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Budgets may not be balanced: Duncan

KAREN HOWLETT

Globe and Mail Update

Latest comment posted at 6:30 PM EST 08/10/08

Ontario finance minister warns global financial crisis will make it difficult to guarantee province won't fall into deficit ...Read the full article

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  1. mary walsh with the big gun rack from Canada writes: Thanks for coming out Duncan.
  2. J Birch from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    An honest and candid remark - he should be respected for being forthcoming.

    Not all politicians are a like

    .
  3. J M from Toronto, writes: Interesting place for the Globe and Mail to announce that Runciman has putsched out John Tory as Conservative Leader ;)
  4. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    And so it begins.

    This is going to get very, very ugly.
  5. Fred Draper from Kingston, Canada writes: Clearly we haven't recovered from Flaherty and Harris yet.

    I just thought I'd get that in before some lib did.
  6. Ollie Tabuger from Canada writes: "Fred Draper from Kingston, Canada writes: Clearly we haven't recovered from Flaherty and Harris yet."

    I figure Dalton and Dwight will be able to use those two whipping boys for another 3-4 years to account for all the troubles that Ontario is having.

    What's amazing is how many Ontarians will buy into that reasoning. Harris hasn't been Premier for more than six years, yet his ghost lives on.

    One day Dalton will have to look into the mirror and realize that these problems are and have been happening under his watch, and that his can and should act on them instead of just burying his head in the sand like he has been doing.

    C'mon Dalton - Cowboy Up! You don't always have to do nothing when the choices are between doing something and nothing.

    Also...Dwight everyone and his mother have known about the state of the economy in Ontario. You're a day late and a dollar short.
  7. Greg Van Zandt from Canada writes: Has there ever been a Liberal premier of Ontario that has not left us in deficit?

    Seriously?
  8. jack Bauer from Canada writes: J. Birch writes: An honest and candid remark - he should be respected for being forthcoming.

    Not all politicians are a like
    _____________________________________________________
    Honesty out of the McGuinty government...mmmmm J. Birch the doctor called and your brain is ready to be picked up
  9. Systemic Risk from Canada writes: Ontario is in for some tough times but to those who want to blame a government that hasn't been in power for 5 years should ask themselves why McGuinty and his crew have spent every single penny of new tax revenue that has come into the treasury (about $25 billion per year now) -not a penny for debt repayment, certainly not a penny for tax cuts. So how well prepared for a recession is Ontario, especially with all the big unions up for contract negotiations? Who wins the award for fiscal rectitude? $5.6 billion will look like a cakewalk in comparison I'm afraid.
  10. Royal City Pundit from Canada writes: Ollie Tabuger from Canada writes:

    What's amazing is how many Ontarians will buy into that reasoning. Harris hasn't been Premier for more than six years, yet his ghost lives on.

    Well Ollie, the Harrisites blamed the NDP for eight years for everything. So Dalt has another 3 years to go before he matches that dubious record. At least he is honest enough to admit there might be a deficit as opposed to Harris/Flaherty or Eves/ Ecker who lied for years about a non existant surplus. Once again, it took a Liberal government to clean up a Conservative financial mess. Just like it took Chretien and Martin to clean up Mulroney's financial mess. History shows that, contarary to popular belief, Conservatives are terrible economic managers.
  11. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>J Birch from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>An honest and candid remark - he should be respected for being forthcoming.

    Well of course!

    Now had it been a Conservative government in Ontario then you would be saying that it was fiscal mismangement, right?
  12. Jeff S from Canada writes: But surely we are going to close those pesky coal fired power plants and start building wind and solar farms and other forms of alternative energy.

    Mother Earth can't wait, we need to act now even if we don't have the money! Spend. Spend. Spend.
  13. Systemic Risk from Canada writes: Royal City Pundit - sorry but Mulroney inherited the biggest fiscal deficit in Cdn history ($40 billion in 1984 or 10% of GDP from Trudeau - that would be $130 billion today...) - Mulroney simple wasn't able to clean up a mess that big in 8 years (also because any cuts Conservatives do make has them attacked as heartless monsters, whereas Liberals are hailed for their "pragmatism"). Mulroney did set the stage for Martin though, and got the operating budget well into surplus but the 90-92 recession didn't help. Just a little reality for your revisionism.
  14. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>Future budgets may not be balanced: Duncan

    So what did this new health tax do for us?

    It was the largest tax increase in Ontario history and he still can't balance the budget.
  15. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: Uh oh, deficit!!! Quick! Let's raise corporate taxes again! Punish those big bad profitable companies for daring to invest here!

    PUNISH THEM!!!!! GO NDP GO!!!!!
  16. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    If all this financial crisis is a result of Bush style neo-con thinking, as all you Liberal supporters would have us believe, then why are European banks and credit markets falling just as bad, if not worse, than the US?

    Shouldn't everything be fine over there in European socialist wonderland?
  17. Chris S from Guelph, Canada writes: Systemic Risk makes a valid point in noting that people are a little too hard on Mulroney for the financial mess of the early 1990's without giving enough of the blame to the Liberals from whom he inherited large deficits. However, this should be applied uniformly, such as for the McGuinty Liberals taking over from the Harris/Eves Conservatives. The second point about the recession is also noteworthy, as many love to trash Bob Rae for his financial stewardship without factoring in that he took over at the beginning of a recession.

    Governments rarely deserve all the credit or blame for the way the economy performs...there are simply far too many factors at work here, many of which are beyond the control of federal or provincial governments. The partisanship that is displayed both by political parties and individual posters is often frustrating and only serves to obscure in a fog of lies and misinterpretations the policies put forward by our politicians. Widespread voter disillusionment seems to be the end result.
  18. spicydoc of the spring from Canada writes:

    Duncan also said that now wasn't the time for Dion's Green Shift.

    Duncan is an idiot. Dion's plan will fix everything!! Just ask him!!
  19. Sarah Bee from Canada writes: Chris S - very nicely put.
  20. Mike Milne from Canada writes:
    Here some interesting stats on the radio re the Carbon Tax / Green Shift:

    - Truckers association said additional expenses would be $146 million per year (diesel tax increase)
    - OC transpo and the Toronto School Board would have additional expenses of $3.5 million and $1.6 million per year (not sure which is associated to which - the clip was too fast).

    What about every other bus service and school board across the country?

    Don Drummond - Chief Economist for TD called the Carbon Tax "sensible" but further stated to CBC news on June 18th 2008
    that "I THINK it will be revenue neutral, but there will be no individual or company in the country that will exactly get back what it pays back in carbon tax." "There will be a lot of winners and a lot of losers."

    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/18/liberal-carbon-plan.html

    Sounds like transit users and students (and parents) will be the losers.
  21. Prsn Nep from Canada writes: Calm down, boys. No one is blaming Harper for the current mess.
  22. Prsn Nep from Canada writes: Nor is anybody blaming Harris.
  23. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>Chris S from Guelph, Canada writes: Governments rarely deserve all the credit or blame for the way the economy performs...there are simply far too many factors at work here, many of which are beyond the control of federal or provincial governments. The partisanship that is displayed both by political parties and individual posters is often frustrating and only serves to obscure in a fog of lies and misinterpretations the policies put forward by our politicians. Widespread voter disillusionment seems to be the end result.

    Chris, I agree.

    What annoys me however is that Liberal party supporters seem to be the bigger violators of what you describe.

    Just look at these forums.

    For example, Liberal supporters remember McGuinty inheriting a deficit from the Conservatives, but they don't remember Harris inheriting a HUGE deficit from the NDP. And they don't remember Bob Rae inheriting a deficit from David Peterson. A deficit that in adjusted dollar terms was probably larger than what the Conservatives gave to McGuinty.

    Sure, we can talk about who did what to whom. But don't be so partisan, try to be fair.
  24. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: Prsn Nep from Canada writes: Calm down, boys. No one is blaming Harper for the current mess.

    =================================================

    Obviously you haven't read beyond this thread.

    Harper gets blamed for the price of oil and gas, the crisis south of the border, the state of the world economy, and hurricanes that happen anyway.

    I assume you're new here? :-)
  25. Fall of Discontent from Ottawa, Canada writes: So the Liberals and Duncan have been playing risky investments with the taxpayers of Ontario finances?

    Great.

    Now Dalton and Duncan can justify any expense and deficit in the coming 3 years!

    I guess we'll now face a "deficit premium" and a "risky investments premium" from the Liberals. Of course if Dion had his way we'd also get shafted by the Green Shift.
  26. West Virginian Albino Mexican from Canada writes: J Birch from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    An honest and candid remark - he should be respected for being forthcoming.

    Not all politicians are a like

    =================================================

    Uh yeah...and when Harper/Flaherty tell it like it is there isn't enough paper towel to wipe the trickles of self-righteous drool running down your chin
  27. Freddie B from Woodbridge from Canada writes: Chris S from Guelph, Canada writes: Systemic Risk makes a valid point in noting that people are a little too hard on Mulroney for the financial mess of the early 1990's without giving enough of the blame to the Liberals from whom he inherited large deficits. However, this should be applied uniformly, such as for the McGuinty Liberals taking over from the Harris/Eves Conservatives. The second point about the recession is also noteworthy, as many love to trash Bob Rae for his financial stewardship without factoring in that he took over at the beginning of a recession. ==================================================== Bob Rae took over while we in a recession, yes, but the buffoon taxed the heck out of the middle class. That is the opposite of what gov't are to do in a recession. Rae also went out of his way to make it hard on businesses with his policies. Please no excuses for the future leader of the federal liberals. As for Duncan and McGoofy, they are growing the Ontario civil service at an alarming rate and pandering to the unions with the 3% over 4 years wage increases (of course the unions think it is too little). And don't be so naive, the deficit was inflated by sorbara. He pumped it up so they bring in the health tax and blame it on the tories. Mcguinty has done nothing for the economy since he has taken over. His mandate has dealt with a bunch of environmental issues (clothes lines, weed spray, smoking in cars, speeding, ect). Ask an auto worker what mcGoofy has done for them. Gridlock is as bad as it was when he took over. Liberals can blame others even better than the NDP.
  28. Non Partisan I AM Canadian from Canada writes: Bah; the economy is just a made up entity anyways.

    If the people of Ontario need stuff to survive, and get back on track; give it to them.

    "The economy" is not as important as quality of life.
  29. Peter Wojnar from Hamilton, Canada writes:

    >>Mike Milne from Canada writes: Chief Economist for TD called the Carbon Tax "sensible" but further stated to CBC news on June 18th 2008
    that "I THINK it will be revenue neutral, but there will be no individual or company in the country that will exactly get back what it pays back in carbon tax." "There will be a lot of winners and a lot of losers."

    But this is what I need someone to explain to me about the Green Shift.

    In order for industry and individuals to go "green" it will require HUGE dollar investments (BILLIONS) in new technology, new equipment, new machinery, new infrastructure, etc, etc.

    But then everyone tells me that the Green Shift will be revenue neutral.

    HOW CAN THAT BE??? When are the BILLIONS going to come from to help us go green if everything is revenue neutral?

    It's as if Dion is telling us that we are going to go green for "free".
  30. Chris S from Guelph, Canada writes: Peter, I think if you reread my message you will see that I am deliberately trying to avoid partisanship. I agree whole-heartedly that Mulroney inherited a mess. I agree that Harris inherited a mess. I agree that Rae came to power during a recession that he could have done very little, if anything to avoid. I also think that McGuinty inherited a mess.

    The only place where I would disagree with you is if you contest my statement that voter disillusionment is the result of ALL of the mainstream parties mininterpreting or revising history in an effort to score political points. Because I think that voter disillusionment is very real, and judging by the partisanship displayed by all parties in this election, I suspect the problem will be getting even worse.
  31. D Le5 from Canada writes: Fred Draper from Kingston: Sound like the right crying about Trudeau.
  32. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: Mike Milne, if there were no winners and losers, if it were revenue neutral down to the individual level, then what's the point? The whole point is to discourage carbon use, thus there HAS to be losers: Those who use lots of carbon, or those with low incomes.

    If you shift the tax cut onto the progressive tax system (where the rich pay more taxes), any cut disproportionally benefits richer individuals. Sooo, basically, if you are a transit user who makes no money (student) this shouldn't affect you much. If you are a transit user who makes lots of money you make out like a bandit. If you are a driver who makes average amount of money, no effect. Driver who makes lots of money, you win. Driver who makes little money, you lose.

    Of course that is modified a bit by how much gasoline you consume when you drive, but taxes on gasoline aren't nearly as progressive as income taxes, because even if you drive a 200k car, you probably only use twice as much fuel as someone who drives a 30k car.

    Bottom line: Green shift, good economics, very bad politics.
  33. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    Countries in recession emit fewer GHGs.

    By the grace of the Lord above and the pressures of the market place, the human race has civilized itself.

    At last.
  34. George Smith from Canada writes: Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada;

    Just a little info for you:

    There is no tax on gasoline in the Green Shift.

    Please correct your statement.
  35. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes: George Smith from Canada writes: Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada;
    Just a little info for you:
    There is no tax on gasoline in the Green Shift.
    Please correct your statement.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Riggghhhttt....

    The refineries are hit hard and they just absorb the costs.
    That's the ticket.

    George Smith?
    Are you really that naive?
  36. George Smith from Canada writes: There is no tax on gasoline in the Green Shift.

    Those that are saying this are misrepresenting the platform.

    Lying doesn't get votes.
  37. Michael Sharp from Victoria, Canada writes:

    George Smith?

    Lying doesn't get many votes, granted.

    But naivete apparently is going to score big.
  38. Chris S from Guelph, Canada writes: Michael, you point out that the refineries will pass along the price of the carbon tax proposed by both the Greens and the Liberals to consumers or the cap-and-trade system proposed by the NDP, which is almost certainly true. My question is, are YOU really so naive that you think they won't ALSO pass along the costs that they incur under the environmental plan put forward by the Conservatives? I have a bit of a hard time believing that industry won't, for example, pass along the extra costs incurred by paying into the Technology Fund proposed by the Conservatives.

    All of the plans have inherent risks, as well as potential benefits. I would just once love it if the parties would talk about their own plans and explain why its the best system instead of bashing the other parties, be it on an environmental front, economic front or otherwise. I'm not particularly optimistic that it will happen.
  39. boz dobbs from toronto, Canada writes: Spend,Spend,Spend Mr.Duncan,let,s have more 93000 dollars a year teachers with golden pensions,cricket fields in every hamlet,paper pushers in every government office,be brave little Dwight,deficits are just a number.
  40. Mike Milne from Canada writes:
    Jimmy K,

    Your analysis re the bus passes was interesting. What is your analysis re property tax increases for increased heating for schools?

    Also, re you comment "good economics, bad policy"

    I though the Green Shift was an environmental plan.
    Appreciate the info.
  41. Centerist Tory From Calgary from Canada writes: Interesting how little influence politicians have on the economy--
  42. Robert Loblaw from Canada writes: Rest assured, Dalton will not increase taxes in Ontario to address any coming deficit.

    Expect a new "premium" to be introduced however.

    Let's see how creative his lying spin doctors can get. Perhaps we'll have an "Economic Health" premium, or an "Environmental Health" premium, maybe even a "First Nations Land Claims Health" premium (this could be nicknamed the "Caledonia Premium").

    C'mon Dalton, show us what you'll do for the deficit and in the process add to your legacy as the biggest bu!!$hiter ever elected in Ontario.

    Or possibly anywhere.
  43. Scotty Tranna from Toronto, Canada writes: Dalton McMoron strikes again. What a joke he is. And the joke's on Ontario.
  44. Mike Milne from Canada writes:
    quote
    "Mr. Duncan said he has spoken to the chief executive officers of most of Canada's big banks, ALL OF WHOM assure him that the domestic institutions are FINANCIALLY SOUND."

    Hmmmmm..... that sounds familiar. Where have I heard that before?

    Oh right.... the Prime Minister.
  45. Mike Milne from Canada writes:
    Hey... that means the Prime Minister plagiarised again!

    (gold Milne..... gold)

    Of course, Dion's plan is to learn this 3 weeks from now.

    Hey Stephane... let me know when you find out that the Quebec Nordiques moved to Denver.

    (I'm on fire...)
  46. Paul Sawyer from Cambridge, Canada writes: The major problem with Ontario is the $21 Billion in transfer payments that it gives to the rest of the country with Quebec getting the majority of it. The Bloc Q. should be illegal. Their separation games are purely to take more money from Ontario. Since Ontario has been having major problems with losing manufacturing jobs, Quebec and the rest of Canada are in for a surprise when their Ontario-provided subsidies start to diminish. Maybe Newfoundland, Saskatchewan and Alberta can foot the bill from now on. The help certainly won't come from any other provinces.
  47. JM Work from Canada writes: Damn brake lines.
  48. Jimmy K from Toronto, Canada writes: George, as Michael mentioned, yes, there is no tax on gasoline, but there IS tax on the inputs to gasoline, so really it's the same thing. Unless of course you believe that the oil companies are going to eat the tax loss themselves and pass on the same price to consumers. That'll be the day. Mike M, property tax increases for increased heating for schools... Well to be quite honest, the additional cost of heating (as a result of the green shift) would be a small part of a property tax bill, so I don't know if we really should consider that too much. If you start looking at things like that, you end up paying attention to the tree and miss the forest. But yes, I see what you are saying, if you are thinking on that level, then essentially an unintended consequence of the green shift is shifting taxes from income to property which is very very very bad. Liberals got all red faced when the tax burden was shifted away from the best tax (GST) to income tax by Harper's GST cuts, but I suppose right here they are, in a small way, proposing to shift some (although once again, not much) of the burden from the second best tax (income) to the WORST (property). That would probably hurt those who live in rural areas more, as they tend to have lower incomes than those who live in big cities and have a smaller commercial property tax base to rely on. And low and behold, I bet the Liberals are about to get decimated in rural areas, whereas the Tories won't win many seats at all in Urban centers. Looks like Canadians are fairly rational people afterall.
  49. Joe Canadian from Canada writes: Wonder if this very convenient economic issue will cover a problem the provincial liberals have already created.
  50. Fake Name from Canada writes: Message to dalton and mcguinty - deficits are NOT acceptable anymore. If you can't make ends meet, ditch some of the extra bureaucrats that you were busily hiring at break-neck pace throughout your first term.

    You might also want to try cutting the exorbitant compensation packages for the power utility management officers, and tie their bonuses to performance instead of patronage. Either the taxpayers would start getting service of an efficiency and quality like we wouldn't believe, or we'd save a small fortune just with OPG and Hydro One.

    " Centerist Tory From Calgary from Canada writes: Interesting how little influence politicians have on the economy-- "

    Indeed. Still, they can influence their own books, and I don't think most people are overly thrilled with the job they've made of it.
  51. Grampa Canuck from Stirling, ON, Canada writes: Mike Harris was able to maintain the illusion of effective fiscal management by selling off assets to balance the books. He cut taxes and covered the revenue shortfall by selling off assets such as Highway 407 in perpetuity. Only at the end of his run did the chickens come home to roost and He left a massive deficit for the McGinty government to deal with, while the Harrisites were claiming there would be no deficit.

    The McGinty government has fallen short in a number of ways, but I'll take his government over another Mike Harris government anytime. And, I appreciate that we will end up with a deficit this go-round.
  52. Fake Name from Canada writes: Jimmy K, I'm not sure spinning a consumption tax on fuel as a property tax for heating your home is really entirely right-thinking. For one thing, you could heat your home with an electric furnace fed by nuclear plants or water power. For another, the extra fuel costs wouldn't be very significant contributions to net property taxes.

    The green shift is still a stupid plan, just for different reasons. The big one I see is that assuming it really works and modifies people's behaviour on a large scale, the revenue the libbies plan to get from it to fund other things is going to start shrinking as people move away from fossil fuels. That shows some serious lack of long-term planning.
  53. Alec Robertson from Riverdale, Canada writes: Greg Van Zandt: There has only been 2 Liberal premiers since the early 1940's...McGuinty and Peterson Except for Rae the rest were Tories
  54. Alec Robertson from Riverdale, Canada writes: Guys correct me if I'm wrong but the issue in Ontario with the Tory deficit was that Mr. Eves stated during the election that the books were balanced based on some wheeling and dealing he had planned after he was re-elected. The fact that the unstated amount was pretty big was the hoof to the stones.
  55. Alec Robertson from Riverdale, Canada writes: Grampa Canuck: Let's not forget the debt retirement fee on our hydro bills every month for all eternity, in perpetuity, forever and ever amen.
  56. Fake Name from Canada writes: " Paul Sawyer from Cambridge, Canada writes: The Bloc Q. should be illegal. Their separation games are purely to take more money from Ontario."

    No, they're perfectly happy to extort a fiscal imbalance funded from BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Newfoundland as well.
  57. Gail Thomas from Canada writes: Socialism is bad for everyone who has to give, but good for those on the take.
  58. R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: Oh my my...poor Ontario....poor babies....that they "the heartbeat of the nation" should ever have to have deficit financing.....my my my.......the biggest economic myth out there is that government's should not have deficit financing....the reason they will is that the public will not be able to remove itself from behind the aprons of nanny governments!
  59. jck from ontario from Canada writes: welllllllllll cut spending .
  60. Chris Hay from Regina, SK, Canada writes: Isn't it amazing, how a possible deficit by a Liberal government is to be 'expected' and a bad thing, yet a possible deficit by a Conservative government isn't?
  61. George Smith from Canada writes: Fake Name from Canada:

    You hit upon a potential difficulty with any carbon based taxation or trading that I agree with.

    However, I believe for the short to medium term (2 to 20 years), the price per tonne will continue to rise ( I've seen estimates of $200 per tonne.) This will offset the problem you stated for at least 20 years. By that time the economy will have adjusted to electric vehicles and all sorts of innovation that will reduce carbon based consumption. After that, taxation will have to look to other sources to maintain service levels.

    Perhaps a tax on complex carbohydrates to reduce obesity is next. ;)
  62. Free The West Free The West from Free the West, Canada writes: Yeah Ontario, it must be the "global financial crisis" making you go into deficit. Funny how othe provinces aren't affected the same way. Certainly couldn't have anything to do with all the socialism and big union givernment you have!
    And then you all want to vote Liberal in the Federal election, foisting your delusions onto the rest of the country.
  63. Mike Milne from Canada writes: Jimmy K, thanks
  64. J S from Canada writes: "Sarah Bee from Canada writes: Chris S - very nicely put."

    I concur.
  65. A W from Canada writes: A Deficit??? Now this is the Liberals we all know and love..lol

    They sure do love to spend,spend,and spend some more even if its not the wise move to make.....

    They should be tightening the belt now for the upcoming storm. But We all know that will never happen. Spend,Spend and Spend some more, that's the Liberal Way!!!!!

    OH and lets not forget that Dalton is just a plain and simple LIAR!!
    Not sure what values he was brought up on? LOL.
  66. Kim Morton from Qualicum Beach, Canada writes: Hey here's a thought-CUT SPENDING TO MATCH REVENUE. That is what ordinary taxpayers must do, so why not the government try this novel approach to budgeting.
  67. Pierre-Yves P from Toronto, Canada writes: Great news, had to be expected. And of course McGuinty's apalling and wasteful management of Ontario's public finances has nothing to do with it, right?
  68. 'Just saw news:young woman municipality employee below her name: Community Arts Facilitator...' from Toronto, Canada writes:
    john may (06/10/08 at 8:05 PM ):
    "... Always keep a tight leash on money, otherwise the pols just piss it away on mickey mouse programs. Just saw a young woman employee of the municipality on the news and below her name it said 'Community arts facilitator'. Just give the cost of her salary and benefits to the local Boys & Girls club.
    ---------------

    BRAVO 'john may' !

    McGuinty's bloated Lib GOv - GROWN public sector more than '90-'03 Rae, Harris & Eves - combined!!!
    McGuinty Lib Gov 2004-07:

    101, 882 (15.5% growth) NET NEW public sector/employed by On Lib Gov jobs/'jobs'
    WHICH is
    7 TIMES higher growth than the same-period NET NEW Private-sector jobs growth of 2.1%
    (108,000 - only 6,100 more than public sector/employed by On Lib Gov)
    AND
    almost 3 TIMES higher growth than the same-period Ont population growth rate of 5.3%

    Further:
    - departmental bureaucracy ballooned 8.8% (to 102,180 total);
    - health care, soc services, universities, colleges, training, TEACHERS (important !!! - see "Unresolved Stolen Ontario Oct 07 Elections vs buying votes" in next posts ...) , hospitals, and all other Ont Gov employment (EXCLUDING gov. businesses)
    ballooned by 16.6 %.

    Now compare the above 101,882 NET NEW public sector/employed by Ont Lib Gov, with:
    - NDP Bob Rae '90-mid'95 _: MINUS 21,673
    - PC Harris, Eves mid'95-'03: _____ 47,235 (But MINUS 10,000 for main departmental bureaucracy)

    Unbelievable? Incredulous?

    Only if you do not 'get it' regarding the "Unresolved Stolen Ontario Oct 07 Elections"
    vs
    buying votes of the 'Special Interests' such as Female/RadFem LGBT SocEng usurped jobs/'jobs'    .

    How many heterosexual males are in these NET NEW 101,882 public sector/employed by On Lib Gov jobs/'jobs' ?

    Give me the break !!!

    -------
    "McGuinty's bloated government", Financial Post, April 30, 08
    http://tinyurl.com/4g76wo
  69. File/docs ‘Missing/Vanished’ from Elections Ont re Unresolved Stolen Ont 07 Elections from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Andrew Mayeda , Canwest News Service, Sept 05, 08: "... Dion will launch his campaign on Parliament Hill before heading to the Ottawa South riding of David McGuinty, brother of Ontario premier Dalton McGuinty. .."

    -----------------------

    Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2008

    Subject:

    File/docs ‘Missing/Vanished’ from Elections Ontario: successfully faxed Complaint on Oct 10, 2007;
    also separate complaint not yet found at Auditor General Office

    The Honourable David C. Onley, O.Ont.,
    Lieutenant Governor of Ontario, Queen’s Park, Toronto, Ontario

    All MPPs, Ontario Legislative Assembly

    Deborah Deller, Clerk of the Legislative Assembly

    Andre Marin, Ombudsman Ontario

    Others to whom it must or should or may concern



    The Honourable David C. Onley,
    Dear MPPs,
    Dear Ontario Legislative Assembly Officials,
    Dear Mr. Marin,
    Others who are in charge of the matter (if any),

    We are asking for independent (you know from who) and transparent investigation about ‘missing’ written complaint duly submitted and successfully transmitted via fax to the Elections Ontario (EO).

    1. On October 10, 2007, ...... , on behalf of grass root connected concerned (which is euphemism) Ontarians, submitted complaint to the Elections Ontario (EO),
    addressed to
    John L. Hollins, Chief Electoral Officer,
    and
    Loren A. Wells, Deputy Chief Electoral Officer.

    2. Submission was 2-part fax transmissions to EO’s fax number 416-326-6200, successfully completed at 5:39pm and 8:14pm, respectively.

    Please see attached file
    “20071010 confirmation of 2 successful fax transmissions to Elections Ontario.pdf”

    ... tbc ...

  70. File/docs ‘Missing/Vanished’ from Elections Ont re Unresolved Stolen Ont 07 Elections from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Andrew Mayeda , Canwest News Service, Sept 05, 08: "... Dion will launch his campaign on Parliament Hill before heading to the Ottawa South riding of David McGuinty, brother of Ontario premier Dalton McGuinty. .."

    ------------------

    ... part 2 of letter Dated Thu, 17 Apr 2008 to Lieutenant Governor of Ontario et al,
    Subject: File/docs ‘Missing/Vanished’ from Elections Ontario: successfully faxed Complaint on Oct 10, 2007;
    also separate complaint not yet found at Auditor General Office

    ... see Part 1 07/10/08 at 12:58 AM...

    3. As there has been no reply whatsoever from the EO, I followed up today, April 17, 2007, by calling 416-326-6383 of John L. Hollins.

    Ms. Louise Brown answered the call. As she could not immediately confirm any knowledge of submitted complaint, she promised to check and call me back.

    4. Soon thereafter, Ms. Louise Brown of the CEO Office called me back and informed me officially that they, EO, do not have any trace of my/our submitted complaint.

    5. Attached are copies of two fax transmissions successfully completed to EO fax 416-326-6200 on October 10, 2007:

    “20071010 to elections ontario.pdf”
    “20071010-2 to elections ontario.pdf”

    As for the Office of the Ontario Auditor General,
    a separate 2-part complaint was sent on October 10, 2007 via 2 e-mails, to gary.peall@auditor.on.ca, jim.mccarter@auditor.on.ca, comments@auditor.on.ca, christine.pedias@auditor.on.ca.

    From my IT-side, these two e-mail went through them successfully.

    I spoke to Mr. Gary Peall today, too, to see why we have not received any reply whatsoever,
    and
    he also could not find the copies of e-mails send to his e-mail account.

    As of now, I could not get confirmation from the Office of the Ontario Auditor General regarding the whereabouts of these 2 e-mails/separate complaint at other e-mail accounts: ...
    ... tbc ...
  71. File/docs ‘Missing/Vanished’ from Elections Ont re Unresolved Stolen Ont 07 Elections from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Andrew Mayeda , Canwest News Service, Sept 05, 08: "... Dion will launch his campaign on Parliament Hill before heading to the Ottawa South riding of David McGuinty, brother of Ontario premier Dalton McGuinty. .."

    ------------------

    Further background behind the letter dated Thu, 17 Apr 2008 to Lieutenant Governor of Ontario et al ("File/docs ‘Missing/Vanished’ from Elections Ontario: successfully faxed Complaint on Oct 10, 2007; also separate complaint not yet found at Auditor General Office", see above posts 24/09/08 at 2:56, 3:10AM ):

    Original Oct 07 complaints and related files are at:
    http://www.ca_libs_stole_elections.keepandshare.com/

    Suggested reading order may be:

    20071008 Requests for Independent Ont 07 Elections Inquiry - Gross Incidents, Irregularities.pdf
    20071010 to elections ontario - p.pdf
    20071010-2 to elections ontario - p.pdf

    20070919 OPC complaint against Globe and Mail - cover up Ont Aud Gen order.pdf
    20071004 Globe and Mail is playing dirty politics in Ontario 2007.pdf
    20071004 complaint against 'Globe and Mail' - for prof jacek.pdf

    20080417 to All re file, docs 'Missing-Vanished' from Elections Ontario, Auditor General Office.pdf
    20080418 Christine Pedias, Office of Auditor Genral of Ontario.pdf

    etc ...

    In short:

    "... Decimation of any semblance of free and democratic Ont. Elections ‘07 -

    atop of what is experienced/viewed as Ont Gov psychological warfare inflicted on its own population to incite ethnic/religious fears and hate mongering.

    … sophisticated, Orwellian psychological / political ‘warfare’ of cover up, manipulation (including inciting fear and hate mongering), spin, and brainwashing. …

    … Unbearable sophisticated Lib. Gov-Media collusion … blatant, un-journalistic, harm to Ont. Public just got rampant, intensified. …"

  72. Ont Auditor General reply to ‘Missing/Vanished’ complaint files/docs re Ont 07 Elections from Toronto, Canada writes:
    ——- Original Message ——–

    Subject:
    RE: complaints against Ont Gov/Lib Election 07 incidents, irregularities

    Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008

    From: Christine Pedias
    [Christine.Pedias@auditor.on.ca]

    CC: Gary Peall [gary.peall@auditor.on.ca]

    Thank you for writing the Office of the Auditor General of Ontario about your concerns with political donations in kind during the 2007 Ontario election.

    Our Office welcomes citizens’ comments or concerns regarding government programs and services, and we keep this information on file for planning future audits.

    I have forwarded your message to the director in our office responsible for these audits. We select areas for audit based on a number of criteria, which include:

    - cost of a program

    - level of risk to public health and safety

    - volume of public commentary on a program’s performance

    - other indicators that problems may exist.

    You may also wish to contact Elections Ontario with your concerns since they are charged with overseeing compliance with election law. Information can also be found on their website at
    http://www.electionsontario.on.ca

    Write:
    Elections Ontario 51 Rolark Drive
    Toronto, ON M1R 3B1

    Call:
    (416) 326-6300 or 1 888 668-8683
    Office hours are 8:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. (Eastern Standard Time).

    Email: info@elections.on.ca

    Fax: (416) 326-6200

    Election Finances Office:
    Tel: (416) 325-9401 or 1 866 566-9066
    Fax: (416) 325-9466

    Christine Pedias
    A/Manager of Corporate Communications
    Office of the Auditor General of Ontario
    20 Dundas St. W. 15th Floor
    tel: 416 327-2336
    fax: 416 327-9862

  73. Lively bloggin' from Toronto, Canada writes:
    "McGuinty says he'll use federal election to fight for ...", Sept 2, 08, THE CANADIAN PRESS
    PICKERING, Ont. - Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty says he's ready to use a federal election campaign to ...
    After meeting with students at a Pickering high school today, McGuinty said ...
    ------- bloggin' reactions ------

    "... Dalton McLiar threatens Stephen Harper that he will once again use teachers on provincial payroll to steal elections for Liberal Party of Canada ..."

    "... Dalton McGuinty is getting ready to steal federal elections for Ontario Liberals same way that he stole Ontario provincial elections almost a year ago. ..."

    "... Joanne, things are actually much worse than what I have presented so far.

    In addition to what I wrote above consider this:
    voting stations in all urban areas are usually located in local schools.
    Counting of cast votes is done on school property after schools are closed on Election Day.
    Election Commissions overseeing voting and counting of cast votes are made up mostly of people working at local schools.
    There are many opportunities and great incentives to stuff ballot boxes, conduct biased counting, selective invalidation of cast votes etc.

    Knowing how crooked Ontario Liberals are, all of the above might as well be a par for the game. ..."

  74. Lively bloggin' from Toronto, Canada writes:
    --------- bloggin' reactions ------

    "... Joanne,
    Going back to your previous post “More Liberal Arrogance” it seems to me that Dion is very much under the influence of McGuinty brothers.

    Steve Janke in his recent post “Liberal blogger’s brilliant carbon tax analysis” presented very cynical view of Dion’s “Carbon Tax” as a way to buy votes in Ontario and Quebec using money stolen in Western Canada.

    If one assumes that sexual deviants surrounding Dalton McGuinty are controlling public opinion polling companies in Canada and are cooking results of public opinion polls in Ontario,
    and
    if one assumes that Dalton McGuinty’s cronies are able to stuff ballot boxes to reflect results of these cooked polls
    then any “excuse” will do in order to validate such crooked results.

    Cynical explanation of such “voting phenomena” offer an advantage in that nobody is willing to touch stinking issues and try to dissect them in order to find validity of such explanations.

    Last provincial elections were perfect example of how such things get accomplished in Ontario.

    John Tory took the high road and tried to get elected on promise of public funding for religious schools. From a moral perspective it was cut and dry, Catholics get public funding so should other religious groups.

    Dalton McGuinty, who have won previous elections with help of school teachers, had it guaranteed that he was going to steal election and all that he needed was an excuse in order to cover up his electoral fraud.

    He needed an excuse that would be so morally repulsive that nobody would be willing to examine closely validity of it.

    John Tory handed Dalton McGuinty such perfect excuse on a silver platter
    ...
    ... to continue ...
  75. Lively bloggin' from Toronto, Canada writes:
    --- bloggin' reactions cont'd from 01/10/08 at 5:19 PM -------

    "... John Tory handed Dalton McGuinty such perfect excuse on a silver platter.

    Tory’s initiative on school funding issue “validated” active involvement of teachers and teachers’ unions in electoral process “as their own effort” to protect their own turf and their portion of public funding pie.

    This explanation was so repulsive that nobody was willing to look behind the curtains to see who was pulling all the strings.

    It seems to me that cooking of votes in Ontario has a long tradition and it seems that provincial Tories were as guilty of it as McGuinty’s Liberals and this is why they stayed completely quiet when Liberals pulled their stunt.

    If Dalton McGuinty wants to pull same stunt in upcoming elections he might be in for a nasty surprise. Conservatives under Harper have not been in power long enough to be guilty of such blatant manipulations.

    Their recent battles with Election Canada paints E. C. as a Liberal lap dog and E. C. raid on Conservative Party Headquarters paints them as highly partisan organisation. Stage is all set for an all out confrontation on this particular issue between CPC and EC.

    In my personal opinion there is no way that Conservatives would neglect to conduct their own public opinion polls and trigger an election but strangely none of the results of such polls are being released to the public.

    One would have to ask himself why is that??

    If Conservative paid for polls show Conservative popularity much higher that what is publicly reported, it would only help Conservatives so why they are not publishing them??

    The only explanation that I could come up with would be that they are getting prepared to fry much bigger fish.

    Once elections are over ...

    ... to continue ...

  76. Lively bloggin' from Toronto, Canada writes:
    ---- bloggin' reactions cont'd from 07/10/08 at 1:13, 1:14 AM------

    "... Once elections are over
    and
    electoral fraud does takes place
    and
    accusations to that effect are made,
    they would have to be backed up with some evidence and detailed results of large scale opinion polls would come very handy.

    All of the above is highly speculative due to the fact that
    Canada’s international opinion would suffer as a result of revelations about electoral fraud,
    also Canadian public would get disillusioned and public participation in direct democracy would suffer as a result of such developments.
    "

  77. 'DG Master from moronto' had it best ... from Toronto, Canada writes:
    DG Master from moronto, Canada writes:

    "Liberals, it has been said, are generous with other peoples' money,
    except
    when it comes to questions of national survival when they prefer to be generous with other people's freedom and security."
    William F. Buckley, Jr. quote

    My hope is that one day soon people will admit to having voted Liberal with all the shame and embarrassment of having contracted VD
    Posted 06/10/08 at 4:18 PM

  78. Linda Dial from Calgary, Canada writes: Chris S-brilliant posts.
  79. Matthew McKenzie from Thunder Bay, Canada writes: Lets just remember the economy was growing under Mike Harris' watch. It sucks under McGuinty's watch. Dalton is a socialist who would probably make Karl Marx proud.

    And lets not forget that one of McGuinty's first acts as premier was to cancel corporate tax cuts scheduled to take effect January 1, 2004. I totally agree I thought the 2004 tax increase (health premium) was supposed to keep Ontario out of deficit.

    And if you look at history Ontario, has fared much better under Conservative governments than they have under the Liberals. Mitch Hepburn was considered the worst premier of Ontario (before McGuinty of course) and Ontario's economy sucked back then. After that the Conservatives ruled Ontario and made it number one. Premiers like George Drew, Leslie Frost, John Robarts and Bill Davis helped to make Ontario what it was. In four short years Dalton has taken us from first to worst. In 2011 a Conservative government will have to come and fix the mess again.
  80. 'McGuinty is beyond redemption, Ont's voted him in, so they can damn well vote him out again too' from Toronto, Canada writes:
    ALASTAIR JAMES BERRY from Nanaimo BC:

    ... Surely Mc Guinty's "cerebration" has to be called into question.

    The damage to the ONTARIO INDUSTRY was a self inflicted wound as far as I can see from my perch on Vancouver Island.

    How could any sane individual close up the coal fired power stations that supplied RELIABLE and CHEAP POWER without lining up an equally reliable and cheap source of supply?

    Industry needs and florishes on cheap reliable power and the CHEAPER THE BETTER.

    A GOLDEN GOOSE (and that is what industry is to Ontario and Canada) needs to be well fed if it is going to lay GOLDEN EGGS!

    Now, I see Mc Guinty wants to close NANTICOKE.
    ........ Surely this is crazy ......................
    Better far to duplicate that facility .............. and have cheap power for industry and citizens alike?

    I greatly fear McGuinty is beyond redemption, the citizens of Ontario voted him in , so in my opinion, they can damn well vote him out again too !

    [Feds] should just let McGuinty stew in his own juice!

    Posted 06/10/08 at 6:21 PM
  81. 'Average Ontarionite that swallows McGuinties lies hook and sinker' from Toronto, Canada writes:
    bob saunders from Belleville, ON (06/10/08 at 6:11 PM):

    ... Here you go Bill.

    As a transplanted BCer living in Ontario since 2004,
    and a brother that has lived here for 35 years,

    my perpective on things is probably a little different that
    the average Ontarionite that swallows McGuinties lies hook and sinker.

    http://www.fin.gc.ca/access/fedprove.html

    bob saunders from Belleville, ON (06/10/08 at 4:54 PM):
    Ontario gets larger per capita transfers from the Federal government that either BC or Saskatchewan
    but
    you don't hear the whining from them, in fact they seem to have a preference for this government.

    McGuinty is all smoke and mirrors.

    You can't believe anything out of his mouth.

    Every week he can just go confess his lies, say 20 hail Marys and all is forgiven, then start a new lie.

    When can you tell when McGuinty is lying - when he is talking.

    What a lot of useful idiots here in Ontario.

  82. ' McQuinty is a loser just like that other hump David Miller, the mayor of Toronto ' from Toronto, Canada writes:
    Ray Crawford from Toronto (06/10/08 at 5:26 PM):

    ... Because McQuinty is a loser just like that other hump David Miller, the mayor of Toronto.

    Ever since McQuinty became premier Ontario has lost tens of thousands of jobs to the States and Mexico because of high business texes and electricity rates.

    Ontario is going to pay big time for electing this guy.

    =============================

    Eh, Ray Craford - Ontario may pay big time for electing this guy, but that is NOT IMPORTANT!

    You, your son(s), your father, your brothers, your uncles, your friends ARE NOT IMPORTANT for Ont Liberano Neo Fascist !

    Only IMPORTANT are RADFEM LGBT Soc Eng 'Special Interest' Industries: $90K/yr Monopoly 'Teachers', 'Community arts facilitators', 'Judicial-Lawyers Clique' . 'Shelters', ... you-name-it ,
    blood sucking on YOUR tax $$$$$$ !

    For God's Sake, just open eyes and see WHO are EMPLOYED in Gov and para-Gov 'Offices', 'SocEng/Multicultural LGBT RADFEM Services' and 'make-believe jobs'...

    Just walk across Toronto and watch ...

    Look at their Gov's grants and $$$$$ ...

    90% or more for their own salaries, only 10% or less for the supposed 'Services' - do you see the scam, HUGE blatant buying of VOTES with your own money ? Keep in mind that he needed ONLY 22% of ELIGIBLE votes !

    Read above about unresolved most serious 'incidents' involving RADFEM LGBT SocEng Monopoly $90K/yrs 'Teachers' and so called "Public Education" and 07 Elections.

    Why are Canadian heterosexual males so stupid, emasculated and wimp?
  83. 'I want to move from Ont b/c I can't believe what lying impotent idiot I have for a representation ' from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Flinton Rice from Toronto:

    McGuinty actually said something - he's come out of hiding!

    Seriously, who cares what he says? And why is my Premiere starting a letter writing campaign? Is he serious? Where did he get that idea - from his kids?

    He's an infinite loser and a disgrace. I want to move from Ontario because I can't believe what a lying impotent idiot I have for a representation. We won't get a deal because he is useless.

    Posted 06/10/08 at 4:44 PM

  84. Dalton has spending problem-not revenue problem, constantly goes cap-in-hand looking for more from Toronto, Canada writes:

    Ollie Tabuger from Canada writes:

    All Dalton has ever done is whine whine whine about not getting a 'fairer' shake from the Feds and then beg beg beg for more money from the same Feds.

    Dalton has a spending problem - not a revenue problem - in Ontario and he constantly goes cap-in-hand looking for more more more.

    McGuinty vowed to be vocal in this federal campaign, but really, nobody really gives two hoots about what he has to say.

    It's a shame for Ontarians to have such and ineffectual Premier.

    Posted 06/10/08 at 3:13 PM

  85. Jonathan T from Milton, Canada writes: There is lots of room to cut salaries in the government of Ontario. There is no excuse to go into deficit. Most workers are significantly over paid.

    How can a tax payer go on strike? Government employees can when they are not happy about how much the tax payers are paying them. Why shouldn't the tax payer? Afterall we are forcing citizens in the private sector to hand over cash to pay the same guy in the government 100K (including benefits and pension). So how can that tax payer go on strike and not pay taxes?
  86. slapdash dapoint from trawna, Canada writes: i'm a naive kid, and i'd appreciate