.

    We're stretching all kinds of systems to their limits just through of our sheer numbers. We're pushing habitation into areas where there never was many people and we're destroying habitat at an alarming rate. Meanwhile, the so-called green revolution in agriculture is drenching soils in chemicals, much of which ends up in the oceans.

    What really astounds me however is that the right wing likes to talk about personal responsibility but when the rubber hits the road, they refuse to own up to what they, individually, and we, collectively, are doing to the planet.

    Of course, they also accuse scientists who study these things as being 'lefties'. However, the truth is that the scientists cover the full political spectrum that the rest of us do. The reason they always seem to come up with these distressing environmental stories is that they have a commitment to the truth, regardless of where it takes them.
  22. jenny g from Canada writes: Thank you, Douglas Campbell. For those of us who have studied these sorts of things, this isn't surprising but it is of concern. As is the opinion of those jaded commenters on the impetus behind research. Why the lack of trust in scientists? And if there's no trust of highly trained scientists who have devoted years and years of their lives to understanding these problems, who *do* you trust for information on how the world is working and how humans are impacting the environment? They go out and study these things in real life. It's not sitting on the beach with margaritas, it's sifting through microscopic organisms, fecal matter and chemicals. It's a lot of menial labour, repetitive tests on fickle machinery, smelly disgusting samples or chemicals that could be considered 'liquid death' if one small accident occurs when you're handling them (e.g. methylmercury testing). And just because we don't have the dissolved O2 levels for the entire Earth's surface for the past 200 years doesn't mean it's 'bull'. That's not how science works. A hypothesis is either supported or refuted. It can be refuted at any time, but that does not make a supported hypothesis automatically false. You don't need to count all the crows in the world to conclude that crows are black. And if you find one white crow, it doesn't mean that crows aren't black. It means that one isn't, and that leads to a more interesting question of - why? The conclusion of this study is that there are more 'dead zones' in the world's oceans. These are associated with areas that receive run-off with high levels of nitrogen. In this world, many creatures require oxygen to survive, therefore expanding the areas without oxygen necessarily reduces the number of species surviving there. Running into a room without oxygen will also result in humans going 'belly up' if they don't realize it. The corollary inferred: We are causing a bad thing to happen, we should to fix it.
  23. Northern Boy from Sudbury, Canada writes: There are still a wack of people who refuse to acknowledge global warming, despite the overwhelming evidence. If people don't acknowledge what they can see, they certainly won't acknowledge what they can't see, specifically in the Oceans. Unfortunately the scientists findings won't be heard by the majority of the world, and like all else, nothing will be done until it is entirely too late.
  24. SL S from Saskatchewan, Canada writes: Very interesting. This really dispells any holding to the global warming theories. In fact, it's the exact opposite to global warming conditions. Very interesting.
  25. Terry F from Edmonton, Canada writes: Finally a story on the environment that doesn't go screaming about global warming. Once Dion bans carbon and nitrogen there'll only be a few dozen elements on the periodic table left to tax. Go get 'er, backpack boy.
  26. gilles monenemie from Montreal, Canada writes: We can thank george bush and stephen harper for supporting ethanol subsidies so corn can grow everywhere. Corn is very efficient at help fertilizer companies make record profitst. Meanwhile the soil and phopsphorus fertilizer washes out and feeds the dead zones of the world. Its too bad George bush and steven harper have dead zones in their brains that allow them to coddle the cornethanol and fertilizer industries and kill the worlds oceans.

    Real conservatives don't vote for conservatives that kill the planet, vote green.
  27. JP Warwick from Canada writes:
    Gary Dale

    No, what we have is the usual activist trying to pretend he's engaging in science.

    Real science has known about fertilizers causing algae blooms for a long time. This isn't new. It's not science to jump on trendy bandwaggons to promote the latest cause like some hollywood fluff.

    Want to deal with some problems in the ocean? 1) over-fishing. 2) plastic leaching chemicals into the water - some of which mimic hormones and are decimating amphibians. 3) floating garbage piles larger than cities. 4) Japan's still whaling and killing dolphins

    Industrial chemicals, ironically, are more likely to be dumped in non-industrial countries with poor environmental laws and enforcement.

    I have no patience for 'scientists' who act like luddite socialist. It's absolutely true that a rich 1st-world person over-consumes. It's also true that they're outnumbered by all the 3rd-world hordes who have over-bred. China is a poor nation only if you use a per capita number but they shouldn't be given a pass because they have over-bred. They pollute more in a year than Canada has in its history. To ignore that while griping at us isn't science.
  28. Terry F from Edmonton, Canada writes: Yes gilles, Harper and Bush have been scouring the planet looking for ways to dump nitrogen in the sea in order to prop up the fertilizer industry. That's it. Really. It is. Stay away from pointy objects.
  29. Prairie Boy from Canada writes: Douglas Campbell has it right. Fertilizer is not cheap anymore and farming practices have changed quite a bit and keep evolving so it should be improving as we speak.
  30. JP Warwick from Canada writes: jenny g

    'Why the lack of trust in scientists?'

    Jenny, let me introduce you to Northern Boy from Sudbury who can point you in the right direction:

    'There are still a wack of people who refuse to acknowledge global warming, despite the overwhelming evidence.'

    The UN and NASA have been caught in so many lies they've destroyed the credibility of the lot. When grant money is dependant on your political views, when tenure, grants and prises are awarded only to those who prove their PC bona fides, why would we give the profession any credibility?

    Note also, that even NASA is backtracking off the global warming bandwagon (they claim it's 'on hold.' For a decade or two.)

    Science needs a purge and a wash to clean itself up. My father is a tenured prof at one of Canada's better university (Biology) and he's disgusted at the crap he hears. Of course, he's near retirement so doesn't have to fear reprisals from anti-intellectual, activist tyrants who pretend their activism has anything to do with science.
  31. Iain Scott from Calgary, Canada writes: Looked at the map and immediately recognized that Victoria is still supporting Mr. Floatie.
  32. jeff mactavish from Canada writes: I guess now that global warming has been proven to be nothing more than a wealth transfer scam, the parasites like Gore, Suzuki and their faithful sheep need another global catastophe to spread their doom. First it was an ice age, then bird flu, then global warming, now a dying ocean. You people really are pathetic!
  33. Billiam Smith from Montreal, Canada writes: Coyote - Obviously you have access to some secret reports that only you and your friends are privy to. If you have information that all tuna in North America contains poinsonous levels of mercury, you should share it! Douglas Campbell - I understand the gist of the reported story, but here's another reasonable way of interpretting it: 'Due to technology developments in the '60s we have begun to able to detected hypoxic zones in the ocean. Thanks to improved technology and research funding our knowledge of these areas - and their extent - has grown further over the past 45 years.' I also understand the nitrogen link and I do not deny its roll in dead zones, but it's a bit of stretch to say that an area that is oxygen deprived *because of too much marine life activity around phytoplankton-rich areas* will result in dead marine life. Surely if marine life can be drawn to an area by the phytoplankton, it will also be repelled by the lack of oxygen?
  34. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: There are plenty of real problems out there; problems that just might be solved if we put any effort into them. But people aren't interested. They only want to talk about carbon credits and carbon offsets and carbon trading. The Carbonistas have long since hijacked the agenda, and they won't be letting go any time soon. Real problems proliferate while the environutters play with carbon markets and direct most environmental funding towards GHG reductions.
  35. Grampa Canuck from Stirling, ON, Canada writes: Scientists are all part of a leftist plot to socialize the world and confiscate our wealth. You know this because the scientific process and scientific research comes up with conlusions that differ from right-wing pre-dispositions. These evil scientists don't reason from the general to the specific like right-wingers do. Rather, they collect data, study it, draw conclusions, have it peer reviewed, subject it to contrasting points of view and move on from there. This is evil! Science attracts left-wing socialists because it's analytical. I believe the right-wing blogosphere and Rush Limgaught over all these lefty scientists any day.

    Scientists are evil!!!!!!!
  36. dee jay from Canada writes:
    --- Grampa Canuck from Stirling, ON, Canada writes: Scientists are all part of a leftist plot to socialize the world and confiscate our wealth. You know this because the scientific process and scientific research comes up with conlusions that differ from right-wing pre-dispositions. These evil scientists don't reason from the general to the specific like right-wingers do. Rather, they collect data, study it, draw conclusions, have it peer reviewed, subject it to contrasting points of view and move on from there. This is evil! Science attracts left-wing socialists because it's analytical. I believe the right-wing blogosphere and Rush Limgaught over all these lefty scientists any day.

    Scientists are evil!!!!!!! ---

    And there are fairies on my front lawn that tease me and try to cut me when I leave the house.
  37. Harold Alan from Victoria from Canada writes: The problem may be complex but it is real. Here on the Pacific shores, there has been a huge mostly not understood decline in salmon. Another year or two and they could go the way of the Atlantic cod, which we know was overfished. Overfishing off the coast of Africa has cascading effects on the ocean and land. Just because it is not easy to give a quick answer to does not mean it is not real or possibly catastrophic. Where will everyone go to find food if there is none in the oceans?

    And yes Victoria has its well known sewage issue, but we are cleaning ours up. What about the rest? What price are you prepared to pay, and make no mistake, it will cost big time to fix this.
  38. Dwight Jones from Vancouver, Canada writes: PBS/Nova showed ewvidence last night that hypoxia is caused also by warming the sea, warm water doesn't hold CO2 well, then H2S takes over, rotten eggs hydrogen sulphide the result.

    Only nuclear power can step in to replace our power requirements derived from fossil fuels now, and rescue the atmosphere.
  39. Grampa Canuck from Stirling, ON, Canada writes: dee jay: those fairies on your front lawn are also probably evil left-wing socialists out to conficscate everyone's wealth.
  40. SL S from Saskatchewan, Canada writes: There are so many conspiracy theories out there that I just don't know what to think about society these days LOL. WOW, people really have active imaginations. Everyones out to get them. These boards are hilarious. While I'm at home recovering from spinal surgery, or perhaps it was a tracking implant or an alien experiment, I have found these boards to be highly entertaining and occasionally education, but that's really rare. Thank you one and all and keep the paranoid delusions coming. I love it.
  41. - Coyote from Canada writes: It does not matter the issue: DENIERS always come out in attack formations reminiscent of drone insects.

    This arrogance of ignorance is absolutely stunning. No matter the issue or news story, always ignorance insists that its position trumps that of the researched, the educated and the reasoned.

    From this experiance, we can comprehend the utter ignorance that burned ancient libraries; the ignorance that sought out and murdered the educated class in Cambodia; the stupidity of St. Augustine to argue that defending ancient Rome was unimportant (that the invisible Kingdom of God trumped); the hubris that causes ordinary people to follow despotic leadership even to the point of self-annihilation (Japan, Germany); and the foolishness of those that will defend blatant self-interest and market fundamentalism even in the face of approaching destruction.

    Those who have faith in their fellow man are fools; the common man is no better than a dumb insect defending it's hive. Stupidity rules us and the history of civilization always proves that fate destroys each of our attempts with our own hubris.

    What makes the ignorant so certain that this attempt at civilization is so different that we can escape our Progress Traps? (Ronald Wright: “A Short History of Progress”) Nothing more than the arrogance of our ignoramuses.

    A bitter Coyote story of faithlessness and despair.
  42. Alan Burke from ClimateChange.dynalias.com, Canada writes: Once again, the 'Tragedy of the Commons' and misguided economics.

    Brother, can you spare me a planet?

    http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=brother-can-you-spare-me-a-planet
  43. Jeff Pritchard from Canada writes: Success in the modern world is strongly correlated with the ability to ignore what is most real and manifest.
  44. Harold Alan from Victoria from Canada writes: I am no fan of Dion's carbon shift mostly because I don't think it is primarily about GHG's. Call my cynical..... However, I doubt that most of us realize how thin the ice is under us, metaphorically and literally.

    A friend of mine who tracks ocean warming through U. Victoria and the federal oceans program has been telling me for the last few years, the Pacific is warming, at an alarming rate. The same undoubtedly is true for the Atlantic et al. though I do not know the rates for each.

    The tragedy of this is that we will continue with bread and circuses pretending we do not know the barbarians are at the gate until its our forest that burns, our crops that do not grow or our home that is washed away. Then all the finger pointing will begin to see who was responsible for this catastrophe.

    I wish I could predict how it turns out. I am not optimistic in the short run for my children or grandchildren. I think they will inherit a much worse situation than maybe most of us can imagine.
  45. Mike McFae from Canada writes: Agree with the 2:38 post that correctly points out that there are too many terror topics . Some are rubbish , some may be true but all these apocalyptic predictions turn many people off from the hysteria. In this case , dead zone sounds like a catchy phrase that will be a real cash cow for the grantsuckers if they only only link it to GW . See how cynical all this hysteria has made me ...aaahhhh.
  46. Runnin Rebel from Canada writes:
    Stevie says its a socialist plot planned by the evil Scandanavian countries.
  47. - TheDigression.com - from Victoria, Canada writes: You guys are worrying about the wrong things. This is an easy fix.

    GMO crops and kill genes aren't.

    Global warming, global cooling. The only difference is what to wear.

    The Elites are already devoting increased resources to terra-form Mars. Those in power are not worried about this planet, they really will move on to the next one.
  48. Jeff Kelly from Kitchener, Canada writes: JP Warwick - Nice try... But there are scientists out there ready and willing to wager cold hard cash that the warming will continue.

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/05/global-cooling-wanna-bet

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/05/the-global-cooling-bet-part-2/#more-565

    Tell your dad to retire if he can't keep up with modern science.
  49. JP Warwick from Canada writes: Jeff Kelly

    Yes, it must be science and not activism if some 'scientists' declare the true faith and demand resignations (witchburnings?) of those who dare commit heresies.
  50. Overtaxed and underlaid from Canada writes: THIS is a REAL environmental problem - too bad all the huggers are too busy worrying about Climate Change to focus on actual ecological problems happening now.
  51. - Coyote from Canada writes: “The Age of American Unreason:” by Susan Jacoby

    Anti-intellectualism is 'older than our national identities' and deeply rooted in history. Jacoby thinks the distrust of those who devote themselves to 'ideas, reason, logic, evidence, and precise language' has been worsened by the conditions of contemporary life.

    There is, she writes, 'a new species of semi-conscious ANTI-RATIONALISM, feeding on and fed by an ignorant popular culture of video images and unremitting noise that leaves no room for contemplation or logic.' People never read books, they can't concentrate on anything significant for more than a minute or two, and as a result they don't really think anymore.

    Lulled by the 'pacifier' of 'infotainment,' their CIVIC and POLITICAL decisions emerge from a confused welter of laziness, reckless emotion and prejudice.

    The chief manifestations of this newly virulent irrationality are the rise of fundamentalist religion and the flourishing of junk science and other forms of what Jacoby calls 'JUNK THOUGHT.'

    The mentally enfeebled North American public can now be easily manipulated by flimsy symbolism, whether it's George W. Bush's bumbling, accented speaking style (labeling him as a 'regular guy' despite his highly privileged background) or the successful campaign by right-wing ideologues to smear liberals as snooty 'elites.'

    Unable to grasp even the basic principles of statistics or the scientific method, North Americans gullibly buy into a cornucopia of bogus notions, from intelligent design to the anti-vaccination movement.

    http://www.salon.com/books/review/2008/02/15/susan_jacoby/
  52. Alan Burke from ClimateChange.dynalias.com, Canada writes: Does anyone here actually read and understand the science before commenting?
  53. Crusty Curmudgeon from Ottawa, Canada writes:

    Too much data -- not enough intelligence (especially on these discussion groups).
  54. james cyr from Balmertown Ontario, Canada writes: There should be practical solutions to this problem. Sewage should be treated, not discharged into rivers and ultimately the ocean. Is there no way that nitrogen can be eliminated from fertilizers? Obviously this is rather simplistic, but I believe that things can be done if we want them to be.
  55. Cuban Cigar from Canada writes: Overtaxed and underlaid from Canada writes: THIS is a REAL environmental problem - too bad all the huggers are too busy worrying about Climate Change to focus on actual ecological problems happening now.
    -----------
    Phew, that's a relief.

    I thought climate change was ongoing and had to be stopped if the world was to survive for our grandkids. Boy was I wrong. I will start ripping out trees now and buy an SUV!

    Thanks selfish lonley guy!
  56. Pragmatic Pundit from Calgary, Canada writes: Alan - Given the amount of fallacious, illogical thought posted in these boards, is your question rhetorical? ;)
  57. J G from Canada writes: Several places in Canada including Victoria dump raw sewage into the oceans. Let's start cleanup somewhere by starting at home. Humans out of greed will destroy this planet. Just because another country does it does not mean Canada has to do it also.
  58. Jeff Kelly from Kitchener, Canada writes: JP Warwick -- No... Scientists rigorously study study study, and gather data, and present the data in meaningful and defensible ways. You 1) misconstrue the report you cited (Even its authors are in agreement with the overall warming trend, and note that global warming is not a straight line... Sorry if that isn't simple enough for you) and 2) do not seem to acknowledge the limitations of the study itself; again, noting that there are real scientists out there willing to back up their interpretations of the data, in this case with their own cold hard cash.

    Are you? Gee I wish there was a way to make some money off of these denier scabs... Maybe someone can set up a betting table in Vegas. I'd love to place some bets against the denier crowd. So far, nobody is taking Realclimate up on their offers, though. Go figure.
  59. He Shoots! He Scores! from Chicago, United States writes: 'Dave Roberts from Toronto, Canada writes: Nitrogen fertilizer also kills reefs but it's easier to blame that solely on global warming. '

    Where do nitrogen fertilizers come from? Fossil fuels. NG in this case. Isn't it interesting how fossil fuels are intimately involved in our enviroment. War over oil pipeline routes, massive release of CO2 into the atmosphere, war for control of oil resources and now (though the GoM dead zone has been recognized for years) ocean dead zones.

    GW warming is merely part and parcel of the oil age.

    There is no such thing as a free lunch, mon frere.
  60. Moi Canada from Canada writes: Can someone please answer: I thought the ocean system was dynamic, meaning, water from one are is not static and it flows from region to region. This is not like a lake where the water may become stagnant. Why would then you not have water flowing from another region replenishing the water in the xygen deprived region?
  61. Grampa Canuck from Stirling, ON, Canada writes: Alan Burke: why does anyone have to understand the science when you have the right-wing blogosphere and Rush Limbaugh to do your thinking for you? When your position, your thinking and your facts are packaged and fed to you, you can abdicate analysis, reasoning, researching for facts and critical thinking. And, you can identify with people who are 'tough-minded and no-nonsense' like Bill O'Reilly.
  62. gilles monenemie from Montreal, Canada writes: Terry F

    Runoff from farmland is a consequence of their exhaust the planets soil resources policy viz a viz ethanol. Imagine subsidzing corn ethanol when everyone knows its resource degrading especially on soil. Its the phosphorus runoff from agriculture thats causing the algae blooms problems here in Quebec and its the same elsewhere. its dead head policy from Bush and Harper creating corporate wlefare for their industry buddies. Even harpers chief spokeperson is an ethanol lobbyist. That stinks as bad as rotten algae on an ontario swimming beach.
  63. Jeff Kelly from Kitchener, Canada writes: MOI Canada - In the long term, you're correct, that would happen. But in the short term, certainly regions of the ocean can be deprived of oxygen. With large enough algae blooms (and we're talking regions as large as some states/provinces), the decay and oxygen consumption can't just be replaced in a day. Especially if the bloom is ongoing (ie year-round) as it often is in warmer areas. The rate of oxygen absorption exceeds replenishment through diffusion/currents/etc.
  64. Douglas Campbell from writes: Moi Canada from Canada writes: '...I thought the ocean system was dynamic, meaning, water from one are is not static and it flows from region to region. This is not like a lake where the water may become stagnant. Why would then you not have water flowing from another region replenishing the water in the xygen deprived region?'

    Different areas of the ocean have different rates of mixing, and mixing rates also vary seasonally.
    In the Gulf of Mexico, in the spring and summer, the upper water warms and stays on top.
    The bottom water stays on bottom.
    If excess carbohydrate (dead cells) sink towards the bottom, the local oxygen concentration gets drawn down, generating a dead zone.

    If a mixing event happens the hypoxic water can get re-mixed with higher oxygen water, dissipating the dead zone.
    But bottom-dwelling animals may not be able to escape the dead zone in time.

    In some areas, the water becomes worse than hypoxic, because once the O2 is gone, if carbohydrate remains, microbial activity generates H2S (hydrogen sulfide) as a waste product. This is deadly poison for most animals.
  65. Ho Ho from Canada writes:

    Can't wait until we get some DEAD AIR Zone. Just imagine.
  66. globefan Eh from Canada writes: For those that doubt the tuna fish levels..I offer this from the US National Insitute of Health. We do this to ourselves, the only species in the history of the planet that has the intellect to know the damage we do and yet who refuse to do anything about it because it is easier to deny.. We too will go the way of the dodo..The world has a fossil record..and we will become part of it, that is certain. Skipjack tuna as a bioindicator of contamination by perfluorinated compounds in the oceans. Hart K, Kannan K, Tao L, Takahashi S, Tanabe S. Wadsworth Center, New York State Department of Health, and Department of Environmental Health Sciences, School of Public Health, State University of New York, Albany, New York 12201-0509, USA. Perfluorinated chemicals (PFCs) have emerged as global environmental contaminants. Studies have reported the widespread occurrence of PFCs in biota from marine coastal waters and in remote polar regions. However, few studies have reported the distribution of PFCs in biota from offshore waters and open oceans. In this study, concentrations of nine PFCs were determined in the livers of 60 skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis) collected from offshore waters and the open ocean along the Pacific Rim, including the Sea of Japan, the East China Sea, the Indian Ocean, and the Western North Pacific Ocean, during 1997-1999. At least one of the nine PFCs was found in every tuna sample analyzed.
  67. I Think I know what is really happening but nobody would listen anyway from East Coast of Canada, Canada writes: Planet Earth Inc. is in rough shape. I know big business and the wealthy elites will tell you all is well as long as they are rolling in the petrol dollar. Their puppet politicians will say the same.
    When we run out of oil, it is going to be one hell of a show and one I wouldn't want to miss. Only then will the earth start on a path to healing.
  68. gwgm . from T.O., Canada writes: I was wondering what the next racket was going to be... You gotta give them points for creativity!

    30 years ago... freezing in the dark

    20 years ago... acid rain and AIDs

    10 years ago... SARS and then West Nile

    8 years ago... killer sharks attacking us in our homes. That one was cut short by 9-11.

    And more recently, killer hurricanes attacking us in our homes...

    5 years ago... Global Warming... which morphed into Climate Change about two years ago... because any day that is warmer OR cooler than the day before is good reason to send AlGore your money!

    And now this. Beautiful. It's a sign that the Global Warming / Climate Change racket has run its course... thank God! Man, people are stupid. These scams are more transparent than Jimmy Swaggart pretending he's got the keys to heaven, if only you send him your paycheque. If only you give the scientists zillions in grant money to save the world..... puhleeze.

    The only 'Dead Zone' is between the ears of the idiots who lap this stuff up. Just because it's in the media's interest to freak people out to get ratings... doesn't mean it's true.
  69. Bob M from Canada writes: I find the rightwing response machine too political in blaming the messenger. Solutions should be left to scientists if you don't have any to propose. Rightwingers (and I am neutral, definitely not a lefty) need to move up the education ladder if they want to be heard. We live in a knowledge economy now. I am not impressed by appeals to my inner Joe Sixpack.
  70. Canadians can change the world's climate from Cloud nine, Canada writes: The scientists have settled the scientce. Please don't look at any different data. Only the data that says you are killing the planet need apply.

    For those who don't believe in climate change, I give you the Sahara desert.

    For those who believe that man changes the climate, I give you the Sahara desert.

    For those who believe that Stephan Dion or Steven Harper can change the climate( or for that matter any of the nonsense being peddled by the heavy readers of climate change) you can move to my city.

    So, Bob M, in your particular search for the truth, do you appeal to your inner dozen or two-four? Or are you a wino?
  71. Douglas Campbell from writes: Hmmmm.

    gwgm . from T.O., Canada writes:

    '30 years ago... freezing in the dark'
    ...and now energy prices are at or near record highs, sales of gas guzzlers are plummeting, the auto industry is in dislocation, power utilities are scrambling...

    '20 years ago... acid rain and AIDs'
    ...Acid rain destroyed the freshwater fisheries in much of eastern North America. Policy changes were made, and ever so slowly, the process is starting to reverse.
    ...AIDS has killed millions, we now understand roughly how it works, behavioural and cultural changes can limit the transmission.

    '10 years ago... SARS and then West Nile'
    ...SARS brought Toronto to a near-standstill and served as a warning of the potential for new diseases to disrupt our complex society. Global medical mask and glove supplies were almost depleted to cope with this relatively minor outbreak.
    ...West Nile: in my opinion, over-hyped by the media.

    '8 years ago... killer sharks attacking us in our homes. That one was cut short by 9-11.'
    ...Killer sharks, hmmm, I missed that one.

    'And more recently, killer hurricanes attacking us in our homes...'
    ...verdict still out on hurricane strength and frequency.

    '5 years ago... Global Warming... which morphed into Climate Change about two years ago... because any day that is warmer OR cooler than the day before is good reason to send AlGore your money!'
    ...steaming right along. The ice free Arctic: coming soon to a country near you.

    Why are people so angry?
    We make all sorts of economic and and policy and personal decisions on the basis of limited evidence.
    Scientists are paid to publish their data and interpretations.
    The process is not perfect.
    Would you prefer we keep the information and ideas secret?
  72. Alan Burke from ClimateChange.dynalias.com, Canada writes: Pragmatic Pundit, I haven't seen any link to opposing science.

    A rhetorical question? I guess so. I had hoped for better. I'm an optimist.
  73. Aries The Ram from Canada writes: The only way the Earth will ever get on the path to healing, is to reduce the population. I imagine that most would say that is not politically correct, but let's face it, the more the population grows, the worse it gets. We are digging a massive hole for ourselves and no one seems to want to face up to the fact that it is the human race that is the number one cause of our environmental problems. A few centuries ago we had cleaner water and air. The more people, the more problems.
  74. - Coyote from Canada writes: gwgm . from T.O: obviously a case of posting before reading. Search for my above two posts; they were directed at YOU.


    Then boot up Google earth and have a look at the river deltas around the world. You can SEE the s hit.


    Then explain to us how acid rain and Aids, SARS and West Nile are non-issues. Then tell us about Hurricanes and sharks in Canada. When you are done with that go here and tell us how Greg Craven is wrong concerning AGW: Greg Craven: “How it All Ends”
    http://tinyurl.com/5zl9rc


    Anti-intellectuals such as yourself have nothing more than your petty opinions based upon i_gnorance and personal prejudices. I challenge you to try a rational argument.


    Remember that you are fully entitled to your opinions, but also remember that opinions are a dime a dozen. So yours are worth a little less than $0.01. $0.008 to be exact. You are confused as any clown who thinks empty assertions are arguments.


    Anyone can have an opinion, but are yours informed? Prove it with a substantiating argument.
  75. Alan Burke from ClimateChange.dynalias.com, Canada writes: Hey, CCCTWCFCN, do you know much about the southward growth of the Sahara into the Sahel?

    '-The Sahara Desert the largest desert in the world covering an area of 9,000,000 sq km (3,500,000 sq km) roughly the size of the United States, is situated in Northern Africa. The desert owing to several factors is rapidly extending southwards in to Sub Saharan Africa at the rate of 30 miles per year.

    The main factor responsible for the desertification of the Savanna lands lying on the southern border of the Sahara Desert has been increase in the temperature of the region triggered by the global warming phenomenon. Also over grazing of animals has taken its toll on the Savanna region resulting in large scale desertification.

    The practice of planting of trees to stop the advance of the desert has not been particularly successful due to the lack of rainfall or irrigational facilities. Deforestation in the Sub Saharan region has resulted in soil erosion which has transformed lush regions into arid desert lands._'
  76. Canadians can change the world's climate from Cloud nine, Canada writes: The ice free artic....We better move on it soon.
    The Russians aren't gonna go home and tuck themselves in bed after Georgia.
    Think of how rich they will be after they scoop the last of the carbon out of the north in a few hundred years.

    Hey, that's an idea....true planet savers should go to Moscow and stop Putin from changing the climate. Otherwise all the numbers and the gab are about politics...not climate.
  77. Alan Burke from ClimateChange.dynalias.com, Canada writes: 'For those who believe that man changes the climate, I give you the Sahara desert.'

    CCCTWCFCN, thanks, but I don't want it.
  78. Alan Burke from ClimateChange.dynalias.com, Canada writes: You really love red herrings, don't you CCCTWCFCN.
  79. Alan Burke from ClimateChange.dynalias.com, Canada writes: Do you mind if I call you CCCP for short?
  80. - Coyote from Canada writes: In the final tally, whether our concerns are Health, Environmental, Climate Change, or Energy Scarcity, the solution to all these issues is to THROTTLE CONSUMPTION before Progress Traps (Ronald Wright: “A Short History of Progress”) throttle us.


    Consumption was last century's economic model; in a post-Modern world we must convert to a Recycling-based economy. Growth will come from New Energy, not consumer goods. Home Depot, like Walmart, is obsolete.


    But of course, in a capitalist model where growth in consumption is not only desirable but necessary, sustained consumption reduction is absurd, for it creates a serious economic issue -a depression.


    So, lacking a revolution in economic thinking (or an Energy Scarcity crisis) and for the sake of the continuation of the last century's economic model, we are effectively addicted to excessive consumption. And thus also to the ongoing wasting of our water, health and environment in order to sustain and encourage economic growth,


    My entire essay is here:

    Taming the Dragon

    Earth Day, April 22, 2008

    http://www.bigthink.com/science-technology/the-environment/10735
  81. Canadians can change the world's climate from Cloud nine, Canada writes: Alan,
    Yes. I would expect that to continue. Then after Aries the Ram gets his/her/it's wish, it will reverse. I'm curious, if Big Oil( but not big wheat, big tin or big government) is causing all this climate change, how did it happen in the past? I know the science is settled, and we shouldn't be doubting(denying?), but there are an awful lot of things that we don't know regarding the complexity of the climate here.
    So I'm going to move to the States and vote for.....Paris Hilton.
  82. martha stewart from Canada writes: 'The most obvious alternative is to move away from industrial farming and fertilizer use to organic practices, Dr. Diaz said. But while organic farming is growing in popularity with surging demand, it remains a small industry globally.' With 6.5 billion people to feed it will always remain a small industry. The Green Revolution that postponed the global food shortages - as in India - was built on fertilizer. So, as Aries the Ram noted earlier, until the global population explosion ends, and the global population shrinks, looks like these dead zones are now just a new fact of life. The question is, outside of these core zones are there areas with higher fertility and productivity because of this fertilizer? In the department of dreaming, maybe someone can figure out how to harvest and use these massive algae blooms for biofuels. That could help solve two problems at once, and make maximum use of this fertilizer.
  83. Canadians can change the world's climate from Cloud nine, Canada writes: Alan,
    not a problem.
  84. R L from Calgary, Canada writes: Scary – Been there and done that - The issue is not whether this is caused by Global warming and the burning of fossil fuels. The issue is pollution. There are many sources farmers and fertilizers, or industries dumping heavy metals or cities like Victoria dumping raw sewage into the Pacific. Back during the industrial revolution in the late 1800s & early 1900s along the Great Lakes many industrialist had no respect for the Great Lakes and were sure the vastness of these large bodies of fresh water and flushing capacity of the St. Lawrence would wash away the evidence of their thirst for profits. Motto - Dilution is the solution to pollution. By 1950 we saw Lake Erie dying and almost dead. US and Canada realized their industrial actions were killing the lakes and they saved Lake Erie. 60 years later the population is 10 times larger, many very large countries are developing their industries and creating an identical situation in the Oceans but on a grander scale than the Great Lakes situation. They will see their errors. Here in Calgary, we all have many well educated friends in the oil/gas patch and they strongly tell us that the burning of fossil fuels & man’s actions has no impact on Global warming. I know they do not believe that, however, their 6 figure pay cheques & 6 figure bonuses demand them to believe their actions are not impacting the environment. One of these scientific reports will hit home – Silent Spring eventually had an impact, but it took 20 years until Chlorinated Hydrocarbons were taken off the market. Give us credit – we are stupid and we will see the errors in our way. Once again we will bring the environment back from the brink of disaster. We learn from our mistakes. MOM – how much buffer capacity does the ocean of worlds really have? Dad – go we go too far and not recover? Mom and Dad – Are there really smart people who believe man causes no pollution - How smart are they?
  85. Alistair McLaughlin from Canada writes: If I didn't know better, I'd say some of the environutters are posting here right now, saying 'We told you so.' Except they didn't. They were too busy screaming and stomping their feet over global warming and carbon trading to actually notice the real pollutants. While the ocean slowly dies, the Gorezuki crowd prattles on about the best way to trade carbon credits. Nice going guys.
  86. Canadians can change the world's climate from Cloud nine, Canada writes: martha, I like your dreams.

    If it weren't for dreamers, true progress would never have happened.
    The separation of politics and climate is my dream. If were are to tidy up after ourselves, we must start at the source of the dirt......
  87. Alan Burke from ClimateChange.dynalias.com, Canada writes: Regardless, it still comes down to the 'Tragedy of the Commons' and flawed economic theory.

    See 'Brother, Can You Spare Me a Planet?'

    Scientific American, March 2008:

    http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=brother-can-you-spare-me-a-planet
  88. Canadians can change the world's climate from Cloud nine, Canada writes: Coyote,

    Good thinking....but I wonder when we stop buying all the crap, what next? What to do about the millions of Chinese peasants climbing out of the rice paddies trying to achieve a the type of lifestyle that you currently enjoy? Not to mention India. Think they will share your vision of Utopia?
  89. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: The optomistic part of the story , is that these areas will heal quickly, if we stop adding to the problem.This is a lesson learned time and time again. The Environments response to abuse is worse than expected, and the environments response to ceasation of harm excedes expectations.

    Climate change and dead oceans are different manifestations of human disregard for the natural world . The road we have chosen has unacceptable consequences . To save ourselves we need to make different choices.
  90. martha stewart fro