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Immigrants face growing economic mobility gap

MARINA JIMÉNEZ

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Latest comment posted at 1:31 AM EST 06/10/08

Incomes grow for Asian newcomers but blacks often fare worse from one generation to the next, census data shows ...Read the full article

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  1. A TK from Canada writes: The decrease in performance of some groups compared to their success rates upon arrival shows that, to me, ethnicity matters less than community. Bravo to those people who arrive, work hard, and build successful futures for future generations.

    Canadian born Muslim from Ottawa, not every Caucasian drops out from too many drunken parties. Yes, we have them. No, not all of the time. I would think, considering your name, that you would be more sensitive to the stereotypes that people like to throw around. By reversing them, you're not winning any battles or reforming any minds. Insular thinking is a waste of time.
  2. Canadian born Muslim from Ottawa, Canada writes: A TK from Canada

    Yeah, right on! Insular thinking is a waste of time. Do you hear that Caucasian Muslim bashers of the Globe and Mail Forums?
  3. Duncan K from Canada writes: ATK writes 'The decrease in performance of some groups compared to their success rates upon arrival shows that, to me, ethnicity matters less than community. Bravo to those people who arrive, work hard, and build successful futures for future generations.'

    Bingo. Canada is a land of opportunity, but there are still no easy pickings there. Not only do the successful immigrants that I have known work their asses off, they also have families, communities and networks that actively help with other aspects of life. It is not usually enough to merely work hard: those without social networks built around positive feedback will have a much harder time.
  4. Raf O from Vancouver, Canada writes: Asian immigrants/canadians do well economically I think for various reasons:
    1. Their career decisions tend to be focused on economic advantages and greater status vs. freedom and enjoyment of employment.
    2. Their work ethic is the greatest...I'll also add they're very competitive.
    3. There tends to be a strong value system associated with family and good friends -- so less random hook ups, Jerry Springer -type relationship problems, but rather a strong network and family relations.
    4. Many Asian immigrants arrive to Canada already in the middle-upper class, if not upper class. From my perspective, money tends to stay within the cultural group - hence, potentially increasing economic growth within the ethnic minority.
  5. Olivia Brownbeck from Canada writes: As someone who has worked with many new Canadians I was shocked to learn just how broken the immigration system is for so many. It has been broken for a very long time.

    Trudeau believed in multi-culturalism and it was a great premise. We have benefitted greatly as a country. But once Trudeau left the Liberal Party, under the Chretien Martin years things went south. The system was under funded and the backlog began to build. They implemented what is essentially a head tax and the people immigrating didn't get any better service for their fees. They didn't sufficiently and efficiently fund settlement services. They didn't address the credential issue by working with provinces and professional associations to determine how best to recognize foreign credentials and determine what additional education or training might be needed.

    The Conservatives have only made things worse with Bill C50 (allowed to pass by the Liberals) which is an anti-democratic law that won't do anything to alleviate the current backlog. There is no additional funding for the system, no new consulates or embassies to help with processing applications.

    The only party that will address this situation. The only party to vote against Bill C50 is the New Democratic party. The NDP has taken up the mantle of Trudeau when it comes to the issue of immigration.

    Unite with Jack Layton and let's Defeat Stephen Harper.
  6. gao gao from Canada writes: Raf O... no, not most Asian come here as (upper) middle class. Most come here to make themselves (upper) middle class.

    My parents earn the minimum wage and work 70 hours a week. They always told us 'if you want a better life go get an education'. I thank them for that.
  7. Roop Misir from Toronto, Canada writes: Is there a similar situation in student performance in schools?
  8. Paul B from Vancouver, Canada writes: One of my neighbors, who arrived from Greece, speaks little English. However, he works hard and studied hard. He attended an ESL class at night, while worked at restaurant. Over the years, I saw his English improve. Few months ago, one of his sons became an RCMP officer.

    My other neighbor, who came from Taiwan, became the top real estate salesman in the Lower Mainland. It is fascinating to see him working all the time (literally).

    I am convinced that education and hard work can make anyone (immigrant or not) successful and financially secure. I attest to that.
  9. D. Wiltshire from Canada writes: I have to agree with Paul b that folks who want to come hear, work hard, and try to assimilate via language and cultural compromises will do better than those who don't. Unfortunately, those who aren't prepared to make a serious effort will start to chalk it up to racism as an easy out and carry a chip on their shoulder. Many people born in this country will migrate to other parts for opportunity when immigrants might prefer not to because others of similar background reside where they currently do. That's not to say there isn't racism in this country, but one has to be persistent and opportunistic whatever color or race they might be. That's just the hard knocks of the real world.
  10. Helge Naesgaard from Port Alberni, writes: I think there's are tremendous opportunities in Canada for anyone who's willing to move to where work is available. On Vancouver Island our communities are filling with older retired people while our school populations are shrinking. For some time now it seems that anyone who wants to work can easily find a job. Perhaps we need young immigrants to both work and to create a tax base to support the retirees.
    Helgie Naesgaard
  11. Hugh Andrew from Ottawa, Canada writes: This is a very dangerous area to comment on, especially to make generalizations. I make only five points: 1. Just as some object to negative generalizations against their group, to generalize against others, blaming others for discrimination is also objectionable and only leads to further division and attitudes that the complaining minority group are just whiners who should pull up their socks like everyone else. 2. The immigration policy is backward in that only about 18 - 20 percent of immigrants arrive based on merit; the remaining about 80 percent are family reunification. This means we largely have little control over the quality of immigrant. If the immigrants come from povery and little work ethic, there is a cause to expect that they may continue that culture here. Povery and strong work ethic and strong family or community support would tend to mitigate the negative potential. Most immigration should be based on merit. 3 Family reunification should generally only be allowed when the sponsoring family can afford to support the immigrant for ten years and this policy should be strongly enforced and the person(s) returned to where they came from if they have not been able to become contributing/ productive, integrated members of Canadian society in the time. 4. We greatly fail immigrants who qualify on merit. This must stop! We must speed up the system for quick arrival to meet job needs and we must do a far better job in helping them to meet local qualifications. 5. Illegals, unqualified and undesireables should be removed immediately and pay for their own appeals from outside of Canada, not remain here and have Canadian taxpayers foot the legal bill and, too often, their support.
  12. Ambrosia Miles from toronto, Canada writes: There are many factors that contribute to immigrants' ability to thrive in Canada. Thanks to the previous posters who rolled out all the stereotypes they asociate with certain groups' relative success or lack thereof. It is also fact that students of certain backgrounds, skin colours, etc. tend to be steered by educators here, from a very young age, towards less academic pursuits. This type of discrimination is incidious and often not conscious on the part of teachers/guidance counsellors, etc. Standards and expectations - and, consequently, support - are different, therfore, for a young black boy than his white or Chinese conterpart. I grew up in a very diverse, working class area and can remember many anecdotal incidents that attest to this disparity, but it has also been borne out by studies of North American education systems and educators over the years. With repsect to Asian immigrants in particular, I worked for many years with a community resource network that was, due to its area, largely geared towards new Chinese immigrants (that's right, those hard working Asians use your tax dollars to get a leg up too) and can make a few generalizations as to their relative success in Canada...First, they tend to have strong family and community ties (eg. relatives to live with, social and church groups that pooled resources, grandparents to look after children thus negating need for paid childcare, although we operated several daycare centres that catered to many Chinese families who didn't have this option and most were subsidized). Second, most were not refugees and did not come from the bottom rung of China's socioeconomic ladder, and were able to access higher education back home (read: most had degrees already).
  13. Hugh Andrew from Ottawa, Canada writes: Let's also be clear that there is nothing wrong with discrimination. We discriminate all the time. The merit system is discrimination as is any job qualification. Whether you choose one street or another to walk on at night is discrimination based on knowledge of risks involved, etc. To discriminate does not mean there is racism or adverse prejudice (prejudice can also be positive)
  14. Philip McRae from Vancouver, Canada writes: 'An articulate professional, Ms. Hines observed that she never encountered discrimination until she began studying for her master's degree at the University of Toronto. She was shocked to discover there were no other black students or lecturers.' >>>>. Is this an example of discrimination?
  15. Bob Macdonald from Liverpool, United Kingdom writes: The label 'immigrant' is only worthwhile as a statement of the person's recent arrival. It tells you absolutely nothing about their personal potential to succeed. And has been shown by experience people who come from cultures that are success-focused, tend to do better. Those who come from societies and cultures that have enjoyed decades of failure, tend to fail in Canada. It is also worth remembering that comparing your average native-born Canadian with a middle or upper middle class person with a university degree from a foreign country, is not fair. You would not move to India with a U of T medical degree and then chortle in the face of some guy from the lowest caste, calling them lazy for not doing well.
  16. Gardiner Westbound from Canada writes:
    Perhaps orientals success has something to do with working hard.
  17. Frank Lee My Dears I Don't Give A Damn from Toronto, Canada writes:
    And yet the west is flooded with immigrants wanting to get in (legal and illegal). So there must be something positive about life here, because there are so many wanting to be a Canadian, American, Brit, German, etc. Don't hear of many people clamoring to escape the wretched conditions in the west for the bountiful life in, for example, Russia do we?
  18. Lucas McCain from San Francisco de Macoris, Dominican Republic writes: Helge Naesgaard from Port Alberni, writes: I think there are tremendous opportunities in Canada for anyone who's willing to move to where work is available......

    So why is it that whenever a black person does not do well it is always the fault of the vile, evil white man who does everything possible to keep the black man from succeeding?

    There is a black man who was born in Harlem in 1937 to not particularly financially independent parents. His parents were Jamaican immigrants who stressed the importance of education and personal achievement. He grew up in the South Bronx.

    Now in spite of the evil, vile white man, he became one of the great success stories of our time.

    His name is Colin Luther Powell.

    He said: 'You look for something that you like, and something that you think you're pretty good at, and if you can put those two things together, then you're on the right track, and just drive on.'

    This son of poor immigrants, rose to hold some of the highest public offices in the United States.

    Success for every person in Canadian society is limited only by his or her own ability and his or her own dream.
  19. Walter Mak from Waterloo, Canada writes: I used to live in a high-density area with lots of immigrants in Toronto (Keele & Finch area). I used to spend allot of time at the library between Keele and Jane on Finch.

    What did I see there? In the evenings or on Saturday's there were lots of Asian families with their kids reading and learning, and very, very rarely some black children (usually without a parent).

    The population of that neighborhood is predominantly 'black' and it is a well-known high-crime rate area (gangs, guns, drugs). Education and looking to the next generation to improve the family’s lot is ingrained in the Asian (Chinese/Vietnamese) culture. There is really no other explanation.
  20. I vote ABC , Liberal after steve mocks planning to plan as panic ? from Canada writes:
    Is steve mocking senior Canadian economists meeting today ? Are they in panic mode ? Bet the spinners in the bunker are . Open the books and put together a plan harper . You may be a day late and a dollar short but we are still paying you .
  21. john may from writes: Roop Misir - In a study of students in UK schools the best performing students were Asian; the worst performing were white males from single oarent homes on welfare.
    The last paragraph of the article pretty much hits the nail on the head.
    Attitude and dedication trumps ethnicity every time.
  22. Fried Chicken from Kentucky, Canada writes: What we wear does not necessary reveal what is in our hearts. On any given day, if asked, anyone can say whatever they want to say about their religion and no one will challenge you.

    Wearing a Blue Jays baseball cap does not make you a baseball player.

    Let me also ask if anyone would object if, me, a man, were to start wearing a hijab or a burka or a yamika (spelling)?

    Discrimination happens everywhere on the planet and it is not always based on race or religion.

    What, pray tell, would happen to me if I showed up in Lahore Pakistan wanting to start a business?
  23. I vote ABC , Liberal after steve mocks planning to plan as panic ? from Canada writes:
    steve is making a feel good , look at the nothing we are doing plan type speech .

    He is a parent and knows how average Canadian parents feel ? Free house , big wage from taxpayers , big wage top up from reform alliance party , government paid drugs benefits , transportation and gold plated pension .

    harper is joe six pack , tim hortons , hockey dad who is afraid of questions or meeting the public ?
  24. Ambrosia Miles from toronto, Canada writes: Walter Mak from Waterloo, Canada writes: I used to live in a high-density area with lots of immigrants in Toronto (Keele & Finch area). I used to spend allot of time at the library between Keele and Jane on Finch.

    What did I see there? In the evenings or on Saturday's there were lots of Asian families with their kids reading and learning, and very, very rarely some black children (usually without a parent).

    The population of that neighborhood is predominantly 'black' and it is a well-known high-crime rate area (gangs, guns, drugs). Education and looking to the next generation to improve the family’s lot is ingrained in the Asian (Chinese/Vietnamese) culture. There is really no other explanation.

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    I agree about the emphasis on education, Walter, but is there really NO other explanation whatsoever, Walter? Remember the black male law student who got called a 'ghetto dude' in a government email regarding his application? How many Vic Tran's or Yan Lim's do you think get labeled in that manner? And if you think that's an isolated example of discrimination, I know a few Jeromes, Jermaines and Darnells who'd beg to differ.
  25. A D from oakville, Canada writes: I'm wondering, latin americans....are we talking the latin version of Canada's first nations? or the white/asian latin immigrants that live in Oakville and work downtown?
  26. Buddy Canada from Toronto, Canada writes: Wow this is some surprise. Of course the cries of racism abound. Perhaps what should be examined more is people that are willing to work harder for the opportunities that are available.
  27. Ambrosia Miles from toronto, Canada writes: Whoops, sorry Walter, threw your name in my post above one too many times (typo).
  28. D Le5 from Canada writes: 'no other explaination' - there some smart thinking going on. It is that black or white thinking that prevents some from understanding bigger issues.
    As some have pointed out already - peoples backgrounds play a part in success as well. If you are coming from an upper middle class lifestyle you just may fair better in Canada than if you are coming from a country steeped in poverty and/or violence.
    Perhaps a breakdown of who is coming to Canada by $ would help understand this issue better. I work with many Asians who were sent to Canada by their parents who can afford to send them here to school with nice cars/clothes and not have to work while at school (but some do anyway) and get good jobs.
  29. Andrew E from Canada writes: Canadian born Muslim from Ottawa, Canada writes: The employers should better get their acts together and end their racism towards visible minorities. The ones majoring in the sciences, businesses, public administration, engineering and the social sciences are the visible minorities, and to no suprise, the Caucasian students are dropping out in large numbers because they can't balance their education with their drunken parties they hold every day.

    >> I hired a Muslim once, thought to myself, you know, this guy needs a hand up, in a new and often prejudiced country. Charming fellow. Turns out he lied on his resume. Really lied. Shame on me for not testing him beforehand. He couldn't do half of what he claimed. Afterward, when I got calls to check his references, I told his prospective employers of my experience.
    Could this be considered racist?
    Nice dig at the Christian students, BTW.
  30. J Kooman from Canada writes:

    G&M gave the article a misleading title. 'Immigrants face growing economic mobility gap' is not the key note of the article. The article really points parity observed across race line.

    I am concern that the article is promoting the perception of Asian generation X superiority; claims that they are better education, better networked, financially more successful, and ... (the future of Canada??)

    That is another form of promotion of discrimination.

    ...
  31. Dean the machine from Victoria, Canada writes: People should stop using the term visible minority, and all policies that assume white males own the planet should be eliminated. What this article is saying is that term is meaningless. People should extrapolate what's happening regionally here as well, since this implies that Vancouver has an immigrant upper-middle class and Toronto has an immigrant working class. This is a failure of multiculturalism. This is not a good thing! This is not integration, it's racist little enclaves, it is not ethical progress that some of them happen to be wealthy.
  32. sue boohoo from Canada writes: I am so sick and tired of hearing about the plight of immigrants.Why did they come? Free welfare housing, free medicare, to be placed on the rolls of Ontario Social Services.?Or to play a role in the the affirmative action politics when in their homeland they wouldn't have even been looked at?

    How about the immigrants who used to come to this country, without ever having looked back at the horrors of their 'native' lands. They didn't arrive here with their arms out to grab the freebies. They came to LIVE here as a choice, and made do.

    Go back to where you came from-if you do not like it here: And don't feign racism. That card has burnt.
  33. John Smith from Canada writes: For those questioning the efforts of some groups, consider these findings from census. 'These results are consistent with census findings on an older population (aged 25 to 37), which showed that second-generation men whose parents came from Africa, Asia, the Caribbean, or Central and South America, and most of whom are visible minorities, HAD EQUAL OR GREATER LEVELS OF EDUCTION BUT LOWER EARNINGS than those with parents from traditional source countries in North America, and Northern and Western Europe.

    So yes, a black kid can get ahead with maximum effort, if they try at least twice as hard. Maybe your idea of a fair country and society is one that thinks its okay to discriminate and then blame the person because they didn't try harder. Certainly not how I define fairness.
  34. Canadian Eh from Canada writes: First, the post who said the only one who could help this country is Jack Layton is incorrect. Jack Layton is a wolf in sheep's clothing and his wife is an Idiot!

    Second, when you arrive in this country and refuse to accept that English or French are the only official languages of Canada and in reality that of the working world, then you will not succeed. The Asians who arrive are well aware of this. They also study harder than most of the cultures in order to succeed. I applaud them for this. Unfortunately, for certain black cultures (not all), there is an expectancy that the government will provide for them. They need education that this is not the case and that in order to rise above poverty levels, they need to educate to survive in a better economic forum.

    Third, IRPA is the worst trash document ever contrived. The system is broken and needs to be rehauled.
  35. Fake Name from Canada writes: ' NOTAFAN OFTHEFEDS from Canada writes: Those bad white people, have all of the power and through soem grande scheme, hidden from the eyes of the world are able to pick winners and losers.'

    Maybe they're all agents of the NWO. Or the illuminati. Or the reptilians?

    Conspiracy theories abound.
  36. Bobby Del Rio from Toronto, Canada writes: A few points. 1. I don't think it does anybody any good to make ridiculous generalizations about people's cultures. Let's stop bashing white/black/Chinese/Muslim/etc citizens, shall we? Most people have been pretty fair, but some people have just been ignorant. That does NOT help this complex discussion. 2. I run an anti-racism organization. I have found that my African-Canadian friends/colleagues DO experience more overt racism than my friends/colleagues from other racial groups. It is not the only determinant of success/failure, but I think we should accept it IS a factor. There are cultural factors that separates the African-Canadian community as distinct. 3. For every visible minority who has succeeded, somebody has failed. The same is true of Caucasians. Perhaps the only thing we can deduce with certainty is that individual acumen/work ethic is the major determinant in dictating economic mobility. With that said, I think it's important to identify that contextualizing that individuality is a set of cultural parameters - which don't necessarily dictate the outcome, but do colour it (pardon the pun). Perhaps we can learn more about our collective propensity to succeed by analyzing race as ONE of the factors contributing to one's economic position. Again, it's clearly not the ONLY factor (in either a positive or negative way), but it is interesting to dissect what kind of influence a person's culture/ancestry has on one's ability to excel within a capitalist hierarchy. In summation, let's try to keep an open mind. Making generalizations about people's cultures are hurtful and ignorant, but asking questions and trying to understand this complicated phenomenon will bring us all a step closer to understanding one another. Bobman
  37. Vivaldo Latoche from Ottawa, Canada writes: In life, there are two main ingredients for success. One, education and two, hard work=work ethics. Without these two main factors, people will be always at a lower scale whether they are Blacks, Whites, Asians, Latins, or Arabs.

    On the other hand, one cannot deny that there is discrimination in Canada . This has always existed and will continue to exist in every society around the world and not only in Canada. So let's stop blaming discrimination as a source of impediment to advance in life.
    But what is clear is that without the skills and creativity to offer to the market, as well as, to the public business, one cannot go too far.
  38. Beth T from Canada writes: I dont think it has anything to do with what your skin colour is or what language you speak. In order to make something of yourself you have to want it and believe you can reach it. You have to always make yourself a better person. I wasn't always praised about my work. I was told what I did wrong in order to improve myself. You have to know your faults or else you can never reach your full potential. It doesn't matter if your parents are poor or rich, as long as you want to do it, there's always a way.
  39. Edward Carson from Canada writes: There are very few instances of mulitple families in one house splitting the bills amoungst blacks and whites compared to Asian families. I'm curious as to how much 'spare' money would be left for schooling if the property tax on those dwellings were adjusted accordingly to represent what the single family pays on each of those in residence?
  40. polar camel from Canada writes: Some things don't change much over the centuries. What matters most regarding the education and upbringing is what's given at home. It doesn't have to be money or other goods, but there must be the set of values including respect for education which will give next generations chances to prosper in life.
    The black professional woman depicted in the article asks what do the other communities do to ensure their children successes and progress. Well, it's rather simple - they spend time with the kids, challenge them with high expectations, punish for misbehaviour. Look at the most prominen black woman on our continent - Condolezza Rice - her parents were demanding, supportive, and not very much forgiving. And they should be the model to follow for any ambitious parents... black and no-black!
  41. SN Dream from Canada writes: John Smith from Canada writes: For those questioning the efforts of some groups, consider these findings from census. 'These results are consistent with census findings on an older population (aged 25 to 37), which showed that second-generation men whose parents came from Africa, Asia, the Caribbean, or Central and South America, and most of whom are visible minorities, HAD EQUAL OR GREATER LEVELS OF EDUCTION BUT LOWER EARNINGS than those with parents from traditional source countries in North America, and Northern and Western Europe.

    So yes, a black kid can get ahead with maximum effort, if they try at least twice as hard. Maybe your idea of a fair country and society is one that thinks its okay to discriminate and then blame the person because they didn't try harder. Certainly not how I define fairness.
    --------------------------------
    So why does Indian(from India) doing so much better?? White ppl just stop discriminate against Indian after the 1st generation???

    What new immigrant face are the unjustifiable emphasis of Canadian experience. My coworker who came from India had a lot of trouble starting her career because company just reject her base on her lack of Canadian experience or she's overqualify.

    She finished her master degree from UT after she came to Canada and she was a director at IBM India, if she's having such a hard time with such qualification, I can't imagine what hardship the other new immigrant are facing.
  42. Fake Name from Canada writes: ' Ambrosia Miles from toronto, Canada writes: I agree about the emphasis on education, Walter, but is there really NO other explanation whatsoever, Walter? Remember the black male law student who got called a 'ghetto dude' in a government email regarding his application?'

    I'm sorry, but would you hire someone for a professional job if they come to the interview wearing dreadlocks, as he was when speaking about the 'discrimination' he endured to tv reporters? I wouldn't show up to an important interview in sneakers and torn jeans, then whine that they were being mean about my background when I didn't get the job. If you dress or groom yourself to look unprofessional, is it any wonder that people are going to assume you are unprofessional?

    In an ideal world people would be evaluated purely on merit, but appearances do count. And dreadlocks, just like any other unorthodox haircut or clothing style, simply don't convey an image of professionalism.
  43. Fake Name from Canada writes: PS for anyone who's going to say dreadlocks are a religious symbol for rastafarians, and I'm being cruel to deem the style unprofessional, I'd just like to inform you that the noodly Flying Spaghetti Monster hat with eyes made of meatballs is a requirement for devout FSM cultists. It's two feet wide and eighteen inches tall, and must be worn in the workplace at all times. Firing devout FSM cultists for expressing their beliefs henceforth constitutes an attack on our religious rights, and will be taken before the BC Human Rights Tribunal, even if the firing takes place elsewhere, because we know the BC HRT invariably finds in favour of the complainant.
  44. Loudan Bellicose from Canada writes: Canadian Born Muslim, that was a very racist remark that you made, I am offended and so is all Caucasians.
    You should be reported to the HRC.
    How can the Globe and Mail allow this sort of commenting?
    How racist of the Globe and Mail!
  45. little bear from Canada writes: In watching the Latinos, Asians who have come here with very little English work hard, get the education they require and they mostly prosper and in a few years gain control of their lives and do well and live well.

    My experience with the blacks (with some exceptions) is that they are always looking for a problem (and usually find it) work only as hard as they have to and take whatever they can get without working for it.

    With all the Phillipinos, Latinos and Asians (east Indians, Chinese etc.) in my neighbourhood we have no problems and I don't even blink when encountering them but the few blacks we have, are causing problems.

    If that is racist so be it, but that is my experience.

  46. Kanti Makan from Canada writes: Forty years ago I arrived in Canada with an engineering degree. Like immigrants from all countries it took me a while to get a job in my field. During that time I worked in factories and took night courses at colleges and univerisities in Toronto to further my education and get my professional accreditation. I looked upon those experiences as adventure and I did not feel sorry for myself or others in similar circumstances. When in the mid-seventies I started studying business at nights at York U. most of my classes had a majority of white students (including a large percentage of women), followed by considerable number of Chinese students, some 'south Asians' like myself, and a miniscule number of blacks or Latinos. Since this was post-grad studies all of us had undergrad degrees but many of us tended to be engineers. Canada affords us ample opportunities to further our careers and job opportunities. All we need to do is take those opportunities by making sacrifices. Going to night school for years to get one's MBA or whatever requires that you give up other pursuits, and while there may not be a guarantee of a better job at the end, your chances are vastly improved, and furthermore, it is one helluva ride. I can attest that the family and community culture of the Chinese and South Asians encourage and support personal development. But so dothe cultures of many other white communities. Ultimately, it also falls upon the individual to transcend his/her limitations. All Canadians, native born and immigrants, should really appreciate what great opportunities our country provides to ALL its citizens compared to the hundreds of other countries around the world.
  47. James Meatball from Beamsville, Canada writes: Hugh Andrew, Walter Mak and others making sensible comments here had better be careful. I hope you didn't use your real names. Apologists for the 'under-performers' will certainly report you to the thought police. Oh...I should say 'human rights commission'...
  48. little bear from Canada writes: SN I am now retired but while working for a very large organization one of the problems I encountered was trying to determine the value of the education that foreighn applicants had.

    I might be different now but then when they showed up with a piece of paper from some University in the back woods of India, I could not determine if is was a recognised school or something their uncle set up in his back room.

    At the time we would have often over 50 applicants for a job and you fit the interviews in with your other duties. You did not have the time to spend days trying to track down and investigate each applicant so you went with the ones readily verified.

    I hired many many people of different racial groups and in fact my replacement was a man Africa who was East Indian. He went to a recognized school in Kenya, he was bright and a hard worker.

    The only problem I ever had with race was from two blacks.
  49. Hugh Andrew from Ottawa, Canada writes: Perhaps I'm part of a 'backlash' but I wish people would just get on with doing their best and stop whining.

    Our Multi-cultural vision has worked to a considerable degree; but, time and population has changed and it is time to redefine our identity. Inter-racial marriages are increasingly common, particularly in the Vancouver area, and the category labelled 'visible minority' is increasingly inappropriate. What category is the blond blue-eyed, caucasian looking, indian from an Ontario reserve? Also, I expect to have a grandchild that is of mixed race. That child will have all the benefits of a middle class family and, being mixed race, will probably have the darker genes dominating therefore being 'visible'. Which race will he/ she be? Will he/ she be labelled 'minority'?
    We need a major overhaul of our definitions relating to national and individual identities.
    As I said at the beginning of this comment 'Stop the whining!'. There are very large numbers of successful role models of each race to demonstrate success is possible for everyone. Everyone has 'disappointments' and racism is just too easy a cop-out cry.
  50. Loudan Bellicose from Canada writes: Kanti Makan from Canada, your attitude is what we should look for in immigrants.
    People like you will always succeed.
    Your color and religion is irrelevant.
    It is too bad that we do not get many immigrants like you.
  51. Juan Valdez from Canada writes: Immigrants who came to Canada pre and post WW11 were generally from Eastern Europe and were mostly uneducated. My parents who came before the Great Depression say there was no government help. If they applied for relief (welfare) they would be sent back. They worked hard for meagre wages yet managed to buy a home and educate their children who would reap the rewards of their coming to Canada. These immigrants made Canada what it is today and which is attracting the new class of immigrant. The major difference seems to be that the former immigrants integrated into Canadian society, wanted to be here and adopted Canada as their home. They were thankful for any job and had a tremendous work ethic. That cannot be said for every culture as there are some who see themselves as above doing any menial work and use the racist card at every opportunity. Although previous immigrants lived near one another after arrival, they soon dispersed and lived in every quadrant of the city. Todays immigrants tend to stay living in ethnic enclaves that recreate their homeland, don't integrate and assimilate into Canadian society, have a sense of entitlement for having the government look after them and sadly lack the desire to be Canadian. These immigrants who live in enclaves are often exploited by members of their own culture (farm workers in the Fraser Valley, etc) and their success as an immigrant is often llimited by these factors. There are far too many immigrants arriving from South Asia, Asia, the middle east and far too many under the class of family reunification. The immigrant from eastern Europe is almost non-existent and yet these people have been proven to integrate well, are well educated, speak English and have a strong work ethic. The reduction of immigrants from these countries accounts for the huge imbalance being seen in the Canadian population. Many of todays immigrants have too many children to afford them the kind of education that will lead to success.
  52. Woman of Reason from UK, Canada writes: 'Ambrosia Miles' above writes about the insidious discrimination against black students who are subtly pushed towards less academic pursuits. This seems like a nebulous and vague explanation for glaring statistical differences and one that I find hard to accept given that the education system is steeped in anti-racist, anti-discrimination philosophy. I wonder if the author would accept that the education system alone is not solely responsible for a child’s success or failure. Presumably, their parent’s play, or should play, an even larger role than the state in their education and upbringing. What these statistics demonstrate is that the failure of immigrants to succeed has nothing to do with the system – the system works! Canada is an open and accepting nation where immigrants have enormous opportunities, but they have to want to succeed.
  53. Bobby Del Rio from Toronto, Canada writes: Kanti Makan, that's a great post. Truly. :)

    For everyone else, I agree that hard work and education are the most important determinants of success. But let's also accept that there are roadblocks that limit visible minorities. I personally believe all roadblocks can be overcome, but as an inclusive, equitable society, we must endeavour to limit the roadblocks for ALL people.

    Bobman
  54. Loudan Bellicose from Canada writes: It is racist to be racist!
  55. Chris E. from Canada writes: Time for the media to take its first fledgling steps into the world of race realism.
  56. d v from Ottawa, Canada writes: Canadian born Muslim from Ottawa, Canada ... Those of us who lived abroad in other parts of the world know how things are on the other side of the coin. We know how 'well' treated Filipino maids are in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. We know how willing gov'ts in those countries are to stem the abuse of domestic and other labour workers. We know how really upset 'moderate Muslims' were in Malaysia and Singapore about 9-11 (end sarcasm). So, please....

    My personal philosophy is to try to be open-minded about whoever I meet, suspend judgement and gradually see what they're like.
  57. little bear from Canada writes: Kanti Makan Great post and I wish there were thousands more like you coming to Canada.

    As a white Algo I am getting to be a minority in my neighbourhood and that does not bother me one bit.

    Too bad we cannot clone you.
  58. Beth T from Canada writes: I think there are roadblocks that face every immigrant. My parents moved here and didn't know anyone. We (the kids) had to fight through everything because for example we didn't have connections to help us find jobs. We got jobs based on who we were. There were jobs we didn't get and some we did and we aren't visible minorities. It made us better people. But no matter who you are, everyone comes here facing the same things. Europeans who came right after WW2 came with nothing. Very little money and kids however they had technical skills that helped build this country. They worked hard and didn't ask for handouts because there was no money for handouts.
  59. M M from canada, Canada writes: Regardless of your background if you have the skills and education required you will do well - if you add hard work onto those basics you will do well. But all too often immigrants have been sold a bill of goods that understates the education and skills that they really need to work in Canada. I don't know who is a fault for that, but the way our immigration system is structured has certainly contributed to it.
  60. HRC Thought Police from Canada writes: Loudan Bellicose from Canada writes: Canadian Born Muslim, that was a very racist remark that you made, I am offended and so is all Caucasians.
    You should be reported to the HRC.
    How can the Globe and Mail allow this sort of commenting?
    How racist of the Globe and Mail!
    ---------------

    Don't you know by now that here in Canada, discrimination is only a one-way street!
  61. Genia 11 from Mississauga, Canada writes: My parents came to Canada 16 years ago. They spoke no English nor French. During the first year in Montreal, they scrapped whatever they had and bought a convenience store. They worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. While they didn't expect us to become doctors and lawyers, they continued to emphasize the importance of education. They paid for our education. They often would tell us that that is the most important investment they are making in their and our lives.

    My mom would say:'we are not rich and cannot buy you a condo or a car, but we are hoping that the education that we paid for can allow you to buy that in the future'. I fully understand that and will be passing that along to my children.

    I think regardless of where you come from, as long as you work hard, you can succeed. However, education does make life a little easier.
  62. Dean the machine from Victoria, Canada writes: First, it's probably worth mentioning that a higher percentage of african immigrants are refugees than are asian immigrants. I know the tried to control for that by comparing those with similar education, but I don't think that controls for everything.

    Also, I agree with the earlier posters - it's all about the mothers and the homelife. I hope Asians can keep that cultural value and help everyone else relearn it.

    Little bear - so please expand on that. Are you happy being the poor white minority or the poor upper-middle class minority? As a younger person who just graduated from a university where I was the only white person in most of my classes, I'd say that most of those white people happy being a minority are only saying that because they don't feel any squeeze.
  63. Save our Planet from Toronto, Canada writes: Income Caps - the only way to solve this problem that perpetuates poverty. Why does a white male working in Alberta as a laborer make $200k/year where a factory worker in Ontario making $20k???? Where is the economic fairness in this?
  64. Beth T from Canada writes: Genia 11 from Mississauga, Canada writes: My parents came to Canada 16 years ago. They spoke no English nor French. During the first year in Montreal, they scrapped whatever they had and bought a convenience store. They worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. While they didn't expect us to become doctors and lawyers, they continued to emphasize the importance of education. They paid for our education. They often would tell us that that is the most important investment they are making in their and our lives. My mom would say:'we are not rich and cannot buy you a condo or a car, but we are hoping that the education that we paid for can allow you to buy that in the future'. I fully understand that and will be passing that along to my children. I think regardless of where you come from, as long as you work hard, you can succeed. However, education does make life a little easier. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I totally agree. thats the same what my parents told me. they would rather invest into my education because that is something i can build on and noone can ever take that away from me. Education no matter if its a trade or university was very important to my parents.
  65. john may from writes: Kanti Makan & Juan Valdez - your comments should be printed and posted in every immigration office overseas, every school in Canada and mailed out by every MP.
    If you came to Canada before 1960 then, people like early settlers, war brides etc ; they are the ones who built this country. Those of us who arrived post 1960, well we just changed the decor because the house was built, painted and furnished. Sure I made a contribution but it pales to those who really built this country with hard work and sacrifice.
  66. Lowen Wrainger from Canada writes: It can't be the food they ate as babies, or can it? Ok, let's just can it!
  67. HRC Thought Police from Canada writes: Save our Planet from Toronto, Canada writes: Income Caps - the only way to solve this problem that perpetuates poverty. Why does a white male working in Alberta as a laborer make $200k/year where a factory worker in Ontario making $20k???? Where is the economic fairness in this?
    -----

    The answer is quite simple. If you want to make $200,000 a year there is nothing stopping you from moving to Alberta or the Yukon.

    Your choice: It is called supply and demand.
  68. little bear from Canada writes: Dean the machine. I guess at this point I don't feel a squeeze but live in an older home (1968) vintage. Many of my neighbours live in better homes than I have and certainly drive better cars than I do, but so what?

    Most of my neighbours are immigrants from somewhere but all seem to work, earn a living and are friendly.

    Perhaps I don't have the same sensitivities that some do but I really don't give a damn who or what you are and even at times when I am the only white in the group again so what? Does not bother me one bit. I am no better nor worse than any of them regardless of their status or money or home they live in or anything else.

    Have a loving Wife and at my age will probably be dead in ten years so perhaps that makes a difference?

    We are all just trying to make a go of life.
  69. greg panke from Canada writes: Multi-culturalism and Political Correctness (PC) are responsible for a lot of these problems, too many immigrants seem to think they can bring their bad habits and out-dated beliefs with them, believing that because Canada is supposedly multi-cultural that they can live here just like in the old country, and still enjoy the benefits that Canada can offer; many others choose to involve themselves in Canadian culture and work hard, these are the ones who tend to be successful, not just in their business dealings but in life generally.

    The PC concept may have made sense originally but it is finally coming to an end; a system in which everybody passes in school, and, for a while, everybody got a mortgage can not be supported forever. It is becoming apparent that the excesses of our PC choked system do not work, much like communism.
  70. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: part of the reason the Chinese are now moving ahead of whites is because for many the SOLE PURPOSE of moving to Canada is to utilize our educational system. This is a far cry from the original concept of the purpose of Canadian immigration.
  71. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: Canadians immigration system is garbage.

    The points system brings in people that the economy cannot employ. Thus, PhD's cleaning toilets.

    We should make immigration based on 1. Employment; and 2. Family reunification.

    No more points system. It sounded great in theory, in practice we've learned IT DOESN'T WORK! The government simply is unable to correctly assess ones credentials for work in the private economy.
  72. Common Sense Matters from Canada writes: Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: part of the reason the Chinese are now moving ahead of whites is because for many the SOLE PURPOSE of moving to Canada is to utilize our educational system ____________ Are you saying whites are not as smart as the Chinese? Maybe our schools are giving preference to Chinese first? Discriminating against the whites? Next time before you make an idiotic statement, think first.
  73. Ashoke Sharma from Winnipeg, Canada writes: Last year, a Toronto Sun-Leger Marketing poll found about 50% of Canadians admit being racist.

    While attending a technical college in 2006, I left the class for a moment to make a phone call. As I re-entered the classroom, the teacher was saying, 'Your white skins are your greatest assets.' He faltered on seeing me, but repeated the words as I took my seat.

    Consequently there can be no denying racial discrimination in Canada, though immigrants stay because the standard of living is higher than in their old countries.

    The solution may lie in legislating a hiring quota system for employers.
  74. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes: perhaps you also find this to be a foolish comment:

    -That multiculturalism policy had contributed to this confusion was reflected in comments made by former prime minister Pierre Trudeau in 1995.

    When asked what he thought of how multicultural policy had evolved since he launched it more than two decades earlier,
    he responded to the effect that it had been twisted to celebrate a newcomer’s country of origin rather than a celebration of the newcomer becoming part of the Canadian fabric.
  75. free thinker (aka penseur libre) from Canada writes: If this was only about 'work ethic' I can say after having spent a year in Africa that Africans should be doing very well indeed. Almost everyone there except for the crooks at the top work very very hard because it's the only way to survive. If work doesn't scare them in their countries of origin, I don't see why it'd be any different here.
  76. Lexus Spyder from Toronto, Canada writes:

    My observation is that Canada, except for the minorities, is by and large multi-racist. Most anglo-Canadians are FAKE - they are polite but only on the outside, deep down they harbour racist sentiments.

    Ride the TTC subway and see for yourself the discrimination - for example, no one sits beside a black fella.

    Canada - what a dump!
  77. Hero Hero from Canada writes: My father, an immigrant, arrived to Canada in 1972. His credentials were not accepted. Rather than whine about it, he worked hard in physical labour jobs, and made sure his family had gotten some relevant education.

    Today's immigrants are a different group altogether. Just one week off the plane, and they cry racism that they have not been hired as Director of IT for a large bank.
  78. free thinker (aka penseur libre) from Canada writes: Hero Hero from Canada writes: 'Today's immigrants are a different group altogether. Just one week off the plane, and they cry racism that they have not been hired as Director of IT for a large bank.'
    -----
    I hope you realize how ridiculous you sound.
  79. Wicked Messenger from Vancouver, Canada writes:
    Lexus Spyder- let me offer a different perspective- what you percieve as hatred is in fact RESENTMENT. Alot of this is directed at our government for turning Canada into an identity-less country without ever asking Canadians what they wanted for the future of their country.

    Face it- it would be NO DIFFERENT in Korea as an example if the Korean government started bringing in so many whites that Korea began to look like a western, caucasian city. This so-called racism is not EXCLUSIVE to whites.

    This cultural shift has happened very quickly- not only were Canadian never asked if we wanted so-called multiculturalism, but we have had to adapt very quickly- rememeber that Canada has been turned upside down from a cultural perspective within 20-30 years. Again, our government NEVER EVEN ASKED US if we wanted this,

    Furthermore their motivation has NOTHING to do with equality of races, and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that the Canadian Goverment WANTS MONEY- so much so they are willing to flush Canadian culture( ie First Nations, and English and French post-European culture) down the drain to get at immigrant money.
  80. Common Sense Matters from Canada writes: Wicked Messenger, just wonder how you survive living in multicultural Vancouver? Take another pill!
  81. O N from Canada writes: lexus spyder

    If Canada is a dump - why dont you go back to the dump you came from?

    is someone forcing you to stay here?
  82. Hero Hero from Canada writes: No promises were made that upon arrival to Canada, all will be given professional jobs.

    If Canadians moved to China or India, would they be treated any differently? Would they all be given professional jobs, at the expense of their home-grown people?

    Canada's generosity has caused this mess.

    If people don't like it, they can go back.
  83. A S from Toronto, Canada writes: Juan Valdez, I believe you misread the article. You state 'There are far too many immigrants arriving from South Asia...' vs Eastern Europe and imply that's a big problem, when in fact, the article states Chinese and South Asians outperform other minority groups. Education, family support and financial independence are huge priorities for them which is why their children fare so well vs. other minority groups INCLUDING those of European descent. Added bonus? The new generation is much more involved OUTSIDE their parents' community base. Also, they don't have that sense of entitlement others may have, ie. long summer/Christmas vacations, etc... This is a great country with fantastic opportunities if you're ready to work for it.
  84. Chris E. from Canada writes: Why flounder in the dark when there's historical prece