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Canada to finance Kandahar training centre

GLORIA GALLOWAY

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 2:21 PM EST 27/08/08

Military facility will be used to upgrade skills of junior officers in Afghan National Army, Mackay says during visit to Kandahar ...Read the full article

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  1. George Ruetters from Canada writes: How about giving the CANADIAN Department of Health enough money to do its job properly? I would like to see what the total Number of $$$ is which the present government has spent inside and outside the country in the last 3 years. From a healthy surplus to a healthy deficit in how many years? This is from a party which screamed for fiscal responsibility!
  2. Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: We are short of money for arctic icebreakers aren't we Mr MacKay? Where are your voters located?
  3. jack sprat from Canada writes: What?? Health care in canada should be a much higher priority. How about that wait times promise????

    This spending boggles the mind.

    Norm
  4. The NeoCynic from Cayman Islands writes: Yet another hilariously ludicrous diversionary feel-good piece of agitprop from the NATO Press Tent. Don't these stenogra-, I mean, "reporters" get tired of munching on NATO donuts and slurping Tim Horton's coffee? We get this crap rather than one crummy word about the recent murder of 90 Afghan civllians? Has nobody in our media any sense of priorities? Or, for God's sake, humanity?

    A sure sign that things are slowly turning into pure excrement for our mission in Afghanistan is the sheer absurdity of these PR stunts and the laughably fake and demonstrably false assertions of the stuffed shirts who make them. To wit: " nobody will be safe against these threats no matter what part of the planet they are situated" LOL! What hilarious tub-thumping for more money from we suckers.

    And all of this in the face of the greatest atrocity committed to date in this war by our airstrikes. Perhaps next time we kill over 100 children, McKay and his quisling government could organize a ribbon-cutting ceremoney for yet another torture training centre.

    LOL!
  5. K. Little from Canada writes: What the heck is the minister of finance doing on this trip? A quick junket before the election?

    Flaherty probably wanted to get a free flack jacket before he faces the past owners of income trusts.
  6. Jack L from Oakville, Canada writes: Another BS plan to support the BS reason to stay there. Get our troops home now.
  7. Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring Island, Canada writes: Let me get this straight, this is a training centre where Canadians are going to teach the Afghans how to fight?
  8. North of the Border from Canada writes: Government elected to represent the people. If I could ask the population which people are being represented here should I expect to hear dead silence? As quickly as we went from surplus for devastation so has my vote. I never vote conservative but for awhile I was thinking these guys were doing a good job. We do little to help out our own citizens and open the doors for immigrants and then we run a deficit while pouring money elsewhere? Did we let too many immigrants into Canada and now we're just multi-branch of other countries? This country is getting pathetic beyond words. The same time many of you complain aout equilization do you at the same time agree with throwing money endlessly outside of Canada with little return?
  9. Scott Gordon from BC, Canada writes: I damn near lost my breakfast over this one. These Cons are out of control. Dion or not, these guys must go!
  10. Lee Hiller from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Why don’t they upgrade clear drinking water facilities at home on many Canadian reserves before upgrading some Godforsaken military facility in Af-Drugistan?
  11. Anti Fascist from Canada writes:
    There you go folks, another stupid idea from the Harpo Cons, after we boot the idiots out in the next election, the incoming Fiberals will doubtless increase it's budget. Remember when the warhawks here were telling us lies about schools for girls? Now we see their real agenda.

    Vote for Jack Layton's crew in the next election. Bring the troops home, and let's re think NATO.

    Now that NATA has become just an extension of USA corporate interest, I think Canada should end it's involvement with it.
  12. P Jones from NB, Canada writes: Well, to all those who have a beef, think of it this way. Our goal is to leave A'stan in a position to provide its own security. You do want us out of there once and for all, right? This one time investment of $16 million will go towards that. If you want cash diverted to other programs, look at the government waste here at home. The amount being spent on this military facility is negligible considering we spend 60x that amount on something like the CBC ... annually.
  13. Just Visiting from Ottawa, Canada writes: So we will be teaching the Afghans to fight the insurgency while the Americans, I gather from the morning news, teach Canadians how to understand the Afghan insurgency?

    Right.

    I have an idea: how about the Afghans teach Canadians about what is making the insurgency grow, and Canadians can pass this on to the Americans, who could stop bombing civilians, since this is one of the main things that stokes the insurgency.

    - JV
  14. Byron Rottweiller from Canada writes: Note to Jeff T - ok, dude, here's your positive Aghanistan story on the main page of the online edition just a couple of days after you claimed that NOTHING ever gets printed by the lefty (commie pinko etc) media.

    You asked me to provide you with an example, here it is. So, with all due respect, sir, please shut your pie-hole, and while you're at it quit accusing Canadians of sedition for questioning the government.
  15. Byron Rottweiller from Canada writes: P Jones - comparing the CBC to an Afghan military training facility.....hmmm, can you say 'apples and oranges?'

    I see nothing wrong with the investment of 16 million to help the Afghanis become more independent. Who can argue seriously against that?

    Speaking of propaganda, Wardak, the defence minister, really overstated the mission 'we are engaged in a just cause, in a noble endeavour against an evil that is threatening the whole human civilization and nobody will be safe against these threats no matter what part of the planet they are situated,'. Give us a break. The Taliban are a threat to the whole human civilization? I don't think so.

    If he's referring to Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden, well, Osama is in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. Al Qaeda is all over the place, Europe, North America, Africa, Asia.

    Makes you wonder whether the billions of dollars poured into Pakistan's dictatorship (Musharraf) and the billions of (secret) dollars poured into the CIA's Islamic extremist training program in Aghanistan were wise choices. Remember that not too long ago Musharraf, Osama Bin Laden, Mullah Omar et al were our allies.

    Methinks the threat to 'the whole human civilization' comes in part from a source much closer than we commonly realize - US!
  16. J Lee from Canada writes: one word. WHY?????????????
  17. Marc S from Canada writes: what a complete idiot. What the hell is he doing over there anyways ???Not enough work on the home front ??? Can't wait for an election to be called!
  18. ANONY MOOSE from Timmins, writes: Once again our federal government has shown that it is completely out of touch with the Canadian taxpayers. 16 million dollars for a training facility that will teach people how to effectivley kill the enemy. I am sure that the majority of Canadian taxpayers will agree that this money could be put to better use. Lets say, for instance some non profit housing for the homeless or soup kitchens , or breakfasts for children, meals for the elderly, books for schools etc etc etc.
  19. Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: P Jones from NB, Canada writes:The amount being spent on this military facility is negligible considering we spend 60x that amount on something like the CBC ... annually."----

    If it was not for the CBC we would not know what is actually happening in the world. For some corporate types that would be a good thing.
  20. Byron Rottweiller from Canada writes: ANONY MOOSE - so you're arguing that we shouldn't participate in any NATO actions? Or that we shouldn't train forces in other countries? where do you draw the line then......

    Did you support the invasion of Afghanistan back in 2001? What kind of military actions do you support? Just curious.
  21. Michael Soft from Democratic People's Republic of Canada (aka North Canada), Canada writes: Kudos to our government for funding our athletes training facililties for preparation of the 2012 London Olympics!
  22. Byron Rottweiller from Canada writes: Still Learning at 78 - I think it's more accurate to say the CBC reinforces Canadian culture rather than informs us about the world outside Canada. That's the CBC mandate, and it's worked to tie this country together for 70 years.
  23. Wally Wally from Canada writes: P Jones from NB, Canada writes: Well, to all those who have a beef, think of it this way. Our goal is to leave A'stan in a position to provide its own security.

    It's a nice sentiment but my gut feeling tells me when the last of the coalition/nato troops leave, Afghanistan will degenerate into a free for all shooting gallery.
  24. Too young Too old from Canada writes: Don't worry about health care, the government is doing all it can to take the hands off approach it will not cost them any money soon enough as it becomes a private market.

  25. Henry Wojak from Thunder Bay, Canada writes: Get the Canadians out of Afghanistan and let the Taliban do the training!
  26. F.T. Ward from Canada writes: A better cost comparison is the $16 million for the school versus $12 million per Leopard. If the school is successful it will be one of the more cost effective things we've spent cash on in Afghanistan.
  27. Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: Seven years and we have to invest millions to provide more training. By the time these guys are trained it will be time for them to retire.

    These are the same guys who evicted the Soviet Union, who fought the Taliban and each other in ferocious battles that killed thousands over many years. Somehow now they can't figure out which end of the gun the bullet comes out of.

    How many of the students will be literate? Previous reports say few can read or write.

    What percentage of the $16 million will be ripped off by contractors and paid out in bribes? Will there be any oversight of how and where the money is spent? I bet the accounting will all be a military secret.

    The Taliban haven't spent years being trained and mentored and yet they seem to be coping just fine.
  28. Dan L from Canada writes: F.T. Ward wrote:

    "A better cost comparison is the $16 million for the school versus $12 million per Leopard. "

    I see F.T. is up to his usual twisting of facts, strange how he comes up with a figure of $12 million per tank when the total program cost is $650 million:

    "Canada is negotiating government-to-government agreements for both borrowing and acquiring the Leopard 2 tanks. The total project cost of the loaned tanks, the acquisition of 100 surplus tanks from the Netherlands, the requisite upgrades and enhancements to this new Leopard 2 fleet, and an initial acquisition of spare parts is $650 million, which will be funded from existing departmental allocations."

    http://www.dnd.ca/site/newsroom/viewnewse.asp?id=2252

    Therefore the total cost WITH UPGRADES AND SPARES works out to $6.5 million per tank. Way to go F.T., never let the truth get in the way of your agenda eh??
  29. ANONY MOOSE from Timmins, writes: do any of the readers here know how I can find out just how much taxpayers money goes out of the country. If we can fund programs in foriegn to teach people how to kill then why can't we fund programs in Canada to give people fresh clean drinking water ( Kashechawan ) or clean modern schools ( Attawapiskat ). How about using some of this money to help students repay student loans ( which by the way have a higher interest rate than the banks do today). Lets fund some medical students, lets give some tax breaks to seniors, low income earners.
    Lets take these millions of taxpayers dollars and use it to fund programs that will help Canadian People and when we have our own affairs in order THEN WE CAN HELP OTHER COUNTRIES IN NEED.
  30. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: " very difficult sledding " ? Is that really what our Defence Minister called the events of this summer in Afghanistan ? What does "difficult sledding" even mean ?
  31. Byron Rottweiller from Canada writes: hey dan, thx for the math. By your calculations the Leopard program would fund 40 training centres.
  32. ANONY MOOSE from Timmins, writes: To The Rottie: I am very proud of our soldiers in Afghanistan. They are over there fighting a war that is not their own. If they are fighting as a UN force then the UN should be the one to fund the training centre. Some of that money will come from Canada and some will come from the countries who annually fund the UN. Canada, by the way is one of very few countries who actually live up to their monetery obligations to the UN. Personally I do not agree with the war in Afghanistan but we have soldiers over there and I will support them and their cause( eventhough I feel it is not a just cause) as long as they are there.
  33. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: I wasn't going to say anything because other posters here have adequately expressed my sentiments on the topic.... there was one thing though and I thought I'd answer Byron's question although it was directed at MOOSE. A military is at its "best" when its on its home turf fighting for its survival against a clear and present danger. Even the Russian military managed to earn some nobility status doign this against the Germans at the gates of Moscow. A military is "good" when its simply in garrison on its home turf subject to the laws of the land and ready to defend it if its needed to. In a world with empires its necessary not to look like a pushover and for a justice based society a last resort if required. A military is "bad" when it is subject to laws at home but is used for Imperial conquest abroad. Or is being used as a mercenary force on behalf of someone else's empire. Aka Afghanistan. A military is at its "worst" when it attacks its own society. It becomes the law of the land and monopolises violence within a state directed at the people it was supposed to protect. At this level they make more sense when viewed as a powerful mafia. Burma comes to mind as an example. So when to use a military... that's an interesting question...
  34. ANONY MOOSE from Timmins, writes: My apologies to the readers please substitue Nato for UN in my last post. I get brain farts when I get going about this war.
  35. globefan Eh from Canada writes: Always money for war...rarely money to train doctors or for women's health or for teacher training..but what else could I expect from friends of the Defense and Security "industry".
  36. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: As usual - the comment by Wardak is either ignored or derided. People cannot see the real world that exists beyond the end of their noses. What is being fought in this war on terrorism is an ideology - one promoted by oil rich countries Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Warkak is correct this is a war which is impacting the world not just Afghanistan or Pakistan. BTW they may be able to fight but a properly trained military requires discipline and a committment to their country as a whole. In Afghanistan there have always been militia groups not a military committed to the interests and people of the country as a whole.
  37. Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: Thanks Byron Rottweiller from Canada --- you are absolutely right about the CBC it reflects Canadian culture which is necessary to hold the country together.
    I think radio canada gives excellent coverage of the middle east that the corporate media chooses not to cover probably because of powerful interests opposed to it.

    Thanks Byron
  38. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: So when to use a military - for a justice-based democratic society...

    Only as a last resort.

    Only after peaceful resolution and diplomatic options have failed.

    Only invoked using the democratic principles of society. A majority vote.

    Then the military is used judiciously with clear rules of engagement that a justice based society would insist on.

    Its goal should be the restoration of justice and democracy. And then it should withdraw.

    Afghanistan and Canada's commitment to it have failed these thresholds....

    http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Asia-Pacific/Afghanistan
  39. The Phantom from Canada writes:
    ANONY MOOSE

    I find your position fascinating. You say you support a cause that you acknowledge is "not just"?

    I am not trying to have a go at you, but it seems to me that by your logic here you would support any war Canada is involved in (no matter how unjustified) simply by way of circular reasoning.
  40. Toxic Planet from dead zone USA, Canada writes:
    "Military facility will be used to upgrade skills of junior officers in Afghan National Army"

    I call "Bluff" this facility will be used to help train men to kill more people in afghanistan, now and in the future. same as it ever was.
  41. Roln Thunder from Fredericton, Canada writes: Once again many people are missing or more likely ignoring the point why these training facilities are required. Do we want the Afghani military to be modern professional army or an ineffective rag tag bunch of armed militia? The skill development and knowledge required to be a professional soldier today would be similar to that required to earn a journeyman ticket in most of the trades. You don't become an electrician, plumber, or carpenter over night by picking up a wire strippers, pipe wrench or a hammer. There are months of formal courses, examinations and thousands of hours of on the job training before you earn your certification. The CF has a dozen or more "schools” where soldiers will spend weeks, months, if not years, at each rank level, learning and perfecting their trade. This training facility is another step towards creating the necessary infrastructure where the Afghani's can train their own senior NCOs and officer in a formal learning environment. If anything, those who believe that Canada should leave Afghanistan, should support this whole heartedly as it is the only through training the Afghani military will the need for Canadian troops lessen. Another thing to keep in mind. It takes 6-10 years to develop well rounded sergeants in the CF. 10-15 years for Warrant Officers. So given we have been training Afghanis for 6 years, we should just start seeing the emergence of Afghani senior NCOs which will form the "backbone" of the Afghani Army, just as NCOs form the backbone of ours. So to carry on the analogy lets build a " trades college" (Combat Training Centre) to train carpenters, plumbers, and electricians, with a view in the future they will need a "university" (Command and Staff College) to create architects civil engineers, community planners, and the MBAs required. A Staff College where senior Captain, Majors, Colonels and Generals will be groomed. You don't create doctors, lawyers or master massons overnight, so to soldiers.
  42. Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: Meanwhile, in Karachi on Sunday a truck carrrying containers bound for Afghanistan was attacked by 25 armed men and set on fire. This destroyed the two Armoured Personnel Carriers in the containers. That's only one container of 530 in the shipment, but the Taliban have said that they are going to make cutting Nato supply lines a priority. Various top Taliban leaders are in Karachi working on this, including Mullah Omar's deputy Mullah Bradar. The supply lines are the Achilles heel of the coalition.

    For those interested, there's more detailed information in the article, "Setback for Pakistan's terror drive" Asia Times,
    http://tinyurl.com/6aplgw
  43. Alain IMHO from Canada writes: $18 million. How much of that will actually reach it's end goal after every level of goverment takes their cut. Nothing smells quite so nice as the interior of a nice new shiny Benz.

    Roln, your info makes sense, I guess the question is will any effort ever lead to success when even Alexander the Great couldn't do anything with that region? Don't know but I'm not optomistic that we can change their culture, and make no mistake, that's exactly the only way we'll see success is if we change their culture (to suit our way of life of course).

  44. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: It depends how you define "success" Alain.

    The view that I expressed is completely at odds with our former Liberal government or the current Conservative one.

    I was hoping to provoke some discussion about the nature of our society and imperialism... no one is taking the bait...

    Incidentally, the problem isn't "their" culture... its ours.
  45. Stude Ham from Outremont, Canada writes:
    so how will the prgress of that mckay venture be monitored?

    ha... ha... ha.... ha... hardiharhar....

    more money down the a'stan cesspool... quick flaherty... announce more cuts to the arts and more cuts to the health monies... quick CMA... more loud noises about the glories of the private health care systems...

    CANADA - GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN NOW!
  46. sherry smith from Canada writes: Yes, I agree with Bryon Rottweiller and others along his line of thinking.
    The CIA and other covert groups are constantly meddling and causing coups, take overs, torture, and other malevolent activity all over the world in many countries causing an unstable and untrustful environment for all.
    I agree with Paul Martin that a new group of Countries should be formed with more representation and fairness from all Countries.
    This attitude of Bush on non negotiating with divisive groups who call BS on the puppet governments treating their people badly and not helping with poverty and health care is a disgusting bit of "convenience" to allow them to continue their self seeking greedy corporate desires around the world. Like our musician poet Leonard Cohen wrote in his song "Everybody Knows".
    We need a government in Canada to represent the majority of people not just a few right wing war lovers. Bad mission, bad for Canada. End of story. Let the games begin.
  47. mech eng from calgary, Canada writes: This is exactly the sort of thing Canada should be doing in Afghanistan. Hence, all the lefties whine about it.

    I recall back when the debate was raging about extension, all the lefties whining that we should just be training the Afghans to take care of themselves, and focusing on reconstruction and aid. Now training is bowing down to Bush I guess.

    Face it lefties. You won't be happy until the Taliban has complete control of that country, right?
  48. Roln Thunder from Fredericton, Canada writes: Alain, what kills me is the same basic arguements many are using why we shouldn't be in Afghanistan, I could use to not support the canadian welfare system, regional transfer payments, medicare and a host of other "Canadian Values". They are all of little "benifit" to me but cost me dearly in taxes. Its just a matter of perspective (Micro vs Macro) and where you draw the arbitary line of individual responsibility, at yourself, your family, your province, your nation, your world. Do we as Canadians who have been blessed by circumstance, have a moral obligation to assist those in need? I would say yes. Be it at helping out my own brother, a homeless shelter down town, NFLD (though they will soon be a have province, so perhaps Ont would be a better example) or help the people of Afghanistan reach for their fullest potential. For those who say Afghanistan is to costly and unlikely to have any affect anyways, I say right on brother, using the same arguements lets cut 90% of the federal and provincial programs because they are very costly and each program doesn't affect very may individual Canadians. But being Canadian we like to have our cake and eat it to, while the whole time bitching that the US go a bigger slice than we did
  49. UCant Haveitall from Canada writes: Well said Roln Thunder (shot over, shot out)
  50. Still Learning at 78 from Canada writes: Why support the US to get control of the pipelines. We do not need the oil, we have enough for our use. Why help other people increase their supply when we have our own supply. Get out of Afghanistan now.
  51. Alain IMHO from Canada writes: Roln, do you truly believe that there can be peace in that region of the world? I don't and no one will be able to convince me otherwise. I reinterate that the problem is cultural and until we can brainwash the majority of the population that our way is better, there will never be my definition of success. Every religiously based society is maintained by "brainwashing" the young and I'm not sure the Afghanies are telling their kids how much better their world we be doing things our way.

    As far as our own social programs, I pay enough taxes every year to feed a second family, I have never needed to draw e.i. (funny, I was always able to find some kind of employment) and don't get me going on cpp. Having said that, I don't cry foul because I do believe that they are good programs under certain circumstances.

    As far as helping out other countries, just out of curiosity, how much money did China (just as an example) pledge when we had our ice storm a few years back?

    IMHO
  52. evelyn robinson from Canada writes: NO MONEY FOR COAST GUARD SHIPS
    But we can blow more money in Afghanistan.
    Protect Canada FIRST then help others AFTER
  53. The Phantom from Canada writes:
    evelyn robinson

    I would agree with you, but for the erroneous implication that we are in Afghanistan to help anyone other than ourselves by our loyal servitude to the whims of our powerful neighbors.
  54. Phillip W. from Canada writes: Roln Thunder, your comment bears repeating.

    Rebuilding a nation from a medieval state, plus associated legislative (ie. politicians and government), executive (police and armed services), and judicial governance (the courts) will not happen in a week, year or decade. Either as Canadians we stand behind our values, and engage wholeheartedly in the commitment we have made, whether we agree it is the right place to be or not, or we pull the blanket over our heads and pretend the we live in isolation.

    Being in Afghanistan or not is a moot point; the decision has been made. We are in Afghanistan and no end of ranting on these forums will change that, so let us educate ourselves on what it will take to be in a position to eventually handover responsibility to the Afghani peoples themselves.
  55. Richard Hawrelak from Sarnia, Canada writes: AFAIC, not one penny would be spent in Afghan. Bring the troops home, now. Money down the sewer. Call the election Harpo. What are you waiting for? A jump in the polls? Here is my vote now ... PC incompetents ...no, liberal thieves ...no. Bring on the Rhino Party.
  56. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: Being in Afghanistan or not is a moot point...

    I totally disagree.

    How we got into Afghanistan is the single best example going of everything that's wrong with our political system. The British Parliamentary model is screaming for reform and it comes with a huge democracy deficit.

    Its hardly moot from the point of view that when I finally get a chance to vote on it anyone who is in favour of this ain't getting my vote!

    Getting out is as easy as getting in. You leave.
  57. The Phantom from Canada writes: Phil and Roln

    It all sounds very well intended and hifalutin, but it bears no resemblance to reality. there is no evidence to suggest that any of these lofty goals had anything to do with our reasons for going into Afghanistan and even less to do with why we would stay. On top of the fact that these are only the thin veil of a false premise for our imperialist motives, there is no indication that any of these honorable ideals are being accomplished. There is every reason to believe that it is a battle that cannot be won by pursuing the current strategy of counterinsurgency warfare, if by winning we mean the strengthening of human rights and democratic freedoms. We may indeed win some pyrrhic military victory and someday crush the insurgency in the region, but it will be at a cost so great that the people of Afghanistan will likely never recover.
  58. Phillip W. from Canada writes: Dear Robin and Phantom,

    The critics said exactly the same thing you echo about our involvement in the Balkans in the early 90s. It's not perfect, but I would say that 18 years on, Croatia and Bosnia are much nicer and safer places to visit than the last time I was there. I would argue, based not on non-high-falutin' ideology, but actual boots-on-ground experience, that Afghanistan deserves a chance. After all, it wasn't too long ago that many criticized the West for not doing anything about women's rights and stadium executions. Reversing our stand now is somewhat hypocritical.

    Sure, Sudan, and a dozen other places also deserve our attention, but the simple fact of the matter is that we do not have the resources to be everywhere at once. And even if we ask our military to pull-out of there and go to the next bandwagon du jour that all the media and critics of Afghanistan want us to go to, I guarantee you that six months later, the same criticisms will re-emerge.

    The world, and our government (Liberal or Conservative) is not perfect. But, making the world a better place, as Confucius might say is like a journey of a thousand miles - it happens one step at a time.

    I agree, as do those in uniform whom I know, that a military solution is not the answer. But like your neighbourhood, it sure is easier to go to work and have a job in the morning when you don't have to worry about being dragged out of bed at 3 AM and having an "infidel letter" nailed to your decapitated skull by a group of 'murderers and scumbags' - all thanks to your local police - the military is there doing the same job in a tough district. Without security, there never can be development, let alone diplomacy between more moderate insurgents and the Afghani peoples represented by their government.
  59. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: For those who do not want to acknowledge what is taking place in the real world here is a little example of how the war against democracy and human rights is being fought outside the view of the average citizen. The Human Rights Council at the United Nations earlier this year banned any criticism regarding Sharia Law and human rights in the Islamic World.

    Following the efforts of delegates from Egypt, Pakistan and Iran, the Council will no longer tolerate criticism of either Sharia or specific fatwas in the name of human rights. In many parts of the Islamic world, it is becomingly increasing clear that the Koran and the Hadith are considered sacrosanct in their perfection, as well as Sharia Law. The Islamic God has forbidden outside criticism of the Sharia Law and the UN Human Rights Council is appointed his messenger on earth. Such practices as the stoning to death of women, beheading of men and forced marriages cannot be criticized. However Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism and all other religions are imperfect, they are fair game for any and all attacks. Since Israel, Zionism, America and the Western World were created and developed outside the Islamic World and its divine perfection, they are likewise subject to criticism.
  60. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: $16 million for a "Staff and Language Training Centre", which will be used to upgrade the skills of junior officers in the Afghan National Army. Nice!

    Now turn your gaze to Mirwais Hospital in Kandahar City. Mirwais Hospital is a crumbling, filthy building with little equipment, no pharmacy, and 450 rusting beds serving about 3 million people in Kandahar. It's "morgue" is a shipping container. It's the only public hospital in Kandahar. You can find out just how bad it is and how little Canada has done for it in the detailed Senlis Council report at:

    http://www.senliscouncil.net/modules/publications

    Staff and Language Center for junior ANA officers: $16 million.
    Mirwais Hospital in Kandahar: $0 million.

    After three years making war in Kandahar, don't you think Canada should rejig its priorities just a little?
  61. The Phantom from Canada writes:
    Catherine

    Do you know any Muslims? Do know anyone who isn't a self declared Christian?
  62. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: Alain, if you don't believe there can be peace anywhere in the world I'd suggest you look around Canada a bit. It ain't perfect but it isn't open warfare!

    Your view, which is actually very pessimistic and old has been debated for some time. Its one of those nature of man debates. Some thinkers, like Hobbes holds that its our nature to be at war with each other. Personally I believe the opposite. I think its human nature to be gregarious and social. We manage conflict very well in our societies and overall we mostly get along.

    I think your fixation on Afghanistan isn't helping you think through the problem. Look at another situation like Viet Nam... would you argue that their resistance to the Japanese, French , Americans and Chinese was due to their cultural ambiguities and education system? Or just maybe because they were geographically at a cross roads to empires they found themselves to be victims of them and chose a long reistance...

    Our presence in Afghanistan tells us more about our society than it does the Afghani society. Most of us are against our involvement and yet we're there... now why is that?
  63. Robin Adams from Ottawa, Canada writes: Phillip,

    You've dusted off and repackaged a very old argument. Your not as eloquent as Kipling but your still making the "white man's burden" argument.

    A flight of fancy but lets say for argument's sake that we could be "everywhere all at once". Lets say we had unlimited resources... who would you kill and why? The fact that you would even try to make the argument shows that you do not believe in the principles of a justice and democratically based society. Your argument for militarism and imperial policy amounts to that we should "just because" we can... The fact that I'm part of your society and need to be convinced of the merits of your position comes as something of an afterthought to you.

    You seem to have raised the legitimacy of the use of force way above what most in a democratic society would deem acceptable. You also rather cavalierly denigrate other policy options as not doing anything... Well the range of policy options that come before invasion and occupation is actually a list of things that is by far the norm of our relations with most countries. Using your logic, Brian Mulroney condemming South African apartheid was the wrong policy choice. We should have invaded instead...
  64. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: The Phantom - yes I do know Muslims - who believe our troops should stay in Afghanistan and that they are helping. They are not part of the global jihad against democracy. It is mostly the non-Muslims that don't seem to get it. Many Christians see all Muslims as the same as those waging the jihad against the West. It is much easier to lump everyone in together - just as it is easier to see the people of Afghanistan as medieval tribal and not recognize that they do not want the Salafists to be in control of their country. What people don't realize is that Afghan women are serving in the ANA of today - they are being trained at all levels now although they were only officers and senior NCOs initially.
  65. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Robin Adams - your view is also narrow. Afghanistan and even Al'Qaida are only the tip of the iceberg. The oil rich ME countries have been waging an ideological jihad against Western democracies long before 9/11 or the war in Afghanistan. While they work to contain Al'Qaida within Saudi Arabia, the Saudis continue to fund terrorist activities throughout the world. They hate democracy, human rights and individual freedoms and have been using their vast oil profits(along with Qatar and Iran-which has its own Khumeinists agenda) to spread their Wahhabi ideology globally. In addition to funding mosques and madrassas, they have invested a great deal in Western universities to impact how subjects such as Islam, middle eastern studies etc are taught so that we will not be able to recognize the threat they pose - and they have been very successful at getting us to blame ourselves for all the problems in the Muslim world and the threat of terrorists. Check out Lebanese born Walid Phares who has written extensively on the subject.
  66. The Phantom from Canada writes:
    Catherine
    fair enough, but your posts are dripping with anti Muslim sentiments. It would be very difficult for a reader to discern the distinction you claim to make. You never refer to the war on terror as one being waged by Christian fundamentalist zealots when there is at least as strong an argument for describing it this way as there is for describing the resistance to American imperialism as fundamentally Islamic in nature.

    I am no fan of any kind of religion, fundamentalist or not, but it seems to me that if you do not intend your comments to sound anti Islamic and indeed racist, then at the very least you are not taking enough care to ensure people do not read them as such.
  67. Jack Robertson from Toronto, Canada writes: This is just more money being flushed down the pishadu. The people of Afghanistan are not worth the waste of our tax dollars and certainly are not worth the needless sacrifice of young Canadian lives. Trying to 'Afghanize' this conflict is as big a waste of money as the U.S. attempt to 'Vietnamize' another stupid, unprovoked and losing war that ended in defeat and the sacrifice of over 58, 000 young American lives. We should stop trying to save the rest of the world from itself and use the money that it consumes where it is needed - at home. We cannot change a country like Afghanistan or a culture that is rooted in Seventh-Century religious-based ignorance. The people of Afghanistan will never accept any of what the Canada has to offer except perhaps our lovely passports of convenience, our social services and our health care. It is time to cut them loose and snap shut the foreign aid purse.
  68. Yvonne Wackernagel from Woodville, Canada writes: HOW ABOUT SPENDING SOME MORE MONEY ON OUR OWN CANADIAN BADLY INJURED SOLDIERS?
  69. Phillip W. from Canada writes:
    Yvonne,

    I suggest you check-out the new Veteran's Charter, along with http://www.dnd.ca/centre/engraph/home_e.asp

    I think you will be pleasantly surprised to find out just how well-protected injured members and their families really are.
  70. Kevin Desmoulin from Canada writes: WE got a new province, Afghanistan.
  71. The Phantom from Canada writes:
    Yes Jack the Vietnam war was unprovoked, but before we bemoan the tragic loss of 60,000 American lives, most of whom did not volunteer for the mission, we should remember that approximately two million Vietnamese lost their lives in a war they did not provoke.

    The ratio has now improved in that far more Afghans or Iraqis will die for every US/NATO death.
  72. David Bakody from Dartmouth, Canada writes: For those who continue to back Harper's insde contracts in Afghanistan; From the NYT

    By CARLOTTA GALL
    Published: August 26, 2008
    KABUL, Afghanistan — A United Nations human rights team has found “convincing evidence” that some 90 civilians — among them 60 children — were killed in air strikes on a village in western Afghanistan on Thursday night, a statement issued by the United Nations mission in Kabul said, making it almost certainly the deadliest case of civilian casualties caused by any United States military operation in Afghanistan since 2001.
  73. Bill G from Calgary, Canada writes: Another excellent move by this government to address long term issues in Afghanistan. It a U.N. issue and we're in there helping.
  74. Phillip W. from Canada writes: Dear Robin and Phantom,

    Sadly my reply to you in the spirit of intelligent debate is not being allowed through. I will try to re-post it later when my content is deemed more acceptable.

    Phillip.
  75. Phillip W. from Canada writes: Robin and Phantom,

    To clarify, I do not argue for militarism or imperialism.

    I simply know, from real-world experience, that peace and good governance do not arise simply from wishful thinking or kumbaya moments between diplomats. Yes, there are a spectrum of options that range from group hug discussion to an allo-out state of war in most any situation between peoples and nations; the challenge is to strike the balance between when intervention is necessary and morally demanded, versus frivolous and selfish (ie. militarism or imperialism).

    Rather than argue between the two states, I prefer the following wisdom: "The only thing necessar for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". --Edmund Burke

    Stated another way, do nothing your mother wouldn't be proud of reading about you on the front page of the newspaper.

    Regards.
  76. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: The Phantom - this war is not about 'American imperialism' Please do yourself a favour and check out Lebanese born Walid Phares who was warning Western societies - including Europe - about the threat of the ideological jihad being waged long before 9/11 and the conflict in Afghanistan. This is a situation where an ideological jihad is being waged against democracy, human rights and individual freedoms by Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Iran(with their own agenda). This is not about the average Muslim who does not enjoy many of these things within the Muslim world. After the six day war the Arab countries chose terrorism as a weapon because they were unsuccessful using conventional warfare. They blamed the West for supporting Israel - they also blame the West for 'allowing' the revolution in Iran. They have traded land for peace but without any benefit for the palestinians. They have vast resources but have used none of them to aid the palestinians - or any other Muslims suffering in world. They have contributed zilch to help Afghanistan. They see democracy, human rights and individual freedoms as the 'root of all evil'. They have used their oil as a weapon to control democratic countries. Who owns the oil, makes the money, sets the prices(OPEC).
  77. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Jack Robertson 'We cannot change a country like Afghanistan or a culture that is rooted in Seventh-Century religious-based ignorance.' Actually, Afghan culture was not rooted in 7th century. The Taliban who were mostly madrassa students had little knowledge of Afghan history or culture and destroyed the culture when they banned everything that was part of Afghan society. They imposed their radical ideology on Afghan by force. They banned music, singing, dancing, kite flying, etc. while closing schools, hospitals and burning libraries. There were women professional in Afghanistan prior to the Taliban. And today there are women in the ANA - intially only as officers and NCOs but now at all levels including frontline troops. This has not been imposed on them - this is their choice. They want their children to go to school and their women to be able to work. BTW Many of our troops have volunteered to return to Afghanistan for second and third tours - at the risk of their lives - clearly they believe that the people of Afghanistan are worth it.
  78. The Phantom from Canada writes:
    Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: "this war is not about 'American imperialism'"

    You see Catherine this is the fatal flaw in your otherwise thoughtful analysis. I admit I find it difficult to understand how someone can be simultaneously intelligent enough to post as you do while indulging a delusion about global politics that borders on insanity. The most fundamental truth about "The war on Terror" is that it is imperialistic in nature, to fail to grasp this elementary truth is to render oneself conceptually impaired. So long as you cannot understand that all American (and Canadian for that matter) military interventions are imperialist you will be unable to comprehend the roots of these conflicts.
  79. Richard Thompson from Winnipeg, Canada writes: There were 90 civilians killed this weekend by the so-called NATO "good guys", and this week we read that Hamid Karzai pardoned four gang-rapists who have political ties to his government that our military and our government supports. How far Canada has fallen!

    Not only should Canadian troops leave Afghanistan, but our own officials who support the war should be charged with some sort of crimes such as abetting corruption or being accomplices to murder.

    Canadians have to be shown that if our own politicians and military leaders knowingly support NATO's carnage and fund the corruption of Afghanistan's government that they will be held accountable for what they have done.
  80. Bill G from Calgary, Canada writes: Richard Thompson, that claim was never proven. Having said that in war there will be civilian casualties. That does not invalidate the reasons we are there or the sacrifices our troops are making and have made. You want nirvana on earth? Try you next life.
  81. Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada writes: Bill G from Calgary, Canada writes: Richard Thompson, that claim was never proven. Having said that in war there will be civilian casualties. That does not invalidate the reasons we are there or the sacrifices our troops are making and have made.

    What claim? That there were 90 civilians killed? What would you accept as proof? The UN rep on the ground said so. What proof has the US provided to their claimt hat they killed 90 terrorists?
    Don't you see the bias in a position that accepts civilian casualties by the dozen as simply something that happens in war, but when a soldier dies, that's a sacrifice?
    What kind of a society are we become to accept the death of civilians in a war in which we participate as collateral damage, but the death of those we sent there to do the killing as a tragedy?
  82. Richard Thompson from Winnipeg, Canada writes: The pardon bore the president's signature. And do all of the innocent deaths week in and week out invalidate the reasons for being there? Of course, they certainly do. It makes us no better than the people we claim to oppose.
  83. Bill G from Calgary, Canada writes: Andre, there were differing reports depending on the source (Nato, Afghan Military, Afghan Government, Taliban, U.N.). I don't think it was conclusively proven. If believing the U.N. fills your boots, go for it.
  84. Richard Thompson from Winnipeg, Canada writes: And no Bill, I don't expect Nirvana. I just don't want our Canadian flag soiled with the blood of innocents in your vain search for nationalist glory on the battlefields of Afghanistan.

    You want to help people around the world? Here's a suggestion. It's a medical principle actually: First, Do No Harm!
  85. The NeoCynic from Cayman Islands writes: The Phantom from Canada;

    Re: Cathy Medernech

    "how someone can be simultaneously intelligent enough to post as you do"

    This poseur is a plagiarist who often cuts and pastes without attribution from a host of pro-war sites ranging from the NATO website to a host of far right pro-war blogs. It is rare occaission when something original emanates from this thief.

    I am sure we would all seem somewhat intellgent if we cut and pasted from the likes of Chomsky or the like.

    This poster is as fake as the war itself.
  86. Richard Thompson from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Andre, evidence doesn't matter to people like Catherine and Bill. Sadly, people like this would only change their tune on the horrors of civilian casualties if they were locked in a room with a grief-stricken mother who had just lost her children in some horrible NATO bombings.

    Maybe after trying to talk to her about NATO's "rules-of-engagement" (a set of guidelines for murder) or about how the deaths were actually the Taliban's fault (even though the missile shrapnel had "made in USA" written on it) they would realize how sociopathic they sound.
  87. Steven Ferguson from Canada writes: Since in the long run it is the Afghan army that is going to win or lose the current war, it makes sense that they need decent training, among other things (like decent equipment, decent pay, and decent leadership). If this new training centre will help, then we should go for it. As for the "War on Terror", there is no such thing. A war happens between the military forces of two groups. There is no more a "war" on terror than there is a "war" on drugs or a "war" on poverty. It is fundamentally a mis-use of the word, which leads to wildly inaccurate thinking. The Taliban is not fighting a war of terror, it is a basic insurgency, restricted to southern Afghanistan and neighbouring areas of Pakistan. There have been many similar insurgencies around the world over the past 150 years. Some succeed and some fail. Al'Qaida on the other hand does not have a military and therefore is incapable of fighting a war. They are more like the Red Army Faction from the 1970's, and can best be dealt with through good policing. The overall Muslim anger at the West is driven by a correct perception that they have been left behind in spite of their oil wealth, by idiotic moves like the invasion of Iraq, and by the West's support of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. The best course of action is to encourage good government in Muslim countries, to wind down the occupation of Iraq, and to end support for the Israeli occupation and killing in Palestine.
  88. P Jones from NB, Canada writes: Byron Rottweiller from Canada writes: Still Learning at 78 - I think it's more accurate to say the CBC reinforces Canadian culture rather than informs us about the world outside Canada. That's the CBC mandate, and it's worked to tie this country together for 70 years.
    _________________

    Off the topic here, but what a crock. The CBC does no such thing. It is a complete waste of taxpayers money ... period. You obviously can't see this so I won't waste any more of my time.
  89. The Phantom from Canada writes:
    Taliban Steven Ferguson

    Why don't you move to China then you Taliban lov