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Tory's ‘recession' threat based on old numbers

STEVEN CHASE

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 12:12 PM EST 12/09/08

Research underpinning Conservative warnings about Green Shift is outdated and doesn't include Liberal income tax cuts because Harper doesn't believe Dion will enact them ...Read the full article

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  1. Darryl Moore from Canada writes: ABC
  2. bill short from Niagara, Canada writes: What exactly have you built in the last 2 years Harper? Except the the unemployment rate that is.
  3. The Man Behind The Curtain from United States writes: Put Canada in a recession.......Harper already achieved that almost, hence the early election before it 'technically' become a real recession.

    And of course he doesn't mention his 'Turn The Corner' carbon tax plan of $65/ton with nothing to help people (as opposed to Dion's $40/ton carbon tax and income tax reductions to people and businesses).

    What a fool.

    And putting more power and money into the federal government hands is diametricallly opposed to that Harper wants to do so he can destroy Canada, it's not surprising he's so fearful.
  4. Erik Sorenson from Aylmer, Canada writes: @DarrylMoore: ABC = Anything But Carbontax.

    @bill Short: 1. A military, from a running joke under the Liberals who, remember, put our troops in Afghanistan in the first place. 2. Out of Kyoto, another empty political ploy of the Liberals and their do-nothing, hapless Environment Minister namerd (wait for it) Dion! 3. Our pocket books, after being raped, looted and pillaged by Liberals, who want to do it all over again with the Green Shaft (to Canadian Wallets). That's just for starters.
  5. D. C. from Ottawa, Canada writes: Harper isn't really saying the Green Shift will cause a recession (even though that may have been the words that came form his mouth), he's playing chess, tossing out a bit of unsubstantiated fear-mongering and setting up the excuse he will want to be able to use after the election to deflect the accusations about the Conservative mismanagment of the Canadian economy that caused the recession (the one we are on the cusp of falling into).

    Get with it folks. Harper is not black and white. He's the quintessential example of the old joke 'How can you tell when a politician is lieing? Ans. Whenever his lips move.'

    Harper, Step down for Canada.
  6. Mike........ Just Mike from toronto, Canada writes: So if the green shift will put is in a recession, which it wouldn't, what is your plan harper? Oh you have none. Let me guess though the economists whom agree and support the green shift are all wrong right? Just like the economists whom where opposed to your gst cut. Everyone is wrong except of course steve.
  7. ByB ImYmI from Canada writes: ..//

    CO2 is fertilizer. It helps plants grow so we can eat and benefit from their Oxygen production.

    A Carbon tax is tax on the air plants breath.

    ..//
  8. ah sails from Canada writes: Let's see, Harpo has taken us from a healthy budget surplus under years of Liberal guidance to our first deficits in years under his Con incompetence, are he and flatulence really qualified to even address economic issues after driving the Canadian economy into the ground ?
  9. Brian C from Canada writes:
    To bill short who writes: 'What exactly have you built in the last 2 years Harper? Except the the unemployment rate that is. '

    You might want to recheck your facts. The unemployment rate is near historic lows, and has even gone down since Harper took over. And the employment numbers are still going up.

    http://www.statcan.ca/english/Subjects/Labour/LFS/lfs-en.htm
  10. Paul N from Wellington County, Canada writes: The carbon tax is going to punish rural Canada, who rely more heavily on heating oil for their homes, and like it or not, buy more gasoline as they drive more. The balance of the benefits of the carbon tax will go to the cities, and once again, rural Canada takes one for the team.

    No wonder Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal vote Liberal, and the rest of Canada votes Conservative.
  11. david sandford from vancouver, Canada writes: We already are on the verge of a recession...looks like the Conservatives are more than capable of accomplishing that with the Green Shift..
  12. NikolaTesla -the genius who lit the world from Calgary, Canada writes: Many economists and economists have endorsed the idea of a carbon tax, but Mr. Harper says it's too great a risk.

    And Mr. Harper by that logic what is your tax of $65/ton gonna do?

    Dion plans to tax Carbon at $40/ton, Mr. Harper plans to tax Carbon at $65/ton.

    Dion will cut your income tax, Mr. Harper has no incentives to help Canadians out with his new tax .

    All Parties are going to tax carbon, so who has the best Carbon tax?
  13. Barry Turner from Ottawa, Canada writes: We're only a few days into the campaign and Harper has already resorted to desperation strategy. Next he'll be saying Dion is an emissary of the devil and the Green Shift is an evil plot to crush mankind with an excessive tax burden. Or maybe, 'you can put lipstick on this tax revenue hog but in the morning, it's still a pig'. Or did Obama use that already.
  14. Mike........ Just Mike from toronto, Canada writes: Paul N. What about all the savings that Rural people will get from their income tax cuts which will offset any rise in the price of gas and heating oil etc? Listen it's not a perfect plan but it's a start and unlike harpo, Dion is willing to listen and change things if need be. Like he did in regards to diesel etc. He was addressing the very issue of rural Canadians.
  15. NikolaTesla -the genius who lit the world from Calgary, Canada writes: Erik Sorenson - You are aware that the Liberals were starting to build up the Military again are you not?

    Also i would add that under a Liberal Government, Canadians received the largest tax cut in Canadian history, so much for your theories, just more Conservative misinformation and lies.
  16. Chris Halford from Ottawa, Canada writes: I agree with the majority of the posters here, Harper has built nothing and destroyed much. The economists are on-side for a carbon tax. I think that Dion's plan needs a lot of detailed work to avoid unfairly targetting farmers, transportation, et al and how the money is raised is redistributed. He needs to get more flexible about changes to the plan but teh basic concept is sound.

    Paul N - 'No wonder Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal vote Liberal, and the rest of Canada votes Conservative.' That's both simplistic and wrong.
  17. Western Clods from Canada writes: Like it or not, the Western world is about to undertake an energy revolution, and Canada had better keep up or get left behind.

    Even the Republicans are at least talking some of the talk about reducing dependence on carbon fuels over time, and recognizing it as a sovereignty issue.

    What do we get from Harper? Weak-kneed industrial self-regulation and MORE, not less dependence on oil.

    Harper will run this great country into the ground.
  18. Liberals are OK ............. If you cook em long enough from Canada writes:

    Let me tell you how it will be,

    No fuel for you, lots of cash for me,

    ‘Cos it’s a tax, man,

    Disguised as a green plan.

    My plan doesn't appeal to all,

    Not even my own Li-ber-als.

    ‘Cos it’s a tax, man,

    Disguised as a green plan.

    If you heat your home, I’ll tax the air,

    If you buy food, I’ll tax you there,

    If you dig for oil, I’ll tax the ground,

    If you complain, I’ll tax your sounds.

    Tax, man.

    ‘Cos it’s a tax, man,

    Disguised as a green plan.

    You know what we want it for

    The Liberals are taxing wh0res

    ‘Cos it’s a tax, man,

    Disguised as a green plan.

    Some advice for those who still get by - tax, man!

    You better to learn to hunt to sustain your kind - tax, man!

    ‘Cos it’s a tax, man,

    Disguised as a green plan.

    And I’ll tax you back to the Stone Age,

    Tax, man.
  19. BeerBelly Buddah from Wpg, Canada writes: Holy-Moly, did I read this correctly?

    'Mr. Harper ... says the carbon tax will undermine more than just the economy... [it will] concentrate money and power in Ottawa, and undermine national unity.'

    We know what he is really saying here... don't we? He is acknowledging that a carbon tax would inconveniently place restrictions on Alberta capital who, under his watch, have been able to operate with impunity in the tar-sands. He is not concerned with national unity. He is questioning the very right of a FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to regulate a socially irresponsible industry.

    Harper is, and always has been, an Albertan first - A Canadian second.

  20. Don Adams, the Conservative Centrist from Canada writes: Bill Short. Here's what the Cons have accomplished: Tax cuts.... GST down to 5 % from 7% New Child Tax Credit worth $2000 for every child under 18 End to the Marriage penalty with an increase in the Spousal Amount Pension splitting for retired couples Automatic prison terms for serious weapons offenses tougher jail terms and fines for drunk and drug impaired drivers Tougher bail provisions for dangerous offenders Tough new punishments for street racing Broader pwoers for courts to detain Dangerous young offenders Cutting waste...a winding down of the billion $$ long gun registry fiasco. An end to the tax[ayer funded prison tattoo program $200 million invested in more police and more prosecutors $ 100 million invested in strengthening border security Monthly $100 child care benefit paid directly to ALL parents $250 million invested in helping create new child care spaces $ 500 Children's fitness tax credit to help with the costs of sports registration fees. a new textbook tax credit to help with the costs of college and university textbooks a total tax shelter for university and clooege scholarships and bursaries a new registered disability savings plan to help parents save tax free an increased and expanded child disability benefit And the LIEbbies say the Cons have done nothing for Canada and Canadians :-( LIEberals = LIARS
  21. Mark Peters from NS, writes: No, Chris Halford, the carbon tax is simplistic and wrong, both from an economic and ideological perspective. ANY policy crafted around the myth of anthropogenic global warming should be trashed.
  22. Scott Wicks from Canada writes:

    Well duh... We're already in a recession, no thanks to neo-com voodoo economics.

    And the Reform-a-tories are doing their level best to punish central and eastern Canada with fiscal policies that are making the recession worse than it needs to be.

    Harper is really grasping at straws here.

    It is reassuring to see that despite being flush with cash and able to launch a full scale media assault the right-wingers have stalled. They are not steamrollering anybody and are looking pretty lame about now.

    Any bets that the gamble Harper took on forcing this phony election is starting to look a really bad idea?

    Well, maybe a bad idea for the Reform Party, but a really good break or Canada.
  23. D. C. from Ottawa, Canada writes: I realise it's still early in the day, but.... In todays Stupidest Comment contest, the current leader is....

    ByB ImYmI for his insightful observation 'A Carbon tax is tax on the air plants breath.''

    We heard yesterday that Steven Harper is a Fruit, so it's likely he would take this very seriously.
  24. Marc S from Canada writes: My morning laugh !!! Harper is predicting the economy !!!! lol......This from the man who took the best economy in the G8 for the last ten years or so and turned it, in LESS THAN 3 YEARS, into the least productive in the consortium. I wonder why Harper 'forgets' to mention these little facts when he's blathering his crap at the electorate.
  25. p lailey from vancouver, Canada writes: 'Many economists and economists have endorsed the idea of a carbon tax, but Mr. Harper says it's too great a risk.'

    I'm not sure what this sentence means. Apart from the reduncancy, are there also many economists who don't support it? Do a majority of economists support it? Given the difference in economists' views on most issues I'm sure you can make the abaove statement for most proposals.
  26. Mike M from Canada writes: Western Clods from Canada writes: Like it or not, the Western world is about to undertake an energy revolution, and Canada had better keep up or get left behind.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is fearmongering in the worst and completely inaccurate. As long as Canada has oil, water, nuclear know-how, mining, and many other natural resources, Canada will not be left behind as part of an energy revolution. Nevermind the fact that Canada's geography is perhaps best situated to deal with global warming, so we'll have that advantage as well.

    Furthermore, as long as China, India, and the US are in-line with what Canada does, we will not have any difficulties finding trading partners, energy revolution or no.

    A case can be made for the carbon tax, but a case cannot be made that without introducing one, Canada will be left in economic hardship.
  27. G. Veneta from Calgary, Canada writes: Um, aren't we already in a recession? Chicken little. The sky is falling the sky is falling. Let's do nothing but watch energy prices go through the roof with conventional sources. It's too tough to do anything so let's just give up.

    The real culture of defeatism is right there in the conservative party. We can't do anything waaaaaaaaaaaaa......waaaaa.

    Time to act was yesterday not 2050. I'm looking forward to my income tax cuts and am willing to pay for my carbon. It's time we all did for our children's and grandchildren's futures.

    To just sit back and do nothing is simply not an option.
  28. F. Wm. Woodward from Calgary, Canada writes: Mr Dion should have looked at what Mr Campbells carbon tax is doing for him.
  29. active reader from toronto, Canada writes: the time for listening to Harpo's fear mongering and LIES must come to an end.

    green shift over the blue shaft anyday!

    http://trustbreaker.freehostia.com/
  30. p lailey from vancouver, Canada writes: Looks like Dion should start applying for his old job as a professor according to Don Martin's column today:
    'The Liberal party moved last night to cancel its biennial convention in Vancouver in December, clearing the way for a full leadership vote next year should Stephane Dion fail win the Oct. 14 election.'
  31. spicydoc of the spring from Canada writes:

    Some Dion-lovers say 'At least Dion has a plan!! Where is Harper's plan??'

    Other Dion-lovers talk about how Harper's plan will cost $65 a ton, with no tax cuts.

    Which is it, Dion-lovers?? Does Harper have a plan or not??

    Do you even know??

    Didn't think so.

    At least we know who the ignoranti are voting for.
  32. John Gzowski from Canada writes: i think we have a competitor for stupidest comment of the day.

    Mark Peters from NS, writes: ANY policy crafted around the myth of anthropogenic global warming should be trashed.

    Nice to know that scientific consensus = myth making
    Peters probably believes that cigarettes are good for you, creationism = science and that Harper really is Canada's Mr Rogers.

    I truly hope he is not representative of all Tories.
  33. active reader from toronto, Canada writes: spicydoc of the spring from Canada writes:
    At least we know who the ignoranti are voting for.
    *****************************************

    Yeah...this guy: http://trustbreaker.freehostia.com/
  34. Roger Gagne from Calgary, Canada writes: As Peter Parker used to say, 'Oh, my stars and garters!' I think something over 50% of the posts I see so far this morning regarding this article are in favor of a carbon tax of some description! So, as some of my fellow Calgarians would say, 'Yeehaw!'

    As I watch the way Albertans use electricity (most of it from coal-fired plants), gasoline, and natural gas, it is apparent that all of them are too cheap. After decades of access to cheap, abundant fossil fuels, we have become incredibly thoughtless and wasteful. There are numerous benefits to trimming the fat, and one of them would be to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. The 'polluter pays' principle implicit in the carbon tax will encourage greater mindfulness in our energy use, nudging us along in practicing energy conservation, energy efficiency, and increased use of renewable energy.
  35. Not the Alliance from In my opinion, The Harper Gov't is totally Incompetent, but excel at whining that it's ALWAYS somebody else's fault., Canada writes: It's going to be another minority gov't - so it doesn't really matter. There will be NO environmental plan from any ONE party or even a combined plan (cherry picking the best aspects) until the dysfunction in Ottawa is gone and that won't be any time soon, so long as these bozo's are the leaders.
  36. Jake Skiffington from Ottawa, Canada writes: Funny, I thought Harper already had triggered a recession with his wild mismanagement of the economy...
  37. Elvin Johnson from Canada writes: I do agree that a national carbon tax would cause problems for national unity since the provinces' economies are so different. However, it's interesting that Harper must be proposing that provinces be treated differently, depending the province's circumstances could be allowed to continue to increase its pollution levels. That policy sounds like it has the same problems as Kyoto.
  38. Kerry H from Toronto, Canada writes: Harper your an idiot..
  39. G. Veneta from Calgary, Canada writes: Seems to me it's neocon voodoo economic policies on the continent that trigger recessions. The rich get richer while the masses suffer and bail out the scoundrels.

    All squawk no substance. Why does this man always have to lie? Desperation perhaps?
  40. Thomas D'Arcy McGee from Canada writes:
    Steve Harpoon sez:

    ''I tell you that this new tax on carbon is going to destroy all that our government has built in the last two and a half years,'
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A shriveled budget surplus, gutted social programmes, a carbon release rate that leads the world, a divided country, a betrayed fixed electio terms law, an embarassing foreign policy, an overstretched, underfunded, ill-equiped millitary, and a keystone kops kabinet that makes George Bush's fiasco look sophisticated ?

    Bring on the Carbon Tax!
  41. Sam B from ABC - anything but conservative, Canada writes: Harper has plans:

    Critize and puffin your opponents.
    Pray the Palin effect shine light up north, so you can tar-sand your way south.
    Bring home troops from Afghanistan by 2011 as acknowledgement to Taliban threats.
    Break your own fixed election date laws to bing in another minority.

    We deserve better!!!
  42. Thomas D'Arcy McGee from Canada writes:
    D. C. from Ottawa, Canada writes: I realise it's still early in the day, but.... In todays Stupidest Comment contest, the current leader is....

    'ByB ImYmI for his insightful observation 'A Carbon tax is tax on the air plants breath.''
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ByB is a multiple times winner and current 'Stupidest Comment Of The Day' champion, and unlikely to be dethroned anytime soon.
  43. Kerry H from Toronto, Canada writes: Lets face it. A conservative cares for only one thing and one thing only.. Themselves... They do not care about the enviroment, the poor, medicare, or Canadian culture for that matter.. They are a greedy selfish group of people. The only thing a conservative cares avout is how much money are you going to save me.. They do not care about what kind of country will be left for our children.. It is all about self gratification.. What can you do for me Now!!
    Anyone who has voted Liberal in the past who is now supporting this poor excuse for a human being (Harper) should be ashamed of yourselves. Remember.. This is not the USA..(Yet) this is Canada.. and in Canada we vote for a Party not a man..
  44. jack sprat from Canada writes: Harper is changing his tune every day on every policy.

    And what has he done in last 2 years - record government spending, lost manufacturing with no assistance for 10 months (at first it was 'we don't pick winners and losers', then he gives gajillions to auto industry 9 months later when his MP's job is at risk). Canada at brink of recession WITH Harper.

    And if he says Dion's plan will drive into a recession at $40/ton carbon, how does Harper avoid recession at $65/ton:

    Conservatives will tax carbon at $65/ton, Liberals at $40/ton. Conservative plan will raise natural gas prices 2% and electricity 4%, while reducing the GDP by .4% (this is in the Harper plan). The Liberal plan will also raise energy prices a similar amount, but drop corporate taxes to prevent an economic hit. The one really big difference: $9 billion in personal tax cuts and another $4 billion in help for seniors, low incomes and rural folks in the Dion plan plus the benefit of revenue to put towards forward thinking green initiatives that will stimulate the economy and create new jobs......
  45. Not the Alliance from In my opinion, The Harper Gov't is totally Incompetent, but excel at whining that it's ALWAYS somebody else's fault., Canada writes: Seriously Harper supporters - what has Harper 'built' in 2.5 years?

    More to the point: Would you really want anything 'built' by Harper when the foundation is made up of deceptions and lies?
  46. Bobby Dy from Canada writes: What a liar, if this level of a carbon tax would trigger a recession, we'd have seen a major contraction in the economy already from the massive increase in energy prices that we have seen over the past year. What will trigger the long term deterioration of the economy is Harper's current policies. Harper's motto 'Short term gain for long term pain'.
  47. What's up with the un-human -like gap between Harper's eyes? from Calgary, Canada writes: .

    FEAR!!!!

    The only way right-wingers can get any votes.

    FEAR!!!!

    RECESSION - 9/11 - TERRRORISM

    Problems created by right-wing governments who then try to sell us the idea that they are the best to prevent them....
  48. Thomas D'Arcy McGee from Canada writes:
    Harpoon sez:

    '...Dion's proposed carbon tax would plunge Canada into a recession'.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Too late Steve-o! Your policies already have Canada in a recession!

    But it's not too late to blame it all on Dion!

    I believe that Dion's proposed Carbon Tax also caused the listeria outbreak, the current stock market malaise, Jim Flaherty's short stature and the failure of the Leafs to win a Cup since 1967.
  49. vid ingelevics from Canada writes: What utter bs. The big lie suits Harper because he is shameless. It seems to come naturally to him. Why should anyone believe him? Fixed election dates, anyone?

    It is in fact Harper who has already made Canada vulnerable to a recession with his reckless cutting of the GST. Some economist he is.
  50. Kerry H from Toronto, Canada writes: Thomas D'Arcy McGee from Canada writes: ByB is a multiple times winner and current 'Stupidest Comment Of The Day' champion, and unlikely to be dethroned anytime soon

    Sorry Thomas.. I think Harper has won that title everyday that he has opened his mouth. can someone please tell this fat GEEK in bad sweaters to shut up.. Please
  51. Joseph Freeman from Vancouver, Canada writes: And how did Harper gain this insight into the factors that lead to recession? Hmmm, let's ponder that for a moment.

    I see he lost the sweater for today's tough guy tantrum.
  52. active reader from toronto, Canada writes: Not the Alliance from In my opinion, The Harper Gov't is totally Incompetent, but excel at whining that it's ALWAYS somebody else's fault., Canada writes: It's going to be another minority gov't - so it doesn't really matter.
    ***************************

    I wouldnt be so sure about that...the CONS lead significantly in the polls and with the spread of votes between the Liberal, Green and NDP he will come up strongly through the middle. IT IS TERRIFYING AND TRUE. A MAJORITY IS WITHIN HIS GRASP!

    The only choice to stop him...like it or not, is the Liberals. They have spent enough time in the penalty box..we have punished them for getting too comfy at being the leaders...they have cleaned alot of the house out...time to let them back and show they learned their lesson.

    This country has never been prosperous and respected when under the CONS control.

    http://trustbreaker.freehostia.com/
  53. Geoffrey May from Canada writes: GreenParty Vision Green plan doesn't create new taxes, it creates new ways of taxing .Instead of taxing what we want , it taxes what we waste, along with a host of new programs and plans.Read it a www.greenparty.ca
  54. Crusty Curmudgeon from Ottawa, Canada writes:

    Kerry H -- the word is 'you're'.

    Now, what were you saying?

    Honestly all I hear when Mr. Dion speaks is 'blah, blah, blah, blah blah, blah, blah'.

    Could someone please give this man some lessons in presentation skills -- please -- it is just too painful. Oh, and an actual working plan (as opposed to a discussion paper on how to trust the LIEberals) would be helpful as well. Without that my translation is:

    'We will tax you, put the money into the general revenue stream, give you back 1 cent on the dollar and then take the other $0.99 and give it to our advertisng friends (they are entitled to their entitlements too) to spin how great our plan is/was'.
  55. Johnny Test from Pork Belly, Canada writes: vid ingelevics from Canada writes: What utter bs.

    It is in fact Harper who has already made Canada vulnerable to a recession with his reckless cutting of the GST. Some economist he is.

    Huh? The GST is a consumption tax. Increasing the GST during a recession is the worst thing you can do. Remember when economists were telling Mulroney to hold off on the GST implementation before the last recession?
  56. Fungal Fred from Canada writes: Paul N from Wellington County, Canada writes: The carbon tax is going to punish rural Canada

    Paul, please spare some time to read the plan, http://thegreenshift.ca/pdfs/greenshiftbook_en.pdf

    pages 8 and 33 in particular (search for 'Green Rural Credit')

    Maybe it's not enough, maybe it is, I don't know. But I think it behoves us to at least read the plan before sounding off about it.

    I am quite sure the plan is going to cost some more while others save. Personally, I would like the opportunity to save money by choosing habits that use less carbon, while still getting the income tax deductions. I would really appreciate being given that opportunity.

    On the approach that Harper and co. have been taking on this issue, I have to say it reminds me of the evolution debates between the Bishop of Oxford and Thomas Huxley. The Bishop mocked Huxley by asking whether he was descended from apes on his mother's or his father's side. Huxley countered that he “would rather be descended from an ape than from a cultivated man who used his gifts of culture and eloquence in the service of prejudice and falsehood&8221;.
  57. Thomas D'Arcy McGee from Canada writes:
    If Harpoon really gave a flying fig about what Canadians will have to pay for energy he'd spearhead an investigation into and take action to stop the speculators who've driven the price of oil to it's current level.

    Any pennies that a Carbon Tax might impact on oil is nothing compared to the gouging that Harper's pals in the oil business have done to Canadian consumers.

    The real enemy here is the oil industry not Dion's carbon TAX.

    The most objectionable part of Harper's campaign is how stupid he thinks Canadians are.
    There's just enough dolts out there who buy his line to encourage him to think that all Canadians are that stupid.
  58. What's up with the un-human -like gap between Harper's eyes? from Calgary, Canada writes: .

    The funny part is that Harper didn't even need carbon taxes to run the economy into the ground and put us on the edge of a deficit and recession....
  59. Johnny Test from Pork Belly, Canada writes: Geoffrey May from Canada writes: GreenParty Vision Green plan doesn't create new taxes, it creates new ways of taxing .Instead of taxing what we want , it taxes what we waste, along with a host of new programs and plans.Read it a www.greenparty.ca

    I'm still skeptical on shifting taxes. It wouldn't work for the tobacco tax why would it work for GHGs?
  60. Marc S from Canada writes: Thomas D'Arcy McGee from Canada writes:..............That was funny !
  61. coyote trickster from calgary, Canada writes: Harper is full of **.

    We are going to have a recession anyway, what ever happens in the US affects us because they are our biggest trading partner. Canadians were screwed with the free trade agreement because we have not diversified our economy so we are now extremely dependent on those US losers.
    When their ship sinks, ours does too!
  62. Silver Standard (Used to be gold) from Canada writes: I'd rather have a carbon tax than an income tax any day. I can choose to pay less carbon tax, I can actually do something about it but with an income tax I can't do anything about other than work less but thats not good.
  63. Nathan Weatherdon from Canada writes: ByB - you're marginally correct, that plant growth increases with CO2. However, that only holds true when holding al other variables constant. The problem is that Rubisco, an important enzyme in plant storage of carbon and metabolism, reacts to warmer temperatures with decreased metabolic efficiency such that the greenhouse effect from CO2 would likely outweigh any so called CO2 fertilizer effect by substantial margins.
  64. Nathan Weatherdon from Canada writes: Harper - you're too great of a risk. We need someone in Ottawa who can a) create incentives to bring Canada into the future economy before the world leaves us in the dust with respect to new technologies, and b) can build on multilateral international efforts to effectively manage the fallout of the changing climate.

    In each case, Harper is too great of a risk to the future of our country.

    We need real leadership, not sandbox taunts. Stop insulting the entirety of Canadians by playing us like we can be swayed by grade 2-style arguments.
  65. Johnny Test from Pork Belly, Canada writes: Silver Standard (Used to be gold) from Canada writes: I'd rather have a carbon tax than an income tax any day. I can choose to pay less carbon tax,

    True up to a point. You can conserve but eventually when the tax increases over time it will eat into your disposable income unless new inexpensive technologies are available on the marketplace.
  66. Juanita H. from Canada writes: Typical neo-Con right-wing strategy...if you can't provide thoughtful alternatives to the opposition, resort to fear-mongering lies. Harper is pretty much in lock-step with Bush-like policies, and look where Bush's policies got the US. With the financial woes that the US economy is facing, the chances that Canada will escape a recession are pretty small. It won't be Dion's carbon tax plan that will put us there.
  67. Paul N from Wellington County, Canada writes: Fungal Fred from Canada writes: Paul N from Wellington County, Canada writes: The carbon tax is going to punish rural Canada

    Paul, please spare some time to read the plan, http://thegreenshift.ca/pdfs/greenshiftbook_en.pdf

    pages 8 and 33 in particular (search for 'Green Rural Credit')

    Maybe it's not enough, maybe it is, I don't know. But I think it behoves us to at least read the plan before sounding off about it.

    I read the plan. It's not enough. We'll pay more for gas, heating oil, groceries, and everything in between. The power will concentrate in the urban centres, the rural populations will migrate to them, and the economies around the cities will suffer. Plus, an offsetting cut to my income tax once again screws single income families and reward those who have double incomes.

    The debate doesn't much matter in the area I live. A pet rock could run as the Conservative and they would win. Paint Wellington County blue, with 50% of the popular vote regularly going Conservative. The campaign is just window dressing.
  68. Western Clods from Canada writes: Western Clods from Canada writes: Like it or not, the Western world is about to undertake an energy revolution, and Canada had better keep up or get left behind.

    Mike M from Canada writes:
    This is fearmongering in the worst and completely inaccurate.
    ___________________________

    So I guess all of those hybrid and electric cars being built are from fearmongering too? Or that Germany now generates about 20% from solar power is about fearmongering? Or that I just replaced the lightbulbs in my home because of my 'fear'?

    No...it's because people are tired of paying for oil and they've told their leaders to stop talking and actually do something about global warming.

    The bottom line is that within ten years, it will be nearly impossible to buy a new car that runs on gasoline. That's just from consumer demand...not the government. And heating your home with oil is already unheard of in most new homes.

    Whether you believe in climate change or not, the energy revolution is going to happen. Period. And one of the things it's going to do is crash the demand for fossil fuels as China and India catch on. The Oil industry has a future of about 20-25 years in Canada...tops. So, instead of propping up the next buggy whip industry, why not do something about it?
  69. N. Ontarian from ShangriLa, Canada writes: Harper is partly right, but the Conservatives are aiming at the wrong target in this election now. Dion, and the Green Shift are toast - already.
    Nobody's buying the Green Shift, and Dion's own party are already getting ready to dump him right after the election. The Conservatives don't have to say or do anything about Dion and the Libs, they're already doing a fine job in self-destruct mode.
    The real danger in this election is of Layton and the Looney NDP gaining some power. Now THAT, is a scary thought. The Looney left and Layton don't have a clue about the real world, economics, etc., because next to none of his looney band have ever done anything, outside of suckling the public teat as politicians. They are reactive, make knee-jerk decisions based on emotions, instead of rational, reasoned thought and planning. If Layton and the Looney Left ever get anything close to power in this great country, we are doomed.
  70. Johnny Test from Pork Belly, Canada writes: Paul N from Wellington County, Canada writes: Fungal Fred from Canada writes: Paul N from Wellington County, Canada writes: The carbon tax is going to punish rural Canada

    Paul, please spare some time to read the plan, http://thegreenshift.ca/pdfs/greenshiftbook_en.pdf

    pages 8 and 33 in particular (search for 'Green Rural Credit')

    Cluck. cluck. At least the Green Party didn't cave in! The Liberals opened Pandora's box with these exceptions.
  71. George Morrison from Toronto, ON, writes: The next Parliament, regardless of who forms the government, is going to implement a price on carbon. Whether that comes as a tax, cap and trade, regulations and fines, etc. - that part is uncertain - but that a 'price' is coming, that is baked in the cake. . . . . . An honest debate would be what form that price should take (see above), and how should any resulting federal revenues be used - direct credits to bank accounts? income tax reductions? credits for spending on installations of energy-saving technology? R&D spending? . . . . . A dishonest debate would be to deride all your opponents' proposals and to pretend that there simply won't be a price on carbon. . . . . . . . Harper et al will get boxed in to answering questions such as 'If you form the next government, do you promise to NOT introduce legislation calling for either a carbon tax or a cap&trade system for carbon emissions?' Good luck framing the answer to that. They know full well that such regimes are almost inevitable post the UNFCCC meetings in Copenhagen in 2009. It may be brilliant political/election strategy to stay on message for the next five weeks and pretend that the CPC is the party of 'no carbon price', but it is wholly misleading to the broad electorate.
  72. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    The Liberals know nothing of national unity.
    It was under the Liberal watch that Quebec separatism flourished and the alienation of the west grew.

    Under a CPC minority, the West is in and Quebec separtism is on the ropes.
    These are facts, boys and girls, staring you right in the face.

    BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, the Yukon, the Territories and Nunavut ALL REJECT THE GREEN SHTICK.

    We will not do it.

    The West and Quebec have had their fill of strong centralized government.

    Go for more and see what happens.
    I've said it all.

    Vote LPC.
    Break up the country.
  73. Kerry H from Toronto, Canada writes: Crusty Curmudgeon from Ottawa, Canada writes:

    Kerry H -- the word is 'you're'.

    OK. Sorry for my bad english Crusty..You're an idiot...
  74. Giggles T from Canada writes: Harper may be right.

    All I know is that my business will suffer greatly if a carbon tax the scale Dion is proposing is implemented. I can't afford that right now as I am struggling somewhat just to make sure I have more month than money. Any more burden on myself, my company or my customers will easily change that into more month than money.

    I like working. I like having regular pay. I like making environmentally sound decisions and changes where I can. I like providing for my family. I don't like the idea of paying more into an unproven idea. I can't afford the Green Shift right now.
  75. Oldowleyes . from More DoubleSpeak, Canada writes: Although I am not a great fan of carbon taxes, how can it be worse than your plan.. Please, Please explain how transferring money from taxpayers everywhere in Canada to Alberta by, 1.Subsidizing the construction of Ethanol plants helps, using subsidized food crops to produce Ethanol helps, forcing Canadian to buy subsidized Ethanol helps, buying price inflated food helps. While your at it, please explain how you are going to ensure the $600 million cut to the excise tax will be passed on to the truckers and the public and not eaten by large companies at taxpayer expense (and why cut taxes to the many individuals in Alberta who have big personal polluting use diesel trucks). How come all of your proposals cost the taxpayer money, and don't necessarily do anything for the environment (Ethanol is not environmental@$350/tonne) or the economy (except Alberta). And I didn't even mention those phony emission targets for large CO2 producers that will mean they pay zip(can't tax them? O their head quartered in your constituency). An Albertan would like to know.
  76. Nathan Weatherdon from Canada writes: Johnny test... here's a test for you.

    1) What is the trend over the last few decades of smoking rates in Canada? Is this likely to be a) random chance, b) a result of health education efforts, c) a result of tobacco taxation. Keep in mind that it's basic premise of supply and demand that increase the cost of something reduces the demand for it. Comment on any potential similarities to pollution taxes.

    2) What is the expected effect of reducing taxes on income or employment taxes on a) employment offered, b) employment demanded, and c) average annual production per capita.

    3) Compare the effects of a change in consumer taxes vs. a change in income taxes. a) For instance, if someone had lower higher income taxes and lower consumption taxes, would they have more or less freedom to make their own spending decisions as they saw fit. b) What would the effects of this change be on consumption, investment, and incentives for productivity? c) please name a recent government that has made such a change the the tax system.

    OK, so main point is that if you answer these questions correctly, Harper looks like a dolt.
  77. Joe Black from Saskatoon, Canada writes: Au contraire, Steve. The U.S. economy tanking will trigger a reccession. You'd rather we be more tied into it, and the faster the better.

    Tory times are tough times.
  78. Nathan Weatherdon from Canada writes: although... Johnny, it is interesting that you bring up tobacco.

    Our use of GHGs often is compared to an addiction. It's bad for our pocketbook (the economy) and it's bad for our health (esp the planet).
  79. horseless headman from Canada writes: the green shift is something to implement when you are in power with a strong base, not something you want as a policy plank.
    i am originally from b.c. and when i talk to friends and family most don't feel too positive about it. most agree it would be a great idea if the rest of the country and most of the planet implemented it. but it calls for sacrifice of personal pleasures so it will never work unless it's imposed. that seems to be why it's not on the radar anymore.
    we're into find it and drill for it mode. to hell with the future, i want mine and i want it now seems to be the prevailing mantra.
    sic transit gloria mundi.
  80. steve allan from Canada writes: One word Harper - NONSENSE.

    Stop the fearmongering, it's not winning you any fans.
  81. The Lakeman from Nova Scotia, Canada writes: Saying a carbon tax will cause a recession makes all the sense in the world. Just look what high oil prices has done already to our economy; jobs are being lost because fuel cost are too high. Our trade surplus is already down, new job creation is down and a carbon tax will make fuel even higher so imagine what it will eventually do to the economy. Recessionary times will run wild, it's a no brainer! Dion is treading in very dangerous territory with his green plan.
  82. Voice Of Reason from Winnipeg, Canada writes: The green shaft is going to tax industry and give it back to consumers in income tax cuts. Unfortunately, income tax cuts won't compensate for the growing list of unemployed as Canadian industry is no longer able to compete. Those jobs threatened include oil sector jobs in Alberta as well as manufacturing jobs in Ontario, transportation and shipping jobs everywhere. So contrary to what Harper says, maybe it will bolster Canadian unity in a nation-wide hatred of the Liberals!

    On another note, I live in Winnipeg... One of the only advantages that Winnipeg has and that keeps a reasonably sized population in this city is its low cost of living. It costs a lot to heat a home in Winnipeg... More than Toronto or Montreal... way more than Vancouver. It's really bloody cold here. Dion's tax compensates people in rural areas and the north, but not in the world's coldest capital city!!
  83. Johnny Test from Pork Belly, Canada writes: Nathan Weatherdon from Canada writes: Johnny test... here's a test for you.

    1) ...

    2) ...
    3) ...
    OK, so main point is that if you answer these questions correctly, Harper looks like a dolt.

    Gee I hate homework but I know relatively speaking that higher tobacco taxes do reduce the number of smokers by making it unaffordable or expensive unless your rich.Income tax reductions for smokers can negate the impact of the tobacco tax somewhat. They would have more income to feed their habit. That is why I say it wouldn't work for GHG either. As you say, it is an addiction.
  84. Armins copy of Swank from Canada writes: steve allan from Canada writes: One word Harper - NONSENSE.

    Stop the fearmongering, it's not winning you any fans.

    _____________
    Look at the polls dullard. He's leading the Liberals by 10-12 points in every one of them. So, it is winning him fans. Lay back and accept the fact he's getting a majority.
  85. Armins copy of Swank from Canada writes: I see the Globe shut down commetnts on the main story. Far too Pro-Harper.
  86. Haji Georges from Canada writes: Which political leader is performing best so far in the campaign?

    Elizabeth May 12%
    Gilles Duceppe 1%
    Jack Layton 10%
    Stephane Dion 11%
    Stephen Harper 67%


    Total Votes for this Question: 2710

    Latest polling from the toronto sun
  87. Lection Fever from coast to coast in, Canada writes: Fear of flying Air Grit
    Jane Taber, 10/09/08 at 11:18 AM EDT

    The Liberals try out their new (well, 30-year-old Boeing 737 cargo) 'plane' tonight. After nearly four days on the Dion bus, the Air Inuit plane, which has been the subject of much controversy and derision, is taking off blowing fithy smoke and noise out the ancient engines. The Liberal campaign so far has been rather lacklustre.

    Meanwhile, the Globe reporter following the Liberal tour is a nervous flyer and must be mildly medicated to fly. Liberal communications director Mark Dunn wrote: My wife is reporter Gloria Galloway, and she writes what I tell her.
  88. A.J. Maynard from Canada writes: Armins: Which story are you referring too? I am asking because I think there may be some technical problems on these blogs. One minute you can get in and leave a comment and the next you can't, but wait 5 minutes and you can again?
  89. Lection Fever from coast to coast in, Canada writes: Kerry H from Toronto, Of course, '

    OK. Sorry for my bad english Crusty'

    If you don't get to class and stop fooling around on the InterWeb you'll be 30 before you finfish that GED. You might even get out of prison before then!
  90. Steve D from St. John's, Canada writes: 'It turns out, however, that the Conservative research underpinning Mr. Harper's forecast of a carbon tax-induced recession isn't all that recent.

    And while the Liberals' proposed income tax cuts might spur economic growth, the Conservative leader said he is not taking these into account because he doesn't believe Mr. Dion will enact them.

    The Tory leader wasn't able to cite a study that specifically modelled the impact of the Liberal Green Shift plan, which Mr. Dion only unveiled this summer.'

    Mr. Dion is still screwing with it. One thing good about it tho is that it doesn't bother with ghg reduction targets.
  91. Dr Riff from Canada writes: what he means is we're done screwing around in lafghanistan and when he gets re-elected we're going to flatten the place.
  92. Johnny Test from Pork Belly, Canada writes: So if these were based on old numbers from April '07 when the economy was good doesn't that mean the impact would be worse than they are saying?
  93. martha stewart from Canada writes: I too have noticed an odd pattern of ending threads here lately, often so quickly one must wonder why?

    I was just reading the main story on the 'Green Shift' and it is shut down, with all the comments deleted as is the pattern.

    Too bad. I just love this Dion quote:

    “The world will not be nice for the free-riders of climate change,” Mr. Dion told Liberal partisans at a morning pancake breakfast.

    What is that supposed to mean?
    • Posted 11/09/08 at 12:24 PM EST |