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Harper pitches two-tier youth justice plan

CAMPBELL CLARK and CAROLINE ALPHONSO AND LES PERREAUX

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 3:18 PM EST 22/09/08

Tories would slap stiffer sentences on 14-year-olds convicted of serious crimes – but in Quebec, the bar would be raised to 16 ...Read the full article

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  1. David Bakody from Dartmouth, Canada writes: Incarceration in Canada cost $80,000 to $120,000 per year per person at to-days rates............yup get tough on crime, there has to be a better way to keep the numbers down. Governments have been locking people up since the days of Julias Cesar with little or drop in crime>
  2. Tor Hill from Canada writes: Please, vote strategically in the ridings where CPC might come up the middle and win! This is the only chance that a party as revolting as CPC has of winning.
  3. suss man from Canada writes:

    I agreed with Harper on raising the age of sexual consent to16 from 14. But now he is telling us that a 14 year old should be held responsible for criminal acts at 14. I don't think he can reasonably have it both ways. Harper would feel more comfortable with the folks that came over on the Mayflower than he does in modern society.
  4. Robert Dryburgh from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada writes: Good, and a long time coming.
  5. Average Canadian from Canada writes: Unbelievable. So it is true - these guys really are neo-con reformers.

    Well that's it. I can't vote for a party like this. I want nothing to do with a Bush style party that pushes this type of agenda.

    So now what do I do? Vote Liberal? Amazingly that prospect doesn't seem as bad as it did even a few months ago. Maybe the greens will get another vote. I'm done with the cons if this is part of their agenda.
  6. Jonathan S. from Toronto, Canada writes: Cool! Back to simpler times, like the world of Oliver Twist. Canada needs a dickensian spin on its approach to youth and justice.

    Plus I wouldn't mind being able to Facebook-stalk young offenders, and their anonymity has always gotten in my way!
  7. Jonathan S. from Toronto, Canada writes: Might be worth Harper lowering the age of consent back to 14, so these young lifers can get settled into jail life as soon as they arrive.
  8. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: Great move, puting fathers as head of the household would help a lot of these boys. Until then, incarcerate them. I played road hockey everyday after school, others play football, basketball, video games.....youth programs are already there...get a stick and ball...go play, or get a job.
  9. Barry Moss from Canada writes: Frankly I remember my teen years all to well and the number of juvenile delinquents that figured they could get away with anything because they would only get a slap on the wrist if they got caught. So I agree with Harper's position on this. I only wish we could get tougher on repeat offenders as well.
  10. Nick Wright from Halifax, Canada writes: So Mr. Harper wants to send 15-year-olds to jail for the rest of their lives. The man is consumed with spite.

    Someone this keen to pander to the worst in us will not be long in pushing to reinstate the death penalty.

    He already indulged in Muslim-baiting over a few women wearing veils in voting booths.

    What's next? Maybe jailing panhandlers. Maybe arresting public servants who embarrass him.

    If he gets a majority, something tells me we won't have to wait long to find out.
  11. Trudeau's Apricot poodle from Canada writes: Good, if these little people are old enough get involved in murder, they are big enough to face the consequences. Rehabilitation is an option, ideally in the secure confines of a jail, there the best intersts of delinquents can be met, and society's right not to have little thugs out re-offending taken care of. If, after a reasonable length of time there is good reason to release them, ok, but the parole board allowing it must be held accountable in the event of any relapse by one of their clients.
  12. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: Marc...I have done no crime, therefore no jail...simple eh?
  13. Shades of Grey from Canada writes: Harper's only policy, other than promising whatever he things will get the Conservatives a majority, is to throw more people in jail. The U.S. has an incarceration rate of 1 in 100 (the second highest in the world, after, I believe, Russia). It certainly hasn't made the U.S. a safer place than Canada.
  14. Vote for your NDP MP on October 14,2008 federal election from Toronto, Canada writes: Canadians dont be fooled. The Conservatives justice plans are only a short term solution to dealing with crime. First of all, this tough on crime will land more people in jail and prison budgets are going to explode like in the US. And with their tax cuts, it will plunge Canada into deficit in the long term.

    Just look at Mr Harper's tough on crime speechs. He talks more about imprisonment more often and only mentions rehabilitation maybe once or twice. So when Harper's back in office, watch the prison population explode
  15. suss man from Canada writes:

    Maybe that soldiers in the streets thing waasn't that far off base after all.

    Police state coming to a country near you soon.
  16. Silent Minority from Winnipeg, Canada writes: 'He said it's possible the stiffer sentences for those over 14 might be struck down, because it might clash with the Supreme Court's assertion that in general, adolescents should be treated differently from adults.'

    So, if the SC has this much power, why are we not appealing to them to stiffen penalties to criminals...oh yeah, right, now i remember, because they are only 'interpreting' the laws written by the goverment which if I remember correctly is elected by the people. Last I checked we do not elect the SC and they should be working WITH the goverment not against it.

    The poor police, they will continue to see the revolving door on the court rooms as the law raises them to adult court only to have the SC slap the lower courts hands and sends them back to the streets to continue the carnage on us helpless victims.

    Sickening
  17. Peter Pendergast from Red Deer, Canada writes: It's about time these kind of positive changes were made to our justice system. Ever since the YOA, a profoundly stupid piece of legislation, young offenders have literally gotten away with murder, with little or no consequence (Think 'Kelly Ellard').

    It's simple, premediated murderers need to be kept off the street for the good of society
  18. Shawn Bull from Canada writes: Poll from CTV.CA:

    Should youth found guilty of serious crimes be named publicly upon conviction?


    Yes, all of them 5144 votes (76 %)

    Maybe just those 16 and older 1149 votes (17 %)

    No, a kid is a kid 438 votes (7 %)


    Total Votes: 6731

    Another very popular Conservative policy.
  19. C R from Canada writes:

    Im pretty sure life sentences aren't just handed out like candy. In today's culture teens are commiting serious and violent crimes that need to be dealt with by more then slapping them on the wrist.

    That being said, a life sentence for a 14 year old is a bit harsh. There needs to be a serious penalty (far more serious than now) but rehabilitation needs to be a serious directive. Also, pardons should be dealt out depending on the rehabilitation of the youth in question. Blanket laws in these sort of things don't make a heck of a lot of sense!

    I honestly wish that there was one party that had a balanced ideology on this. None do!
  20. L.B. MURRAY from !! from Canada writes: ----------------------------THINK---------------------------------------WHY in the world should we throw ''innocent until proven guilty people''..... ''innocent until proven guilty people'' are thrown to jail while the ''bad people'', the truly bad people, importers and sellers of drugs, and the WallStreetBlueBlazer guys who STEAL BILLIONS OF DOLLARS from RETIREES are going about their business ''as usual''....

    But... here's the CAVEAT.... YOUTH CRIME IS ON THE UPSWING....so, those so-called ''youths'' should be put in jail.... right next to the WallStreetChaneyBushCo FATCATS.

    Thank you and good day.

    -
  21. Tom H from Canada writes: Take THAT, 14 year-olds! Now you can't have sex, AND we can lock you up for your whole life. Suckas!!!
  22. Dennis sinneD from Calgary, Canada writes:

    A life sentence is not 'natural life until death', people. At least not in Canada.

    These 'kids' would still be out in plenty of time... but we'll be able to legally keep tabs on them until their demise.
  23. L.B. MURRAY from !! from Canada writes: Tom H from Canada writes: Take THAT, 14 year-olds! Now you can't have sex, AND we can lock you up for your whole life. Suckas!!!
    __________________________________________

    Esactly. 14-year old murderers and gun toting potential murderers should be locked up with the likes of ''mega-white-collar'' people such as those Enron and ConradBlackChaneyBushWhatever....

    -
  24. Trillian Rand from Canada writes: This suggestion should be seen for what it is, an attempt to draw favourable attitudes for Mr Harper's continuing attack on the Supreme Court. The judges have already ruled that minors (young offenders) must be treated differently from adults.

    Not happy with that decision, or with the Supreme Court in general, Mr Harper is now introducing an issue that will coalesce opinions against the Court. Mr Harper has already shown the Governor General is not a protection against governmental excess. Only two other bodies protect the citizenry from a heavy-handed government: the Supreme Court and the Senate.

    Mr Harper has made clear his intention to dilute the abilities of these two bodies to overrule the Prime Minister. The consequences should be clear. While it is fine for us to argue the effects of changes to the youth justice system we must never lose sight of the purpose or effect of any campaign promises.
  25. Silent Minority from Winnipeg, Canada writes: David Bakody from Dartmouth, Canada writes: Incarceration in Canada cost $80,000 to $120,000 per year per person at to-days rates............yup get tough on crime, there has to be a better way to keep the numbers down. Governments have been locking people up since the days of Julias Cesar with little or drop in crime>

    Geez David, a better way huh? well how about YOU come up with one then, obviously you have all the answers. Have you lived in the real world lately? been accosted by a group of teenagers in any cities core? been followed for blocks after denying a request for 'spare change'? Had a smart a$$ed kid hiss back at you to go ahead call the cops because he will meet you at the same corner tomorrow cause the cops can't keep him in?

    Individual rights are being taken away not because we are taking away the rights of the criminals (which we should be), it is because I am looking over my shoulder for that kid who threatened me last week for calling the cops on him.

    Take a walk in a large downtown core at 10 o'clock at night then come back here and tell me that 14 year old who stick a knife in your ribs shouldn't go to jail...
  26. Shawn Bull from Canada writes: Trillian Rand: It's a very easy concept really. The government makes the laws and the courts interprets them.
  27. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: The CTV poll is just more proof that something had to be done to the YOA. Ignore the lefties, Harper knows how to win a majority, because he listens to Canadians.
  28. HRC Thought Police from Canada writes: I agree with publishing the names of these little Darlings. This was what it was like before the liberal young offenders and youth justice acts. It served us just fine.
  29. Robert Dryburgh from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada writes: I wonder what these do-gooder lefties would think if they or their loved ones were the victims. These punks just laugh at the system and police because they know that they will pay no penalty for their actions. Public safety is far more important an issue here. I’m tired of pandering to these low life punks. The social experiment has failed miserably and it’s time to move on and think about the victims rights which have been forgotten for far too long.
  30. L.B. MURRAY from !! from Canada writes: Please allow me to repeat.... and then I'm outta here (this conversation)...

    SEND those 14-year-old people who try to commit murder to jail with the adults.... those adults being people such as ChaneyBushConradBlack..... whatever....

    Send them all to jail and stop with the nonsense of sending 78-years-old-canadian-with Alzheimers-still driving his car.... PLEASE... stop sending those guys to jail...

    Don't you know that us ''Baby Boomers'' and ''Pre-War Boomers'' are still driving our cars very slowly, obeying speed limit rules, while those 16-yr old kids are passing us on ''double yellow no-passing lanes''...

    Doesn't matter..... Good Bye!

    - P.S. No matter what, we're in the middle of ''election'' and politicians don't give a flying f..ck....

    -
  31. Silent Minority from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Shawn Bull from Canada writes: Poll from CTV.CA
    Another very popular Conservative policy.

    What's next? the Libbies and other left wings going to accuse CTV of calling all right wingers in the country to vote yes???

    Or will it be the old 'majority cannot rule in a democracy, it tramples the rights of the minorities'

    Wake up people, we need law and order, do you think all of these little kids grow up to be law abiding citizens? NO, some of them go on to be bankers and investment specialists with the same attitude...
  32. BeerBelly Buddah from Wpg, Canada writes: WHAT?
    WHAT?

    I'm shocked!

    Can't Harper get it right! He's on the cusp of securing a majority- he's gotta get it right!
    He absolutely must go all the way and pledge to re-introduce hanging? Cheaper still - firing squads?

    What's wrong with him? Doesn't he realize he would - but guarantee himself a majority if only he would go all the way 'a la Stalin'. Why didn't he include Gulag construction in his recent Arctic announcement? Can't he see he's losing votes by not 'going all the way'?

    Also, Mr. Harper it is incumbent on you to bring back the pauper 'poor houses' - only then may our great nation be spared the ills associated with poverty!


    that
  33. West Coast Not West from Canada writes: Peter Pendergast from Red Deer, Canada writes:
    Ever since the YOA, a profoundly stupid piece of legislation, young offenders have literally gotten away with murder, with little or no consequence (Think 'Kelly Ellard').

    Did the Air India bombers get away with murder with no consequence because of the YOA too?
  34. Have An Opinion from Canada writes: It's about time. I am sick of the blank cheque that the YCJA gives to teenagers to break the law at will - from murder to depravity to beating the crap out of the homeless and elderly - I am sick of it. Do the crime do the time. To presume that these so called 'kids' can't somehow figure out that murder is wrong is ridiculous. It is furthermore ridiculous to agree that the penalty for the crime is somehow 'discounted' because there is a presumption made on the mental capacity of a teenager to understand. This is crap that is perpetuated by a liberal mindset more bent on continued social welfare employment than fairness under the law.
  35. Alec Robertson from Riverdale, Canada writes: Let's ask Stephen Truscott what he thinks.
  36. della baird from vancouver, Canada writes: dee vancouver: no no no no. wrong! the cause of juvenile crime in most cases is bad upbringing, no one to turn to when there is anger because of it. always on the outside looking in.as a young person especially today you are judged by your clothing,lack of money, your dwelling etc. even if you do not follow the latest trends, which of course stigmatizes the kids even more. a few posters here who have abviously never been through this type of trauma and (trauma it is ) will never understand what these kids go through. we should be thankful there are real people who's goal is to get through to these kids before they do harm to themselves and others.the rest are just paid mouth pieces and most who do not care. speaking from experience. just hope that that your child does not end up on the wrong side of 'justice'. or that you are a millionaire. good luck!
  37. jack sprat from Canada writes: So many issues with this vote pandering policy: 1. Currently the sentence is 10 years (its not 0 as Cons would have you believe). Thereis no parole although some can be served as house arrest but you don't get out of the sentence. Current second degree murder conviction is elgible for parole after 10 years. So, whats the difference except a kid is locked up with adults instead of with peers where counselling and rehab is a focus with kids being the speicalty. 2. Last week Harper bragged about stopping tobacco ads targeted at kids. Why? Because they are too young and impressionable to be able to make a decisoin to smoke or not. So they can't make a mature decision on smoking but they can on something as complex as a crime. Harper is sucking and blowing at the same time. 3. Read the fine print. Each province can have any change they want to enact this. Huh? A murderer in Quebec is different than a murderer in Ontario is different than one in Alberta? Next thing you know Harper will put in a fixed election law with fine print. This does NOTHING except allow for kids to be named if convicted. Yeah, that's a huge deterrent for a teenager- more attention and their name in the paper. Scary if you think what else he might have up his sleeve.
  38. L.B. MURRAY from !! from Canada writes: After GUANTANAMO, next is some Canadian Gulag, if I understand what Beer Belly posted above....

    ...What's wrong with him? Doesn't he realize he would - but guarantee himself a majority if only he would go all the way 'a la Stalin'. Why didn't he include Gulag construction in his recent Arctic announcement? Can't he see he's losing votes by not 'going all the way'? writes Beer Belly
    __________________________________

    Exactly. So, I'm signing off right now, since I do not want my ''Little Old Buttttt'' sent to Guanto, subito pronto...

    Cheers!!

    P.S. Don't some of you find it strange that within minutes, any person can be sent to jail, but it takes forever to get your file ''cleaned up'' and after some wizzkid steals your i.d. and your moniker.... there you go again.... New rule being ''Guilty until proven Innocent''..... WORSE than Orwell's 1984.... Much, much worse...

    Carpe Diem.

    -(For those of you who did not have the privilege of a ''Classical education'', Carpe Diem means in ''Enjoy the Day''....

    Carpe Diem.

    -
  39. Have An Opinion from Canada writes: Why don't you ask the Steinkey family of Med Hat (what's left of them) or Ellard's victims. If you are going to make a comment at least make sure it's intelligent.
  40. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: The Truscott example is dumb...that was a failure in investigation and prosecuation...it had nothing to do with AGE. If a 40 year old experienced what Truscott did, it would be just as bad.
  41. Honesty is the best Policy from Canada writes:
    This will appeal to Harpers base... The coalition of the stupid.
  42. jack sprat from Canada writes: Also, there is no YOA, that was changed long ago. Next, kids with violent crimes already can get sentenced to 10 years. HOw mcuh of a deterrent is life in prison when parole is 10 or 15 years for first degree murder?

    People act like these kids don't go to jail. The sentences are already there, perhaps its the system that needs changing. BUt Harper is not doing that.

    And the whole idea of mudrerers being responsible at different ages depending on where they live is bizrre to say the least.
  43. B.C. Centrist from Canada writes: This extremely right wing party seems to be trying to do it's best in bringing out the worst in us.
  44. D G from Canada writes: Robert Dryburgh - and I wonder what these 'Throw away the key' rightie types would think if it was their 15 year old nephew or kid brother whose first offense landed him with a 25 year sentence.
  45. Robert Dryburgh from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada writes: Alec Robertson from Riverdale, While we are asking, how about the family of the innocent taxi driver killed when one of these habitual catch and release punks ran a red in a stolen vehicle and rammed his cab. One of the sleazy female young offenders laughed in court and said the man would have to die sometime. Go on Ask them ASK THEM.
  46. P Martin from St. John's, Canada writes: I have many concerns with the treatment of children in our legal system but this is not progressive, this is regressive. The damage this would do to our society is frightening. I shutter to think what type of person would believe that this will make things better (it will not). It does seem like something Harper would do.
  47. Trevor Street from Harperseesawhoville, Canada writes: ..This from a man who can't even embrace his own children as he drops them off on their first day of school..(Don't pee-off Daddy or it's off to the slammer you'll go!) And for all of those subhuman whiners that agree with incarcerating those misbehaving teenagers at age 14, look to the cause of why they turn criminal at such an early age. Most are the product of incapable, ineffectual and uncaring parents. There are many out there who should never be allowed to have children for all the misery those kids grow up with. Harper and his party of moronic neanderthals become more and more disgusting in their opportunistic drive for power. And sadly by appealing to the base ignoramuses that will welcome the proposal to jail 14 year olds he just might get enough votes.
  48. John Ishmael from Brampton ON, Canada writes:

    JACK, you make good sense.

    >>>>jack sprat from Canada writes: So many issues with this vote pandering policy>>>

    But prejudice sells.
  49. D G from Canada writes: Actually, della baird may have a point. Bad upbringing is definately part of the problem so let's throw the parents in jail for the same amount of time.

    That might put some of the angry righties and loonie lefties on some common ground cause I am sure you can find kids who come from either background!
  50. Terry F from Edmonton, Canada writes: D G from Canada writes: Robert Dryburgh - and I wonder what these 'Throw away the key' rightie types would think if it was their 15 year old nephew or kid brother whose first offense landed him with a 25 year sentence.

    If my 15 year old nephew was stupid enough to commit a crime that warranted a 25 year sentence, my advice to him would be 'don't drop the soap and we'll see you out in 8 years.' (which is what a life sentence really is in Canada)
  51. jack sprat from Canada writes: Will 14 year olds now get to vote? Drink? Drive? Smoke? Join the forces? Have sex at 14? Drop out of school?

    If they know right from wrong so well, give them all the choices.

    Wow. Huge move to the right by Harper.

    What else isn't he telling us?????
  52. Robert Dryburgh from Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada writes: D G from Canada writes: Robert Dryburgh - and I wonder what these 'Throw away the key' rightie types would think if it was their 15 year old nephew or kid brother whose first offense landed him with a 25 year sentence.
    ____________________________________________
    For murder and violent crimes I would throw away the key. Now you know what I would do.
  53. scott thomas from Canada writes: If the cons were serious about crime, they wouldn't be stalling on the Mulroney fraud. Or the Cadman bribe.
  54. Clark Kellog from Calgary, Canada writes: So IF they are convicted THEN they will impose a stronger sentence. How many cases have been thrown out? Or had a mistrial? This doesn't mean anything if the government cannot convict any of these kids, it is just hot air. Get more competent prosecutors hired then they can worry about IF they win a court case.
  55. Charles Brown from Vancouver, BC, Canada writes: Yes and make sure the keys are thrown away. As for the bleeding hearts that are calling for a second chance to be given, please think about the victims. Do the victims also deserve a second chance? Will they ever get one?
  56. John McMortimer-Boyles from An Undisclosed Underground Location Safe From Nuclear Attack, Canada writes: On this one, I have to say good on the Conservatives. The Nina Courtepatte killing is an example of a case where life for a juvenile is most appropiate.

    For those not familiar with the case, a bunch of teenagers lured a young teenage girl, Nina Courtepatte (then 13) out to a golf course on the pretext they were going to a bush party. Once at the golf course, they raped her, the bludgeoned her to death with a sledgehammer.

    While three of the four accused were ultimately sentenced in adult court, the prosecution shouldn't have had to jump through the hoops they did to get an adult sentence.
  57. Edward Mulcare from Canada writes: The cons! As usual it's never about punishment and rehabilitation (unless it's one of their kids), it's about revenge.
    Prison, never has been or ever will be a deterrent from crime. But the cons and their supporters would have to learn how to read if they wanted to know the facts. And if they were actually reading the facts and researching they would be spending less time in airport bathrooms. That's not going to happen.
  58. nick oliver from halifax, ns, Canada writes: Trudeau's Apricot poodle from Canada writes: Good, if these little people are old enough get involved in murder, they are big enough to face the consequences.

    so if the state can take away their freedom for life for a crime like a adult, should they not be able to also vote, drive a car, join the army, purchase alcohol & cigarettes, rent pornography, get married, have sex, buy or rent a house, get an abortion without notifying their parents or anything else we allow only adults to do? if we want to give 14 year-olds responsibilities of an adult, then they should have the rights that go along with adulthood - and i don't think too many of us would be in favour of that. i think this is the equivalent of a political drive-by shooting by the cpc, targeting a whole group of people for the actions of a few when none of them have the right to vote and defend themselves from this policy being implemented. talk about a cheap shot.

    i'm not saying they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions but by harper saying this will be a deterrent to crime in the mind of a kid the same way it would be in the mind of adult is ridiculous. kids make big mistakes sometimes exactly because they their brains aren't yet fully developed and they aren't fully aware of the consequences or ripple effects of their actions. no law can change the rate of mental development in kids. no law will stop kids from doing something stupid. what the law can do is create a level of accountability that recognizes a child's lower chance of recidivism if they are actually treated like a kid instead of an adult by the justice system. throwing away the key makes us all feel good and self-righteous, right up until it's a kid we love who made a kid's mistake and we feel deserves a second chance.

    the liberals have allowed all of the cpc's fiscal agenda to get passed. all that's left is the social agenda, and if this is what it looks like, the current polls scare the sh!t out of me.
  59. D G from Canada writes: Ever notice how angry right wing parents raise angry right wing kids? Lather rinse repeat.
  60. D G from Canada writes: nick oliver - absolutely the truth but if you are expecting harper and his CRAPpers of absorbing anything akin to logic I fear you will be mightily disappointed.
  61. nick oliver from halifax, ns, Canada writes: what i'd really like to see in the law & order agenda is a toughening up of the sentences for white collar crime and more funding for the cops that go after them. these are the people really getting away with a slap on the wrist.
  62. John McMortimer-Boyles from An Undisclosed Underground Location Safe From Nuclear Attack, Canada writes: dick brown from missy, Canada writes: The Truscott example is dumb...

    And I agree with Dick Brown. The Truscott case is a lousy example. By the way, cases like Truscott and Milgard is the reason I don't support the death penalty.

    That said, there are some pretty good examples of youths committing some pretty henious crimes and getting off with a light sentence because the YCJA. If some of the monsters who perpetrate offences like the Courtepatte killing I mentioned earlier are taken out of circulation for a long, long time, then good.
  63. Brent Williams from United Kingdom writes: Thank god Canada has a Supreme Court that will NEVER allow the government to do something as foolish and irresponsible as this. There are serious problems with youth crime in Canada, but this does not address it. It will exacerbate and create further problems socially, economically and culturally which will be difficult to correct. An ignorant idea by an ignorant leader of an ignorant party.
  64. Tor Hill from Canada writes: Justice Minister Nicholson said yesterday that if CPC comes in with a minority government and if the oppostion blocks its crime and punishment legislation, it won't hestitate to force another election. That would make a minimum of wasting $600 million to try to win on the message of being tough on crime, without doing anything about it, such as spending money wisely on it.
  65. G H from Megacity, Canada writes: I am kind of bewildered here. Harper will give no money toward poverty, mental health, homelessness, schools, youth action programs .... He will throw children into mainstream prison, pot smokers in jail, and at the same time allow the individual provinces to set their own standards? He sounds quite confused to me. This is a leader? I have seen so many horrors with children, poor parenting skills, broken homes, peer pressure, abuse, bullying etc. in my years. I have worked with many many children and let me tell you many really have a distorted view on life. Many do not understand their actions. Their minds are not developed like an adults as the wisdom we impart mostly comes from expereince and learning. Much more can be accomplished through counselling and youth centric jails than will ever be accomplished through integration with an adult population in prison that can teach them how not to get caught next time. Publishing their names for a childhood mistake can be detrimental to their future ... even Mcd's and Timmy's no longer hire youth with a record. Criminal checks abound in the low paying service industry jobs. Now we have 14 - 30 year olds on social assistance because nobody will hire them at all. I guess the whole world doesn't have perfect children like Stephen's
  66. G H from Megacity, Canada writes: I am kind of bewildered here. Harper will give no money toward poverty, mental health, homelessness, schools, youth action programs .... He will throw children into mainstream prison, pot smokers in jail, and at the same time allow the individual provinces to set their own standards? He sounds quite confused to me. This is a leader? I have seen so many horrors with children, poor parenting skills, broken homes, peer pressure, abuse, bullying etc. in my years. I have worked with many many children and let me tell you many really have a distorted view on life. Many do not understand their actions. Their minds are not developed like an adults as the wisdom we impart mostly comes from expereince and learning. Much more can be accomplished through counselling and youth centric jails than will ever be accomplished through integration with an adult population in prison that can teach them how not to get caught next time. Publishing their names for a childhood mistake can be detrimental to their future ... even Mcd's and Timmy's no longer hire youth with a record. Criminal checks abound in the low paying service industry jobs. Now we have 14 - 30 year olds on social assistance because nobody will hire them at all. I guess the whole world doesn't have perfect children like Stephen's
  67. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: Nick...we're talking about 1st degree murder...planned murder. If a 14 year old can plan and execute a murder, they're pretty with it....therefore should be in jail for a long time....they scaaaaare me (I sound like a lib now LOL).
  68. L B from Canada writes: right on ( have a opinion from canada) I second that opinion,its about time ,and I also think they should start handing stiffer sentences to the little darlings they know better ,they know right from wrong,stop with the excuses for there actions,and the opinion from ( Dryburgh)exactly how I feel,court day what a laugh, little darlings think its funny,I've seen how they act,some of your little darlings have a rap sheet should saysheets so long you would not believe it,poor little johnny, he doesn't know better,hes just a little boy, hes only 14 or so,give me a break.and if that's the case how about putting huge fines on these fabulous parents,are they not responsible for there little johnny's behavior? you would see changes made specially when they have to take money out of their wallet to pay for their darlings actions.and then have these so called poor babies pick up trash .
  69. Alec Robertson from Riverdale, Canada writes: Have and Opinion: Truscott was found Guilty at AGE 14 and sentenced to hang. Sentence reduced to Life in prison at AGE 15 beginning in a school for boys. Truscott was transferred to Collins Bay with at AGE 17 and placed in the general population. The fact that he didn't do it is one thing. Entirely separate from that is the severity of the sentencing and the danger he was exposed to as a young offender. Dick Brown: A forty year old would be better equipped to deal with the situation (one would think) As a footnote; a member of my family was 'a guest of the Crown' from the age of 14. He was in and out of prison for 15 years. All it did was make him a more ambitious criminal.
  70. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: The fact is, the 'youths' committing murder are rarely 14, usually 16-17 or an adult. Probably because when they were 14, they were handled with kids gloves by lefty loonies from above. Cut the sh!te lefties....your social engineering is a failed concept. Boys have been socially engineered and feminized for 20 years now and look where it has gotten us. Are things better?
  71. B W from Canada writes: I agree with suss man - there is an inconsistency between this proposed policy and the age of consent. you can't have sex b/c you don't know better - but you can be tried as an adult for serious crimes because you should have known better.

    And while this sounds all 'tough on crime' - what kind of numbers are we talking about here? Are many serious crimes are committed by young offenders each year, or is this tough talk that translates into very little change in crime since it targets a small number of criminals. how much does it cost to incarcerate someone and what would these tougher laws mean to prison costs?

    The Conservatives moreso than anyone else, are releasing their platform in pieces - and even their pieces aren't whole pieces, just bits.
  72. Roman Spears from St. Catharines, Canada writes:
    So lets see. At 14 they are not old enough to know what they are doing when it comes to sex but they are old enough to know what they are doing when they commit a violent crime? Heck, lets make the military recruiting age 14 and get them all off the streets and into a uniform where they belong. Seems common sense is the least common thing.
    I don't know about the rest of you but I think Harper is shooting himself in the foot now and not waiting for his fellow Reform Party people to continue doing it for him. This may yet give the Liberals a minority, without a coalition.
  73. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: Alec...then leave him in jail then.
  74. Fake Name from Canada writes: Are we talking about an automatic life sentence for murder, or making that an option available for the most heinous of cases? It makes a lot of difference in assessing whether it's a good idea.
  75. Melvin Partridge from Canada writes: Lock'em up and throw away the key.
  76. John Ishmael from Brampton ON, Canada writes:

    .... THANKS - SENSIBLE CANADIANS STILL EXIST

    Scott Gordon from BC, Canada writes: Nice! Welcome to Harper's Canada, where 14 year olds go to jail for life. No second chances for children. This guy is a fear-mongering ideologist

    suss man from Canada writes: I agreed with Harper on raising the age of sexual consent to16 from 14. But now he is telling us that a 14 year old should be held responsible for criminal acts at 14. I don't think he can reasonably have it both ways.

    Average Canadian from Canada writes: Unbelievable. So it is true - these guys really are neo-con reformers. Well that's it. I can't vote for a party like this. I want nothing to do with a Bush style party that pushes this type of agenda
  77. Alec Robertson from Riverdale, Canada writes: Dick Brown: Statistically the overall crime rate nationally has declined steadily. In 2006 they were at their lowest in 25 years.
  78. Keating Gun from Canada writes: Having actually heard young punks brag that they can do anything they like because the most they can ever get is about three years, I think life sentences are long overdue. The short terms were a foolish policy.
  79. della baird from vancouver, Canada writes: dee vancouver: thank you Trevor Street. you said it better than i.
  80. Megan Ratcliffe from Toronto, Canada writes: About damn time, I think. While I do believe that some young offenders may be capable of being rehabilitated, the large majority of them, particularly the ones who committ absolutely horrible and violent felonies at the age of 14, deserve to have the book thrown at them. This is good policy but it will need to be very carefully implemented so that there is a clear distinction between a first offense of say petty theft(most of that is probably committed as a prank) and a first offense where a violent crime is committed. I actually know a judge who has told me that he feels that the current YCJA doesn't go far enough. I think this policy would be particularly effective with repeat, violent offenders. These young punks need to feel the full wrath of the ADULT justice system. Along with that there needs to be more push for victims rights and victims advocacy because all too often the victims and their families are the ones who get screwed by the justice system Just ask Reena Virk's parents. This policy should also include a clause where the victims families can force a face to face meeting with the criminal, to try and understand why this person took their loved ones life.To Silent Majority from Winnipeg, I agree with you too. It's terrible to feel afraid to walk down the street, or be followed because you refused to give up spare change. This has not yet happened to me but I live in Toronto so the possibility is always there. This policy would be even more effective if parents were not afraid to say no and mean it, and would stop trying to be their kids best friends.
  81. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: John...so you're voting Harper?...great!
  82. Ed Long from Canada writes: 14 year olds don't vote.
  83. Silent Minority from Winnipeg, Canada writes: nick oliver from halifax, ns, Canada writes: what i'd really like to see in the law & order agenda is a toughening up of the sentences for white collar crime and more funding for the cops that go after them. these are the people really getting away with a slap on the wrist.

    Oh Nick, how noble of you, but that still doesn't detract from some snot nosed 14 year old taking a liking to your 12 year old neice and offing her when she doesn't put out. Paid stooge...
  84. John Ishmael from Brampton ON, Canada writes:
    JAILING POLITICIANS

    What about jailing the politicans who give us listeroisis, Walkerton water, tained tuna fish, dented death trap subs, propane gas explosions in a city, procurement commission bribes....

    Or leaving our troops for another 38 months or more in the American meat grinder
  85. jack sprat from Canada writes: JOhn McMOrtimer, the available sentence for these crimes now is 10 years. The current elgibility for parole for 2nd degree murder for adults is....10 years.

    If you have a problem with light sentencing this does NOTHING to ease that concern..

    This is pure vote pandering by trying to say whatpeople want tohear. There is nothing to it.

    And still, different provinces can pick the age that suits them to enact this? Bizarro.

    As I said, if this is what he's saying out loud, think of the legislation they have in mind that he is not talking about.

    Unbelieveable.
  86. c o jones from Canada writes: So a 14 year old who breaks a law can be locked up for life, interesting. PLease everyone, for the sake of the country, make sure that a prime minister who breaks laws (his own fixed date election law, bribery - Chuck Cadman issue, etc) DOESN'T get re-elected.
  87. John Ishmael from Brampton ON, Canada writes:

    MAYBE IF I WERE TORTURED BY WATER BOARDING

    >>>dick brown from missy, Canada writes: John...so you're voting Harper?...great! Posted 22/09/08 at 4:51 PM EDT

    Dick, maybe if he water boarded me.

    My list was in admiration of those who appeared to think that Harper is appealing to the most base human instincts for votes.
  88. G Parsons from Fort Mac, Canada writes: L.B. MURRAY from !! from Canada : Carpe Diem means Sieze the Day. Which 'classical education' school did you go to?
  89. Alec Robertson from Riverdale, Canada writes: Jack Sprat: Sorry...everyone is too busy enjoying the 2% reduction in the GST to hear you
  90. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: Alec, that is because Canadians don't have children anymore. Violent crime is up though, and that is what we are talkng about here.
  91. jack sprat from Canada writes: Once again, if a youth is getting three years for a 'heinous' crime its not because sentences are not available. The current sentence available for murder is 10 years for a youth. For an adult, a second degree murderer is elgible for parole after 10 years; first degree 15.

    Judges currently sentence based on their experience, the situation, expert advice and training they get.

    No doubt errors have been made but this move by Harper does nothing for that. It is pandering and misleading. Nothing more, nothing less.

    And like I said, depending where you live, the age this comes into effect can vary.
  92. dick brown from missy, Canada writes: co sorry...harper again....too bad, so sad.....for socialism that is...thank allah!
  93. B W from Canada writes: John McMortimer-Boyles - I use the Nina Courtepatte killing to prove the opposite point. It is an (unfortunate) example of how the current system works correctly. The assumption is if you're under 18, you're a young offender. Prove why the offender should be tried as adults and they're tried as adults. it's not a hoop. It's a mechanism to check that the punishment will suit the crime. The crime involves a mental culpability and a physical act. I actually think there'd be less convictions of young offenders tried automatically for murder as adults, since age arguments would be used to assess mental culpability. Yes where there are convictions, the punishments would be more severe, however, under the current 'tiered' system, the youth of the offender is already built into the consideration of mental culpability
  94. Trillian Rand from Canada writes: Brent Williams from United Kingdom writes: 'Thank god Canada has a Supreme Court that will NEVER allow the government to do something as foolish and irresponsible as this.'

    That is true at present, but Mr Harper has previously indicated that he wants the Supreme Court to only interpret law. In effect he wants to assert the predominance of Parliament over the judiciary. While this will undoubtedly win some support from the short-sighted who cannot or refuse to understand the ramifications of giving Parliament absolute powers, it should be seen for what it is, another attempt to centralize executive powers in the office of the prime minister.

    Mr Harper makes much of 'the will of Parliament' when he means the will of the Prime Minister. What is most incredible is that even he must see that neither he nor other conservative leaders can hold power forever. The systemic changes he envisions will one day fall into more liberal hands.
  95. Phil Courterelle from New Westminster, Canada writes: So let's see if I have this right, in the middle of a close election race, one in which the Tories have little to offer, they announce they are going to sentence children to life in prisonment...how warm and fuzzy is that!!! If the Liberals are not sentencing us to the poor house it's the Tories sentencing our kids to prison.

    Proving once again that no lead is too large for the Tories to squander.
  96. Lyn Alg from Canada writes: It's about time that someone toughened the youth crime laws in Canada. Congratulations, Mr. Harper, for finally proposing to do what the majority of Canadians have been clammering for. The week-kneed, soft-on-crime Liberals, have for many decades protected these young criminal hooligans at the expense of their victims. I had been an undecided voter until now, however, Stephen Harper can count on another supporter on Oct 14, 2008. How about bringi