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TORONTO — S o far, the debate over the biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression has been dominated by Wall Street analysts, economists, central bankers and politicians. Now, a novelist is wading into the fray. In an unusual departure, best-selling author, poet and critic Margaret Atwood is tackling the subject of debt. Payback: Debt and the Shadow Side of Wealth is an examination of our relationship with debt through the prisms of myth, literature and religion. Ms. Atwood sat down with reporter Sinclair Stewart earlier this month.
People don't typically associate you with economic theory. Isn't it a bit odd that you're writing a book about debt?
It's hilarious, in a way. Me? Moi? People think poet, novelist, airhead, lunatic, not serious. When I say people, I mean regular business people. ‘Why does it have any validity what she thinks? She doesn't have a degree in economics.' But economic man doesn't exist. It's an abstraction.
Your timing is prescient, what with the government attempting a record bailout of Wall Street. Did you foresee this debacle?
I didn't know that the meltdown was going to happen right now. But coming events cast their shadows beforehand. I planned to do it for 2009, and then my novel got postponed until 2009. And [my publishers] said ‘Please, please, please write it.' I worked from a cold start at the beginning of February to get it in at the beginning of June.
Why this subject, though? Are you repaying a kind of debt here?
I did it for [Anansi chairman] Scott Griffin, because people who run literary publishers usually don't get much remuneration.
What are the roots of this mess? Are we hopelessly mired in a culture of indebtedness?
It's the credit card and the college loan. You've basically been told to invest in your future by going into debt. The government thinks it has an endless supply of money – namely you. They actually don't.
Your book leans heavily on allusions and metaphor, particularly the Bible. What does Scripture have to say about our relationship with money and debt?
Jesus wasn't very interested in sex. But he was interested in money. The problem with Christianity has always been if you are rich, does that mean God favoured you? Or that you sold your soul to the devil? They can never decide which one.
This seems to be a dominant motif in the literary examples you muster as well.
My area was the Victorian novel, and I had to do a lot of Americana at Harvard. The 19th-century novel is very driven by money: If you peel off the very sentimental characters and get to the skeleton, it's a money skeleton. It's ‘Who's paying for Pip's education?'” You don't notice it much when you're young, because you're more interested in the psychosexual.
How did you learn about money?
From having that bank book when I was eight.
Will the magnitude of this crisis teach us a lesson, and change the way people view indebtedness?
Short term, they will learn the lesson. These things stay with you. My mother was still saving rubber bands until the end of her life. On the other hand, my dad loves buying land.
Do you?
I'm afraid I do. I own little bits of land – it's like a nature conservancy.
But did you inherit some of your parents' frugality?
Yes.
Your book isn't filled with numbers, but looks at debt more conceptually. Why this approach?
What is wealth? Is it numbers on a page? Or is it people's quality of life? I'd argue that it's the latter.
It's popular to blame Wall Street or rapacious lenders for the current problem. But do average borrowers bear some responsibility too?
If you offer someone free bubble gum, usually they're going to take it. It is human nature to take the low hanging fruit. It's easy, and it makes evolutionary sense.
And what do you think about the fate of Wall Street itself?
Until the floods rise, there will always be work there.
You talk in your book about the link between debt and sin. Why do we feel shame about financial hardship?
I think the stigma comes from always wanting people to think better of you than your actions might actually warrant. Of course you want people to think you're an upright citizen. Even when it's not true.
What's one thing you learned in the course of writing this book?
I learned about publicans. I really did think they were guys who ran the pubs. They were the tax gatherers.
If you look at this crisis, it still seems relatively contained to the U.S. market. What is it about Americans' relation to debt that is unique? Does it have to do with the notion of exceptionalism?
The exceptionalism was with them since the Plymouth colony. I think they're more easily seduced by the idea that the bounty is endless. It's very hard to resist.
So why don't Canadians act the same way?
Because the Scots came here. ‘It may be fine weather today, but we'll pay for it later' – this idea of everything balancing out. Americans like to make money. Canadians like to count it.
You sometimes couch things in evolutionary terms. How does that fit into what we've seen?
There was a lot of high-risk investing. It's really risky behaviour. That's why guys love it. They have that high-risk payoff thrill. It also gives us a bit of contempt for the safe livers.
Are we better off in Canada, or should we be worrying as well?
We shouldn't have spent our surplus. There's a biblical parable for that too – the story of Joseph. Another thing is we still float on resources. We should have put a lot more into new technology. The typical Canadian story is some genius invents a new thing, can't get any money for it, and takes it to the States.
