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Man dies after waiting 22 hours at hospital

WHITNEY WOODWARD

Associated Press

Latest comment posted at 1:25 AM EST 21/08/08

Video showed hospital staff watching television and playing cards just a few feet away ...Read the full article

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  1. Mr Ottawa from Canada writes: If staff are not able to provide an adequate explaination for why they couldn't find time to provide basic life essential care for their patients and neglected them to the point of death then I think they should have any medical credentials they've been awarded revoked and they should be prohibited from ever practicing medicine again.
  2. ted canadian from victoria, Canada writes: perhaps this kind health care is one of the kind and thank you from Mr, Bush spend over 500 billion on war?
  3. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:
    The card playing hospital staff should be stripped of their licences and jobs and charged with criminal negligence.
  4. F E from ottawa, Canada writes: Be ready Canada, if Harper gets his majority you are getting a sneak peak at what parts of our health care system will look like 4 years from now.
  5. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, Canada writes: Private health care, mmm, yummy.
  6. jake and pete from Canada writes: Nice system G B, our own Steve is taking notes, God bless us.
  7. Julie Wellington from Canada writes: Nice system they yanks got themselves there.
  8. Robert Dryburgh from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada writes: Harper and Bush.s at fault already. What, nobody has blamed Global warming yet?
  9. ANONY MOOSE from Timmins, writes: This already happens every day in Canada so we don't need a news story out of the U.S. Remember when the Minister from the Ontario government had tears in his eyes vowing to change the way things are done in seniors residences. Well after the tears absolutely nothing was done.
  10. Sammy White from Canada writes: This is exactly what Dr. Robert Ouellet envisions for Canada.
  11. A Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: Ah private health care. No more waits! Top-notch service! This is what we have to look forward to.
  12. mark m from Canada writes: This is what can happen if the likes of Steve Harper are voted into power. God help Canada if Steve gets re-elected with a majority.
  13. samuel t cogley attorney at law from toronto, Canada writes: yes, yes, i can see the harper bashers are out in force. i am "sure" we will do so much better under Mr Turnip Head. after Dion cam up with his carbon tax the conservatives are nearly assured of a majority government at the next election.

    there is no way Dion ever gets to be prime minister.
  14. J Mac from Canada writes: Are you guys kidding? You think this is about the medical system in question as opposed to the individuals working there or, perhaps, the culture in that particular hospital/medical facility? You don't think these atrocities happen in public systems, here or elsewhere?

    Man, am I sick of this attitude from uninformed people who typically seem to think Canada having a mixed health care system would be the end of the world (I'm not talking about exclusively private health care at all, I'm talking about a balance between the two, like every other successful health care system in the world).

    I can only assume that the core mechanic at the heart of the complaints above is that the people that like to throw out these attacks simply love to be able to complain about "the system" instead of individuals or specific organizations - that way they can be sure that they'll have plenty of time to go on and on with their ineffectual whining without anything ever getting done. Typical socialist nonsense and denial (that, guess what, individuals make up the system).

    Every one of those staff people who were negligent should be fired from that facility. At least with a private facility, that's not as difficult to do as with the entrenched "just (barely) enough to get by" service we get in many of our public hospitals.

    Try thinking for a minute instead of just jumping on the most convenient bandwagon to come by - you may find that you are just as (or more) capable of thought as whoever you getting your "speaking points" from.
  15. S Kat from Canada writes: Not a new problem.
  16. Andrew . from Atlanta, United States writes: Rather ironic to hear all the bashing of the US health care system above and then this story appears a few lines down:

    Patrick White, president of the Canadian Psychiatric Association, said the drop in patients' length of stay reflects overall "pressure on the system." Because of hospital bed shortages - or inefficient use of beds allocated for psychiatric care - patients are being discharged more quickly even though they are sicker and more unstable than in the past, he said.
  17. james cyr from Balmertown Ontario, Canada writes: This has nothing to do with private health versus public health, idiotic posts such as the one by Mark m from Canada (8am) and A. Smith to the contrary notwithstanding. Incompetents are everywhere, in all jobs and in all professions.
  18. Kevin Desmoulin from Canada writes: How cold and heartless, playing cards a few feet away.
  19. scott thomas from Canada writes: “My whole career has been about resolving access issues. This is my battle horse,” said Robert Ouellet, who takes over Wednesday as president of the CMA.

    “Private delivery is an accepted practice everywhere in the world and it's time Canada accepted this reality.”
  20. Leigh Broderick from Canada writes: So far you have managed to blame Harper, Bush and others. Don't forget the US Army, the Canadian Forces, global warming, lack of bilingualism, racist and bigots. And start your preaching for a sharia health care.
  21. k p from Montreal, Canada writes: Something similar happened in the early 80's in an NHS hospital, pretty much the low point in the UK's State Health system; The Government grasped the nettle, brought proper management practices into the system, encouraged the parallel system, and now the NHS beats Medicare hands down.

    So I guess those that are trying to use this to prove that parallel systems dont work, you're going to have to try a lot harder
  22. Magnolia Fan from Canada writes: Right on J Mac and james cyr.

    I really don't think this is a private versus public issue. Plenty of people receive substandard or no care in Canada.
  23. Bad Bob from Canada writes: Mr Ottawa from Canada - I agree with you except it did happen so no explanation should come from them. Just lift their credentials and fire the lot of them. No credentials, it is pretty hard to get another job in the medical area.
  24. Billy Talon from Toronto, Canada writes: Andrew . from Atlanta, United States writes: Rather ironic to hear all the bashing of the US health care system above and then this story appears a few lines down:

    Patrick White, president of the Canadian Psychiatric Association, said the drop in patients' length of stay reflects overall "pressure on the system." Because of hospital bed shortages - or inefficient use of beds allocated for psychiatric care - patients are being discharged more quickly even though they are sicker and more unstable than in the past, he said.

    ***

    Excellent post Andrew - seems some Canadians have very short memories when it comes to incompentence in Canadian hospitals.

    I'm sure if I had the time, I could easily find several cases in Canadian hospitals.
  25. The Last Varlet from Canada writes: Of all the medical facilities in the U.S. and Canada, this terrible incident made the news. Yes, it is terrible, but it ignores the thousands of health care workers on both sides of the border who do a great job under very trying circumstances. This is NOT a story about the best system, or the best politicians.
  26. Greg Cleveland from Cleveland, United States writes: This has everything to do with the US health care system. The severely mentally ill generally lack employment and so health insurance. So, whoever ends up caring for them pays for it with minimal, if any, reimbursement from the government. If everybody had health coverage, they could be treated appropriately without bankrupting the hospital.

    You can't say it's solely Mr. Bush's fault, though his party obstructed Mr. Clinton's attempts at reform, and have done nothing since except make the situation worse.

    If you are a US citizen, please register and vote this November. If you have moved to Canada, you can vote absentee in the state where you last resided.
  27. J M from Realityville, Canada writes: Uhhh, this happens in Alberta a few times a year. Pretty much the entire system in Alberta is now privatized so people are dying left right and centre in waiting rooms.
  28. Oswaldo I from Canada writes: This shows that the Canadian health care system is broken . . . Oh wait. This happened in the U.S. Never mind then.
  29. Chairman Meow from Catalinalonia, Canada writes: Budget cuts obviously, and then let Darwinism take it's odious course.
  30. Reid M from Canada writes: Damn CONs! And to think, this all could have been avoided had Bush and Harper just signed kyoto!
  31. Sydney R from Canada writes: So this is the 2nd similar case this summer in the US. Gee, isn't private health care great--for those who can afford it! What does the new President of the CMA have to say about this gem?
  32. Shabesh Shanmuganathan from T., Canada writes: k p from Montreal, Canada
    you're rght
  33. newage blues from United States writes: just read the post by Greg Cleveland (9:20AM). No need for ranting or raving from either side.
  34. r s from Canada writes: Oh well now that everything will be PRIVATE this will never ever happen and the angels will never stop circling the Hosptails and the sun will never set over them........
  35. FDC California from Pasadena, United States writes: This sort of thing happens so often here in the United States it doesn't even get reported by newspapers unless there is something so unique and dramatic about it. Poorly qualified support staff and physicians with misplaced priorities fill the emergency wards and hallways of the hospitals here in the United States. The only person a patient might be able to rely upon for help or compassion are the registered nurses. And don't even think about receiving decent care if you plan on using Medicare, the government medical plan.
  36. Jennifer Menna from Canada writes: This is a sad happening that should not have happened.

    However with regards to the private vs public debate. We do have private delivery of medical services in Canada - all doctors that work outside a hospital in there own offices are private businesses. The difference is that for most services they are paid thru public funds. However if you want to have a procedure that is not covered by OHIP - wart removal, travel shots you have to pay.

    Despite this we have a huge shortage of GP's. Better systems are needed not necessary the private sector. I do however like the idea of not block funding - but a mix of funding - basic services are funded in a block (cleaning etc), other per patient ie treatments.
  37. George Khan from Suburbia, Canada writes: Even though it's clear that both U.S. and Canadian health care systems are failing miserably in a pretty consistent way, I really think that fact can't get the individuals involved off the hook on this; all of them should be held accountable, fired, their licenses revoked for life and charged with, at least, criminal negligence, from the facility's manager to the apathetic nurses and the SOBs playing cards 3 feet away.
    By the way, where the "compassionate care" was left in all this?
  38. Al Fresco from Canada writes: It seems to me that somebody should go to jail over this.
  39. Barry Turner from Ottawa, Canada writes: I can understand the Harperites getting upset about the lefty, anti-private medicine reaction to this story. This story is not about private medicine. It is really about God calling this poor soull home while he was just coincidentally in a private hospital, cared for by privately-employed and paid medical professionals who have legitimate concerns about lack of private medical insurance coverage for some patients who are too cheap, stingy or lazy to pay for it themselves.
  40. gordon davies from Victoria B.C., Canada writes: A travesty I know ,but when its dollars up front or the door, things like this must be not uncommon. With being underpaid & assume low moral indifference will be common.
  41. Joe Dick from Kingston, Canada writes: Reid M from Canada writes: Damn CONs! And to think, this all could have been avoided had Bush and Harper just signed kyoto!

    ===============================================

    LOL!! One day I hope that the lefties on these boards will offer up some sort of logical argument instead of nothing but fear mongering.

    mark m from Canada writes: This is what can happen if the likes of Steve Harper are voted into power. God help Canada if Steve gets re-elected with a majority.

    The ultimate irony and hypocrisy here...is that Harper gets bashed for attack ads.

    What happened to this poor soul is just....oh whats the point of logic or contributing something meaningful....damn you Harper you bad bad man you....Harrperrrrrrrr!!!
  42. michael luger from montréal, québec, Canada writes: "(...)Mr. Lawrence said the Mr. Sabock incident is isolated but that officials are concerned."

    Isolated?, the same thing happen a couple of months ago, 'cept the staff kicked that corpse to see if it would move.

    Thank goodness that we have cameras everywhere, in a couple more years we'll have enough video to make a movie about how contemptable we've become; because god knows that we're not going to fix this.
  43. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: FDC California writes, "This sort of thing happens so often here in the United States it doesn't even get reported by newspapers unless there is something so unique and dramatic about it." Usually this is covered in the local media (e.g., Chicago newspaper and TV news sites) while most Canadians who get US news, especially on Canadian sites like this one, are mostly exposed to national and international affairs or business issues. As someone who has lived and worked in both countries, Canadian medicare (as someone pointed out, it's the payment that is public not the services) is better than what critics take it to be while the US system is skewed towards the rich ... traditional fee-for-service, which now covers 10% of the insured and now for the elite where it was common 15 years ago, is where comparisons are usually made - not HMO's that cover 70% of the insured or PPO's the remaining 20% (and degradation of benefits, so those folks are likely to find themselves underinsured). Look at France, who have combined some of the best parts of both systems into their "extra billing" style mixed system.
  44. Sybil Jackson from Gravenhurst, Canada writes: I've never worked in a hospital or any place where people were in life-threatening situations. That being said I've never worked anywhere there was time to play cards or watch TV.

    I've never even worked in a place where cards or TV were available.

    I'm retired now but keep reading about how stressed people are on their jobs. How about doing the work you're being paid for?
  45. N. American from United States writes: "A typical Canadian seeking surgical or other therapeutic treatment had to wait 18.3 weeks in 2007, an all-time high, according to new research published Monday by independent research organization the Fraser Institute."
  46. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Michael Luger writes, "Isolated?, the same thing happen a couple of months ago, 'cept the staff kicked that corpse to see if it would move." That was in New York City, where someone expired in a hospital waiting room. In LA, there was an issue of patient dumping where indigents were dropped off by hospital staff on skid row regardless of their circumstances. Enough of this stuff is happening in the US that it's finally bubbling up to the national news level.
  47. DOWN TRODDEN from calgary, Canada writes: americans are animals in the way they treat the sick and poor. I was in Denver last week and on the news a man was told that the government would rather pay for him to seek assisted suicide than pay for his cancer treatment because he was not guaranteed to live for more than 5 years.. how sick is that, and these are governments elected by the people down there. its appauling that americans feel the need to criticize other countries on human right when some of thos countries provide better care for thier sick than america. Shame on the workers at the ospital and shame on the citizens that let this go on.
  48. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: George Khan writes, "Even though it's clear that both U.S. and Canadian health care systems are failing miserably in a pretty consistent way, ..." In each their own ways. Canada is usually bashed with comparisons to what is actually elite, not typical, health service in the US. Even in that other Toronto Canadian national newspaper, one of their editorial board members (maybe Jonathan Kay?) wrote about having to spend time in an ER waiting room at a Florida hospital when something happened to them on vacation.

    At extreme ends, Canada needs the relief valve that hybrid systems offer in most of western Europe. The US has a problem with the uninsured (and those who freeload by choice, getting indigent care paid for by others) and a growing under-insured problem by those with coverage.
  49. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Down Trodden writes, "I was in Denver last week and on the news a man was told that the government would rather pay for him to seek assisted suicide than pay for his cancer treatment because he was not guaranteed to live for more than 5 years." That was referring to a case in Oregon, where assisted suicide is legal. The state has a public health plan for those who are poor enough to lack coverage but unable to qualify for "Medicaid", a federally subsidized plan for the dirt poor, not working poor. Cuts to the Oregon plan have hit some coverage, like his cancer drugs. There have been cases where cuts in pharmaceutical coverage has led to patients seeking indigent care for far, far, far more cost than granting them the pills in the first place. Penny wise, pound foolish.

    Even private health plans have their limits. I have witnessed one case of a C-level executive who retired because she maxed out her lifetime $5 Million coverage cap due to recurrent cancers, basically going off to die.
  50. sam johnson from Canada writes: the wonderful american "health" systems so many in canada will strive to duplicate.
  51. Wally Wally from Canada writes: mark m from Canada writes: This is what can happen if the likes of Steve Harper are voted into power.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't hospitals under the Provincial jurisdiction. If so, how would this be the fault of an elected Federal govt.

    My sympathies to the man who died. An unnecessary death for sure.
  52. Tristis Ward from Fredericton, Canada writes: Okay, seriously, this can and has happened here, so it is not like it's about Americans or specifically private care.

    On the other hand. In the same way that private for-profit prisons take short-cuts on staff and payroll to the detriment of proper care, private hospitals do the same.

    Private industry works on the bottom line. In a market where the product is consumer controlled, you might get better service. So lets admit that the clinics and cancer treatment centres are stellar in the U.S.

    In markets where the product is confinement (such as prisons or mental hospitals) or care of the disenfranchised, there is less emphasis needed on the quality of the individual units (that would be the prisoners/patients) of that product. The private company is only competing for the state/municipal satisfaction of numbers vs. budget. When they look at maximizing profit they do not factor in a need for top notch care. The biggest cost is manpower. Cut down payroll and you make your profit.

    Properly funded public facilities with tight regulations are the only way to lessen (probably never eliminate) this type of mistreatment. We as a society care for our members. We as business people care for our investment.
  53. Fake Name from Canada writes: What does this have to do with a doctor punching a teenaged patient who bit him? That part sounds only reasonable; the little thug should be grateful he didn't wind up with one of those order-of-magnitude medication dosing errors. Purely by accident, of course.
  54. Thomas Morris from New York, NY, United States writes: The only difference here is that yes this happens in Canada too. It's just that when the G&M writes an article on canadian healthcare problems - the comments are CLOSED. Why is that? You can air and beat up the USA - but not your own?
  55. sam johnson from Canada writes: thomas morris - they usually close the comments down when it becomes a pit of hollering loonies whose main aim in life is to make the most infantile comments that have nothing to do with the subject.
    it's a fact of life, ignorance rules.
  56. Billy Talon from Toronto, Canada writes: Thomas Morris from New York, NY, United States writes: The only difference here is that yes this happens in Canada too. It's just that when the G&M writes an article on canadian healthcare problems - the comments are CLOSED. Why is that? You can air and beat up the USA - but not your own?

    ***

    This is in today's G & M about private health care in Canada, Thomas.

    theglobeandmail.com

    Plenty of comments and still plenty of time for you to comment.

    Everyone knows this happens in Canada - the Canadians who don't think this happens in Canada are usually just delusional.
  57. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Gary Dare:-- Great posts, as always.
  58. MR. oz from Canada writes: thomas Morris!
    Did you also notice that whenever israel is being criticized that there are either no comments allowed, orf they are are being closed quickly!
  59. Cruthin Clan from Brampton, Canada writes: Just go to Brampton Civic Hospital and you'll see worse.
  60. Dr Demento from Canada writes: Barry Turner from Ottawa, Canada writes: "It is really about God calling this poor soul home while he was just coincidentally in a private hospital, cared for by privately-employed and paid medical professionals . . ."

    Actually the Cherry Hospital is a State owned and operated PUBLIC facility that was specifically founded in 1877 to treat mentally ill black people. Its original name was the Asylum for Colored Insane.

    This incident shows what happens under a two tier system - the level of service in the public side of the system suffers . . .

    http://www.cherryhospital.org/history.htm
  61. Leslie North from writes: I am a Canadian living in the USA for six years now and I have to say the healthcare I've experienced here is unbeatable. I had no complaints while living in Canada either, however I know things have changed in Canada having family there.
    This facility that allowed the resident to die from lack of attention is not a reflection on the healthcare system in the U.S. It's a reflection on the staff and I believe should be up on criminal charges and not simply being fired ! They are responsible for this death and there is no way to suggest anything different.
  62. Alex MacLean from Toronto, Canada writes: Free enterprise health care mediated by market values is obviously the answer. When people are motivated by self-interest, the economy produces the optimum outcome for all involved. Unless the commodity at issue happens to be um, a...human being, they might disagree - but not for too long, apparently. I suppose they can claim that scarce resources were not expended on someone who was no longer productive, either that or admit that this was a 'sub-optimal outcome.' A great point-to case for Tony "community doctors are evil hypocrites" Clement. One can only imagine how such a system will deal with drug addiction, or even Grandma when she drops below her one bedtime story/week minimum.
  63. Paul I from Rochester NY, United States writes: Baby Boomers- This is a glimpse of your future. Millions of boomers overcrowded into nursing homes while the minimum-wage felons hired to take care of you play cards and watch TV.
  64. B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: Some pretty idiotic comments here, and the usual ideologues. "This must be because of private health care!" Guess what: what they did is )not permitted in the U.S. either_.

    And even though pretty much every other developed country has a system more privatized than Canada's (and many of them work much better), any deviation from pure socialism in this situation will not be tolerated in an otherwise non-socialist country... why? What kind of sad state of affairs does a country have to be in that a somewhat arbitrary medical system is deemed untouchable or part of its heritage/identity? Come on, we're not there yet.
  65. Better to light a small candle than to sit and curse the darkness from Canada writes: Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:
    The card playing hospital staff should be stripped of their licences and jobs and charged with criminal negligence.
    *****************************************************
    Of course. However when a hospital is badly run, the fault lies with the hospital administration. Clean house and make sure that whoever was responsible for the efficient adminstration of these hospitals are never put in positions of like responsibility again.
    The same thing goes when cops mess up. The daily operation of
    any organizaton which is concerned with the safety or health of people should be overseen diligently. Selection and training are
    extremely important in hospitals, police forces and any such organization. Slovenly, slothful, harmful and couldn't-care-less attitudes must never, never be tolerated.
    CYMRO
  66. Joe Citizen from Everytown, Canada writes: Sounds like Harper Healthcare.
  67. Kerry H from Canada writes: LOL.."The Lefties".. I keep picturing this guy sitting there picking corn out of his teeth with a match package..
  68. Craig W from Calgary, Canada writes: keep healthcare public and make every employee, hospital board of directors, and those otherwise responsible, accountable to tax payers. It's our health, therefore it's us who care about the help we receive. Citizens' health should not be a for-profit enterprise, otherwise you see slippage, and unaccountable slippage at that, such as in this case.

    These employees, the management at this hospital, and the regional health authority (if there is such a thing south of the border) should be publicly strung up, but I doubt if anyone with any real control will pay at all in this matter. Truly a shame.
  69. The Work Farce from Canada writes: Terrible tragedy that shouldn't have happened. But how is cutting off the hospital's funding going to help?
  70. North Star from Canada writes: Ah, the advantages of private health care!
  71. O Canada from Canada writes: N. American from United States writes:..yes, and a person in the US without health care coverage has to wait their whole life (what's left of it or until they can afford the thousands of dollars to pay for it).

    I'll take a few weeks.
  72. Blue Unicorn from Ottawa, Canada writes: You sure this was in North Carolina? Sound like something that would happen in our public care system.
  73. O Canada from Canada writes: Leslie North - I lived in the US for 5 years and had great coverage but my employer paid over $4000. I make the same money here as I made there and yet I take home more here. And, since I lived in D.C., I paid 8% tax. So I'm not paying that much more in taxes yet my employer paid $4,000 for my incredible insurance. I could not have paid this myself, from my own salary, if my employer couldn't.

    I have had excellent care in Canada and I have nothing to complain about. I'm not delusional, either. I had the same operation in the US and Canada. In Canada my arm was frozen, operated on in my doctor's office and I was sent home right after. Follow-up care was no problem. My arm works great. In the US I had to go under, operating room, nurses, recovery and follow-up. Also great but as you can much more expensive. Fine when covered but impossible when you don't have covereage. The bill in the US (discounted) was$16,000.

    The problems of health care will never be solved in the US, Canada, UK or anywhere else around the world. You just have to find a way to make it work for the most people, most of the time.
  74. Dr Demento from Canada writes: B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: "Some pretty idiotic comments here, and the usual ideologues . . . And even though pretty much every other developed country has a system more privatized than Canada's"

    There's an idiotic comment if I ever heard one. Actually only 6 out of 25 OECD countries have a more privatized healthcare system than Canada - Greece (61.6%), South Korea (55.1%), Mexico (44.2%), Poland (69.9%), Switzerland (60.3%) and the USA (45.8%).
    Public healthcare accounts for 70.4% of Canada's healthcare costs. In France the figure is 79.9%. I wish some of you partisan ideologues would check the facts prior to posting . . .

    http://stats.oecd.org/wbos/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=HEALTH
  75. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Leslie North writes, "This facility that allowed the resident to die from lack of attention is not a reflection on the healthcare system in the U.S." Both your experience (Canadian expats in the US will tend to be white collar and among the 20% in PPO's or even 10% with traditional fee-for-service) and those of this poor soul and other 'incidents' reported on local news sites are valid reflections across the spectrum of a very varied system. Just like how Canada is varied, living in Toronto versus Moose Jaw, or having or lacking 'blue cross' (affects your ability to, say, send your kid to Sick Kids) covers a spectrum.

    Blue Unicorn - this sort of stuff happens everywhere. For the US, you have to follow the local news for the 'ordinary' medical incidents. I recommend the Chicago Tribune or CBS 2 Chicago (WBBM), below, in a metro area having a larger population than the province of Quebec.

    http://cbs2chicago.com/
  76. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Dr Demento writes, "In France the figure is 79.9%." That's the amount of spending out of the public purse (includes dental, and pharma beyond what we have like Pharmacare in Manitoba) but the other 20% is spent on what we call 'extra billing' in Canada. Only 25% of French go to public clinics at no extra charge, the rest combine public and private insurance (or in some cases, for the rich, full retail).

    Earlier, Dr Demento writes, "This incident shows what happens under a two tier system - the level of service in the public side of the system suffers . . ." When I arrived in Chicago on a previous transfer, the first medical incident that I saw on their local news was a man from suburban Winnetka who died at the U of Chicago hospital from an anesthetic blunder. Rich guy, top rank private hospital.
  77. Jacques Shellac from Montreal, QC, Canada writes: Another pointless exchange in the G&M comments section.

    The death for this man must have been horrible.
  78. Randy McClure from Canada writes: samuel t cogley attorney at law from toronto, Canada writes: after Dion cam up with his carbon tax the conservatives are nearly assured of a majority government at the next election.

    there is no way Dion ever gets to be prime minister.

    .... except that right now 70% of canadians would not vote conservative in an election. People are so tired of the neo-conservatives (including genuine, communitarian, conservatives) that in an election momentum will go to Dion. I think NDP and Green voters will hold their noses and vote Liberal just to get rid of one of the most small-minded, provincialist, naive and untalented governments we've had in a generation. Every day there are more screw-ups and gaffe's, ever day we learn more details of how the cons cheated in the last election. Canadians don't want this government, we're just stuck with a terrible electoral system. But now we're waking up and we'll just put together a Liberal minority/green/ndp coalition and start moving forward again and regaining our reputation internationally.
  79. Dr Demento from Canada writes: Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: "That's the amount of spending out of the public purse (includes dental, and pharma beyond what we have like Pharmacare in Manitoba) but the other 20% is spent on what we call 'extra billing' in Canada."

    Are you claiming that the French have no supplementary health insurance and that ALL the private spending is on extra billing. I'd be curious to see some proof of that and of your claim that only 25% of the French use the public system alone . . .
  80. M D from Canada writes: Don't assume this couldn't happen here - just hope and pray you never have to go to a Canadian emergency room and find out how bad it can be.
  81. Dr Demento from Canada writes: Gary Dare; you are incorrect. The French rely heavily on supplemental health insurance to cover procedures not covered by the public health insurance system (just as Canadians do). The Boston Globe reports that nearly 90 % of the French population possesses such coverage.

    French specialists are permitted to charge up to 15% more than the government insurance program pays them. Most supplemental health insurance policies pay the difference.

    http://tinyurl.com/2ndhlq
  82. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Dr Demento writes, "Are you claiming that the French have no supplementary health insurance and that ALL the private spending is on extra billing." Where did I say that? Supplementary health insurance covers most of the extra billing portion, which can sometimes be substantial. The 80% covered by the state that you give doesn't break down the distribution of spending, which includes some of the best ER's on the planet and dental.
  83. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: P.S. to Dr Demento: since you once lived in Ontario, and I was in Toronto for part of the mid/late 80's, I recall that our 'blue cross' covered some of the extra billing and stuff outside OHIP, like treatment that I had in the Lloyd Percival sports medicine clinic at York University for an ankle fracture (running injury).

    When I was in Grenoble briefly between Chicago and Portland, I was told the 75% figure and that's what people took for conventional knowledge. The 90% figure that you cite is surprising, then again I've only come across one of their public clinics - in the Bastille district of Paris.
  84. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: M D writes, "Don't assume this couldn't happen here ..." Of course not, it's just that a lot of people don't think that it happens elsewhere, especially not in the US. Until recently, medical incidents (like drive-by shootings, still) rarely rose above the level of local news because the US is so large and so much is going on with national and international issues. But health care is now an issue for those outside the 10% of insured with traditional fee-for-service.
  85. Dr Demento from Canada writes: Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: "Where did I say that? Supplementary health insurance covers most of the extra billing portion"

    You stated that 20% went to pay for extra billing - you didn't mention supplementary insurance. The same thing is true in Canada. I have supplementary health insurance through my employer that covers dental care, prescriptions, ambulance, eye care, semi-private hospital room etc.

    The fact is that more PUBLIC (i.e. government) money goes to healthcare in France than in Canada. I'm not sure what your point is . . .
  86. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Dr Demento writes, "You stated that 20% went to pay for extra billing - you didn't mention supplementary insurance." I wrote at 4:32 PM EDT, "... the other 20% is spent on what we call 'extra billing' in Canada. Only 25% of French go to public clinics at no extra charge, the rest combine public and private insurance (or in some cases, for the rich, full retail)." So once you hit the public cap (it used to be a sliding scale), the private coverage takes over. You mentioned the range that doctors can charge under their regulated market, there are also doctors and hospitals for the elite who charge even more (and that includes foreigners, Yasir Arafat's daughter was born in Paris, the president of Zambia just died in Paris, and Charlie Rose of PBS elected to have heart surgery and recuperation in Paris rather than fly back to New York City). I was told that a third tier of insurance exists, or the elites could go 'full retail'.
  87. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Dr Demento writes, "The fact is that more PUBLIC (i.e. government) money goes to healthcare in France than in Canada. I'm not sure what your point is . . ." Merely that it's not 80:20 across the board. Someone who uses the public clinic like the one that I came across in La Bastille district would not have any additional out of pocket charges. Urgence Sante' paramedics and mobile nurses are funded out of the public's 80% share as well as public dental coverage and a generous pharma benefit. Whereas the 20% of health funds paid privately is a combination of extra billing covered by your private plan or full retail purchases, depending on circumstances.

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