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Federal Resources minister slams B.C. carbon tax

JUSTINE HUNTER

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 5:37 PM EST 03/09/08

“I think it's fundamentally the wrong approach and I would say that to anyone who brings in that policy,” Gary Lunn says, as election announcement approaches ...Read the full article

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  1. Stan L from Canada writes: BUT BUT That can't be......the Premier of B.C. said that Harper thought the plan was good...,'The decision by British Columbia to impose a carbon tax in July complements the federal government's plan to combat climate change through regulations, despite concerns to the contrary, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Tuesday.'
  2. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Don't get me wrong.

    I'm a Gordo fan.
    I love what the BC Liberals (read: BC Conservatives) have done for this province.

    The carbon tax sucks.
    It's got BC so up in arms that the provincial NDP are polling higher!
    Carole Freaking James and her Merry Band of Socialists.
    Polling higher.

    Bad move, Gordo.

    Dion?
    Are you paying attention?
  3. Stan L from Canada writes: Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada......But how do you reconcile Lunn slamming it and Harper saying that it compements their existing program? Is Lunn trying to flex his contractors muscles and have an opinion? Does he know that it contradicts the Lord and Master's?
  4. mike sty - from Canada writes:
    Why are all short CONservatives super-retards??????

    Flaherty?? Lunn???

    Dumb and Dumb r
  5. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    mike sty?

    Excellent post, sir.
    Concise, succinct.

    11 words and only one typo.
    That must be a personal best for you.

    You are aware that dumbness is unrelated to retardation aren't you?
    Or would the irony be lost on you?
  6. Vern McPherson from writes:
    Is this like the non revenue neutral Income trust tax ?

    Was that tax revenue neutral or what LOL !!

    Oh, ......flakerty said we won big .........

    Michael Sharpe who will foot the bill for the CPC's Turning The Corner plan ?? I think the number was 8.5 billion ??

    Is that a new tax or what do you call it Michael ??
  7. Richard Hawrelak from Sarnia, Canada writes: michael (5:35 pm) ... you nailed it!
  8. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Vern baby.
    The environment is now 3rd on Canadians' list of priorities.
    And falling.

    Environmental plans are not the be all to end all.

    Dion has put all his eggs in one basket.
    And now he's about to sit on them, hoping they'll hatch.

    Brawk!
  9. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: mike sty - from Canada writes:
    Why are all short CONservatives super-retards??????

    Flaherty?? Lunn???

    Dumb and Dumb r

    ================================================

    Why are all Liberals blind apologists - and liars in Sty's case - and pious, holier-than-thou, self-righteous sheep?
  10. Tom Paine from If you vote for Harper, you have no right to ever complain about lying politicians, Cape Verde writes: LOL! This seems like a perfect time for a pissing contest with an experience Premier of a large province. Yep, that's the tories for you -- stragedy.
  11. Michele K from Ottawa, Canada writes: People - please read carefully - Lunn prefaced his remarks with, 'I think', therefore anything that follows is claptrap, for we know Lunn cannot think.

    First he's a nuclear safety expert, now he's an expert on the environment (and in complete contradiction to his party's formal stance to boot) - wow - he's amazing!
  12. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: Vern McPherson from writes:
    Is this like the non revenue neutral Income trust tax ?

    Was that tax revenue neutral or what LOL !!

    Oh, ......flakerty said we won big .........

    Michael Sharpe who will foot the bill for the CPC's Turning The Corner plan ?? I think the number was 8.5 billion ??

    Is that a new tax or what do you call it Michael ??

    ================================================

    Flaherty never said the IT tax was revenue neutral.

    Baird came straight out and told everyone that his plan would cost 8B per year - at a time when the LPC and the rest of the opposition was trying to get the government to implement Kyoto - BUT THEY WOULD NOT PROVIDE FIGURE ON WHAT KYOTO WOULD COST OR HOW THEY WOULD OFFSET THOSE COSTS.

    C'mon Vern, tell us that if a plan that is going to cost 8B per year is no good, then how much is a great thing like Kyoto going to cost per year and what is the plan to offset those costs.

    You MUST have an answer, since we now know Dion's plan is nothing more than a lie.
  13. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: Tom Paine from If you vote for Harper, you have no right to ever complain about lying politicians, Cape Verde

    ==============================================

    I hope if you are planning to vote Liberal you realise the irony in your moniker.
  14. D. B. from Greater Sask., Canada writes: CPC is out of the gate early with its criticisms, direct or indirect, of the Liberals' Green Shift plan. Good. It lets the Liberals adapt accordingly and as necessary.
  15. gilles monenemie from Montreal, Canada writes: Why doesn't Lunn have the guts to day the same thing to jean charest in Quebec. Do quebecers really want to see cheap US coal and russian natrual gas LNG imports come into the country, hell no. We support carbon taxes which will help stimulate our renewable energy and our energy efficiency industries.
  16. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    From Ed Long from Canada on another site writes:

    ... reading a report of the Ipsos Reid poll regarding the Green Shift.

    The opposition to this policy is growing in Ontario and Quebec, and static in the Maritimes. The prairies are basically dead against, and B.C. is even registering about 45% against.

    But most interesting are the demographic splits. People under 30 are almost two thirds in favour but as the age groups get older the opposition dramatically increases.

    Overall the increase in opposition to the Green Shift has not been offset by increases in support for the Liberals as a whole.

    We are going into tough economic times.

    If Harper plays up the negativity of the Green Shift and Dion sticks to the policy as dogma ...Harper will gain seats, maybe not 28, but he will gain.
    ---
    Recent polls are now chiming in.

    Unfortuately, several in the under 30 age don't vote, and while they are concerned about the environment because it is THEIR future at stake, do not understand that the Liberal Carbon Tax IS NOT an environmental plan...but a wealth shift to fund the Liberal Party and their pet projects with friends! History would repeat itself...
    .
  17. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Richard Hawrelak from Sarnia, Canada writes: michael (5:35 pm) ... you nailed it
    ---------
    March Dafodil Michael: too perfect!
    .
  18. Steven Koning from Bloomfield, ON, Canada writes: If Liberals were serious about making Canada green, they would all move to China so Canada's GHG emissions would be way lower, and so would our taxes be much lower since we wouldn't have to support all these Liberal tax-sucking leeches.
  19. Bill Woodcock from Canada writes: R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Unfortuately, several in the under 30 age don't vote, and while they are concerned about the environment because it is THEIR future at stake, do not understand that the Liberal Carbon Tax IS NOT an environmental plan...but a wealth shift to fund the Liberal Party and their pet projects with friends! History would repeat itself...

    Another unfounded statement by Mr. Carriere. No statistical proof, no researched proof, just CPC gabfest scare tactics. Maybe you should change your surname to Crier. ( as in town Crier for Harper) But then, Parrot would fit well too... LOL
  20. Hugo Hall from Calgary, Canada writes: Maybe Mr. Lunn and the Prime Minister have differring opinions on the subject?

    Mike Sty calling someone dumb - ultimate in pot calling kettle black?
  21. James Tod from Vancouver, Canada writes: I find this shocking. The BC Liberals have much closer ties to the CPC than the Federal Liberals, and Gary Lunn has the nerve to pick a fight with us? Has the CPC gone mad? They are the one's failing to put together a national program forcing the Provinces to take individual actions to combat climate change.

    I'm sorry but digging for more oil is simply not going solve this problem, we should keep digging but we also need to act responsible, I don't want tar ponds (visible from space) in my province - like in Alberta.

    My other HUGE point of contention on this is that the CPC is willing to not talk about Quebec's Carbon Taxes and not talk about Quebec's proposed Safe Injection Site, yet BC is wrong on both and gets chastised? This honestly makes me angry, isn't this the party of the West? I can take most of the comments from the CPC, but this blatant double standard is too much.
  22. Vern McPherson from writes:
    Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:
    Vern baby.
    The environment is now 3rd on Canadians' list of priorities.
    And falling.
    Environmental plans are not the be all to end all.
    Dion has put all his eggs in one basket.
    And now he's about to sit on them, hoping they'll hatch.
    Brawk!
    Posted 02/09/08 at 5:52 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

    ====================================

    Come come Michael. Is that all you have ??

    I promise not to argue facts with you OK ??

    Jst tell us again about the great advantage of pumping raw sewage owned by 400,000 citizens into the ocean ???
  23. Bill Woodcock from Canada writes: Hugo Hall from Calgary, Canada writes: Maybe Mr. Lunn and the Prime Minister have differring opinions on the subject?

    Now Hugh, that is ridiculous. You know that the only one in the party with an opinion is Stephen Harper. And all of his opinions are on sleep teaching discs. That's why CPC M.P's are 24 hours behind their leader when they speak.. LMAO
  24. Vickky Angstrom from Canada writes: Gary Lunn just noticed the environment and the economy are linked. What a whore that man is to piggyback on the NDP's campaign against the Gas Tax without having to take any risk whatsoever. Yuck.
  25. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:

    Of course the BC carbon tax will have no impact on emissions.

    It is an exploitive, opportunistic ploy to build government revenues.
  26. The Central Scrutinizer from Canada writes: Like lemmings, jumping off the carbon footprint ledge..why? There is absolutely no proof there is any connection between climate change and C02. None. If there is, let's see it. Not conjecture, not theory, but proof. The earth may warm up, but the warming trend has ceased already, and there is no proof at all it was carbon related. However, it is a big money maker for some folks, and a vote getter for political hacks (see above). Suckers all.
  27. June from Western Canada from Canada writes: When the NDP has pulled up to launch a serious challenge to the BC Liberals, then they better wake up that they have abandoned their elected mandate and rammed through a tax without debate or prior information. And Carole Taylor left provincial politics? Thank God. I wish I could get a reply from Colin Hansen and Baird on why we are getting charged the GST on their new Carbon Tax on our utility bills.. It's election time folks...Rural BC, meaning anywhere outside the lower mainland, are not happy campers....we are coping with our changing climate (cooler and stormy) We don't need more tax, we need more assistance and alternatives to change to energy efficient heating and transportation systems.
  28. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:

    Lunn is wise to criticize the BC carbon tax debacle.

    The PC's can exploit public outrage over the tax grab.
  29. n w from Copenhagen, Canada writes: Clearly the Right Honourable Minister of Natural Resources has not studied economic theory. It is well documented, in the field of environmental economics, that a tax on pollution, set at the appropriate level, will lead to a socially optimal level of pollution. Perhaps the Minister would consider reading a textbook on the matter before 'categorically disagreeing' with policy that is supported by substantial theoretical and empirical evidence.
  30. Bill Woodcock from Canada writes: For all of the above who agree with Gary Lunn, please answer this question. It is not a jab or slightt, it is a reasonable and relevent question.

    Stephen Harper and the few drones that he allows to repeat his words keep referring to their enviromental regulations and Harper went so far as to say the B.C carbon tax would compliment them.

    Now here's my question. Will you who protest the carbon tax please tell me what Harpers enviromental regulations are and when he implemented them..?
  31. Uncle Fester from Canada writes:

    48 pages of liberal ideology, and a rewrite of the Canadian tax system with a thin veneer of green spray paint.

    All put together by an accidental leader/ failed enviornment minister who can't manage his own finances.
  32. Green Canada from Canada writes: what typical conservative rhetoric 'don't believe a politician regarding tax shifting'...what evidence is there that a shift in taxes as opposed to an increase in taxes will occur. none. use less carbon, pay less tax, it's simple stupid. but don't let the rhetoric 'its just another tax' cloud a potentially useful shift in how things are taxed. I would much prefer a consumption tax to income tax, federally and provincially thank you very much.
  33. Derek Holtom from Swan River (only cowards use fake names on here), Canada writes: where's the story on how the Liberals are now going to make changes to the Green Shift?
    Changes on the fly. Right before an election. I still don't think it's enough to save Ralph Goodale his seat.
  34. martha stewart from Canada writes: Given how the electorate of BC feels about this supposed 'carbon tax' Lunn is saying exactly the right thing.

    On the one hand it is what the voters agree with.

    On the other hand its true.

    Carbon taxes are pigs with green lipstick, and the proceeds will be spent on whatever is politically expedient. Slush funds.

    See the story about the cut to the slush fund for the Sierra Club BC's 'climate change initiative' in this paper now. Yes, indeed, house parties for activists will save the planet.
  35. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: Bill Woodcock from Canada writes: R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes: Unfortuately, several in the under 30 age don't vote, and while they are concerned about the environment because it is THEIR future at stake, do not understand that the Liberal Carbon Tax IS NOT an environmental plan...but a wealth shift to fund the Liberal Party and their pet projects with friends! History would repeat itself... Another unfounded statement by Mr. Carriere. No statistical proof, no researched proof, just CPC gabfest scare tactics. Maybe you should change your surname to Crier. ( as in town Crier for Harper) But then, Parrot would fit well too... LOL =============================================== To use one example: Estimated voter turnout for the 2004 election: - 18 - 21.5 year olds 18 - 21.5 years of age - 39% 21.5 - 24 years of age - 35% 24 - 29 years of age - 46% In other words as Carriere said - 'several in the under 30 age don't vote' http://www.elections.ca/loi/report_e.pdf ...and as far as CPC parrots go with no researched proof - uh yeah, with 'intellects' such as the Centrist, Sty, No Common Sense, Stude Ham, Wackernagel, Evelyn Robson to name a few among your ranks your such a bunch of enlightened individuals who have the answer to everything and who's every word, though and action is marked by a parting of the heavens and the overhead appearence of trumpeting angels.
  36. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Vern, unwittingly aware of the Globe's own take on this, 'Just tell us again about the great advantage of pumping raw sewage owned by 400,000 citizens into the ocean ???'

    Oh, Vern.

    As reported today, in this very scribe, Ontario's millions are dumping raw sewage into Lake Ontario.

    Juan de Fuca?
    Rapid and fast-moving.
    A 22 mile wide by 200 mile long ocean river, displacing billions of gallons of sea water every 6 and a half hours.

    Lake Ontario?
    Basically still.

    And no doubt stagnant.

    You can't use that line of attack anymore, Vern.
    Ontario is far, far worse.
  37. by jove from Canada writes:
    The BC Carbon Tax imposed on the province by the liberals with no mandate to do so is extremely unpopular, and for the 1st time since the Liberals came to power under Campbell the NDP lead in the polls.

    I have never voted for the NDP as their policies are destructive as proven by their last go round, however, this tax grab betrayal by Gordo and crew will not go unpunished.

    I will vote NDP for the first time and predict the defeat of Gordo all because of this asinine Carbon Tax.
  38. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: Derek Holtom from Swan River (only cowards use fake names on here), Canada writes: where's the story on how the Liberals are now going to make changes to the Green Shift?

    ==============================================

    The G&M is still probably waiting for the LPC to finish consulting, clarifying and interpreting, and re-evaluating policy.

    As we know, Liberals never lie
  39. M B from Delta, Canada writes: On July 1st the price of gas in Delta BC was $1.50/L. And it hasn't dropped much since. While the concept it good, the people who supply the gas are using it to justify higher gas prices here in BC. They justify it by claiming their costs have gone up too. Its a vicious circle.

    Ditch the carbon tax and make laws that protect the environment!!!!
  40. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    Derek Holtom Swan River (only cowards use fake names on here)-like vern sty, Canada writes: where's the story on how the Liberals are now going to make changes to the Green Shift?
    Changes on the fly. Right before an election. I still don't think it's enough to save Ralph Goodale his seat
    --------
    derek-You bring up a good point.

    Less than a year ago, Dion is on record during his western swing and meetings with several editorial boards, that there would NEVER be a Carbon tax. He also ridiculed Michael Ignatieff, during the LPC convention and clearly stated, "This is bad policy!"

    Next, he proposes the largest tax in Canadian history. He then promises that ONCE COLLECTED, that people will see nice returns in YEAR 4!!! YEAR 4!!!

    Now tomorrow, there are tweaks to be announced. 3 different positions, on one single issue, in only one year!

    Of course, the Liberal partisans will equate this to "whatever" word they wish to use to downplay a lack of stability and the ability to problem solve and properly think through a situation before babbling on......and presenting a nonsense policy.

    His years with Chretien taught Dion, perhaps a good man, all the wrong things!
  41. Raymond S from The West, Canada writes:
    Micheal Sharp:

    Please keep this keyboard a$$-whooping going for a bit...
    Bloody good fun!
  42. J F from VC, Canada writes: Is there any actual proof one way or the other that the carbon tax is NOT working? Does anyone have any figures showing where the money is going and if it is doing what it is supposed to?

    If not, It would appear to me that both sides are posturing here. How about some facts and data to back this tax up or put it down? And if it is to early to say one way or the other... I'm thinking its here, let it run its course for a fiscal year and then let the slagging begin.

    Other than that, its typical con propaganda, and apparently typical Liberal defensive moves (as the offense seems to be out to lunch....for years).
  43. Bill G from Calgary, Canada writes: Even the NDP have a better policy on the environment than the Liberals. The carbon tax is a naked tax grab and income re-distribution scheme to fund non-environmental policies. It won't do thing one to save the environment and everything to raise the cost of the supply chain to the consumer. The Liberals could have been upfront and honest by proposing to increase the GST (or income taxes) to pay for these new social policies. Instead, they are the wolf in sheep's clothing. Trying to do it by stealth.
  44. David Gibson from Hamilton, Canada writes: I see in the other story that the Conservatives have edged near to majority territory in the latest poll. Mr. Harper should be sure to send some nice Christmas cake and plum pudding to Mr. Campbell and M. Dion this year. As bad as Mr. Harpers advisors are - see attack ads - both of the Liberal gentlemen have 'worse' advisors. There is nothing which will compensate for sheer lack of reasoning power, and oddly enough, it seems to be as common at the top of the heap as at the bottom.
  45. John Connor from Canada writes: The Liberals NEED a new tax to fleece the sheep with. Tt's a good thing that they have as much hope of forming a government as a snowball does in hell. They'll just have to get the party and Dion out of hock the old fashioned way - forfeit the second car and put their spouses out to work while they think of new taxes to buy us all with....
  46. siren call from Canada writes: What a fun election we're going to have!

    The federal party at war with BC, Ontario, Nfld and Labrador as well as Nova Scotia.

    Wheee, let's tear the country to pieces in pursuit of a Harperite majority and blame it all on Dion's environmental policy.

    Soon it won't be a dysfunctional parliament Harper will complain about but a dysfunctional country. At which point Harper can cut and run to Florida, taking up residence in Conrad Black's mansion.
  47. Hairy Wrangellian from Saltspring Island, Canada writes: Now why would Gary Lunn, the shifty little weasel, say we shouldn't trust politicians when they claim that a new tax is revenue neutral? Maybe he's just trying to say the Liberals are as trustworthy as the Conservatives...
  48. June from Western Canada from Canada writes: Environmental protection and change will come through Research and Development initiatives. Efficiency in fuel use is already coming because of high costs, so taxes on top of that are not necessary, but very injurious to companies and individuals trying to make ends meet. Read "Cool It" by Bjorn Lomborg....we have time to change as climate changes happen..prepare and adapt...don't waste time and money on programs that will not accomplish anything. No one has proved that lowing CO2 emissions will change the climate back to what?.....Face it, Climate Change is happening, we acknowledge that and as always, we will adapt.
    Campbell's plan will show nothing except give him money to pay for the Olympics...he has not designated it to anything but general revenues....it was a 'vote' attention getter to the many activists we have at the lower mainland. Too bad, while our medical care deteriorates more every day.
  49. George Duncan from Canada writes: Whether it is a carbon tax or whatever a tax is a tax and another tax is the last thing that anyone needs or wants. A CARBON TAX IS DUMB!
  50. D sharman from calgary, Canada writes: mike sty - from Canada writes:
    Why are all short CONservatives super-retards??????

    In lieu of intelligent comments attack personally...let me guess what party you support ??
  51. D. B. from Greater Sask., Canada writes: It is wrong to be fixated on appearances, but fun too! Why does it seem physically impossible for Lunn to be anything but CPC?

    I am pretty worried about this election. Harper indeed wanted it. That doesn't mean it's in the bag for him, but he wanted it. 'Will you support my legislation?' he asked Mr. Dion, turning his sorrowful eyes on the Liberal leader. Well, the answer to that question is another question. What is your legislation, Mr. harper? I guess they didn't discuss that in their meeting, so it is off to the polls. Normally, the government falls because of votes in the House, after legislation is introduced. Harper wants every possible edge in claiming that the opposition made governing impossible. I am very disappointed that Mr. Dion agreed to the meeting before the by-elections.

    Please, Liberals, run a smart and sharp campaign. It isn't over. It hasn't even begun. Downplay the Green Shift if you have to; let the Tories mock you for something you aren't doing. We are cursed in living so close to the US; we can't have smart energy policies like Norway does. But we can still protect our social fabric and our sense of national unity. Those are the two things Harper would go after if he got a majority.
  52. siren call from Canada writes: How will Mr. Harper's cap and trade system be any less onerous than Mr. Dion's (or Mr. Campbell's) carbon tax?

    They both involve putting a price on carbon and will affect the consumption of all carbon emitting products. Well, not gasoline in the case of Dion's plan.

    They can certainly complement one another, but why is one better than the other?
  53. Harper is Dumb/Incompetent from Canada writes: Oh yes, the CONS NEVER make mosifications to their beliefs: Belinda Stronach crossing the floor to the Liberals is an insult to democracy but David Emerson crossing the floor to the Cons 3 days after he is elected as a Liberal is no problem. The Cons claim that Liberals govern by polls and then out-poll the Liberals by a 2:1 margin. Liberals running huge surpluses is stealing from Canadians and an outrage but Harper crows about the biggest surplus in Canadian history until reporters point out his hypocrisy forcing him to storm out of the press conference and and to leave the finance minister to field questions. Cons preach giving more power to Parliament and then Gomery releases a report indicating that Harper has centralized power in the PMO to a degree unseen in Canadian history. Cons preach accountbility and then give their members a 200 page handbook on how to tie up parliamentary icommittees. Cons preach national security and then allow terrorist response plans to be found in the garbage behind a DND building and don't mind it when the Foreign Affairs minister leaves NATO briefing books in the apartment of a woman with multiple ties to organized crime. Yeah, Harper runs a steady government as shown his firing of the the Defence, Foreign Affairs, and Environment ministers while shuffling out the Justice Minister. Cuz appointing incompetent boobs to sensitive posts is the way to run a steady government. He also knows how to manage an economy: He fails to use monetary policy while the dollar skyrockets against the USD. Reports then show that Canadians don't see prices go down while tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs are lost due to the high dollar. His moronic Finance Minister announces, at the beginning of a recession and months of significant job losses, that Ontario is the last place that he would invest and Harper angers China (a major BC market) by failing to appear at the Olympics. Good job, retard!
  54. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: Where did Sty, Bill Woodcock and Vern McPartisan go?

    Must be bringing in the reinforcements.
  55. Stephen Harper has a vision for Canada ....... critize others ! from Canada writes:

    Stay the course , wait for our surge , for us or against us , that being said ............
  56. david sandford from Canada writes: Of course Lunn hasn't raised this issue with Gordon Cambell, this has everything to do with saying whatever has to be said to deny the federal Liberal party seats.
  57. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada-Hope all is good well for you and family!

    Thanks for presenting researched and exact info concerning voting patterns, ages, and performance. You saved me time!

    Wood c o c k loves to babble on with nonsense..with liberal emotion and no fact based posts...but I am now clearly understanding why that is more the norm lately.

    That said, it is very obvious that MAJOR panic and the potential
    " loss of entitlement " has set in with GREAT concern for the LPC radicals, and has enveloped the radical LPC partisans.

    The polls have become more than concerning with the wanting 'leadership' of Dion and the Carbon tax which ONLY benefits the Liberal Party coffers and their pet projects, while penalizing and gauging everyone outside of Ontario!

    My call next election? LPC 26%, mabe less, with the outright scared and fleeing of smart LPC parisans that CLEARLY recognize the left-wing former NDP hijacking of the Party is NOT acceptable!

    Options? Going to the NDP and Jack Layton who has proven through his work and class, that he and Party truly deserve the place and position of Leader of The Official Opposition!
    .
  58. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: siren call from Canada writes: How will Mr. Harper's cap and trade system be any less onerous than Mr. Dion's (or Mr. Campbell's) carbon tax? They both involve putting a price on carbon and will affect the consumption of all carbon emitting products. Well, not gasoline in the case of Dion's plan.

    Nice bait and switch siren, are you remotely aware how gasoline is refined? Oh right through energy - which will be hit hard by the Green shaft, and diesel gets no exemption. So if you are a fan of Government sponsored (oops sorry) inflation then vote away your paycheck, love to know what Dion thinks lettuce and greens might cost in January to November ??? Inflation is what this plan has written all over it - for the Planet of course!
  59. North Star from Canada writes: How radioactive - the Harper government's climate change plan is to simply pass the problem to our children.

    *Harper is a quitter who cannot be trusted&
  60. siren call from Canada writes: Building an Ark -- where's the bait and switch part?

    Yes, gasoline is refined and yes veggies are trucked to market.

    Both processes emit carbon; Mr. Dion will tax that and Mr. Harper will put a cap and trade system on carbon emissions.

    Either way, it seems to me, our costs are going to rise.
  61. Stan L from Canada writes: siren call from Canada writes: How will Mr. Harper's cap and trade system be any less onerous than Mr. Dion's (or Mr. Campbell's) carbon tax?
    They both involve putting a price on carbon and will affect the consumption of all carbon emitting products. Well, not gasoline in the case of Dion's plan.
    They can certainly complement one another, but why is one better than the other?

    A good question...the way I see it, Conservatives will tax carbon at $65/ton, Liberals at $40/ton. Conservative plan will raise natural gas prices 2% and electricity 4%, while reducing the GDP by .4% (this is in the Harper plan). The Liberal plan will also raise energy prices a similar amount, but drop corporate taxes to prevent an economic hit. The one really big difference: $9 billion in personal tax cuts and another $4 billion in help for seniors, low incomes and rural folks in the Dion plan plus the benefit of revenue to put towards forward thinking green initiatives that will stimulate the economy and create new jobs.....
  62. siren call from Canada writes: gotta run, will check in later
  63. Brad Wood from Houston, United States writes: The BC carbon tax is to pay for the Olympics. I hope Houston or Dallas never gets the summer Olympics. I don't want my tax $$ to pay for that crap.
  64. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada-Hope all is good well for you and family!

    ===============================================

    Any time R. Always a pleasure for the gentleman of these threads (to anyone but the Dion lovers anyway).

    A question R - what was the email for the "Sexy Centrist" Part concept and do you have access to it?

    You might hear from me.
  65. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: siren call from Canada writes: ...Either way, it seems to me, our costs are going to rise.

    Well done Siren, you are correct - except for the part that Dion's plan won't touch gas (not true) That's as good as Gagliano collecting funds - to re-distribute to their causes and to the regions that they deem worthy. That's the rub in the underware of hardworking folks...
  66. North Star from Canada writes: Harper promised to let the provinces manage their own affairs but then turns around and tells the provinces what to do.
  67. siren call from Canada writes: Stan L -- thanks for that. That's roughly what I see also.

    I hoped one of the pro-Harper people here might explain why the government position is better...

    now, really must dash ---
  68. Norman Ouston from Armstrong BC, Canada writes: Can someone explain to me this here Carbon Tax Scheme. Now it seems to me, everybody says there is way too much carbon going into the atmosphere. The volume should be lessened. Fair enough. Well, now somebody wants the polluters to pay huge dollars if they overshoot the quota of pollution allowed or trade these marks with another company that hasn’t reached its quota. How come? How does this help the atmosphere? Say a company sends 10 ton of carbon into the air to manufacture one ton of steel that would sell for $1,000.00. (I haven’t the faintest idea of actual numbers. This is just a for-instance.) The some-bodies of the country say that is too much and the steel company must be regulated to only 5 ton of carbon allowed for each ton of steel. Fair enough. So, the steel company actually must still produce the one ton of steel for its customers to stay in business, but must shorten its carbon output, so say the some-bodies. Well, now the some-bodies tell the steel company “If you really must sell that volume of steel, you can still produce the one ton of steel but you must pay us $20.00 per carbon ton of pollutant then everything will meet the environment worshipers’ satisfaction. Oh my! So immediately the steel company must raise the selling price of the steel to $1,100.00 per ton to make the same amount of profit. Well now it seems to me, there is just as much carbon sent aloft. The environmentalists are happy they have won a point. The Government is happy with the extra bucks. The customer is sad. The economy is hurt and just as much carbon is going into the air. So my question to be explained more clearly. How does this help anyone? Where is the gain? Well this ‘ol codger is still miffed. Me thinks we are losing ground and air. Thanks if you can help me and thanks anyhow even if you can’t. Noim da Woim.
  69. Fred McEwen from Ajax, Canada writes: Too bad we never get any details on exactly how these carbon taxes are supposed to work - only Conservatives with no better ideas slamming them in the media. Hopefully Dion will get some airtime one of these days and make it simple enough for the average G&M poster to understand. Here's my 3-point assessment: 1. As long as it's revenue neutral, a Carbon Tax is fundamentally sound. Micro-economics 101: raise the price of something and consumption will drop. We proved it this past 6 months as skyrocketing gas prices reduced gas consumption. High energy costs mean there's more incentive to find alternatives. Maybe I'll add new windows to save heating costs because it now pays back faster (consumer spending). And if my California apples cost more because they had to truck them 2000 kilometers, maybe I'll eat local produce instead (good for our trade balance). 2. Whether or not carbon emissions are causing global warming, and whether or not global warming is a bad thing - the point is we're running out of oil and we need an incentive to reduce consumption and to find alternatives. Oil costs are dropping back from their peak levels - why not keep them there to keep the incentive to innovate alternatives? 3. Another economics lesson: consumption taxes are more progressive than income taxes. Bring on the green shift, let my income tax drop, and I'll save money on a net basis by being more energy conscious. At the same time our country will be a more attractive low income tax jurisdiction for knowledge workers and high tech employers to locate. Isn't that what builds a successful economy? WHO OF YOU WOULD DISAGREE WITH THIS IF THE GOVERNMENT CAN PROVE IT'S REVENUE NEUTRAL?
  70. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: More propaganda that substance. The trivial tax that BC has put on carbon is not noticeable at the pumps whatsoever. The price of gasoline oscillates much more than the carbon tax adds to the price of gasoline. There has been a successful campaign to attack the carbon tax as something significant. It is not and neither is Dion's planned tax. In that sense, they are completely inadequate as solutions to the problem.
  71. Joe Citizen from Everytown, Canada writes: More of the same from the federal Tories.

    Wow, have they ever choreographed this election run. No stone or piece of dirt left unturned.

    Of course a carbon tax is going to unpopular. Hello ? Businesses have to pay for their contribution to the destruction of the environment, There is a direct front end cost.

    What's the alternative ? Business self-regulation ? Not too likely. Whenever business is asked to regulate itself ... it doesn't ! Imagine that.

    Business in North America and most parts of the world is short term profit orientated. Why would it place long term interests ..... environmental, social and financial in front of it's earliest profit ? This is the downside nature of people. A position completely lacking vision therefore completely unable to properly prepare for the future.

    The larger reality of the situation is either we intelligently and responsibly prepare for the future through the reduced dependency on carbon based energies and move as fast as possible to clean renewable energies or we run the risk of very serious consequences.

    The Tory party has little regard for the environment in spite of the window dressing it occasionally throws up every once and a while.

    Stephen Harper sent oil company executives to cilamte talks in Fiji. What does that tell you ?

    Much of the rest of the civilized world (with the exception of the U.S.) is looking at us and wondering what has happened to us and asking if we have lost are minds.

    Should Barak Obama win the upcoming presidential election we will look like a backwards backwater in the Western World.

    We will be a backwater in the Western World !
  72. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: Fred McEwen from Ajax, Canada writes: ... At the same time our country will be a more attractive low income tax jurisdiction for knowledge workers and high tech employers to locate. Isn't that what builds a successful economy? WHO OF YOU WOULD DISAGREE WITH THIS IF THE GOVERNMENT CAN PROVE IT'S REVENUE NEUTRAL?

    Fred - Ajax must be located in Ontario, as you must not have a clue how wheat, barley and produce is raised in the Praries or how goods in this Country get to locations thousands of kilometers away from the Golden Horseshoe. Also Government proving? Hah you must have put your head in the sand when the Auditor General warned the Liberals on the run-away costs on the gun registry...anyway it's your money the fleece fits...
  73. james cyr from Balmertown Ontario, Canada writes: If the Federal minister is slamming the BC carbon tax,then we can take that to assume that the Tories will never introduce one.
  74. Alan F. from Vancouver, Canada writes: All the bluster from Gary Lunn and his Western Canada Concept/Reofrm/Alliance/Conservative small minded, mean spirited, gutless syncophants are aimed to draw us away form the misdeeds of Harper and his gang. Like people dying from lack of federal inspections in food production, the Schriber-Mulroney affair, the Bernier affair (now thats juciey!) the In and Out scandal, the fixed election date.... the list goes on and on. So you snycophants should quite throwing stones cause you live in very frigile glass houses!
  75. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: siren call from Canada writes: Stan L -- thanks for that. That's roughly what I see also. I hoped one of the pro-Harper people here might explain why the government position is better... ============================================== I don't think any of the "pro-Harper" people would say the government plan is better. From my own point of view, it may not be worth the paper it was printed on, it might do wonders. Same with Dion's plan. However both plans have been panned from an environmental point of view in most cases. I beleive the difference here is that Baird made no apologies when the CPC plan was announced - it would cost 8B a year at its peak and costs would go up. Kyoto was viewed the same way - an increase in costs. But as I asked Vern above and many other times - if a plan that costs 8B per year is no good, then what is a plan that will supposedly save everything going to cost and what will be done to offset that? But no - all I get is an unapologetic defence of the green shaft - which has already been exposed as a non revenue neutral tax grab designed to pay for other programs FROM THE LPC WEBSITE: "By the fourth year of our plan, we EXPECT that a family with two children..." "We EXPECT"...not we PROMISE, not we GUARANTEE, but we EXPECT... In other words things may not pan out as we say. Given the past history of LPC plans and promises that should say everyhting.
  76. R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes:

    West Virginian Albino Mexican writes: A question R - what was the email for the "Sexy Centrist" Part concept and do you have access to it? You might hear from me.
    -----------
    WVAM-That set-up was funny! A way back, Margaret Wente wrote about how centrists have become "sexy-centrists." I took the name a few years ago-went to hotmail-and voila!

    sexy-centrist@hotmail.com

    I must admit, but would never reveal, that I have made contact with several people posting here via that address-on BOTH sides of the spectrum. They are ALL honourable and honest and fun people to exchange with.

    I learned a lot, and most who come have a great open spirit to talk and debate issue by issue as it concerns their specific life, family situation, and Province where they live, and ...well, just being Canadian.

    The exchanges are all over the map, but what is wonderful is that we exchange concerning ONE issue at a time and not a blind partisan "All or nothing" Party stand.

    You are very bright and would be welcome, as have been many who are diametrically opposed on some issues, yet find common ground on others. How cool is that!

    Goal? A blog soon and off these weirdo G&M fora!
    .
  77. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: Joe Citizen from Everytown, Canada writes: The larger reality of the situation is either we intelligently and responsibly prepare for the future through the reduced dependency on carbon based energies and move as fast as possible to clean renewable energies or we run the risk of very serious consequences.

    Hey Joe, please be the first to re-mortgage your house, as you see a need and obviously have the capacity to give. I don't subscribe to your new Religion, but I think if you believe, you should gain a tax cut for your faith. Please leave us out of your new social order as I don't like your Religeous views - or will you force it on all the masses to suit your pleasure???
  78. Is Dion from France or from Canada writes: West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: Where did Sty, Bill Woodcock and Vern McPartisan go?

    Must be bringing in the reinforcements.
    ---
    Yup, Diane should be along any time now.
  79. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: R Carriere, I would imagine once the partisan cloaks are cast aside, with the exception of a few blinkered apologists on both sides of the political spectrum most here are centrist.

    Even Vern!
  80. Redneck, and PROUD to be one! from Canada writes: Hey, why shouldn't BC have a carbon tax? I mean, it's BC.... LaLa Land..... you have to pay big time to be able to live there. Standard procedure, what?
  81. Roop Misir from Toronto, Canada writes: Yes, no Carbon tax.

    But how about Kyoto?
  82. Liam Smith from Canada writes: But Lunn, you're an idiot! How can anybody possibly take you seriously?
  83. Joseph Freeman from Vancouver, Canada writes: Guess its election time. Time to throw another Provincial Minister under the bus.

    Never mind that Steven Harper was dancing all around this a couple of months ago, and even praising the BC government's efforts.

    And to those of you attacking the "Liberals" on the west coast, the BC Liberal party is not affiliated with the federal Liberal party. But I'm sure Harper is hoping no one in the rest of Canada will notice that.

    Harper is a clown masquerading as a leader.
  84. Liam Smith from Canada writes: And by the way Mr. Lunn, at least there is an attempt in BC to do something. The federal government is proving themselves to be ever more useless and impotent. That's not confined to the Tories either. The Liberals were equally scared to do anything . . . at all . . . about anything.

    It seems like the provinces and municipalities are leading the way. Sounds fine with me but maybe the Feds should give them some of their money back so they can do better work.
  85. Fuzzy Bare from Canada writes: Stan L from Canada wrote: ....... "A good question...the way I see it, Conservatives will tax carbon at $65/ton, Liberals at $40/ton. Conservative plan will raise natural gas prices 2% and electricity 4%, while reducing the GDP by .4% (this is in the Harper plan). The Liberal plan will also raise energy prices a similar amount, but drop corporate taxes to prevent an economic hit. The one really big difference: $9 billion in personal tax cuts and another $4 billion in help for seniors, low incomes and rural folks in the Dion plan plus the benefit of revenue to put towards forward thinking green initiatives that will stimulate the economy and create new jobs....." ************ ************ ************* **** Stan L.... The Liberal proposal sounds too good to be true! . **Questions*** (1). (9 Billion in Tax cuts. $4 Billion to seniors, low uncome, rural folks.) Where does the money come from to pay this $13 Billions, plus the $62 Billions in pre-election promises? ******* (2). What effect will the Green Shaft Tax have on our GDP and the Canadian economy? ********(3) What is the cost estimate for consumers for electricity, home heating, transportation? ********* (4). How many unemployed, when carbon-based industries cut expenses and lay off workers? ******* (5). Election promises made by Dion are about $75 Billion, indicating a huge tax increase, such as GST and personal taxes or is Dion planning a Trudeau like plunge into Deficit? ******* (6). Can Dion keep his promise of $13 Billion in tax cuts and assistance, plus $75 Billions in election promises without plunging Canada into Defict? ****** (7). Isn't the Green Shaft Tax just a grand income re-distribution to scheme to take money from one area of Canada and give it to another, after deducting a portion and pretend it is "revenue neutral"? ---- I don't expect you or Dion have answers, the Green Shaft Tax appears to have been written on the back of a napkin, without any calculations or estimates being done.
  86. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    And guess what?

    Lunn is my MP.
    I voted for him.

    I'll vote for him again.
  87. Building an Ark from Eastern Slopes, Canada writes: R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes: *#@##!!!!

    Wow, I guess that even good tempered Folks like R. get their underwear in a knot when Partisans go over-board. Sleep well R and watch for the storms coming up the Atlantic...
  88. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: R. Carriere from Maritimes, Canada writes: I am going to uncharacteristicly let loose with a foul tirade, that I will apologize for in advance to those who may feel it to be offensive. The post will surely not appear for along time-yet will be modified for future use: ----- mike sty writes: Why are all short CONservatives super-retards?????? Flaherty?? Lunn??? Dumb and Dumber ------- What a complete f u c k e n idiot you are. The super-supposed tolerant Liberals who allow posts like this to pass, are complicit with a poster who ridicules a person because of their height? =============================================== Why do you waste your time with someone who has never been capable of an original thought since the day he has appeared on these threads - instead being trained to froth at the site of the terms Harper and Conservative like one of Pavlov's dogs before pounding on colour coded copy/paste keys like a well trained lab ape; keeps 6 month old posts on his pc like some kind of cyber freak; and constantly rails about CPC lies while bending over and asking for more Liberal lies and is one of the biggest lying @$$holes on these threads and gets proven as such every day? There has only been one poster to ever back Sty and that has been Dave Jansen aka Common Sense is Back (Even though it was never there in the first place) and now known as Democrats 08 - Liberals 08. ...and agreeing with Sty sez volumes about his intellect!
  89. tom g from upper ottawa valley, Canada writes: RC:

    Dumb and Dumber belong to a party that choses to run campaign attack ads. You play the game by those rules and pretty much anything is fair game. Not my choice and the tactics disgust me, but here it is, our election campaign fought on the basis of personal characteristics. Dumb and dumber, resplendent in their displays of intellectual short comings.

    If you want to play nice, you have to be nice, otherwise save the faux scruples and indignation. Remember the party that ran an attack ad ridiculing an opponent's facial paralysis. The game as played seriously makes me want to puke and cry for the beloved country.
  90. globefan Eh from Canada writes: After reading the comments I see that a few Canadians do not understand that the provincial BC Liberal Party is actually the conservative Party of BC.

    This is about federal conservative