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IOC: No proof China cheated

Associated Press

Latest comment posted at 11:37 PM EST 21/08/08

International Olympic Committee says that despite the questions surrounding host's gymnasts, there is still no concrete evidence ...Read the full article

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  1. Blaque Jacque Shallaque from Canada writes: Poor little girl.

    She's worked so hard.

    Now she's caught up in this political mess.

    The IOC is the main culprit, as they knew about this issue long ago, but can no longer ignore it.

    Sad.
  2. Colin Rose from Halifax, Canada writes: Actually, if the allegations are true, the Chinese Olympic organizers are the main culprits.
  3. Rusty Waters from Canada writes: The IOC should leave the girl alone. Let her enjoy her accomplishment. All the power to her if she is younger. Why discriminate against youth. Kids particpate in sports a lot younger in high school and travel around the country for competitions. Just look at the young hockey players in Canada. We had a 61 year old there and nobody complained. Should be no age discrimination.
  4. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: Younger, more flexible, greater advantage...chinese cheaters...now a disgrace...maybe...she was good though for a 14 year old....
  5. Geoff Virgo from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: Rusty Waters, how can the IOC choose which of their rules to enforce and which to ignore? If they ignore this, a very clear rule, they then have no legs to said on with other rules including the use of banned performance enhancers. No, if China knowingly falsified documents in order to place an ineligible competitor on their team then all measures should be taken which would, in this case, include forfeiture of the team gymnastics gold as well as her personal event gold.
  6. J. Bergin from Canada writes: Rusty Waters from Canada writes: The IOC should leave the girl alone. Let her enjoy her accomplishment. All the power to her if she is younger. Why discriminate against youth

    Yes, let's reward the Chinese government for cheating and making young children lose their childhoods for the good of the state.
  7. P B from Calgary, Canada writes: Um, Rusty, there is actually a rule about the minimum age for a gymnast at the Olympics, hence the controversy here. The rule is intended to protect underage gymnasts from being pushed into training that may be harmful, while also creating a more level competitive field. Perhaps you think the rule is unfair. Okay, but then we'll have a debate over which rules matter.

    If the Chinese government issued passports to these gymnasts with dates of birth that are false, then, for me, the responsibility for this snafu sits with the government. The gymnast, in that scenario, may become a victim, but we should hardly be rewarding a government for fraud just because the IOC was late to investigate the allegations.
  8. stickers11 L from New Westminster, Canada writes: Good luck ever nailing down her true birthdate....who's to say her birth certificate hasn't already been 'updated'.
  9. Stan W from Winnipeg, Canada writes: If the Chinese wanted a competition with 'flexible rules', one they could run as an internal affair, they should not have picked the Olympic games.

    The age of 16 was chosen to protect the athletes from exploitation.

    If 14 is not too young, then the minimum age should be changed for all countries competing, and the decision to do that made well ahead of the games.
  10. Stan W from Winnipeg, Canada writes: If He has been in international competitions before, there may be photocopies of her earlier passport's summary page on file around the world, with airlines, immigration departments, hotels, and competition organizing associations.
  11. CM Chen from Toronto, Canada writes: The Toronto Star carries a more detailed article than this Reuters one

    http://olympics.thestar.com/2008/article/483329

    The computer expert who did the original digging of the story providing a very detailed step by step illustration on how he got his results.

    http://strydehax.blogspot.com/

    As the evidence mounts, the sad part or us ethnic Chinese, is how a totalitarian gov't officials in the name of nationalism and glory for the motherland, may take so much steps to cheat and then to cover up.

    This alleged behaviour is injurious to all of the competing gymnasts, and even more so to those wonderful achievement of Chinese and other athletes who follow the rules and the personal sacrifices to make their achievements.

    P.S. body shape of underage gymnast may provide advantages over older competitors. But more than that is the issue of the pervasive govt official actions.
  12. Tim Rutkevich from Canada writes: The Communist Party brought shame onto Chinese people. This is conspiracy that going dip into POLITBURO, same as substituting 7 years girl in opening ceremony. This puts Chinese Communist party on the same level as child molesters.
  13. Ned Chiwalski from Oilberta, Canada writes: Rusty Waters from Canada writes: The IOC should leave the girl alone. Let her enjoy her accomplishment. All the power to her if she is younger. Why discriminate against youth

    There is no discrimination. The rules were put into place because as a girl get older their bodys start to change and the flexability and low center of gravity of a 13 or 14 year old is much different that that of a 16 year old. Hence all the other countries that were playing by the rules are at a disadvantage.

    So if you don't care about cheating then lets give back all the olympic medals that were taken away from the sprinters, weight lifters that were doping etc. After all they sould be allowed to enjoy their accomplishments also.
  14. diane marie from calgary, Canada writes: Earth to men. A pre-pubescent girl has narrow hips, no breasts to speak of, therefore more muscle and bone as a proportion of total weight. Result: physical advantage in this sport.
  15. Roop Misir from Toronto, Canada writes: Age or talent? Which has more merit?
  16. Chris Lalonde from Singapore writes: The rules were set and agreed by the international to protect children from getting hurt. Breaking these rules is plain cheating and shows a lack of moral scruples.
  17. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Let's wait for the IOC investigations to conclude before passing any judgement in this matter.

    After all, Canada is not a totalitarian regime.

    Cheers
  18. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Don't feed the trolls !
  19. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'Blaque Jacque Shallaque from Canada writes: Poor little girl. She's worked so hard. Now she's caught up in this political mess.

    The IOC is the main culprit, as they knew about this issue long ago, but can no longer ignore it. '
    __________

    if this girl is underage, the IOC is an accessory for sure. the main culprits would be the ones who entered her in the competition knowing she was underage. its a mess for sure, and one this gymnast may never fully understand (depending on what version of the story she is made privy to).
  20. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: I repeat... Don't feed the trolls !
  21. desiderio manzanal jr from laval, Canada writes: Yeah how many 14 years old will have skills and maturity to beat the top gymnast at 16 years of age. All these girls are flexible. Winning gold is not only to do with flexibility but with maturity...ability to handle pressure under intense competition. Again how can you prove she is unde 16
  22. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: James C from Shenzhen, China writes:

    if this girl is underage, the IOC is an accessory for sure.

    How do you figure that ?

    Were the IOC 'an accessory' for the Ben Johnson affair ?

    Why can't the involved country not take any credit for this ?

    Cheers
  23. Chris Lalonde from Singapore writes: Tgzo tgzo from Canada writes: The rules were set and agreed by the international to protect children from getting hurt.

    TYPICAL WESTERN IDIOCY AND ATTEMPT TO SPEAK FOR EVERYONE, WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? GOD?

    Uhm, Tgzo, tgzo .... The Olympics is an International Organization not one comprises only Western countries. An agreement was made by the members of the International Organization. If you are to compete in the Olympics, you're obliged to play by the rules, right?
  24. Dana Cruickshank from Canada writes: I don't even know that 16 is an old enough age. But its significantly better than 14. It takes a lot of work and dedication to become as good as any of these gymnasts, but at the age of 14 you shouldn't put the pressure on these young children, not to mention the amount of your childhood spent training. The rules are there for a good reason, and in my opinion this girl doesn't look 16, and the government could just print fake passports, its not that difficult.

    Its defiantly a problem in female gymnastics, but not male simply because the male events require such upperbody strength that you would need to be older to be strong enough.
  25. S H from Calgary, Canada writes: Not to take anything away from our Canadian girls that we sent - but if the age restriction didn't apply to everyone we could have sent who I believe is Canada's best chance for a medal...Peng Peng Lee. Too young by about 6 months. That's why it's a big deal. Fairness. Watch for her in 2012 though.
  26. F E from ottawa, Canada writes: No doubt the Americans are behind this , once greedy and selfish always greedy and selfish. She won, now live her be.
  27. Brian Van Ezel from Ottawa, Canada writes: Government sanctioned child labour.
  28. Happy King from Canada writes: Wait a second, you a bunch of loasers. IOC hasn't concluded yet. Even though she is underaged, so what? Is that worse than taking drugs? Those who take this apportunity to bash China and deny the good job done by the Beijing Olympic organizer is a shame! It has nothing to do with the organizer!
  29. Billy Bob from Saskatchewan from Canada writes: You know with everything that we hear going on in China these days nothing they do over there surprises me anymore. I wouldn't be surprised to hear next week that the sky over Beijing was just an elaborate mock-up held up by gigantic panda shaped blimps.
  30. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: James C from Shenzhen, China writes: if this girl is underage, the IOC is an accessory for sure.
    _________

    How do you figure that ? Were the IOC 'an accessory' for the Ben Johnson affair ? Why can't the involved country not take any credit for this ? Cheers'
    _________

    mr miller, i'm only pointing out that the IOC is an accessory IF they knew that this gymnast was underage beforehand, as blacque jacques shellacue alleges @ 8:12 (he doesnt provide any source for his allegation though). IF the IOC didnt know about it, and the gymnast is really underage, then china gets the full 'credit' for the incident.
  31. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: happy king, its not the same thing as a drug cheat really. but part of the punishment would be the same (if the allegation that she's underage is proven true). that is to say, she would lose the medal i believe. it would be a shame for that to happen.... but its a possibility. lets wait and see what happens in the investigation.
  32. J D from Calgary, Canada writes: It is truly sad that at least to some, the Olympics is about winning at any cost. Whether it be for national or personal reasons, cheating is still cheating. Rules are there for all. Play by the rules or risk being caught and disgraced.

    What is also sad are the numerous posts by apologists for cheaters. They are disgracing themselves.
  33. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'F E from ottawa, Canada writes: No doubt the Americans are behind this , once greedy and selfish always greedy and selfish. She won, now live her be.'
    __________

    wait a moment.... its ok to cheat (if the allegation is true) but not ok to call someone out on cheating, because then you would be greedy and selfish? how can i argue with that sound line of thinking.... LOL
  34. P cheng from ottawa, Canada writes: 'The rules were set and agreed by the international to protect children from getting hurt.'

    Does this rule make sense ? I watch the final. S. Johnson starts the thing when she is 6. Why they want to do all the danger action? We encourages them to do it. They should use the old approach. No 'difficult' point and limit the number of diffult actions.
  35. Rob L from Vancouver, Canada writes: Tim, would you rather have your daughter substituted or have your daughter molested? How on earth can you say the two acts are the same?

    -----

    Tim Rutkevich from Canada writes: The Communist Party brought shame onto Chinese people. This is conspiracy that going dip into POLITBURO, same as substituting 7 years girl in opening ceremony. This puts Chinese Communist party on the same level as child molesters.
  36. bill k from Canada writes: this NA propaganda is sicking. China is kicking the US butt and all they can come up with is He is to young? LOL if that were true the US should hang their head in shame for getting their butts kicked by a young girl who didn't get to train as many years as the other US gym. I like to see THE BEST in the world and He has proven she is THE BEST.
  37. cherry hill from Toronto, Canada writes: Phelps competed at the 2000 Summer Olympics in Sydney when he was only 15. U.S. exploited such a young kid, What a shame! LOL

    Talking about Cheating? Canada (Check Toronto Star) is the only country in the world followed American's New Medal Rankings specially designed for 2008 Beijing Olympics. Wanna see how the World is laughing at you guys? Check comments on The New York Times:

    theglobeandmail.com
  38. Chilled One from Canada writes: Give her a break, surviving infanticide and all.........
  39. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: James C from Shenzhen, China:

    We agree on your last post.

    Nevertheless, we should all likely await the results of the IOC's investigation into this matter before deciding that anyone is guilty of breaking any rules.

    Cheers
  40. Sufei Zhang from Vancouver, Canada writes: I bet the IOC would get nothing out of the probe. Ms. He will keep her gold.

    Technically, there is no scientific method to determine the precise age of a human. The birth certificate, or school records, of Ms. He have certainly been 'perfectly prepared' far before the games began if she is really 14. From the photo and from the fact that I'm a Chinese having good judgement on the age of another Chinese, I have 90% confidence that Ms. He is younger than my niece who had her 15th birthday party last week.

    Politically, it doesn't take a rocket scientist's intelligence to know that IOC was already bought by the Chinese communist party back in 2001 when it awarded the games to Beijing.

    What a wonderful world.
  41. G. Veneta from Calgary, Canada writes: I feel sorry for her but if she's even 14 I'd be surprised. She doesn't look 16 compared to other 16 year olds competing and the 16 year olds in Canada.

    China will no doubt falsify documents if their human rights records are any indication. This would hardly be a crime in their books compared to the imprisonment of any that dare speak against the government.

    She is simply a young girl that is a star athlete even if she is only 14 and a victim in this all.
  42. YOW YAK from Ottawa, Canada writes: China may have bent the rule but the rule makes no sense.

    If the sport in question is better performed by younger athletes then so be it. The exploitation argument does not hold water as all of these gymnasts begin their (intensive) training at a very young age.

    Ditto for the 'avoid injury' argument.

    For the rule to make sense, training too must be banned until they are 16.
  43. Rain Couver from Canada writes: The IOC should enforce the age rule if there is evidence that she is too young, but let's face it, the Chinese are good at pirating, they will fake some papers claiming she's the right age.

    If she is stripped of her medal, she can still compete when she is the right age. She is extremely talented and is potentially the victim of Chinese zeal to win as many medals as possible, whom have already tarnished these olympics from smog to little girls lip synching during the opening ceremonies.
  44. Denis Love from Victoria BC, Canada writes: The London Times is carrying the story and there are a couple of others with age issues. Seems some computer expert saw documents with age differences and now the documents are gone. wold a country stoop so low as to produce fraudulent passports? we should soon find out. If a country does such a thing what else might they do as they push for medals. China should never have got the Olympics circus
  45. Eric Kirkpatrick from Vancouver, B.C., Canada writes: Among the Western nations personal and corporate greed will drive individuals to cheat. In China, particularly with this Olympics, national pride is the motivating factor and may bring about some cheating. Hey, even Norway doped (painkiller) a horse in the equestrian event.
  46. Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes: Frankly I hope this athlete is not under-age, but unfortunately there seems to be quite a bit of evidence that she could be. If so, this will be THE scandal of the 2008 games, much more serious than lip-synching at the opening ceremonies.

    I don't see how the IOC could be implicated ... surely they didn't knowing let an under-age athlete compete. If she is under-age, the blame will fall squarely on the shoulders of Chinese officials.

    It's debatable whether the 16 yr. cut off limit is appropriate for this sport or not. After all, it appears that gymnasts may be at their best when they are younger than 16. If so, why not have the age limit at 14?
  47. Toronto Reader from Toronto, Canada writes: Asian generally look younger than they really are. I've known people in their 30s who look just as if they were still 18. Back in college days, an asian friend of mine who was 22 at the time, looked like she was a 16 yr old and gets IDed wherever she goes :)

    We should all leave this girl alone. She put on a good show, regardless of the age, she deserves the medals.
  48. Toronto Reader from Toronto, Canada writes: Oh, also want to mention. The rule about age makes no sense. To be good enough to complete in Olympics, one would be training very hard at a very young age.

    So what is the point of saying 16 is the right age and 14 is too young when they are training hard anyways at any given age (and coud possibly be injured during training)?
  49. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Eric Kirkpatrick from Vancouver, B.C., Canada:

    And your point is what exactly ?

    You are now A-OK with cheaters ?

    Cheers
  50. Phillip Dawes from Canada writes: Age or talent are not the real issues here.

    The real question is whether or not she pretty enough to promote China's national interest????
  51. evelyn robinson from Canada writes: Sounds like sour grapes complaining from the losers.
    Many chinese girls are tiny so they do look younger.
  52. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: Well, that was quick...

    Investigation over...

    The title of this article is now...

    'IOC: No proof that China cheated...'

    Another potential Olympic crisis averted .... Back to your work stations, please !

    Cheers
  53. J Kay from Canada writes: Ok a few comments:

    First give me a break that FIG (NOT the IOC) set the rules to be 16 to protect young girls from being exploited into competing at this level at the tender age of 14. If girls who are 14 are not already competing at or near this level by then they wont be by 16. Olympic gymnasts start as kids. Nadia Comaneci started at 6 and won at 14, when 14 was the age FIG had set. Karen Kensall competed at those same games at the tender age of 13, with the approval of the IOC.

    FIG set the age as 16 not because younger girls have an unfair advantage, I have yet to find a single bit of evidence that is compelling which suggests that. FIG from what I have read set the age for Olympic competition to keep older women and girls doing gymnastics and competing. Prior to the age change to 16 (which happened in 1997), many Olympic level girls were retiring by 17.

    Is age an advantage? Maybe, however muscle mass and strength are required for floor for example, and muscle mass increases to some degree with age as it takes time to develop. Shawn Johnson is solid on floor because she's heavily muscled compared to her competitors.

    Are younger girls more flexible? No or at least no more flexible than an any other elite level gymnast. Even the men at age above 18 can demonstrate incredible flexibility, so I don't really see this as an advantage. Look at Oksana Chusovitna who got silver in vault, who is 33 years old and yet is able to complete the twists and flips of younger girls.

    The Olympics is about the best in the world competing. If 14 year old girls are so obviously better than 16 year old girls then let them compete. At that level and especially in gymnastics it is hugely a mental game and dealing with the pressure something an older athlete should have a slight advantage at.
  54. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'Toronto Reader from Toronto, Canada writes: Oh, also want to mention. The rule about age makes no sense. To be good enough to complete in Olympics, one would be training very hard at a very young age.

    So what is the point of saying 16 is the right age and 14 is too young when they are training hard anyways at any given age (and coud possibly be injured during training)?'
    __________

    why do we have age limits for anything then? i was tall enough to drive a car when i was 12, but i wasnt allowed to do it because someone somewhere thought i should be 16.

    the IOC (made up of members from ALL countries, including china) are the ones that implemented this age rule. if the age rule makes no sense to some IOC members, they can lobby to have it changed back.
  55. Alfred Chan from Mississauga, Canada writes: If the chinese broke the rule, than they should forefit the medals. Although I think the eligability rule is stupid, and if the Americans finish with Gold and Silver, I doubt there will be any Investigation.
  56. Sufei Zhang from Vancouver, Canada writes:
    / Happy King from Canada writes: Sufei, you are not a Chinese. You are a SHABI! /

    Happy King, it's not up to you to decide whether I am a Chinese or not. I am a proud Chinese who loves facts and hates lies.

    BTW, my dear King, do not get mad, get even. Win me by decent argument. I'd like to be defeated by reason, by facts, by evidence and I am always happy and grateful when I am defeated that way, but I have never been and would never be defeated by bad mouth. I wish that you have learnt basic manners in public.
  57. J Kay from Canada writes: James C: The point with regard to age limits is that peoples excuses for why 16 is the age are specious. As toronto reader notes, to be competing at this level by the time someone is 16, means they have been training at a very high level likely since they were 10 years old or younger.

    Also as I noted, the IOC does not set the age rule, FIG does and FIG's reason for doing so, from what I have read had far more to do with trying to keep women in gymnastics than any concern for unfairness or competitive advantage of a younger athlete. Consider that diving has an age limit of 14 and yet older divers usually win, yet diving like gymnastics very much requires flexibility.
  58. matthew veenman from Winnipeg, Canada writes: While I support the claim that the Chinese government/2008 Olympic committee/whoever should be punished IF - that is IF - falsifications to documents regarding He's age have been made. I personally believe that even if she is 14 she still deserves the respect and recognition of an Olympic gold medalist - if any 14 year old or even 13 year old can compete at that level in any Olympic sport then I think they should be allowed. Yes in some cases young athletes may be pushed too hard ( and I am sure that this is already happening age limit or not ), but there may also be some benefits as well. Perhaps the elimination of an age limit will encourage more young people to strive towards these goals as opposed to talking on their cell phones and all those other things that teens and tweens do.

    And at the end of the day even I myself am ashamed of considering this topic - surely with climate change, the continued divide between East and West, poverty and the rest we have better things to be thinking about.
    Thank-you and congratulations He.
  59. Dan Shortt from Toronto, Canada writes: We can't just take the attitude that China may have bent the rules a bit, or it's sour grapes on the part of the U.S., or she's a sweet kid so let her keep her medals anyway.

    If He Kexin is under-age, the situation has to be addressed by the IOC. Something tells me they won't be digging into the matter too deeply, despite some fairly strong evidence that her ID documents may have been altered. Come on ... she was listed as being younger than she is now at previous gymnastic events.
  60. Happy King from Canada writes: Sufei, when you see the title has been changed, you become mad, don't you? Do you have any evidence to demonstrate IOC is wrong? How can you use your bad judgement to tell the young girl is below 16 or not from just her face? Once again, you are a SHABI!
  61. CM Chen from Toronto, Canada writes: evelyn robinson from Canada writes: Sounds like sour grapes complaining from the losers.

    ======

    If rules are made to be broken..

    If cheating trumps principles..

    If there is no right or wrong...

    Then we all become losers.
  62. Marc St-Aubin from Toronto, Canada writes: First, I truly wish people would read the entire Globe article before criticizing FIG's age rule. It's quite clear and reasonable why there is that 16-year-old requirement to compete at the Olympics. And so there is absolutely no debate there.

    Secondly, since the IOC says that despite the questions surrounding China's gymnasts, there is still no concrete evidence, it seems now the only question to answer in this story is:

    -- what on earth then is that online list showing He with the 01.01.94 date of birth?

    I hope someone will come forward and explain why THAT information is incorrect. But I don't think we will hear the bottom of it.
  63. Melba Toast from Canada writes: Never mind Tavares age, let him enter the NHL draft.......oh sorry, wrong thread.
  64. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'J Kay from Canada writes: James C: The point with regard to age limits is that peoples excuses for why 16 is the age are specious. As toronto reader notes, to be competing at this level by the time someone is 16, means they have been training at a very high level likely since they were 10 years old or younger.

    Also as I noted, the IOC does not set the age rule, FIG does'
    ___________

    fair enough. i would really like to hear from gymnasts what their opinion is on the subject. whether or not it makes any difference. they're the ones who really know.
  65. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'J Kay from Canada writes: James C: Also as I noted, the IOC does not set the age rule, FIG does and FIG's reason for doing so, from what I have read had far more to do with trying to keep women in gymnastics than any concern for unfairness or competitive advantage of a younger athlete. Consider that diving has an age limit of 14 and yet older divers usually win, yet diving like gymnastics very much requires flexibility.'
    __________

    i dont think you can compare the two sports. diving is a sport that requires a limited series of movements over a very short period of time while moving through the air, and starting from a static position. gymnasts clearly require much more flexibility to perform routines that make use of apparatus, take much longer to complete and put much greater stress on the body.
  66. Jake ---- from Canada writes: I don't know if most of you realize this, but this kids are yanked from there home at age 3 and are trained 10 hours a day. This is all these kids know, I wouldn't be surprised if they can't even read or write. It is pretty sad when your life is a sport.
  67. Raf O from Vancouver, Canada writes: 12. For sure.
    But what's the big deal? I think it would be worse to loose to a child.
  68. R Miller from Halifax, Canada writes: I think that it is more important that we remember the words of Franklin D. Roosevelt when he said:

    'Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are.'

    Oh wait...

    Dammit, that doesn't make any sense being posted here either...

    Ah well, it can join many of these other non-sensical posts about just throwing away all the rules whenever someone gets caught breaking them...

    Cheers
  69. Ron H from Toronto, Canada writes: 1) Chinese look a lot younger than their same-aged western counterparts. For example, look at a 40 year old chinese woman and a western; chinese age a lot better than westerners.

    2) China should forfeit their medals if the ruling is against them.

    3) The amercians are EXTREMELY biased and are sour-pusses. Look at NBC.com and their medal listings. Traditional, the top country is ranked by the number of GOLD medals and not by their medal count. Furthermore, i've been following the NBC coverage of the olympics and they're ALWAYS subtly bashing China. Notice how they always point out that the 'scoring' is problematic.

    4) Lastly, i think canadians are also turning into american puppets and view some of these issues too critically. Was it THAT bad that 1 minute of the fireworks were digital and not real? The fireworks were real and did go off but as officials pointed out, there was a challenge in filming the whole sequence. Lip-syncing? Oh man, i bet more than half of the american singers we so believe in lip-sync at their concerts.
  70. Sufei Zhang from Vancouver, Canada writes:
    Only God knows how many skeletons there are for the Olympics (of 2008 inparticular) orchestrated by a secretive Chinese governemnt and a more secretive IOC.
  71. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: 'Ron H from Toronto, Canada writes: 1) Chinese look a lot younger than their same-aged western counterparts. For example, look at a 40 year old chinese woman and a western; chinese age a lot better than westerners.'
    __________

    ron, what do you base this on? the source? not being facetious here, but provide the evidence you base this supposition on.
  72. Eat Your Weedies from Canada writes: It's a systemic child abuse system they got going anyway. 14 - 15 -16- whatever. Child abuse no matter how you want to slice that pie.
  73. Ron H from Toronto, Canada writes: Jake ---- from Canada writes: I don't know if most of you realize this, but this kids are yanked from there home at age 3 and are trained 10 hours a day. This is all these kids know, I wouldn't be surprised if they can't even read or write. It is pretty sad when your life is a sport.

    _________________________________________________________

    source? Something you just made up?

    The government isn't the devil as the western media portrays it. Has anyone ever realize how much the western media is covering up? Monsanto anyone??????
  74. J Kay from Canada writes: James C: While I don't disagree that gymnastics requires more strength than diving, I don't see how it involves more flexibility. To me the flexibility aspect comes down to holding flips and twists, especially in release elements on the high bars or through the tumbling passes on the floor. The flexibility being the ability to fold ones body into tight pikes but these same elements of gymnastics that require flexibility in gymnastics are nearly identical to those involved in diving.

    The other elements used in gymnastic are flipping over the bars (males gymnasts do this as well and complete higher difficulty routines and elements when they release and yet are older) and many of the pirouetting elements all of which require one to be elongated while doing so which doesn't have a flexibility element to it.
  75. Sufei Zhang from Vancouver, Canada writes: OMG, I have won my bet! The title has been changed to something I guess I would see weeks later!

    Cheers! my dear Happy King.
  76. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: J Kay from Canada, well in the end, the gymnastics federation, as you noted, were the ones that implemented the age rule. surely they know why they did it and the sound reasoning behind it. i cant see how anyone else is in a better position to make the determination how old or young a gymnast should be.
  77. Marc St-Aubin from Toronto, Canada writes: OLYMPIC RANKINGS...

    One gold medal does not equal one bronze does it? So why do we add up those medal counts? Coming in second or third, is that really different than coming 4th or 5th? So yes, gold medals matter -- way -- more.

    * Is it really an amazing feat that a nation with a population five times, 10 times, 100 times the size of another, and with double, triple, and 25 times the economy is on the top of the leader board?
    I would certainly so!

     But when a tiny nation can do more with less though, one might seriously be amazed at the accomplishment!

    Here's the hidden ranking...

    Jamaica 2,804,332people $20billion 5g 3s 1b
    Georgia 4,693,892 $12 3 0 3
    Cuba 11,423,952 $51 2 6 6
    Zimbabwe 12,671,860 $24 1 3 0
    Belarus 10,310,520 $62 2 3 8
    North Korea 23,479,089 $40 2 1 3
    New Zealand 4,173,460 $111 3 1 5
    Australia 19,913,144 $570 11 13 14
    Slovakia 5,455,407 $110 3 1 1
    Uzbekistan 28,268,440 $64 1 2 3

    China 1,330,044,605 $6,991 46 15 22

    Canada 33,212,696 $1,266 3 7 5

  78. J Kay from Canada writes: James C: yes they did. As I noted above what I have read is that FIG changed the rule to try to keep more women in gymnastics to a later age, not out of desire to keep a level playing field in the sport.

    The age rule use to be 14 and even FIG allowed exceptions; again as I noted Karen Kensall was able to compete for Canada at the age of 13 in 1976, when the then allowable age was set at 14, so clearly the rule wasn't hard and fast then.

    It also appears that FIG may have changed the rule to 16 out of concern for the health of young girls competing at an elite level, however this is certainly controversial among coaches and given that I doubt it makes a huge difference, girls at 14 had better be training at an elite level if they wish to compete at an elite level by the time they're 16 or they wont be competitive. So while there my have been some attempt to raise the age to encourage women to stay in gymnastics long and to avoid the early exploitation of young girls in gymnastics, I find zero evidence that it has anything to do with younger girls having a competitive advantage over older ones. Again a 33 year old silver medallist on vault seems to counter that quite nicely as does a 19 year old Nastia Luikin.
  79. Kat Wilson from Canada writes: Isn't it common knowledge that China cheats? I seem to recall this being an issue in every Olympics. Anything to win.
  80. Jake ---- from Canada writes: Ron H from Toronto, Canada writes:source? Something you just made up?

    The government isn't the devil as the western media portrays it. Has anyone ever realize how much the western media is covering up? Monsanto anyone??????

    Ok I can't source anything because the media in China is filtered and pumped full of pro chinesse propaganda. But I can tell you I saw TV program 4 or 5 years ago that filmed infant chinesse gymnasts and divers. Now as if you would think I would make this up, I have nothing against the people of china. The country of China is like the USSR was 20 years ago when it comes to there sports. These kids dont have the freedoms that you or i take for granted. They are told what to do and when to it.
  81. Ron H from Toronto, Canada writes: And.. the USA doesn't?
  82. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: to answer ron h's claim above that chinese (women he claimed) age better than their western counterparts, simply not true.

    chinese people often look younger in their teens and early 20s, but once they're past 30, they age like everyone else. spots on skin, wrinkles, out of shape, less than perfect eyesight etc. one major difference is you wont see a lot of obesity in china (not at this point in time) but thats rearing its head here in younger people now who are more used to a cushy lifestyle.

    as for chinese men, i might even argue they age faster than western men. many of them dont exercise, the vast majority of chinese men smoke, and many like to imbibe in the baijiu frequently.

    nothing scientific here, just based on my observations over time. and anyone is free to challenge what i've said here :-)
  83. Ron H from Toronto, Canada writes: Ok I can't source anything because the media in China is filtered and pumped full of pro chinesse propaganda. But I can tell you I saw TV program 4 or 5 years ago that filmed infant chinesse gymnasts and divers. Now as if you would think I would make this up, I have nothing against the people of china. The country of China is like the USSR was 20 years ago when it comes to there sports. These kids dont have the freedoms that you or i take for granted. They are told what to do and when to it.

    _______________________________________________________

    Monsanto?? So you're saying that the USA media is full of transparency. They're not propagandizing that the american way of life is the best such as looking like a model, driving the fastest cars, getting the most expensive brand names. Give me a break.

    Yes, the training they go through is harsh and tedious. But life in china is totally different from life in Canada. Many of these children come from poor rural areas and training to become an elite athlete is one of the ways to get of the cycle.
  84. Marcus T from Toronto, Canada writes: It is really disgusting to see so many people talking out of ignorance. Why don't we just wait for the IGF of IOC to do the investigation first. Remember, only fools talk before thinking!!!
  85. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: to add to my post at 2:05, there's a fair segment of older retired chinese people that are actually appear to be in better shape than many young people here. go to many city parks at 6am during the week and you'll see plenty of people doing some form of low impact exercise and about 95% of them are over 60. but these people dont look any younger than a 55-65 yo westerner, just a bit more active.
  86. Ron H from Toronto, Canada writes: James C.

    Google image Vicky Zhao and Ruby Lin.
  87. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: ok ron, i did. a couple of hot looking women. i can find women who look like that everywhere :-)

    but how does that support your claim above re: comparing how chinese and westerners age?
  88. Ron H from Toronto, Canada writes: ok ron, i did. a couple of hot looking women. i can find women who look like that everywhere :-)

    but how does that support your claim above re: comparing how chinese and westerners age?
    _________________________________________________________

    None, just wanted you to check out some hot asian chicks that are 30. =)
  89. James C from Shenzhen, China writes: thanks ron.... :-)
  90. Not Withstanding from Canada writes: The chinese govt are compulsive liars. That they are cheating is almost a certainty. It would be a bigger surprise if they were NOT cheating.

    Ultimately, though, who cares one way or another. The Olympics as a proxy for national power is pretty thin gruel.
  91. Ron H from Toronto, Canada writes: Well, if china cheated, then shame on them. But He is still the best gymnast on uneven bars.

    Rules are Rules. Chaos is bound to happen without them.

    What's sad is how the western media demonizes China. You don't see the media accusing Canada of suppression because of the separatists in Quebec.
  92. Ron H from Toronto, Canada writes: The chinese govt are compulsive liars. That they are cheating is almost a certainty. It would be a bigger surprise if they were NOT cheating.

    Ultimately, though, who cares one way or another. The Olympics as a proxy for national power is pretty thin gruel.
    ________________________________________________________

    Lemme have a quick tweak:

    The USA are compulsive dopers. That they are cheating is almost a certainty. It would be a bigger surprise if they were NOT cheating.

    Ultimately, though, who cares one way or another. The Olympics as a proxy for national power is pretty thin gruel.
  93. Rob L from Vancouver, Canada writes: Check out Tom Daley, the British diver, 14 years old. Funny nobody is raising a stink over that, poor losers. Michael phelps was 15 when he competed in Sydney. Oh poor Tom Daley and Michael Phelps, made to compete at a young age, they must be abused and had no childhood. Hypocrites!
  94. steven liu from vancouver, Canada writes: you know... in all honesty... this disgusts me. can't any one here talk without racial prejudice?

    Not Withstanding from Canada writes: The chinese govt are compulsive liars. That they are cheating is almost a certainty. It would be a bigger surprise if they were NOT cheating.

    this is amusing... do you have proof? furthermore, is this investigation well grounded? and under what basis? Is the sole reason that this investigation going on due to the small stature of the chinese competitors? or is it because china used some methods that western cultures didn't approve of, it automatically makes them cheaters?

    look here, I agree that the chinese government isn't great. but it's not like any of us has a higher ground. every government at some point committed atrocity of some sort. I suppose that since the americans are having a war in iraq it means we should all assume we may be spontaneously attacked under the reason of having WMD's?

    It's simply flabbergasting to me that everyone here speaks of the issue as if it's already confirmed that china cheated. the IOC hasn't even come up with a firm result despite the fact that they are professionals. so I'm guess you're all super geniuses who work as private olympic investigators so you're obviously right about China cheating and IOC is just pussying out right? I'm not saying that China definitely did NOT cheat, nor am i saying that china cheated. all I'm saying is... isn't it too early to be discussing whether or not a 14 year old girl's body is more flexible... or how the medal should be taken away.. or the constitutions of the rules and the reasons behind them? shouldn't the issue be whether or not china DID cheat?
  95. steven liu from vancouver, Canada writes: continued from previous post... thanks everyone, I sure as heck learned a lot of hypothesis relating to issues that are not RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC!

    here's a thought... instead of just condemning china or throwing evidence around of how a 14 year old's body is superior to a 16 year olds... CAN SOMEONE GIVE ME EVIDENCE OF WHETHER OR NOT CHINA CHEATED? I don't care if it's for or against. I just think that's the only thing that has ANYTHING to do with the article.
    • Posted 22/08/08 at 2:58 AM EST |