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Taliban ambush trophy photos shock France

ESTELLE SHIRBON

Reuters

Latest comment posted at 10:21 AM EST 05/09/08

Photos in magazine set off new round of pained debate about country's presence in Afghanistan ...Read the full article

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  1. Arron D from Kanata, Canada writes: 'Let's stay French, bring our boys home. Piss on the women and children and innocents on the ground in Afghanistan.'

    Ma'am, I think you just did. 5 years of Vichy and you are as heroic as ever.
  2. UCant Haveitall from Canada writes: Just steel's our resolve.
  3. Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada writes: Arron D from Kanata, Canada writes: Ma'am, I think you just did. 5 years of Vichy and you are as heroic as ever.

    Maybe her background is not Vichy France, maybe her background is with the resistance, and she is familiar with the tenacity of guerilla fighters with a cause.
  4. Jan Burton from Toronto, Canada writes: 'Let's stay French. Let's get our soldiers out of the quagmire'

    That's 'staying French' alright.

    Andre Carrel from Salmo, Canada: 'Maybe her background is not Vichy France, maybe her background is with the resistance'

    Everyone's background was with the resistance - once the allies rolled in.
  5. Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes: From abroad it's probably hard to empathize with the French. They're not used to having soldiers in harm's way. I think the best we can do from here is to remind them that as their allies, we appreciate their soldiers' service and sacrifice. War is hell. But this is a war. It won't be won by laying down.
  6. Ted Andrews from Canada writes:
    END THE OCCUPATION!
    TROOPS OUT NOW!
  7. Ho Ho from Canada writes: TED...please take your chill pills!
  8. Deeply concerned citizen from Canada writes: Good. The more the common people see the horrors of war --less will they tolerate hawkish politicians who are so eager to engage in such conflicts.
  9. Forest City from London, Canada writes: 'Arron D' says that we are fighting for the women and children on ground in Afghanistan.

    Didn't we follow US there to fight Taleban cuz they gave refuge to Alqaeda.....aren't we still talking about running a gas pipe line from former soviet states through afghanistan and Pakistan to india (one of the biggest populated countries with high demands)

    It's all about profit my friend, not about Prophets.
  10. Bob Duvan from Canada writes: I hope the French come to their senses and pull their contingent out of the US colonial army. It would increase the chance that Canadians finally wake up and do the same. Around 100 young Canadians have had their lives wasted in order to indulge our treacherous politicians' urge to kiss the US neocons' boots. HARPER TO AFGHANISTAN & TROOPS HOME! -- ONE WAY, BOTH! -- NOW!!
  11. ImaCANADIAN ! from Canada writes:
    The article glaringly fails to inform the reader that the French public, like the Canadian public and the public of most countries, is against their country's military involvement in Afghanistan.

    A poll in April found that a full two-thirds of French citizens, the 68% majority, are against Sarkozy's plan to increase the number of troops, while only a tiny 15% minority supported it.

    A poll in June found that the majority 54% of French citizens want US & NATO troops to leave Afghanistan 'as soon as possible', while 46% want them to stay.

    The most recent poll in August found that the majority 55% of French citizens want their troops brought home, while only a minority 36% want to keep them there.

    In France, as in Canada, the public is clearly against continuation of the war, but the likes of Sarkozy and Harper ignore their citizens and intently follow Bush.
  12. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: Brendan, if I've told you once I've told you a thousand times. It's not 'Typical Talibn/al Qaeda murderous terrorist barbarism...' It's 'Typical Talibn/al Qaeda murderous terrorist sub-human barbarism...'

    If you're going to spew jingo, at least get it right.
  13. Barrie Collins from Long Sault, Ontario, Canada writes: I cannot see why France is sending troops to Afghanistan. Afghanistan has not attacked France, nor declared war on it. After 9/11, the US bad-mouthed France repeatedly for not immediately joining in the'War on Terrorism'. The only possible reason for France's having troops there is that the French Government wants to win brownie points with George Bush.

    Come to think of it, Afghanistan has not attacked or declared war on Canada either, and the US bad-mothed us. So, perhaps Harper's brownie point collection is the only valid explanation for Canada's prescence there too.
  14. Darrin Duell from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Bob Duvan from Canada writes: I hope the French come to their senses and pull their contingent out of the US colonial army. It would increase the chance that Canadians finally wake up and do the same. Around 100 young Canadians have had their lives wasted in order to indulge our treacherous politicians' urge to kiss the US neocons' boots. HARPER TO AFGHANISTAN & TROOPS HOME! -- ONE WAY, BOTH! -- NOW!!
    -------------------------------
    suggesting that our soldiers lives were wasted is terrible.. our soldiers are their so that little girls can go to school without suffering mutilation, the Afghan people can finally have security without relying on feudal warlords, their economy can develop and they will have some sort of future for their children. Don't you get it?! Terrorism rises out of hopelessness, we are providing these people with hope so that Afghan will not be a breeding ground for terrorists, as it has been. Some things are worth fighting for.
  15. David Smith from Canada writes: It amazes me that anyone could have a strong opinion, one way or the other, re the situation in Afghanistan. On the one hand, it meets every possible definition of being a quagmire. On the other, if left to it's own resources, it's a certainty that the Taliban or any new Afghani gov't with Taliban sympathies would assist the Islamist militants in their attacks on western countries. Niether point is disputable in any serious way.

    This is a classic 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation and the solution, if any, involves niether blind support for current policies nor simply walking away from it. The increasing political instability in Pakistan and how to deal with that is the likely key to anything resembling success in resolving this unbelievable and sorry mess.
  16. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: Forest City from London, Canada writes: Didn't we follow US there to fight Taleban cuz they gave refuge to Alqaeda.....aren't we still talking about running a gas pipe line from former soviet states through afghanistan and Pakistan to india.....It's all about profit my friend, not about Prophets.

    When you remove Taliban from power, you have to find replacement and if Taliban (supported by Pakistan) keep fighting you have to fight back. It is not rocket science.

    The Pipeline was championed by Pakistan's B. Bhutto in 90's and is one of the reason Pakistan created/supported Taliban. Taliban were also championing the same pipeline. TAPI will take resource from Turkeministan (they own the resource and will make the lion share of money), through A-tan (they will make transit charge money - that is why Taliban were champion) to Pakistan (they need the resource and that is why Bhutto was a champion).

    Waging war is the worst possible thing to do if US wanted the pipeline. IF this was about money, this pipeline could have been built in 97/98 by bribing Taliban. Pakistan was giving them $1 million a month, not even pocket change for US or CIA.
  17. Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: David Smith says: 'On the one hand, it meets every possible definition of being a quagmire. On the other, if left to it's own resources, it's a certainty that the Taliban or any new Afghani gov't with Taliban sympathies would assist the Islamist militants in their attacks on western countries. Niether point is disputable in any serious way.'

    False. Your second claim is highly disputable. The war is CURRENTLY a quagmire. It's there for all to see. What a new government in Afghanistan might do is hypothetical, it's in an unforeseeable future. And were that future to include the normal political and economic ways of dealing with what you fear, one can 'seriously' envision a better way of doing things than making war.

  18. M Liggins from Perth, Canada writes: END THE WEAK ARGUMENTS! STOP USING CAPITAL LETTERS NOW!
  19. francesco galassi from Ferrara, Italy writes: I am surprised nobody thought of Marshall McLuhan, a great Canadian, who wrote (in The Gutenberg Galaxy, I think) that the press magnifies and intensifies the actions it reports, acting as a kind of boom box for whoever carried them out, whatever you may privately think of them.

    So the topic for today is not the military virtues of the French but the proper place of press freedom in times of war. Don't scoff at it. It's tough, especially with a 2000 character limit.
  20. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: It seems most people don't have the very basic info, Canada and France are in Afghanistan as part of UN sanctioned ISAF AFTER US removed Taliban.

    UN was also trying to fix the problems in A-tan before 2001 for about a decade without any internatinal force. That did not work very well - warlords, taliban and finally Al Qeeda getting a foothold in A-tan.

    Simple answer is without ISAF, UN can not fix anything in A-tan. As David Smith above said 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'.
  21. Bart Farquart from Carbon Central, Canada writes:
    Hi boys and girls:

    Being a big, grownup country (whether France or Canada) sometimes means taking part in security and peacekeeping operations in failed states. Sometimes such missions are expensive and cost lives. This is the difference between lip service and walking the talk.

    The Afghan mission was apporoved by the U.N., enabled by NATO and is supported by both Canadian political parties who could theoretically form a government.

    Have a nice recess.
  22. Jack Robertson from Toronto, Canada writes: There are two possible solutions to the war in Afghanistan - to obliterate the country and depopulate it or to leave. Any half-measure will only result in the return to power of the Taliban or similar filth.
  23. Jan Burton from Toronto, Canada writes: Richard Roskell:

    Explain to me what you think would happen if NATO left.

    From what I gather you think there will be peace; that the Taliban will not war with the other ethnic groups; that the Tajiks, Ukbeks and Hazarra won't tear eachother apart, and that women's right will somehow IMPROVE under the people who burn their schools and ban them from work.

    You seem to think that a stable, reasonable Taliban government will take power which will allow for Afghanistan to progress at a faster rate than it now is.

    In a nutshell you think that the problem lies with the people who are bringing in aid workers and construction crews and NOT with the people trying to KILL aid workers and construction crews.

    Not saying you're wrong, I just don't see how this relates at all to the world in which we actually live.
  24. ANONY MOOSE from Timmins, writes: France is one of the worlds largest arms exporters so before everyone gets all worked up, consider the fact that it may have been weapons purchased from France that killed those heroic soldiers.
  25. A M from Montreal, Canada writes: “However it is true that the Taliban have become masters in the art of communication,&8221;... ok there... how can you say that they are holding trophies? to them its just more ammunition... maybe its our media thats taking this out of control... we take a few pictures and say they're trophies and so on... get the general public more and more frustrated against the 'enemy' and lets get back to war... do you really think war is only one sided? wake up people... the fact that I'm actually wasting my time writing this posting just makes me realize that I'm stooping down to all your levels... if you are all smart enough... you people shouldn't believe what eveyone writes... next thing you are all going to tell me is that the Bible is based on historical fact and not theories... come on people wake up before the rest of the world wakes you up... I said it once and I'll say it again... THIS WORLD NEEDS A BIG SLAP IN THE FACE!
  26. Jan Burton from Toronto, Canada writes: Forest City from London:

    'aren't we still talking about running a gas pipe line from former soviet states through afghanistan and Pakistan to india (one of the biggest populated countries with high demands)'

    You might be shocked to know that Turkmenistan, Pakistan and India want the pipeline more than anyone.

    If the US was so concerned about the pipeline they could have had it up and running YEARS AGO by simply offering diplomatic recognition to the Taliban regime in 97. They would have had Afghan stability and pipeline bypassing Russia and Iran.

    Instead they apparently opted for a costly guerilla war (which makes a pipeline impossible), during which time Russian oil giant Gasprom acquired the rights to Caspian oil.

    Quite the war-for-pipeline scheme that was!
  27. Beaverton Bob from Beaverton ON, Canada writes: I am about to suggest to the Legion that the government should issue a tight schedule for the cortege that carry the Canadian Dead heroes along the 401 so that I can gather at an overpass to pay my respects.
    This article gives me pause, with the statement of the Defense Minister Herve Morin that I might be doing the Taliban a favor in the Progaganda War
  28. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: Richard Roskell from Naramata, Canada writes: ......False. Your second claim is highly disputable....

    .....let us ignore the history of 90's....let us also ignore the fact that Pakistan playing games in A-tan created the problem......Let us also ignore the fact that Pakistan is still playing the same games....Let us also ignore all the fundamentalist from ME that took advantage of the situation last time....let us also ignore that Taliban have policy of delibrately targetting civilians.

    This time things will be different........only in your delusions.
  29. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: Jan Burton from Toronto, excellent response to this TAPI nonsense.

    It wouldn't have taken the diplimatic recognition...Pakistan were paying Taliban $ 1 million a month, some weapons and Toyota trucks.

    A million a month is not even pocket change for US; US gave enough weapons to Mujahadeen in 80's....All this at taxpayers expense.
  30. Fred Smith from Canada writes: Canada has spent 7 billion $$$ on this war and Afghanistan since 2001 .. 96 Canadian soldiers killed and this war gets worse ..
  31. He Shoots! He Scores! from Chicago, United States writes: The bushies blew it. They tried to pay war lords who were the one time allies of AQ and the Taliban in their fight against the USSR to fight AQ and the Taliban. The war lords gladly took money from the US and then took money from AQ and the Taliban to let them go. So much for the foreign policy credentials of the GOP which have always been far overstated, IMHO.
  32. Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: In connection with the argument that a withdrawal would give al Qaeda a base to operate from....Yemen has a large al Qaeda presence. From Yemen fighters and supplies are shipped to Somalia and many other hot spots. From MSNBC, 'Jamal al-Badawi, a Yemeni who helped organize the plot to bomb the USS Cole as it refueled in this Yemeni port on Oct. 12, 2000, has broken out of prison twice. He was recaptured both times, but then secretly released by the government last fall. Yemeni authorities jailed him again after receiving complaints from Washington. But U.S. officials have so little faith that he's still in his cell that they have demanded the right to perform random inspections.'

    MSNBC, May 4, 2008, 'Probe of USS Cole bombing unravels'
    http://tinyurl.com/52j5tk

    Should we invade Yemen too?
  33. Joseph Bloggins from Canada writes: ImaCANADIAN ! from Canada says 'In France, as in Canada, the public is clearly against continuation of the war, but the likes of Sarkozy and Harper ignore their citizens and intently follow Bush.'

    Well, I guess that's one way to look at it. Another way (and far more reasonable) is that the public is profoundly ignorant of the real facts. The public can know nothing about the situation other than what they are being fed by a brain dead and horribly biased media. And so the opinions of the public are formed accordingly....AND incorrectly. To give you a bit of an analogy, it would be like going into a room full of 8 years olds, filling their heads with one idea (and not the other side of the argument), then asking them what they think of the situation. It would come as no surprise to anyone that most of them would probably simply spew the ideas poured into their heads. People like you would then say that the 8 year olds must be right.
  34. Richard Roskell from Canada writes: Gee, Udom. Don't give them any ideas! LOL

    By the way, the London transit bombers were from Yorkshire. If we're going to invade on the al Qaeda pretext, we might as well go somewhere more scenic than Yemen.
  35. He Shoots! He Scores! from Chicago, United States writes: McCain could very well kack soon after taking office and his VP pick would have what insights? The Afghanistan situation only underscores how cynical the Republican backroomers are about the state of their nation.
  36. Gary Dare from Portland, Oregon, Canada, writes: Barrie Collins writes, 'After 9/11, the US bad-mouthed France repeatedly for not immediately joining in the 'War on Terrorism'.' Wrong, that was over the Iraq War. Unfortunately, nearly all Americans (and many Canadians) have been oblivious to France's steady presence in Afghanistan since the post-9/11 invasion (no breaks, like Canada). Besides ISAF, their special forces are part of Operation Enduring Freedom just like our JTF2 and their flag aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle has been rotated in and out to provide CAP. French Mirages also escort USAF F-15E's that carry bunker-buster bombs out of an airbase in Kyrghystan.

    The problem with the Iraq War is that the Bush Administration defocussed the anti-terrorism mission and folks forget that the US and all the NATO allies are in Afghanistan DIRECTLY BECAUSE of 9/11.
  37. Dana Cruickshank from Canada writes: I don't know what staying french has to do with not doing military operations. Some of the posters have mentioned the cowardly Vichy regime in southern France during WWII. What about the fact that the French armies and the french people held of the full might of the German Empire for most of the war. I don't think we can go back into the past of a country and tell if they are cowardly or not, because there are examples of people being both courageous and cowards.

    There is public opinion problems in every country, but to be honest the only country that is ready to fight to no matter what is the US. And their people will fight until we have victory. It might be a dangerous mentality, but something has to be said for it.
  38. jeff franklin from Canada writes:

    'You are my dope, more lethal than Afghan Heroin, more dangerous than Colombian powder', croons Carla Bruni-Sarkozy.

    Oh Dear. Does our current Puritanical Rapturist P.M. know about these lyrics? What will Lauren say?

    More bones lying under the harsh Afghan Sun.

    What a Lovely War.
  39. shane hashmi from Vancouver 2010, Canada writes: Can someone enlighten me with an example from history where a foreign occupation had eventually resulted in elimination of militancy and installation of a true democracy?
  40. Mikey from the GWN ___ from Canada writes: shane hashmi,

    'Can someone enlighten me with an example from history where a foreign occupation had eventually resulted in elimination of militancy and installation of a true democracy?'

    Germany or Japan in 1945

    CHeers

    Mikey
  41. Craig Cooper from Toronto, writes: You'd think after being center stage for World Wars I and II the French wouldn't be so shocked over a couple of photos.
  42. Antonio San from Canada writes: It is easy to comment on the French and the Globe comment section here is widely open while on canadians, it is closed, especially when they come back in plastic bags...

    I read the Paris Match interview of the Talibans and what applies to French troops equally applies to Canadians troops. As despicable as these talibans are, this is their home and they'll fight for it and if history repeats itself will win, regardless of the political stripe of a canadian pm.
  43. Webby 99 from Vancouver, Canada writes:
    della baird from vancouver:

    You bought into the conspiracy theory of the 'Amero'? It's an internet urban legend. People with only cursory economic knowledge think if the Euro exists, then of course it can occur here. Nope. Apples and organges. Take out an economics textbook (or is that part of the conspiracy too?)

    The websites you suggest to a earlier contributer to become 'educated' and to get 'truth research' are all very well known propaganda, conspiracy websites.

    A highway / trade route from Mexico to Winnipeg?? What are they thinking? Oh my god, I just looked on a map - they already have highways from Mexico to Winnipeg. And big ones, with like 4 lanes. The horror, the horror!
  44. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: .......Should we invade Yemen too?

    Udom Thongpai, wrong question. US removed Taliban in 2001. When you get the time machine to go back to 2001, let me know, I have few things to sort out too.

    The question now is shall we stay or abandon. What happened when last time when A-tan was abandoned in 90's.

    Why would you recommend putting A-tan through hell second time, this time knowingly.

    This is not to say that our current approach is correct, there are quite a few things that need to be fixed.
  45. marc auger from Canada writes: ...and in other news, the French have officially changed their flag to all white.
  46. Mark H from Columbus, IN, United States writes: 'shane hashmi from Vancouver 2010, Canada writes: Can someone enlighten me with an example from history where a foreign occupation had eventually resulted in elimination of militancy and installation of a true democracy'

    South Korea?
  47. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: Antonio San from Canada writes:.....As despicable as these talibans are, this is their home and they'll fight for it

    Taliban has many flavour, the real problem for us are the fundamentalist from Pakistan and ME. A-tan is NOT their home. Afghan are the primary targets of this insurgency.

    Go read Amnesty International report, here is a link:

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA11/006/2008/en/a09f845e-33ec-11dd-a097-6931d72158b2/asa110062008eng.html

    Why are these Taliban targetting civilians? All freedom fighters kill enemy, not the people they are supposed to free.

    Or read Sarah Chayes, Perils of delivering aid on Globe and Mail - Afghnistan section. Also read her discussion: 'Sarah Chayes took your questions '
  48. shane hashmi from Vancouver 2010, Canada writes: Mikey from the GWN __ from Canada wrote:

    Germany or Japan in 1945

    CHeers

    Mikey

    _______________________________

    Thanks Mikey. I didn't realize my history was that bad.

    Solution: It would take 2 nuclear bombs (we may have to wait for WW3) to achieve the goal of installing a true democracy and eliminating millitancy in that Afghanistan. While we're at it, we can drop a couple on Iraq... and Iran.
  49. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: Udom Thongpai: Let us see what Human Rights Watch say about improving security in Afghanistan, you would think they have interest of Afghan civilian at heart and have lots of experience with this kind of thing at other places in the world. Their recommendation is to increase ISAF.

    http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/06/10/afghan19086.htm

    Quote from above link:

    In the past six years, cooperation between the Afghan government and international donors has spurred positive developments, such as significant increases in primary school enrollment rates and the holding of presidential and parliamentary elections. However, in the midst of a ongoing civil war, Afghanistan remains mired in insecurity, poverty, widespread human rights abuses, and impunity.

    Most Afghans continue to live in an insecure environment where many of their basic rights remain unfulfilled. Because of a lack of security, in many parts of the country just going to the market, walking to school, or driving to work remains a very dangerous activity. Much of this is because of violence and threats from anti-government forces, particularly the Taliban, but responsibility also lies with warlords, drug lords, and others allied to the Afghan government. Human Rights Watch has long called for more international security forces to create a more secure environment for Afghans to enjoy their basic rights. While there has been a substantial increase in the past year, these forces have been slow in arriving and there are still significant gaps in their presence around the country.
  50. Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: The French have been there, done that. In May 1945 in Algeria, celebrations of the end of the war turned into Independence protests. France responded with a military assault that killed 45,000 Algerians... In March of 1947, the people of Madagascar revolted. The French massacred 89,000... And of course, they still remember their defeat at Dien bien phu in Vietnam in May 1954..... The French lost their romantic idealism and will now only fight if they have to. They don't see war as entertainment.
  51. Popsi Q from kakabeeka falls, Canada writes: The French had an opportunity, like we Canadians did, to 'take over' an area formerly controlled by our pistol-packing allies.

    Like the CF they found a hornets' nest prepared for them and no prospect of assisting the Afghan people, other than continuing to kill them.
  52. John Birch from Canada writes: The problem remains that the US has disbursed its forces by invading Iraq. All US forces should be in Afghanistan, where we know the enemy is, instead of creating new enemies in Iraq.

    Likewise, why hasn't Bin-Laden been apprehended yet? If memory serves, he and his ilk took full responsibility for 911, and it is the 911 attacks that made us join the US in going in in the first place.

    As I've long said, we either need to expand this war into Pakistan's tribal areas -where the Taliban get their training and supplies from, or get our troops out since they will be little more than target practice for the Taliban infiltrating in from the Tribal areas....and it appears that my assessment is correct now that the resurgent Taliban are performing more direct attackes, as evidenced by the deaths of our troops yesterday, and the French dead.
  53. charlie brown from Canada writes: To Deeply concerned citizen from Canada who wrote: 'Good. The more the common people see the horrors of war --less will they tolerate hawkish politicians who are so eager to engage in such conflicts.' The problem with that Deeply is that it should only work when the common people on both sides of an issue see the horrors of war etc. If it applies to only one side, then the other side loses e.g. North Korea, Vietnam, Europe pre-1939 and, if you had your way, Afghanistan.
  54. Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: RO, From Human Rights Watch, 'The Afghan government continues to lose public legitimacy because of widespread corruption, failure to improve living standards, and lack of progress in establishing the rule of law even in areas under its control.'... and 'Women and girls still confront significant barriers to working outside the home and restrictions on their mobility; for example, many still cannot travel without an accompanying male relative and a burqa.'... and 'According to the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission, child labor was widely prevalent throughout the country and ranked alongside insecurity as one of the top reasons for children not attending school.'

    Much more at Human Rights Watch,
    http://tinyurl.com/6btkee
  55. val tonik from toronto, Canada writes: This war...7 years old and still hot. NATO demonstrated its inability to deal with problems efficiently. Now, we are getting use to seeing dead soldiers on almost weekly basis. But, a question- how much longer? Another 7 years perhaps, and hundreds, if not thousands, more dead? Western governments are an 'elite' club that acts according to its own agenda that stands apart form the will of people. Therefore it is not an international community anymore, but one country leading it all and dictating the policies.
  56. steve allan from Canada writes: Sadly this article has one glaring omission - how did these soldiers die? Well I'll tell you how they died - they were bombed by the USAF. That's right another sickening example of so-called friendly fire.

    Read the French press and you'll see how they died. Why go to war with the cowardly Americans as an all when they refuse to deal with the issue that has put the West at odds with the Muslim world - the American support for regimes like the Saudi royal family and the continued blind support for Israel.
  57. charlie brown from Canada writes: To Dana Cruickshank who wrote: 'I don't know what staying french has to do with not doing military operations. Some of the posters have mentioned the cowardly Vichy regime in southern France during WWII. What about the fact that the French armies and the french people held of the full might of the German Empire for most of the war.' Um Dana, the French gave up in 1940 after a few brief weeks fighting the Germans with forces almost equal in strength to each other. They then joined with the Germans and fought in North Africa and the Middle East against the Allies, changing sides again when the tide had turned. Few joined in the Resistance which was a hodge-podge of various groups, including the Communists. Hardly a history of holding the full might of the German Empire for most of the war. Tell that to veterans of the Canadian Forces.
  58. steve allan from Canada writes: Hey Charlie Brown - where did you goto school?

    In 1940, France was alone after the British abandoned them in the middle of the night, not even informing them that they were cutting and running. The French 1st army sacrificed itself in the Dunkirk pocket so the BEF could escape with its tail firmly entrenched between its legs. More than 70,000 were killed in a matter of days.

    Having an opinion, as wrong and as sickening as it is, doesn't entitled you to spew nonsense that is not backed by historical facts.
  59. A M from Montreal, Canada writes: 'Can someone enlighten me with an example from history where a foreign occupation had eventually resulted in elimination of militancy and installation of a true democracy?'

    Germany or Japan in 1945

    CHeers

    Mikey...

    mey mikey... incase you you're blind... BMW, MERCEDES, VW, AUDI, TOYOTA, HONDA, NISSAN, you want me to continue? you think Germany and Japan aren't occupying our world today... wake up buddy... you're living in a dream world... war doesn't solve problems... and its people like you that cause them... you probably think that Nuclear weapons are the final response to end all wars... food for thought... nuclear bombs were only the beginning...

    you should read Master Sun Tzu's art of war... maybe that can enlighten your rather dark and dull little world...

    Cheers

    Alex
  60. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: Udom Thongpai from Victoria, I was also looking at some other HRW reports. I agree with you that there are problems in A-tan, the question is what is the best way to solve them. Removing ISAF would not be a good solution, IMHO. We have experience of 90's to see what would happen if UN sanctioned force is removed. The other key ingradient here is action of Pakistan. Also, action of fundamentalist troublemakers from ME. Hhere is a HRW Backgrounder on Afghanistan: History of the War.

    http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/asia/afghan-bck1023.htm#The%20Second%20Phase
  61. Ron Bourgeois from Vancouver, Canada writes: To Ted Andrews and all of similar yoke! The people pf Afghanistan deserve their freedom from the Taliban and their Inquisition mentality. if you value our freedoms and democracy, you will understand why NATO and the UN are there.

    Also, to beat the Taliban, duh! 18 months ago all the pundits equestioned the Surge in Iraq; it was suppose to the the 2008 elction issue. Well guess what , John McCain was right.

    France has a courageous leader in Sarkozy. Their justice minister is an Algerian born muslim woman who is his close ally in the Aghan mission. They deserve our support not cowardly left-wing retreatism.
  62. John Birch from Canada writes: Charlie Brown re:Cruickshank;

    I believe that Cruikshank may be referring to WWI, where the Yankees sat out the first 3/4's of the war while the rest of the world smacked heads in the trenches.

    On the other hand, you should read about the French Expeditionary Corps in italy in '43/'44. they were the only effective force that broke the Cassino stalemate and alleviated the Americans, brits and Canadians stuck Anzio.

    The problem with france and Britain at the beginning of WWII was that they were both well-prepared to fight the previous war...however, the French were the ones who had a common border with Germany, and that is why they were forced out of the war so quickly.

    besides, the dutch were worse for their resistance measures, at least earlier in the war.
  63. Bruce MacDonald from Montreal, Canada writes: Isn't is time to take off the gloves? The taliban doesn't follow the Geneva Convention or any other war-time authority. So, I suggest pure counter-terrorism--no prisoners and an Israeli move--make the immediate family of a taliban member suffer consequences such as bull-dozed homes.
    However, those who want to contribute to a well-meaning Afghan society should be recognized and rewarded.
    Make the taliban the criminals not the outlaws fighting imperialism or anti-Islamists.
  64. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: val tonik from toronto, Canada writes: ......Western governments are an 'elite' club that acts according to its own agenda that stands apart form the will of people.

    Western governments are elected representative of people. Next Canadian election is round the corner, please make sure you VOTE this TIME.

    IF Obama wins US election, expect more boots on ground in A-tan.

    Pakistan Military and ISI are the 'elite' club, they created the problem of Taliban in A-tan. ME countries are not democracy, they sent their troublemakers to A-tan. BLAME THOSE.
  65. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: _ Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes:.....Much more at Human Rights Watch, http://tinyurl.com/6btkee _

    Here are some quotes from the link you gave.

    Quotes: Anti-government forces also routinely violate the laws of war by launching attacks from civilian areas, or retreating to such areas, knowingly drawing return fire.....The Taliban began using anti-personnel mines in Helmand province again, complicating efforts to eradicate mines from one of the most mine-infested countries in the world......Stymied by NATO from establishing clear control over more territory, in particular larger urban centers, anti-government groups carried out a record number of suicide bombings and attacks on civilian targets......The Taliban increasingly relied on public executions to terrorize and rule populations living in areas under their influence. They carried out at least 28 beheadings, several of them filmed and broadcast on the internet....The Taliban targeted humanitarian aid workers, journalists, doctors, religious leaders, and civilian government employees, condemning them as spies or collaborators. In June they publicly hanged four elders in Helmand province because they were perceived as cooperating with NATO forces. Insurgent groups killed at least 34 aid workers in Afghanistan in 2007......At this writing, anti-government groups have kidnapped at least 41 Afghan civilians in 2007 and killed at least 23 of them.....As part of their campaign of terrorizing the civilian population, the Taliban target schools, and in particular girls’ schools—the government reported that insecurity shut down 450 schools throughout the country, including 40 percent of schools in the south. On June 12, Taliban killed two schoolgirls in front of a girls’ school in Logar......While the number of girls in school increased quickly after the Taliban’s ouster in 2001, only one-third of school-age girls attended school in 2007.....
  66. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: Udom Thongpai...more quote from same link you gave...more I read more I get to understand why HRW recommends putting more ISAF forces on ground. Hopefully Obama wins and follows through on his promise to do that.

    Quote:Key International Actors Despite a strong UN mandate, Afghanistan’s chief international supporters continue to dither over their role and responsibilities in Afghanistan. The existing military, political, and economic resources are poorly coordinated. There is no coherent mechanism for assisting civilians injured or displaced by NATO forces. One sign of this is that, five years after the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) was created, there are not nearly enough UNAMA human rights monitors.

    Taking into account Afghanistan’s population and size, the 40,000 NATO and US-led coalition forces in the country are a small fraction of the security forces deployed in other recent post-conflict areas like the Balkans and Timor-Leste. Many are limited by national laws to comparatively safe areas in Afghanistan or cannot act to protect ordinary Afghans adequately. Despite significant overlap between NATO and the European Union, the international security effort in Afghanistan has been hobbled by insufficient resources and the failure to effectively address the security concerns of the Afghan population.
  67. Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: RO, I don't see it as all or nothing. There was a point about a year ago when a deal could have been reached with the Taliban for limited autonomy in the south. (True this could lead to eventual partition, but that may be the only way stop the killing) We could always bomb the daylights out of them if they give al Qaeda refuge... But clearly, what we are doing now is not working. At this point endless war is not the solution to the problem, it IS the problem.

    With Russia's Gazprom taking control of Turkmenistan's resources and the demise of american plans to use Georgia as a base to threaten Iran, the americans will be forced to make a deal with the Iranians. The war in Afghanistan will then become superfluous. Afghans will be left to their fate and the spotlight will move on.
  68. Cranky Old Guy from Canada writes: Bruce MacDonald from Montreal, Canada writes: ... So, I suggest pure counter-terrorism--no prisoners and an Israeli move--make the immediate family of a taliban member suffer consequences such as bull-dozed homes.

    And that's worked well - look at how peaceful it is in Israel, and the recruiting problems the Palestinians are having. I'm not aware of a situation where state terrorism as a response to terrorism was an effective long term solution.
  69. Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: RO... Obama, McCain, two heads on the same body. After the election you get realpolitik.
  70. Mickey Hickey from Toronto, Canada writes: Afghanistan is not an opera and France will leave the claque supporting the US in a war that will certainly not benefit the Afghans, Canadians or Europeans. The Taliban had control over and their rule of law in force in over 90% of the country before they were so rudely interrupted by a country addicted to increasing their supply of fossil fuels. Afghanistan is not a threat to anybody except itself. It is most certainly not a threat to Canada or Europe. Instead of going after the perpetrators of 9/11 they occupy and terrorize a whole country. Too cowardly to go after Saudi Arabia, lets find an Asian Panama, Nicaragua, Granada and sock it to them, that will give the US lunatic fringe a feeling of satisfaction and lead to re-election. Canada should withdraw now, we do not need to make enemies unnecessarily.
  71. B.C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: Random O from GTA, Canada writes: Western governments are elected representative of people. Next Canadian election is round the corner, please make sure you VOTE this TIME.

    I'm not sure it's really in our best interest for Val Tonik to vote.

    By the way, Random, how did you incorporate the HTML tags? Opening tag in your first name, closing tag in your last? I tried that and one of the brackets was incorporated into my username.
  72. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: RO, I don't see it as all or nothing. ....

    Udom Thongpai, I agree with you. We usually call them Taliban, but they have many subgroups. Some of these are 'freedom fighters". Karzai was in talks with some Taliban factions last year to bring them into democratic process. I hope those factions will take part in the next years election and remove that component from Taliban.

    That will leave drug-lords, fundamentalist hardliners, and non-Afghan element.
  73. val tonik from toronto, Canada writes: Yes, yes, we've heard these horror stories and we also know who established this organization-Taliban and why. So that cannot serve as any justification for further war and destruction. How many more civilians and soldiers were killed since the start of this war- 7 years ago? My question is- how much longer, how many more?

    You see no other solution to a conflict as another war at any cost. That's the feeling the so-called "elected" governments want people to have- feelings of fear and hate. And that's the kind of world we have therefore, where there is no more international law, respect and cooperation, the world where war is the only solution acted out of fear of some half-real barbarians hiding in caves. (that could be anyone, except NATO members of course). Attempt manipulation of human consciousness is the worst kind of crime.
  74. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: Mickey Hickey from Toronto, Canada is part of UN sanctioned ISAF. This was AFTER US removed Taliban from power.
  75. Rick Splick from Canada writes: Everyone knows France is a fair weather friend.
  76. steve allan from Canada writes: ----John Birch from Canada writes - On the other hand, you should read about the French Expeditionary Corps in italy in '43/'44. they were the only effective force that broke the Cassino stalemate and alleviated the Americans, brits and Canadians stuck Anzio.------

    Ah yes, Gustav. No, not the hurricane but the defensive line. Juin's FEC broke the Gustav line in May of 1944 and that opened up all of Italy and sent the Germans scurrying north. The Americans thought, as they do today, that they could break through by bombing the Germans from the air. Big mistake. The French did it but it was on the ground...where wars are won.

    It's amazing but the Americans still haven't learned the lessons of history...or more likely, they are not a people who like to suffer casualties and like to do wars the easy way. Well there is no easy way to win a war, that has always been the case.

    Do people actually think the Americans have the toughness to stick it out and continue to take casualties? Eventually they will tire of it and abandon Canada and the rest of the allies in Afghanistan and the day that happens you are going to have a lot of people who will feel betrayed. But don't expect the Americans to lose any sleep over that!
  77. Billy Talon from Toronto, Canada writes: Ron Bourgeois from Vancouver, Canada writes: To Ted Andrews and all of similar yoke! The people pf Afghanistan deserve their freedom from the Taliban and their Inquisition mentality. if you value our freedoms and democracy, you will understand why NATO and the UN are there.

    Also, to beat the Taliban, duh! 18 months ago all the pundits equestioned the Surge in Iraq; it was suppose to the the 2008 elction issue. Well guess what , John McCain was right.

    ***

    Was it the surge or was it the US paying off the Sunni's? Guess it doesn't matter to you.

    We need more troops in Afghanistan if we are ever going to make any serious headway.
  78. Just A Guy from Canada writes: Oh France. Comic relief on the world stage.
  79. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: val tonik from toronto, Canada writes: Yes, yes, we've heard these horror stories and we also know who established this organization-Taliban and why. So that cannot serve as any justification for further war and destruction. How many more civilians and soldiers were killed since the start of this war- 7 years ago? My question is- how much longer, how many more?......... Attempt manipulation of human consciousness is the worst kind of crime.

    If you "heard the horror stories", that would make you underage to vote. So that option is NOT available to you.

    As to how much longer......this is not a hockey match or a video game. In real life, your opponent does his best to NOT cooperate with you. But so far Canada's committment is till 2011, and it would need a vote by our elected members to extend it. So how about you focus on getting that vote.

    As to "Attempt manipulation of human consciousness....."...WOW.
  80. William Thompson from Cobourg, Canada writes: Dana Cruickshank states "the French army & people held off the Germans for the majority of the war" In what war? It wasn't WW1 or WW2.
    France fell in a couple of days and was occupied by the Germans until D-Day and thereafter in WW2. DeGaulle left the country in exile.
    Have you not heard of the Vichy government and French Nazi sympathizers?
    The Maquis (Resistance) were the only ones who openly fought the Germans,the rest of the population kept a low profile with a few exceptions
    The French army's contribution to it's own defence was not impressive.
    For Sale ..French Army rifle for sale......never fired in anger and only dropped once .
  81. Random O from GTA, Canada writes: .C. Expat from Ottawa-Hull, NCR, Canada writes: Random O ....By the way, Random, how did you incorporate the HTML tags? Opening tag in your first name, closing tag in your last? I tried that and one of the brackets was incorporated into my username.

    Yes I have open tag in first name and closing tag in last name, somehow it worked for me. Do you have the colour in double quotes("). If so try without the quotes or try single quotes ('). That shoud work.
  82. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Sure, we can pull out - and then not just the Taliban but Al'Qaida would have free reign in Pakistan as well as Afghanistan - an potentially access to Pakistan's nuclear weapons! Recently ran across a book titled Women of Courage - the stories of 40 women in Afghanistan and their lives today compared to under the Taliban. Women who had professions that they could not work in while the Taliban were in control - pilots, educators, paratroopers, police officers. Their stories help illustrate why our courageous troops continue to volunteer to return to Afghanistan.

    Islam today is not just a religion - for some it is a political ideology that is being spread around the world by countries like Saudi Arabia and other members of the Organization of Islamic Countries. Thanks to their efforts, earlier this year the UN Human Rights Council banned criticism regarding Sharia law and human rights in the Islamic world. This is the underpinning of Al'Qaida and their fellow global jihadists.
  83. Catherine Medernach from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Cpl Andrew Grenon, who was on his second tour in Afghanistan when he was killed this week wrote a poem during his 2006 tour of duty in Afghanistan entitled "Why We Fight:" "I've often asked myself why we are here. Why my government actually agreed to send troops to this God-forsaken place. "There are no natural resources. No oil, gold, or silver. Just people. "People who have been at war for the last 40 plus years. People who want nothing more than their children to be safe. People who will do anything for money; even give their own life. "I look into the eyes of these people. I see hate, destruction and depression. I see love, warmth, kindness and appreciation. "Why do we fight? For in this country, there are monsters. Monsters we could easily fight on a different battlefield, at a different time. Monsters that could easily take the fight to us. "Surrounding these mud walls and huts is a country in turmoil. A country that is unable to rebuild itself. A country that cannot guarantee a bright future for its youth. "Why do we fight? Because, if we don't fight today, on THIS battlefield, then our children will be forced to face these monsters on our own battlefield. "I fight because I'm a soldier. "I fight because I'm ordered. "I fight, so my children won't have to."
  84. Udom Thongpai from Victoria, Canada writes: RO, If the Taliban are not allowed to participate, it will be a show election, mere window dressing.

    Incidentally, it was not Karzai I was referring to as having been in peace negotiations with the Taliban, but the americans. The talks took place in Quetta, Pakistan in August 2007. If memory serves, one of the prime US demands was the removal of Mullah Omar as leader. The Taliban thought they had a deal but the US backed out. I found one of the articles from the time, "Taliban, US in new round of peace talks" August 21, 2007,
    Asia Times, http://tinyurl.com/57zcyj
    • Posted 04/09/08 at 3:30 PM EST |