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Heritage department takes aim at religious radicals

COLIN FREEZE

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 5:46 AM EST 01/09/08

Multiculturalism plan under scrutiny as officials say country has moved beyond the 'mosaic' model of the 1970s ...Read the full article

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  1. Westcoast Dino from Canada writes: This is finally about time ......... freedom of religion should also mean free from fear of jiiad from our imported neighbours ...... we open our doors to the world and we invite in the chance of infil-tratitors .... that would rather see us, throats slit, bowing to Mecca or Mafia Moscow ......... how do we weed them out ....... all immigrants sign a declaration that with any entry they utter not any radical declarations, join any Mafia gangs and promise to uphold all Canadian Laws, failure to comply means immediate return of them and all their families to their homelands irregardless if they will be killed or tortured by their home countries. If they want to be in Canada they must uphold our Canadian Values, period.
  2. Kublah Khan from Canada writes: Our immigration policy can assist in the solution of this problem. Canada is not an Islamic state and one has to question why we rely so heavily on Muslim immigrants. One immediate improvement would be the elimination of the the broad 'family class' immigration policy. If we need a person because of his/her skills, do we also need his parents, grandparents, cousins, etc??? Time to shut this 'vote gathering' policy down, and develop a policy that is in Canada's best interests not in the interests of politicians.
  3. Vern McPherson from writes:
    'irregardless' is not a word - but arguably the grossest reduncancy in the language .......
  4. Brendan Caron from vancouver, Canada writes: It will be nice to help the radicals of the different religions to get it together before they find themselves looking down the wrong end of the barrel of a gun. It will be interesting as to how they will distribute the funds and which religions are entitled to them for... ? Ho-hum?
  5. Jim Goodwin from Canada writes: The second biggest terrorist event in North America was committed by a right wing Christian fundamentalist. I hope somebody is watching them as well. Any fundamentalist group should be watched, regardless of the type of religion it is.
  6. jonathan briet from München, Canada writes: Westcoast Dino, I think I get what you are trying to say here. However, you should try and use real (actual) words to explain your point. For example, irregardless, is in fact not a word. Although it is commonly used. While most people understand what you were getting at, a signed declaration would be an interesting idea, it becomes of a problem of interpretation. You see, if someone writes a law, a declaration or a comment and does not think through the passage before they submit it to the world, it can leave it open to multiple interpretations. This is a significant problem when people stick to actual words, can you imagine what would happen if our laws, declarations and on-line comments were written in such a slipshod manner?
  7. Buddy . from Away, Canada writes: Perhaps the first thing that should be done is to ban double speak and bureaucratese (SP?) when discussing these matters.

    Quote: 'that requires, in part, a battle against youth extremism.'

    --- 'youth extremism'? What is that?

    Yet the article goes on to say: 'The presentation notes that Australia, the United Kingdom, France and the Netherlands have all been taking steps to integrate immigrants and combat religious extremism.'

    --- ah it's not really 'youth extremism' is it?

    It's really 'religious extremism'

    But which 'religion'?

    And what kind of 'extremism'?

    Anyone who has been following this issue knows what they are trying to say with all of this double speak, don't they?

    But how can you fight something you are afraid to name?

    How about some plain speak?:

    'The federal culture department wants to fight Jihad and the Islamification of the Canada'
  8. Orest Zarowsky from Toronto, Canada writes: The first thing to be done is to ban all those private schools and make everyone attend public schools with a mixed population. That would expose all those different sub-groups to the fact that they are no different, or better than, anybody else. It would also help them learn to get along. As opposed to the current situation where all these 'communities' are isolating themselves.
  9. Westcoast Dino from Canada writes: irregardless of what you think ....... shouldn't the Kadhrs be sent packing back to their homeland? None of them want to be here and abide by our Canadian rules so sent them back to from whence they came. And all of them Russian mob folks getting in indenturing sex workers, round up the bosses and girls and send them home. If they break our laws within a 10 year period send em home.
  10. Westcoast Dino from Canada writes: right on ........ mix em in
  11. jonathan briet from München, Canada writes: WCDino, I see that the attempts raise your awareness of the problems associated with language have not worked. So, I am here to help. If your second point was vague, the second point was much clearer but still leaves us with an interpretation problem. Consider the following, your first post was to get rid of people because of tratitors (I can only assume this is slang for some sort of Italian sidewalk cleaner?). Then you use a non-existent double negative to say that they should stay. On to the second post, here you get a bit more specific about your point contracted sex workers and the Khadrs. To begin, I am pretty sure that the sex workers have not signed a contract. There may be some sort of verbal contract similar to the 'you leave our organization and we kill you and your family back home'. However, I am not sure how this would be interpreted (there is that nasty word again) by the courts.

    WCDino, why don't you just say exactly what is on your mind. I believe I am Paraphrasing here, 'I want those people out'. At least that feels like the gist of it. The problem here is once again, you guessed it, interpretation. Which those are you speaking of , these those, or those those, or even worse them!

    I guess what I am trying to say here, interpretation is not an easy at the best of times and subtle things like nuances make it even more difficult. While the actions of people like the Kahdrs is deplorable and makes me sick, and the idea of requiring people to follow the laws during some sort of citizenship probation does make sense, you cannot use broad strokes to eliminate problems. This requires an obvious and well defined purpose and exact wording, using real words and not those that are meaningless.
  12. Brad Reddekopp from Hazelton, British Columbia, Canada writes:
    Is more government involvement really needed? Instead, how about freeing individuals to speak as they will about what is happening?

    The first step should be to disband the Human Rights Commissions (more accurately, Freedom Removal Commissions) that offer radical Muslims such a handy tool for harassing and censoring those who dare to criticize Islam.
  13. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: jonathan briet, I'm not sure I agree with you but nicely put all the same.
  14. Michael Crowell from Halifax, Canada writes: As per our history it takes an entire village and a generation to fix a Liberal mess.
  15. Compos Mentis from Toronto, Canada writes: Gee I wonder how this story managed to make it to the Globe and Mail just in time before an election gets called? One curiously might consider how this story first came to the attention of the G & M and why, apparently, no one in the department was available to answer questions, in the department that hosted this little seminar. I'd like to know when the questions were put and what specific questions were asked? WOuldn't be that someone waited until the end of the week, before a long weekend to ask I hope! The additional useful bit of non-information is that none of the recent cuts to arts funding in Canada can be traced back to cuts in the funding for this department,. What a cool little segue into another story that clearly has not gained any traction among the voters! On the plus side, it's nice to see that someone in government has taken notice and have finally removed their head from the sand over this specific issue. However I suggest this department listen to the professor who opined, these issues are better dealt with by the police. Of course that begs the question, what are the police doing about it?
  16. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:
    Multiculturalism grants and program costs are hidden in various departments. At a guess we're blowing well over $1-billion annually on them. Designed to celebrate our differences and purchase ethnic allegiance for the governing party, they should all be scrapped.
  17. J Law from Canada writes: Jo Ingblat from Canada

    Our government is much more than a couple of political parties. The business of government does not shut down because we call an election. You are the first I have heard describe a call for election in Canada as a collapsed government.

    Other than that I take this article to mean that a topic is being put forward to discuss and debate to see if there is something that needs doing. Do you believe Canada's core values need protection or are the fine or under pressure from outside influences?
  18. Vern McPherson from writes:
    I'm in my 60's and I have never yet experienced anything like 'youth extremism' or religious extremism. '

    Sure there are head cases around in most religions, Christian, Jewish and Muslim but really folks .........

    What police cases ???

    What is all this about anyway ???
  19. robert quinn from Japan writes: Yes, 'youth extremism.' How coy. So now you have another taste of what it used to be like reading Pravda and Trud back in the day (according to malcontent Russkies). Seriously, though, Heritage Canada--a government department stuffed to the gunnels with tolerant, progressive, multi-culti policy wonks and used Liberals--combatting 'religious radicalism'? About as likely as Hillary Clinton bussing Obama off camera. Instead, any program that crawls out of committee meetings will actually attempt to persuade Canadians religious radicalism is a chimera (apart from that displayed by Christian pro-lifers). Meaningful action is as likely as clear and direct language in their press releases. I'm guessing...greater funding for festivals and pamphlets. And maybe winter symposiums in Vancouver to explore the issue in depth.
  20. Compos Mentis from Toronto, Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes: I'm in my 60's and I have never yet experienced anything like 'youth extremism' or religious extremism. '.....

    Were you asleep during 9/11 or was that just another hoax? Ever heard of Bin Laden, Al Zwahari, Hamas the Taliban?
  21. Jo Ingblat from Canada writes: J Law, you're right. There's nothing inherently wrong with proposing new government policy, etc. But no, our core values are doing fine, and there's no reason anywhere anyhow to suggest they're under threat--or that fighting religious extremism would preserve them anyways. What's being proposed here, I might ask? An advertisement campaign? Any slogan ideas? How about: 'Don't be so extreme! Just chill--you're in Canada, eh?'
  22. Stude Ham from Outremont, Canada writes:
    This is the most frightening philosophical garbage to come out of any department now bweing run by the harper goons.

    The philosophy basically states that anything that looks different than the right wing white christian image is suspect and must be stopped because maybe... just maybe ... it might lean towards dangerous designs.

    This type of logic is pure bigotry has no place in canada.

    The heritage department must be stopped from pursuing this train of logic.

  23. wayne ouellette from Canada writes: That's because you never leave your hut Vern........ The government will continue to find and cancel wasted spending and that is what millions of Canadians want them to do. After the election the liberals will be holding 'what happened' forums all over the country. Do liberals actually believe they can remain the official opposition? Two dynamic leaders, dion and Layton, fighting for recognition and preparing for new careers, will begin talks to merge their left wing parties, and will attract David Suzuki and Lizzy May as potential leaders. Can't wait for the toilet to flush.
  24. jake and pete from Canada writes: Right wing Left wing always a joke, wake up Canandians and do your part.
  25. Opinion in Toronto from Toronto, Canada writes: Multi-culturalism was premised on the view that most cultures were tolerant and respectful of others, so 'live and let live.' That's fine for liberal cultures but not for ones which believe that they and they alone are the only true ones.
  26. Compos Mentis from Toronto, Canada writes: Stude Ham from Outremont, Canada writes:
    This is the most frightening philosophical garbage to come out of any department now bweing run by the harper goons. The philosophy basically states that anything that looks different than the right wing white christian image is suspect and must be stopped because maybe... just maybe ... it might lean towards dangerous designs. This type of logic is pure bigotry has no place in canada. The heritage department must be stopped from pursuing this train of logic......

    Wow, talk about visceral hatred! But really, the only philisophical garbage are the rantings of people such as yourself who have the ability to make fantastic leaps of illogic opining that this might lead to 'dangerous designs', whatever that is. Do us a favour, try and re-read the entire article without any trace of bias or opinion beforehand, then come back after and let's have a 'logical' discussion about the topic of whether this branch of government should or should not get into the game of battling religious extremism, or even if such extremism exists in our country. And please when you return, try and leave out the anti-Harper rhetoric, it does spoil the fun of the debate!
  27. jc pomerleau from Canada writes: The multiculturalism is in question in United Kingdom. But they are getting there late. Here is a most read story about a journalist s intrusion in a big Mosque in London, an encounter with the wahabit spell right in the centre of the City : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2653266/Preachers-of-separatism-at-work-inside-Britains-mosques.html
  28. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: Canada's abandonment of Omar Khadr is a greater threat to our core values of 'live and let live' than any radical youth .The assumption that there is a 'new treat', requiring new tactics, is always the greater threat to our values than the bogeyman.Radical youth , will learn by our example of tolerance, respect for others,and the rule of law. Respecting our own core values is the best defence against all enemies.
  29. Jorly fuster from Canada writes: about freakin' time.
  30. William J Gillies from Canada writes: More Reform Party scare tactics pulled directly from the Karl Rove play book!
  31. Allan Franklin from Vancouver, Canada writes: We all knwo that the problem is not youth, it's the religious fanatics that are coming here from the Islamic countries. Call a spade a spade and focus on reality. We live in a Judeo-Christian society and radical Muslims want to destroy what we have. Although our society is not perfect it's a hell of a lot better than ANY Islamic country in the world.
  32. jc pomerleau from Canada writes: The open door to extremist is right here in the Canadian Constitution of 1982 and it s interpretation clause of :'the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, (...) ./ (It is Section 27 of the Charter that informs us the document must be interpreted 'in a manner consistent with the preservation and enhancement of the multicultural heritage of Canadians.').' . Read (this non political correctness) opinion on that matter:http://www.vigile.net/article6203.html
  33. Trudeau's Apricot poodle from Canada writes: Any group that is wants to bring baggage to Canada from problem areas should be sent back. It is time the social engineering machinations of the self proclaimed entitled be not gently but firmly placed in the garbage, not recycle bin. Canada is a land of freedom, not opportunity to incubate hatered.
  34. Pete H from Canada writes: And why you ask is a power point presentation from last March now making the headline of Canada's fabled newspaper.
    William J Gillies from Canada writes: More Reform Party scare tactics pulleWilliam J Gillies from Canada writes: More Reform Party scare tactics pulled directly from the Karl Rove play bookd directly from the Karl Rove play book
    Stude Ham from Outremont, Canada writes:
    This is the most frightening philosophical garbage to come out of any department now bweing run by the harper goons.

    This type of logic is pure bigotry has no place in canada.

    The heritage department must be stopped from pursuing this train of logic.

    Mission accomplished.
  35. Stephen Best from Penetanguishene, Canada writes: Given the Harper's religious targets in the past (women in burkas), I hope that 'religious extremists' includes all faiths, not just Muslims. Christians have lynched blacks and blown up buildings. Jews have assassinated a Prime Minister. The list goes on.
  36. Ontario Man from Canada writes: I think the conservatives have just played their trump card. A CPC majority govenmnet is now assured.
  37. Vern McPherson from writes:
    J Law from Canada writes: Jo Ingblat from Canada

    Our government is much more than a couple of political parties. The business of government does not shut down because we call an election. You are the first I have heard describe a call for election in Canada as a collapsed government.
    Other than that I take this article to mean that a topic is being put forward to discuss and debate to see if there is something that needs doing. Do you believe Canada's core values need protection or are the fine or under pressure from outside influences?
    Posted 01/09/08 at 6:25 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    =======================================

    I am surprised you call for debate and - what was that other thingy -'discuss' was it ?

    When someone called for a debate in Canada recently on an issue that effets all citizens your dear leader's response was 'screw you'.

    When consultation and consensus building - even in the most minor degree - your dear little 'leader' responds with 'he's crazy'.

    I am surprised at you law. Thought you were a little more warped than that .......
  38. David Kanaschwiiz from Switzerland writes:
    It's not just Islamic fundamentalists we need to guard against dragging back to the Dark Ages. We have Judeo-Christian sects whose social agendas (towards women, gays, etc.) are not at all different from their Islamic co-fundamentalists.

    Orest Zarowsky is right to propose banning private schools. The best hope we have against intolerance is to let the kids get together, date, and eventually marry. Private and charter schools offer each denomination a chance to build their own school walls and imply there's something wrong with 'the others.' Worst of all is the home-schooling nonsense - my European colleagues are amazed we allow that.
  39. Green Gene from Federal Bluesville, Canada writes: Here, here! The police should deal with law-breakers and these proposed changes to official multiculturalism should be scrapped after we recognize them for what they are: aimed at shoring up the intolerant vote (many of whom posted here today) for the tories. Canada doesn't need to be dragged down the same road that the US has allowed itself to. But maybe there is something to this...I'm young and want the federal government to fall: Oh no! I'm might be a radicalized youth, but I was born here....where oh where am I going to be sent 'back to'?
  40. Vern McPherson from writes: Compos Mentis from Toronto, Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes: I'm in my 60's and I have never yet experienced anything like 'youth extremism' or religious extremism. '..... Were you asleep during 9/11 or was that just another hoax? Ever heard of Bin Laden, Al Zwahari, Hamas the Taliban? Posted 01/09/08 at 6:35 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment ===================================== Get and keep a little grip CM. The Heritage Dept is a department of Canada's government. I am assuming it's policy and it's thrust would have to do with Canada not the f world. Are those radicals you cited living and acting in Canada - among Canada's youth ? Is bin Laden now masqurading as a sottish immigrant who wears a kilt or does he operate among youth here in the open in traditional Muslim Sheikh garb ? Can you tell us of the accuracy of the definition of the problem cited in the article ? Which youth are radicals and which cases are there ? Other than the spectacular one currently at trial in Brampton, Ont., I can't think of another - can you ? And ethnic street gangs adept at criminal activity - but other than treason or dethroning the govt and out system just do not exist do they ? So wtf are these fellas talking about ?
  41. The Middle Finger ..I.. from Canada writes: To Kublah Khan from Canada who wrote: Our immigration policy can assist in the solution of this problem. Canada is not an Islamic state and one has to question why we rely so heavily on Muslim immigrants. One immediate improvement would be the elimination of the the broad 'family class' immigration policy.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    And just what do you propose to replace ' Family Class ' with?

    PS: I am a retiree with only this class open to me and my wife.
  42. Leon Russell from Gatineau, Qc, Canada writes: Youth are often hotheads. Even those that prescribe to our official religion: consumerist capitalism, all-eyes-toward-hollywood.
  43. Vern McPherson from writes:
    Opinion in Toronto from Toronto, Canada writes: Multi-culturalism was premised on the view that most cultures were tolerant and respectful of others, so 'live and let live.' That's fine for liberal cultures but not for ones which believe that they and they alone are the only true ones.
    Posted 01/09/08 at 6:55 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    =========================================

    The latter sentiments are true for every religion that has ever existed - yet here we are. Of course they are always the one and true religion !! LOL !!!

    On the other hand if you can't recognize pure rabble rousing when you see it - this time by an official of our very own government in response to a non-existant reality he or the harperites invented - then you pal are in serious dodo.
  44. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    'The presentation was given in 'March' to the cross-cultural roundtable .....'

    Somewhat curious that it took the G&M about 6 months to dust of this story.....

    Next, I have never read a story with so much gobbydygook in one article!

    ' religious radicalization-integrative multiculturalism-radicalization-specific initiatives-adjust multiculturalism programming-advance core Canadian values'

    Have we become so politically correct, that we can only have 'terminology' without explanation.

    Or can someone define this from the article: ' It is difficult to determine what amount of money - if any - might be going toward the multiculturalism branch's deradicalization initiatives.'

    What is a ' Dradicalization initiative?'

    As I have stated for a long time, we need some tweaking of our Charter of Rights, but we also need a Charter of Responsibilities and Obligations for ALL citizens and another for the youth plus (changes in the YCJA!)

    Combine this with better moral and legal education in our school system in regards to repercussions to criminal acts.

    Once done, stop with the cultural divide tactics, and allow police and the justice system to do their jobs
    .
  45. The Middle Finger ..I.. from Canada writes: To Compos Mentis from Toronto, Canada who wrote: Vern McPherson from writes: I'm in my 60's and I have never yet experienced anything like 'youth extremism' or religious extremism. '.....

    Were you asleep during 9/11 or was that just another hoax? Ever heard of Bin Laden, Al Zwahari, Hamas the Taliban?

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Ever heard of slavery or the Spanish Inquisition or WWII? All caused many more deaths than 9 / 11 but oooops no Muslim perpetrators.

    Be cautious but don't paint a whole society with the same brush becasue of the few.
  46. kareem abdul jabar from Canada writes: Thank goodness. If this is Harper in action, then bring on the election and godspeed to him. Watch these self-isolated immigrant communities very closely. Now, if we can start to shape the laws as well, stopping these groups before they come in, forcing all immigrants to settle in specific locations across the country, requiring performance bonds etc. then we are really talking.
  47. victor quinton from Canada writes: Michael Crowell of Halifax makes a Great point in his comments, ' a Liberal Mess', but it, 'the mess' started some 40 years ago when the Honourable Mr. Trudeau, with the stroke of a pen, changed our immigration laws under the guise of Multiculturalism and Multilingualism. What it really meant, ' stop the immigration of peoples from the British Isles and Europe because they wanted to speak English and assimilate as Canadians. Hopefully Mr. Harper gets a majority this time around and finally cleans up this ' Liberal Mess'
  48. The Middle Finger ..I.. from Canada writes: To Allan Franklin from Vancouver, Canada who wrote: We all knwo that the problem is not youth, it's the religious fanatics that are coming here from the Islamic countries. Call a spade a spade and focus on reality. We live in a Judeo-Christian society and radical Muslims want to destroy what we have. Although our society is not perfect it's a hell of a lot better than ANY Islamic country in the world.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    What Islamic countries have you lived in? What's your benchmark?
  49. Vern McPherson from writes:
    carrierre what specifically would you like to add to this:

    'OATH OF CITIZENSHIP

    I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful
    and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty
    Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada,
    Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully
    observe the laws of Canada
    and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.
  50. bethany middleton from Canada writes: Frightening, but not surprising. THe double speak is particularly heinous. The goal, with this document, is to target muslims only. Yet there is clear evidence that peoples of all religions and all backgrounds undertake 'extremist' activities when pushed. What is 'Canada's cultural fabric' and who is going to define that? As a woman of colour who immigrated here in the 1970s, this approach - and the bigoted and racist comments that have been allowed on this thread - frighten me. Yes, I could 'go home', as so many posters have suggested. But it may be more worth my while to proclaim my visiion of Canada and to fight for its actualization than to leave this land to the bigotry and hatred of a minority (and let's face it, the conservatives are in a minority here, no matter what Michael Sharpe - conspicuously absent - and J Law might wish). Bring on the election.
  51. Allan b from Canada writes: I was born in the fiftys era. It wasn`t until the mid seventys that I even heard of the word multiculturalism. Form then on this country from my perspective has gone down the tube.
  52. Shawn W from Toronto, Canada writes: All fine and dandy and at the same time let's curb immigration from predominantly muslim countries.
  53. Blaque Jacque Shallaque from Canada writes: About TIME!!!!!!!!!!!

    How do we bring so many different peoples into Canada, yet maintain that which is good about nation, without turning it into one of those third world pits that so many new entrants come from, and appear to be seeking to recreated in their ethnic enclaves.

    About time we started the discussion. Under the liberal, there was no discussion.

    Thank you Mr. Harper!! No doubt this is an election ploy, but that's fine with me - multiculturalism as created by the liberals has become a sham, and most Canadians have serious concerns about it (except those who feed at its trough of course)

    About time.
  54. The Middle Finger ..I.. from Canada writes: To Stephen Harper's Ignorant Tories from Canada who wrote: All non-natives should be sent back to where they came from. That's the obvious solution to problems caused by the religious extremism of the white invaders of the Americas.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Good idea. Reset the clock to prehistoric times. That ought to solve the Canadian labour shortage.
  55. Shawn W from Toronto, Canada writes: The 70s are over. The 'let's celebrate our differences' and hyper-diversity are ideas that no longer work in contemporary Canadian society.

    Just look at the Khadrs. Who let them in? And the other bits of human garbage like them?

    Our immigration policy needs to be radically reformed so that immigration works for CANADA and we begin to dispell this idea that every person has some kind of God-given right to come to this country.
  56. Vern McPherson from writes:
    Why is this happening behind the scenes with the harper government offficials when the dear leader is saying this in public:

    ' Harper casts Tories as force for unity, multiculturalism
    James Cowan , Canwest News Service
    Published: Monday, August 18, 2008
    MISSISSAUGA, Ont. - Prime Minister Stephen Harper cast the Conservatives as a force of national unity and multiculturalism Monday night in a speech seemingly designed to challenge the stereotypes facing the Conservatives as they head into a possible fall election. In remarks to party supporters at a fund-raising barbecue, the prime minister seemed to make a deliberate attempt to soften the Conservative image, ......

    And that was 2 weeks ago friends - not 3 or 5 or 8 years ago........

    Now which is it ??? Which side of his forked tongue was he using ?? Which side of his mouth was he talking out of ?
  57. The Middle Finger ..I.. from Canada writes: To Shawn W from Toronto, Canada who wrote: The 70s are over. The 'let's celebrate our differences' and hyper-diversity are ideas that no longer work in contemporary Canadian society.

    Just look at the Khadrs. Who let them in? And the other bits of human garbage like them?

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    And just what piece of green plastic did you come wrapped in?
  58. Stephen Harper's Ignorant Tories from Canada writes: So the Heritage department is targeting Charles McVety? And the rest of the CON-Reform-Alliance-Party? That's great news!
  59. Anthony B from Maritimes, Canada writes: 'Islam is, by far, the fastest growing religion in Canada and that the Middle East and Asia are, by far, the biggest source countries for immigrants.'

    Wow! It doesn't take rocket science to figure out that, eventually, the 'religion of peace' will have a sufficient presence here to challenge the traditional values that have made Canada what it is. Of course, if you admire the tolerance and progressive policies practised in Pakistan and Middle Eastern countries, bring ‘em on!

    Over the past 100 years, we managed to rein in the zealots and bigots in the Christian faith, and turn Canada into a secular state. Now, it seems, all that is being reversed by a tidal wave of immigration from countries where tolerance is not an option.

    It's time to close the door, abandon policies which promote religious and cultural schisms, and concentrate on integrating new immigrants into mainstream society.

    Stop the Islamification and ghetto-isation of Canada!
  60. robert quinn from Japan writes: Guys, unless there's been a wholesale gutting of the department (and that might have made the news) this is the same outfit Sheila Copps headed for years. (Yeah, that Sheila Copps.) The faces haven't changed. The mindset hasn't changed. They're still out to create some fantasy one-world-hello kitty-rainbow-of-love nation where Canada once existed. But something in the wind drew a porcine snout up from the trough. Should the Tories do as well as the federal bureaucracy fears, serious budget cuts are certain. (Guess where?) Every professional civil servant knows how to recraft a mission statement. It may sound like they're tacking right but it's just bumpf for the press and the public. (Which isn't to argue the department shouldn't be razed when the Tories renew their mandate.)
  61. Patrick F from Canada writes: Kublah Khan hit the nail on the head... Immigration is all about winning votes. Once they get their citizenship they'll be voting for the people who can bring their families over and kiss their backsides. Thus eventually they become beholden to a foreign agenda. A politician standing up today and saying 'NO MORE IMMIGRATION' would almost be political suicide. What sickens me is that my cousin's husband was not allowed to immigrate from Ireland when he had a job lined up, was married, had kids in Canada and no criminal record and sponsors but some guy with Mohammad in his name from India with a rap sheet and no job and no sponsors can be allowed to immigrate because his second cousin twice removed named Mohammad can apply for him to come in as 'family class' or whatever
  62. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:
    Vern McPherson from writes: carrierre what specifically would you like to add to this: 'OATH OF CITIZENSHIP
    ------
    Mcpherson: First, the Monarchy thing...well, that's for another time and debate.
    It is interesting that your post is 'immigrant-specific' where my post clearly considers ALL Canadians.

    'fulfil my duties' is a rather broad and un-defined statement. Of course we have laws, but perhaps there are broader and more important 'responsibilities and obligations' that are left undefined for ALL in 2008.

    I believe we must get to the root, the youth of the country, because that is where it all starts.

    As mentioned above, the young are quite aware of the lax YCJA. There needs to be a tightening of that. Next, we need better morals, values, criminal repercussions teachings in our schools. While the breakdown of the nuclear family could be seen as holding much of this responsibility, perhaps we need inspirational leaders in the political and academic (school) arenas, that will inspire and hold responsible, the youth for both their good acts and bad actions. Youth need to be challenged. Remember those times?

    With few exceptions, that is not the case today.
    .
  63. Carolyn C from Canada writes: This comment thread is modern racism at its finest. We don't need a multicultural policy in order to teach IMMIGRANTS. In fact, that people, after all of these years and examples of immigrants being easy but wrongful targets for mass social anxiety, can still jump on that line like they INVENTED it makes me wonder if any pride I have felt in this country was pathetically misplaced.

    Us 'proud Canadians' have a lot to learn ourselves about tolerance and understanding. We failed our own multiculturalism policy by not supporting it, personally or politically, and now we're just throwing our hands up and saying, 'I guess it was never going to work! Oh well, now it looks like we tried.'
  64. Shawn W from Toronto, Canada writes: The Middle Finger ..I.. - I'm British stock ... we tend not to degrade women and blow things up.
  65. garlick toast from Canada writes: Stocky Day should worry,he qualifies as a religious extremist.
  66. Duane Freemantle from writes: One has to wonder if the Heritage department would also consider fundamentalist Christians and Jews as part of this war against religion.
  67. The Middle Finger ..I.. from Canada writes: Anthony B from Maritimes, Canada writes: Stop the Islamification and ghetto-isation of Canada!

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Until recently, many people thought the Maritimes was a ghetto on the other side of Quebec where Alexander Keith was the cult leader.
  68. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes:
    Pure unadulterated rabble rousing by the COns and nothing else ............ cheap politics.

    The kind sleaze the likes of Tom Lukiwski, anders and other COns love and thrive on ... like pupa on a cadaver .........

    ==============================================

    You forgot to mention the likes of Tom Wappel and Roseanne Skoke - No surprise there.

    Blind hack.
  69. True North from Canada writes: Here is the FEAR platform of the Harper government where different equals dangerous; where Harper's government gleefully mixes religion and politics, knowing how it divides. Time for a change Canada.

    Harper is a quitter who cannot be trusted
  70. Compos Mentis from Toronto, Canada writes: Well as usual the debate degenerates...Vern you said ' I'm in my 60's and I have never yet experienced anything like 'youth extremism' or religious extremism. ' I was simply pointing out that we were all touched by religious exrtemism, I was not offering an opinion on the state of the world or whether this particular department's position has any merit. I for one do not believe the Heritage ministry has any significant role to play, but perhaps they have some concepts or ideas that are worth considering.

    To the Middle Finger ..I.. from Canada, who typically didn't read the entire thread and made an assumption on a few lines taken out of context. Try reading what I've written before jumping to conclusions and for goodness sakes if you are going to make an argument try and be rational about it. Of course many more deaths occurred in WWII, what does that have to do with the topic. I wasn't making a numeric comparison, I was simply pointing out a recent example of religious extremism that we all can relate to. You might also want to read your history and religious texts on the issue of slavery, the hand of Islam is washed in the blood of it's slaves!
  71. Eileen Dover from Canada writes: This article sounds like the Christianist thought police at work...
  72. Colin Rose from Halifax, Canada writes: Thank the non-denominational gods. The era of the Mosaic is done- we must recognize the reality that religious extremism, amongst all sects, is on the rise in Canada. Be it the 'hip-hop jihad' of the Toronto terrorist trials that was frightenlingly exposed by the RCMP's star witness, or be it polygamist sects in BC sending Canadian daughters (children, all) to Texas to marry much older men, or be it Sikh-Hindu conflicts that result in tragedies such as Air India. And do not pounce because I didn't include a Jewish example- by all means, lay one on me rather than accuse me of an anti-Christo-Muslim-Hindu-Sikh bias. The question now becomes, what are the commonalities of radicalism amongst these groups? Heritage Canada (itself a bureaucracy and not tied to any specific government- it will be staffed by the same people, save the minister, regardless [NOT irregardless] of who wins our apparently inevitable election) is right to identify the common aspect as youth. In radical cultures, those who act fastest and hardest are the youth who feel they have everything to gain and nothing to lose- this feeling needs to be challenged, and it needs to be made clear that when radicalism becomes a dominant ideology amongst any minority, everyone has everything to lose, include the comfortable Canada we all dearly love. It is entirely possible for all religious groups to live together- so long as they agree to. As long as just one sect chooses that their religious ideology demanding prosetylization (big word? look 'er up if you don't know it) trumps every other groups right to practice without interference, then we have radical conflict. It must be made clear, through what means I cannot answer, that Canada welcomes all groups to practice, but not to preach outside, nor to aggressively impose- and this specifically includes radical Muslim use of the Human Rights Courts that have done everything they can to silence the rational debate that is our cultural heritage and right.
  73. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:
    Vern McPherson from writes:
    carrierre wants a charter of responsibilities yet has never proposed what same might look like. A bunch of talk and not much more ..........
    ---------
    Typical Mcpherson....So you are fine with status quo? That no changes need to be made to reflect society in 2008? That the YCJA is just fine the way it is? That no polarization exists in Canadian society in 2008? That all is dandy? I am just one voice who does not spend his days yelling all day 'cons are liars.' I have presented a rough framework, critique that.

    If you are all well and good with status quo, I believe once again, you represent only a small fringe element of society. Funny, I can remember some posts of yours when you went absolutely wild because some of society refused to show their faces when voting. Why was that? What is wrong with actually having to identify yourself when invoking the sacred democratic privilege of voting.....many died to protect that privilege! Now, fire away mcpherson.. 'Cons are liars'.....lol
    .
  74. CM Chen from Toronto, Canada writes: The 70's , 80's era policies definitely needs updating.
    Mr. Trudeau's multiculturism outside a national identity and Mr. Clark's 'community of communities' failed to address our nation building emphasizing the core values of our country.

    Our country does not represent a passport of convenience, a place to continue the strife of other nations' strife and religious conflicts.

    We are democratic, pluralistic, open country. Our core values include entrepreneurism, respect for environment, labour practices, religious freedom, separation of church from state, respect of the first nation, the two founding groups, tradition and values.....

    Terms like 'We are not Americans, we are Canadians' are jingoistic and do not add value to our identity. We can define ourselves and promote our core values, ironically much like the Americans have done, but in our own ways.
  75. Vern McPherson from writes: It is truly astounding that the right wingfers here who adore harper as the final solution to their problems on immigration and this phoney Muslim racicals thingy. In new York harper said this in 06 - AFTER the election when he was the new PM: 'Yesterday at the United Nations World Forum, Prime Minister Stephen Harper proclaimed that despite criticism on the issue, Canada will be maintaining its open-door policy to immigrants. Harper claimed Canada's cultural diversity as its 'greatest strength' against the terrorist threat that exists against all cities in the world today. The Conservative government is committed to 'preserving and strengthening the cultural diversity that makes us strong'. Again I ask, which of harper's mouths was that talking ?? Or are the bigoted ignorami posters here are as convinced as the rest of are on harper's secret agenda for Canada ? Since June, 06 when he spoke those words 'open door policy' and all that bunk, we now have a governent who can block or approve any application of any imigrant anywhere. We have no law to speaks of - just ministerial authority. Where does that take us ? Where does that take us when officials of the harper government are out defining 'subversives ' and phantom radicals in the Muslim community as a threat to Canada? Calling for what policy change ?? harper already said there would be no change !!!
  76. Roop Misir from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Anthony B from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    'Islam is, by far, the fastest growing religion in Canada and that the Middle East and Asia are, by far, the biggest source countries for immigrants.'

    'Over the past 100 years, we managed to rein in the zealots and bigots in the Christian faith, and turn Canada into a secular state. Now, it seems, all that is being reversed by a tidal wave of immigration from countries where tolerance is not an option.

    'It's time to close the door, abandon policies which promote religious and cultural schisms, and concentrate on integrating new immigrants into mainstream society.

    'Stop the Islamification and ghetto-isation of Canada!'

    Questions:

    (1) If there is a nation policy of integrating new comers into
    Canadian society, will immigrants from those countries still be
    attracted to Canada?

    (2) Is it Canada's official multiculturalism that these immigrants find
    so attractive? Or the opportunity for a change in lifestyle, jobs
    and the need to escape from their countries 'where tolerance
    is not an option'

    (3) Is it time to reverse the policy of multiculturalism (which some
    say promotes ghettoization and perpetuates hate and
    intolerance) in favor of integration and acceptance of Canadian
    values?
  77. Andrew Smith from Toronto, Canada writes: Western Europe is one of the last places Canada should be looking for models on how to integrate immigrants, Muslim or otherwise. Western European countries should adopt Canadian-style of multiculturalism. What disturbs me about this report is that some civil servants appear to be overlooking the vast differences between Canada's experience with immigration and those of countries such as Britain, the Netherlands, France, or, god forbid, Germany. Let's take the case of Britain, the country that is closest to us culturally and which has non-racist immigration laws, like us. Britain has a significant problem with Islamic extremism. But in Canada, Islamic extremism really isn't an issue. There were a few arrests in Toronto a couple of years ago, but the charges against most of those young guys have been dropped. Twenty years ago there was a problem with Sikh radicalism, but that movement has dissipated.

    In fact, what is striking about the Canadian experience is that a society with such a high proportion of foreign born people (19%--only Australia has a higher figure) is so peaceful and so cohesive. Canada's success is due to several factors. We have a points system for immigration, which means that most of our immigrants soon enter the broad Canadian middle class. No Brick Lane type slums. We make is easy for immigrants to gain full citizenship (no 2nd generation Gastarbeiter here). Moreover, white Canadians are, on average, less racist than people in many other countries (I cite the World Values Survey and my own experiences). Many of the 7/7 bombers in England had experience racial violence in the schoolyard as children-- that's sort of thing is much less common here.

    Of course, we can debate whether the Multiculturalism Act of 1971 was a cause of Canada's tolerance or a simply an expression of it, but I think that multiculturalism in the broader sense of the term helps us to explain the Canadian success story.
  78. The Middle Finger ..I.. from Canada writes: To Shawn W from Toronto, Canada who wrote: The Middle Finger ..I.. - I'm British stock ... we tend not to degrade women and blow things up.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    And I suppose slavery, world suffrage and lack of voting rights were stellar mainstays targetted only at the male population of the British Empire? How little you know about your history.
  79. Vern McPherson from writes:
    Now carrierre wants to legislate morality ?

    Did I say legislate ? I think he means establish 'morality' in the f constitution !!!!

    The goverrnment of Canada is not the one to define morality carrierre friend. We have an extensive Criminal Code that defines what is not acceptable behavior in our society. And penalties to go with it.

    Just take a long look at this article and the comments on it here against what harper has said quite clearly ? You trust these yahoos with your morality ?

    Morality is like beauty carrierre it's in the eye of the beholder these days and very private at that. Any restriction to that principle restricts freedom. It does not enhance it. That is why this charter of responsibilities stuff is such a dumb idea going absolutely nowhere.
  80. Earl Anthony from Sudbury, Canada writes: One could argue that multiculturalism has failed in France and England where not even police cannot travel in certain areas. Australia and the Netherlands has seen a total breakdown of civil order thanks to pandering of some cultural communities.

    Immigrants should be welcomed. However, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And multiculturalism keeps people apart.
  81. Shawn W from Toronto, Canada writes: The Middle Finger ..I.. - Thanks for the update; I'm quite well aware that the British have a lot of blood on their hands historically. But we're talking about right now --- multiculturalism in Canada --- is it working --- etc.
  82. Allan b from Canada writes: All this multiculturalism is costing me my freedoms. It is time to take canada back as it was in the mid 1900s. It seems to me we tolerated other nations and let them come here to live in peace and harmouny. Now it seems we are constantly altering our ways of life to accomidate the people we are letting in to this once great country.
  83. Green Gene from Federal Bluesville, Canada writes: Shawn W from Toronto, Canada writes: The Middle Finger ..I.. - I'm British stock ... we tend not to degrade women and blow things up.

    ___________________________________________________________Shawn, tell that to the Irish/Boers/and any African or Asian that 'hosted' the British Empire...it may surprise you but 'British stock' created the concentration camp and have historically been the most violent invaders giving no tolerance of locals customs, religions, or languages....hey, but I'm sure that my Irish and Acadian ancestors would agree that ye don't 'degrade women and blow things up', unless of course the women are of a different nationality, then rape for the empire is a virtue. Perhaps, because you are of 'British stock' you support these bigots.
  84. Vern McPherson from writes:
    Typical Mcpherson....So you are fine with status quo? That no changes need to be made to reflect society in 2008? That the YCJA is just fine the way it is? That no polarization exists in Canadian society in 2008? That all is dandy? I am just one voice who does not spend his days yelling all day 'cons are liars.' I have presented a rough framework, critique that.'

    =========================================

    carrierre getting all scary over something that does not exist is stupid. And that is all I have for you on this ........
  85. Cosmo Spacely from Canada writes: Auslanders Raus!!!!
  86. Big Wayne Kerr from Canada writes: Now Vern pretends to care about freedom while blindly supporting the LPC!

    Shameless.
  87. True North from The Free West, Canada writes:
    1. I am surprised that this is not Fully Moderated or Closed, as is almost every forum on social issues around here.

    2. Wow - a government that promotes Canadian identity and good citizenship. How radical! How un-Canadian!
  88. Big Wayne Kerr from Canada writes: Vern McPherson ' getting all scary over something that does not exist is stupid'

    Like Allah?
    The imaginary friend for adults?