Skip to main content

You had your best-laid plans and then COVID-19 came along and hammered the entire economy. But you’ve got this – if you have the right information. Join Rob Carrick and Roma Luciw on Stress Test, a podcast guiding you through one of the biggest challenges your finances will ever face.

ROMA: You’re broke, but you blow 100 bucks on a dinner you can’t afford. Or maybe your colleagues are making more money doing the same job you are, but you don’t ask for a raise. You feel like you’re bad with money and your way of coping is to ignore your finances.

ROB: Sound familiar? It might. These are common behaviours that can lead to feeling something called money shame.

ROMA: Welcome to Stress Test, a personal finance podcast for Millennials and Gen Z. I’m Roma Luciw, personal finance editor at The Globe and Mail.

ROB: I’m Rob Carrick, personal finance columnist at the Globe.

ROB: Personal finance is all about the things you should do with your money. If you’re not doing them, the implication is that you are failing in some way. The introduction of the term money shame is a step forward in helping people master their finances.

ROMA: So what is money shame? How does it affect our financial decisions? And how can we move past it? After the break, we ask an expert to explain.

ROMA: Chantel Chapman is a Richmond, B.C.-based financial trauma researcher and educator, and the co-founder of the Trauma of Money Course. Over 18 years as a mortgage broker, financial literacy consultant and educator, she realized most financial advice didn’t result in lasting change. And that’s how she started working with people to address money shame.

ROMA: So Chantel, what is money shaming?

CHANTEL: Shame is a little bit different than guilt experience experientially. So shame is like taking on something that maybe didn’t go right in your world and making it an identity. So, for example, I racked up credit card debt, therefore, I am bad at money. And that’s really what shame is like, versus guilt, which is like I’ve racked up credit card debt, I probably shouldn’t have done that. But in other areas, I’m great at money. And so money shame is really going to apply to any shame that arises around anything to do with money. And it’s not isolated to the way we spend money or the way we invest or the way we don’t invest. It could be things like, you know, my inability to ask for a raise, or my inability to, you know, ask my friend to pay me back that money that I lent them, or it could also be, you know, I grew up really wealthy, and I have a lot of shame about the money that my family has. And I don’t feel like that’s a representation of my financial portfolio right now. And it’s causing a lot of shame for me. So it can  apply to so many different types of relationship with money.

ROMA: Okay, then. So we take that a step further, what is money trauma.

CHANTEL: Financial trauma is trauma that is directly associated with your finances. So some examples of this would be loss of assets, loss of income, severe financial distress for a certain period of time, like maybe longer than three months, domestic financial abuse, inability to retire. Growing up in poverty. And then there is the trauma of money, which is a more expanded view. And what this is, is the belief that anything that has resulted in trauma in someone’s life, even though it has nothing to do with money, can impact the relationship with money. And the reason why is because when trauma happens, it’s not so much about the experience, but it’s about what happens to the nervous system. So something can happen or not happen to someone in their lives, and it could result in the nervous system feeling unsafe, insecure or unworthy. And what does money represent in our society, it represents security and worth. And so we found this link that trauma that happens not associated with money can show up in your relationship with money.

ROMA: Some listeners might think trauma is a bit extreme to describe our relationship with money. That seems like a drastic choice of words. Why do you use that word?

CHANTEL: Ya, so we’ve heard this before. It sort of depends on what their understanding of trauma is. In history. You know, when the research first started being done around trauma, there was a lot of research around PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder. And it was said that you have trauma if you experience war, so they started working with war veterans around PTSD. But in the most recent research over the last few years, they’ve really found out that trauma is not about the external experience, but it’s about the reaction in the nervous system. So if you don’t like the word trauma, you don’t have to use it, you can basically say, you know, when my nervous system reacts to protect me my protective mechanism.

ROMA: What are some of the common patterns of behavior you see, when it comes to people struggling with money shame?

CHANTEL: So some of the behaviors that I see that are really, really consistent with many of the folks that we work with is one financial avoidance. Okay, so financial avoidance can come up for multiple reasons of shame, one of them can be I’m bad with money, therefore, I can’t even look at my bank statements or my credit card statements. It could be I don’t feel worthy. There’s like a subconscious narrative of worthiness, so they avoid having conversations around money that might result in them earning more. Another layer of financial avoidance would be financial rejection. So there’s this subconscious rejection of creating wealth or having money. That can show up in ways of under-earning, like I mentioned, or anytime you do, do get money, you spend it very, very quickly, like it’s very hard to hold on to money. Another one would be overspending. Overspending is really an interesting one when it comes to money shame, because typically what we see is we see this cycle, and we see, the shame arises based on a thought or a belief or behavior. And that usually is something like I’m not good with money, or something around scarcity. And after that shame happens, the person will experience most likely feelings of pain, emotional pain, and fear, because shame, essentially, is the terror of abandonment. And so when we experience that the nervous system is going to look for ways to soothe that pain. And that’s when the overspending might happen, which then leads to more shame, oh, I shouldn’t have overspent. Because oftentimes, the spending results in an increase in dopamine, which is an increase in pleasure, it’s a distraction, it feels good in the moment. We also know through the psychology of scarcity that when someone is in scarcity or they believe they’re in scarcity, they’re more likely to act out on a temptation.

ROMA: There’s so many interesting things I want to dive into. Have you seen any patterns in terms of who tends to experience money shame?

CHANTEL: Well, when I think about the sources of money, shame, I see two main sources. And this, depending on the source will kind of give us an indication of some of the patterns that we see. The first source is this narrative of being good or bad with money. It’s very much like a this or that thinking type approach. And we see that a lot. We see it a lot in financial literacy education. We see it a lot with, you know, financial influencers, and different experts saying like, you know, here’s the steps to be good at money. And if you do this, you’re bad. And that narrative is really impactful to many folks because of the society we live in, and also, potentially from some of the parenting that we experienced. So one example is think of Santa Claus. And you know, Santa Claus naughty list, and we grow up with this message, like, be good. The second source of shame that we see all the time. So the first was like this, this or that type thinking of money. The second is our comparison nature.

So prior to the internet and social media, we would compare ourselves to the people that we interacted with on a day to day basis. Right, you know, keeping up with the Joneses, that’s like more referring to our neighbors, right, and we would make comparisons that would probably be very similar to like our socio economic status. But with the internet, our, our comparison has expanded massively. So we’ve gone from like keeping up with the Joneses, to Keeping Up With The Kardashians, like private jets, you know, like this person is going to Europe this summer, and I’m not. You’re like seeing all these different things, all these this really wide range of wealth. And that comparison leads to a lot of shame. And that comparison can actually fuel that this-or-that type thinking and can actually fuel some of the advice or pressure that’s put on people on how to be good with money and how to be bad with money.

ROMA: Especially since the social media content that you’re seeing is not necessarily the whole truth, and is often hiding a reality that’s quite different than what it appears.

CHANTEL: Exactly. It’s a highlight reel of the positive, the thing that we want to show off.

ROMA: You mentioned avoiding dealing with your finances, overspending. Are there any other sort of typical behaviors or red flags that you see in terms of behavior?

CHANTEL: Yeah, so hoarding money, hoarding wealth is another or excessive risk aversion and underspending. So maybe you have shame around, that’s connected to this feeling of undeserving and not wanting to buy yourself things or not wanting to spend your money because there’s a fear. Maybe in your past, you experienced your parent losing a job and money was tight. And now, that fear is kind of guiding your interactions with money. So you’re living in this very, like past negative orientation now in the future. And so anytime you consider spending some of your money, shame arises. So it results, the behavior that happens is underspending or this like hoarding of money. And then the excessive risk aversion could come from a very similar place. And there’s such a fear of loss. And there’s a there’s like that, that cloud of potential shame if you lose money, that you never invest your money.

ROMA: Are there any patterns that you see, and I’m really curious to hear about this, that are specific to women versus men?

CHANTEL: So one that I see a lot. In financial psychology, they would call the money disorder, financial enabling. And we essentially call it people pleasing with your money or financial codependency. This is my favourite one to talk about because this was me, exactly. And so what it is is that we basically use our money as a “please like me” fund. So overspending on clothes, or, you know, when I was a mortgage broker making no money, I leased a really expensive car because all the men in my office had these beautiful four-door sedans. And I’m like, well, I need to have that to be successful. You know, it’s like the spending is for this like external validation. And it’s not external validation because of, you know, ego. It’s external validation for safety, like wanting to fit in. And then another way it can show up is through under-earning. And you know, not wanting to ask for a raise or undercharging if you have your own business, offering things for free. It could show up in basically, you know, giving your children, your adult children a lot of money, when you maybe don’t have it, or maybe it’s buying friends dinner, because you feel like you’ll fit in more if you pay if you get the bill. And we see this so much with women, because women in our society in the past have very have been very conditioned to be the nurturer or to be the, you know, make everything right. And not to not speak up so much about money. To, to please. Right. And so we see this a lot with women.

ROMA: What about men? What are some of the patterns you see there?

CHANTEL: We see a lot of shame with men around earning ability, and the pressure to be good with money is very, very high. And that comes from the societal narrative of men need to be the breadwinner, and you know, like, a man’s value is attached to their net worth. Like we see that a lot in some of the narratives that we received from society. So we noticed there’s quite a bit of shame. And it’s really interesting. If you look at the work that we do, we see 90% women. I’ve spoken to the men that we see. And I asked them, you know, why do you think this is and there’s this, there’s this like, shame around saying, I’m not good with money, and I need help. Because they learned that that wasn’t okay, that’s a sign of weakness.

ROMA: Do you see any kind of money patterns, shame or trauma for young people, say under the age of 40? Are there any sort of things that jumped out at you there?

CHANTEL: Oh, yeah, a lot. So one, the comparison factor that I mentioned earlier. So it seems like the comparison is a lot higher, especially for those that are really engaged in internet and social media. Another thing that we see is there seems to be a more awareness around economic marginalization in the world with the millennials and younger. And with this awareness of economic marginalization, it’s absolutely incredible, because we need to have more change makers working towards more economic justice in our world. But with that comes this level of shame for creating your own wealth and having your own wealth. And what we often see is a lot of folks who want to go in these passion-oriented careers, where they’re helping and they’re serving. And what ends up happening is they can develop these unconscious narratives of rejecting money for themselves, because they feel this sense of injustice in the world around the wealth gap. And they take it on, and they make it apply to them having anything above surviving. And so I see so much shame about you know, earning well or like, treating yourself to something nice because of their deep level of awareness for the societal challenges and pain.

ROMA: Here’s a big question after having this entire talk. How can listeners people hearing this, and they’re wondering, how can I break a shame cycle? What are the steps, the concrete things you can do?

CHANTEL: Yeah, I love this question. And we use a, an approach and a theory that comes from the realm of psychology. And we learned about it through Dr. Anna Lemke, who studies dopamine and addiction. And this is where the shame arises and we meet it with radical honesty. So we would say something like, I noticed, I have shame around this situation. And then we introduce this question, and we say, whose shame is this? And that question is really powerful, because it helps create separation between ourselves, and maybe a narrative that’s been placed on us. Maybe this shame comes from something you learned from mother, or maybe it comes from society. We ask that question whose shame is this. And then from there, we meet that shame, with acceptance and compassion. So whether we’re hearing someone else share their shame to us, we respond and we say, despite that shame, I hear you, you’re still accepted, and you’re still valuable. And you can practice this with yourself. From that place of acceptance and belonging, we’re able to take a different course of action. We just bring in this understanding that things are gonna go wrong with our finances. And you know, when something goes wrong, it doesn’t have to become an identity of shame.

ROMA: What’s the best case result or outcome for people who work through their money trauma, their money issues, whatever it is, we call it? What are the potential consequences of doing that?

CHANTEL: Well, decreased shame and increased discernment. And there’s a sense of freedom around your relationship with money. And that freedom will allow you to explore the things that maybe you were avoiding in the past and didn’t want to do without a significant impact on your nervous system. You know, we see folks who, like the thought of them sitting down to do a budget gets them so activated, where they go into fight flight freeze or fawn. And the stress on their nervous system is significant and it can lead to all sorts of health issues. And so to do this work, you get to a point where you have the the ability to have talked to someone about money to you know, go into a bank and not feel inadequate, to be able to make that investment to, you know, ask for a raise, to set boundaries around how much you want to work all these different things or they can rise when we do this work around healing our relationship with money.

ROMA: Chantel, thank you for joining us. After the break, we’ll speak with a person who’s dealt with money shame first hand.

ROB: Our next guest is here to share her experience with money shame.

IRINA: So my name is Irina. I’m 31. And I’m from Toronto, and I have a background in health policy and health informatics. I think that my experience is with being shamed for the way I manage my money, the way I spend, the just any choices that I make. They’re reflected in whatever I do. So I’ve found that I have to hide the way I engage with money, as much as possible. And as a result, I avoid dealing with the actual problem or seeking support. So I think like avoidance is the general result.

ROB: One of the first times Irina felt money shame was when she went into overdraft in her bank account as a teenager. Her family had immigrated to Canada, and had strict rules around spending.

IRINA: Anything that involves spending money, it had to be worth it. It had to have impact. It was a significant action that was being taken. It was, I was never part of a family that would walk out with a toy or you know, something ridiculous that you’ll end up tossing in the basement five years later. There were no souvenirs when you left Canada’s Wonderland, you were lucky to even go. You know. So I did receive support for things that my family deemed were needed. But when it came to extracurriculars like, you know, going to the movies, spending money on going out, taking the bus. Those were things that I paid for. And when my family felt like my money could have been spent differently or better, I was often compared to how they had it harder, and they would manage their money better. And actually, I remember having this goal to buy a car. And I forgot about this until right now actually. So as soon as I could get a job, I did. And even before that, I was babysitting. And I came up with this goal to buy a car and save up for it. And I was really serious. And I thought it was very doable. I probably could have gotten a used car. And then I never did, I never saved up for it. Because then I started to realize that it costs money to go to the movies or like, buy clothes that you think that you need, but your parents might not value. And so I guess I just never saved that money. Here and there my mom will say remember when you said you were going to save up for a car ha ha ha, you know, like, “Look at that, never happened.” So I think that’s probably the first time that I really felt shame for not reaching a financial goal, which is so sad, because I still don’t have a car. But now I take pride in it, because it’s very expensive.

ROB: She married young and trust her husband to manage her money. But he was spending big behind her back. They eventually separated, but the situation made her feel even more shame. She sought therapy to help her through it.

IRINA: Like I said, I don’t regret any decisions that I’ve made. I think I’ve just accepted that there were moments in my life where I was just doing what I was encouraged to do. And that comes from a good place,from parents that fear the worst for their kid. Um, but lots and lots of therapy, and that is costly. That is a very, very worthy cause, I think spending money on unfortunately, it’s not accessible to many people. And I think the reason I am able to have the privilege to talk about the shame I feel about money is because of that. You know, you have to have the time, the energy to have worked through this to be able to speak about this and not think about the consequences. Yeah, it’s definitely an investment that I’ve made, and I’ve had to over time feel comfortable feeling worthy of the expense in itself.

ROB: Irina also has ADHD, attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. She said on top of the shame many people feel around having the disorder in the first place, being neurodivergent can make money management even more difficult. She recalled a time where she went to Dollarama for a couple things, and wound up spending $100.

IRINA: A lot of the time when I go shopping for something, it’s when my mood is impacted in a way where you know, I feel really anxious or stressed, it’s a distraction. And I’m going there, hoping to get that immediate dopamine hit, and bring home, you know, stationery supplies that will help me organize those receipts or organize my space. And so it’s a small change. But then you think, oh, there’s like this huge setback financially, where I’ve just spent 100 bucks on a bunch of binders or sheet protectors or things that are obviously not going to result in any change unless you actually use the tool. It’s very momentary and definitely results in feeling some kind of rush or dopamine hit, but it doesn’t mean that it’s going to result in a positive long term change. I made the most irresponsible decision, I felt, earlier this year with investing into coaching. And I felt so, so much shame. I cannot put into words how much shame I felt. I was devastated. I was embarrassed. I did not want to tell anybody that I had paid for this ADHD coaching program. And I had listened to the podcast for years and thought, There’s no way I’m going to pay 1000s of dollars to join a coaching group. And then I did. I spent, at least $2,000, for sure, it would have been like about $2,500.

ROB: Irina realized the course wasn’t for her and managed to get her money back. For her, talking about money helps alleviate the shame.

IRINA: I think that the first step to moving forward is recognizing that I am worth spending money on. I think the advice that I would give is to talk about it. I think that’s the first step to doing something about it. The only way you can get support to move forward is by talking to someone, it doesn’t have to be in a public way. But a friend that you trust, someone who can create a safe space for you to talk about these things. They may not be an expert, but they can help make a connection. If you have people to talk to you about these experiences, you can get through it. So it comes back to what I had said before being able to talk about the shame because it doesn’t have to be so lonely.

ROB: We tend in personal finance to talk about what success looks like - saving lots, keeping debt under control and making big investment returns. It’s normal to feel shame if you’re not living up to these standards. Even personal finance columnists feel it from time to time. I hope this episode helps people feel more comfortable with themselves and willing to ask for help. . Roma, what are your takeaways from these conversations?

ROMA:

  • Money shaming is rampant and a major contributor to financial and life stress. If you are doing the shaming, stop. If you are feeling embarrassed about your finances, know that you are not alone.
  • Talking openly about money is the first step. Learning about it is the second. If you are intimidated, start by making small changes. Even diverting a few hundred dollars into a savings account each month can make a difference.
  • Remember that your finances do not have to be perfect. It’s ok to make some mistakes. Creating a secure financial future is a journey - one that’s never too late to start.

ROB: Thank you for listening to Stress Test. This show was produced by Kyle Fulton, Emily Jackson and Zahra Khozema. Our executive producer is Kiran Rana. Thanks to Chantel Chapman and Irina for joining us.

ROMA: You can find Stress Test wherever you listen to podcasts. If you liked this episode, please give us a five-star rating and share it with your friends.

ROB: Next up on Stress Test: the cost of dating. With inflation on the rise, single people are more likely to grab a coffee than an alcoholic beverage. We talk about the cost of swiping right as we settle in for another long winter.

ROMA: Until then, find us at the Globe and Mail dot com. Thanks for listening.

Follow related authors and topics

Authors and topics you follow will be added to your personal news feed in Following.

Interact with The Globe